The Sagan Thread

macadam

He is a crowd pleaser, and a fun guy something every sport needs.

daragh_

macadam wrote: »

He is a crowd pleaser, and a fun guy something every sport needs.

What sport needs 'fun guys' who think publicly groping and harassing women is amusing?

Hail 2 Da Thief

It's sexual assault, plain & simple!

If I groped a female colleague liked that I'd be fired & rightly so!

doozerie

Darkglasses wrote: »

Well I'd have called it six of one, half dozen of the other. I think Sagan dives in first and she's cool with it.

I hadn't seen that video, just the still photo, but from the video it's certainly clear that he instigated it. You may interpret her reaction as being cool with it, personally I see her as being so taken by surprise that she doesn't know how to react and being surrounded by a crowd that seems to find it amusing must make it even more difficult for her. "Celebrities" have been getting away with overstepping the bounds of what is morally acceptable probably for as long as they have existed, and many people just laugh it off as being a moment of madness (or worse, some form of acceptable entertainment from someone who is "a character"), but take away the celebrity aspect of it all and what you have is sexual assault, as already mentioned. That video puts Sagan in a very bad light, in my view, and the podium photo serves to compound the likelihood that he is an idiot, he just happens to be an idiot that excels at riding a bike. Pity, I like his riding style, it's a shame that his personality is proving quite repulsive to me.

The suggestion in some of the posts that he is a "crowd pleaser" and that this makes such behaviour okay is nonsense. There also seems to be an implication that the woman he groped was somehow okay with it, which I find bizarre. She was there to do a job (which is to look good to appeal to the spectators/public, which is a dubious aspect of podium celebrations to start with), and she was doing her job. Sagan took an opportunity to grope her, leaving her with the choice of either trying to brush it off and get on with her job, or risk the anger of her employers by making what would become a very public issue of it on camera. It's not unlike the stereotypical scenario of the boss/manager taking an opportunity to perve over, and demean, someone in a less powerful role such as his secretary since he knows that she might feel unable to do anything about it in the context of the work environment. I thought it was generally accepted that as a society we'd moved on from that offensive and predatory mindset, but obviously we have a long way to go yet.

longshanks

The next time Sagan makes it to the podium, if one of the podium girls pinches his ass will people still be in such a rush to get offended?

MPFG

longshanks wrote: »

The next time Sagan makes it to the podium, if one of the podium girls pinches his ass will people still be in such a rush to get offended?

Yes ...because its unacceptable to grope someone , anyone, especially in the work place where status comes in to play.....

I had some terrible incidents in my teens and twenties where i was harrassed and groped by men...and many women do.....
Ok some ...a few don't mind but most women hate it and find it very demeaning and disresptful. (and sometimes frightening) ....you'd be surprised how many women have to put up with this kind of thing....
I guess you have to ask yourself would you like your daughter, mother , wife, girlfriend or sister, etc to have to put up with being groped in their place of work.....(or anywhere)

I am not interested in a Sagan witch hunt ..I will take it like alot of young men especially from an 'insular' culture they are not aware that there are lines that should not be crossed......If he accepts this and it does not happen again then hopefully it can be a lesson for many who think its all a bit of a laugh

el tel

He's a wee horn-ball. He'll get a bitch slapping from someone sooner or later.

Dermot Illogical

I know it's wrong, but I still can't look at the pic without smiling.

dvntie

Here's a blog posted by Shane stokes on twitter earlier http://www.150wattsofawesome.blogspot.ie/2013/04/the-butt-pinch-seen-round-world.html?m=1

DirkVoodoo

Can we ban Diet Coke commercials too? I mean seriously, so far I have seen a window cleaner, an elevator repairman and now a gardener all being sexually harassed by gangs of women deliberately agitating cans of Diet Coke so that the poor (probably minimum wage workers) are forced to strip their clothes off and bare their perfect torsos.

I know what Peter did was wrong, but has anyone thought to ask the Podium Girls if they are actually that miserable doing what they do?

MPFG

I am all for banning Diet Coke commercials (and Diet Coke for that matter)

They are very annoying to be honest with you.....

Macha

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Can we ban Diet Coke commercials too? I mean seriously, so far I have seen a window cleaner, an elevator repairman and now a gardener all being sexually harassed by gangs of women deliberately agitating cans of Diet Coke so that the poor (probably minimum wage workers) are forced to strip their clothes off and bare their perfect torsos.

I know what Peter did was wrong, but has anyone thought to ask the Podium Girls if they are actually that miserable doing what they do?

What they do? Well that's the whole point, isn't it? It isn't in their job description to be publicly groped, no matter how skimpy their clothes. That's the enormous red line Sagan, and seemingly others, can't see.

DirkVoodoo

Macha wrote: »

What they do? Well that's the whole point, isn't it? It isn't in their job description to be publicly groped, no matter how skimpy their clothes. That's the enormous red line Sagan, and seemingly others, can't see.

No, everyone does see it, but it's being used now as a reason to scrap podium girls altogether. Sure, they probably won't be missed and they can take the stupid stuffed toys with them and just have an F1 style podium.

But it's part of the tradition.

I don't think anyone, including Sagan afterwards, thought it was ok. He is a young guy at the top of his sport, it was a stupid thing to do and hopefully Cannondale take the right course of action. But all this talk of cycling being stuck in the dark ages is a bit over the top for me.

Tobyglen

Some internet whoppers here. Christ he's only have a laugh, calm down. I get molested by groups of old women on hen parties everytime I go out, shur how bad!

Robroy36

I have to say I didn't find Sagan's action on the podium even slightly offensive, in fact I found them hilarious. I often wonder why more pro cyclists don't do it. Now I know I will be flamed to hell for posting this, but it what I and plenty of others think. I applaud Sagan and all his heroic antics.

Robroy36

doozerie wrote: »

I find it no less offensive

You have no right to be offended, you were not involved.

fixie fox

Hail 2 Da Thief wrote: »

It's sexual assault, plain & simple!

If I groped a female colleague liked that I'd be fired & rightly so!

I agree, but your female colleagues don't make a living from sticking their boobs and bums out and kissing men they don't know in public.
So, Sagan just has to learn the 'please look and enjoy but no feel' etiquette.

MPFG

Eurosport are saying Sagan is like a young Sean Kelly

Kelly ever pinch a podium girl ???

Dermot Illogical

MPFG wrote: »

Eurosport are saying Sagan is like a young Sean Kelly

Kelly ever pinch a podium girl ???

Pitchforks! Get your pitchforks! Last of the pitchforks two for twenty!

Captain Havoc

MPFG wrote: »

Eurosport are saying Sagan is like a young Sean Kelly

Kelly ever pinch a podium girl ???

Wasn't Kelly's daughter a podium girl for the Rás?

fixie fox

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Wasn't Kelly's daughter a podium girl for the Rás?

Maybe we should let Kelly's daughter out of it?

MPFG

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Pitchforks! Get your pitchforks! Last of the pitchforks two for twenty!

How is asking if Kelly ever pinched apodium girl got anything to do with pitch forks....

Or mayeb you are just livign up to your name ..........Illogical

ROK ON

Was Sagan behaviour unacceptable - yes.
Should he be publicily disciplined by his team - yes.
Should he apologise in person to the girl in question yes.

Should everyone else calm down - yes.
What he did was simply unacceptable - but to use the term 'rapey' - outrageous.

I have two daughters. If either of them decided that they wanted to be a podium girl, I would be disappointed. If women do not want to objectified, then do not accept demeaning and objectifying roles.

(Just for the PC brigade on this forum - the proceeding line does not in any way mean that I endorse or condone anyone making unwanted advances in any way to someone dumb enough to put themselves in a role where they are objectified).
There are people on this forum would cross the road to take offence at every possible opportunity - Christ some even have a thread about it.:rolleyes:

Dermot Illogical

MPFG wrote: »

How is asking if Kelly ever pinched apodium girl got anything to do with pitch forks....

Or mayeb you are just livign up to your name ..........Illogical

Sagan can no longer be compared to Kelly by Eurosport because he touched a woman's ass? Now that's illogical.

Unless they were comparing decorum upon podia, in which case I stand corrected.

MPFG

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Sagan can no longer be compared to Kelly by Eurosport because he touched a woman's ass? Now that's illogical.

Unless they were comparing decorum upon podia, in which case I stand corrected.

Who said Sagan cannot be compared to Kelly cos he pinched a podium girl ...NOT ME

Of course they were comparign cycling ability....
I just asked did Kelly ever pinch a podium girl....who knows maybe they have more thna one thing in common !

Dermot Illogical

MPFG wrote: »

Who said Sagan cannot be compared to Kelly cos he pinched a podium girl ...NOT ME

Of course they were comparign cycling ability....
I just asked did Kelly ever pinch a podium girl....who knows maybe they have more thna one thing in common !

It's possibly one of Kelly's few regrets. Could have been watching yesterday thinking "Jaysus! Why didn't I think of that when I had the chance!!"

MPFG

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

It's possibly one of Kelly's few regrets. Could have been watching yesterday thinking "Jaysus! Why didn't I think of that when I had the chance!!"

You are probably right .....he could have made the CAL-CU-LA-TION

Diarmuid

Tobyglen wrote: »

Some internet whoppers here. Christ he's only have a laugh, calm down. I get molested by groups of old women on hen parties everytime I go out, shur how bad!

And I'm sure you'd have no problem by your wife/gf/daughter getting molested by groups of old men on stag parties everytime they go out. How bad!

Donelson

you got to love little old ireland! where else would people even care!

Darkglasses

Donelson wrote: »

you got to love little old ireland! where else would people even care!

...Why do you think only Ireland cares?

Donelson

Darkglasses wrote: »

...Why do you think only Ireland cares?

I'm happy this thread is here, it's a happy reminder of how little we in Ireland have to worry about.

ps I don't limit this to just Ireland.

happytramp

Donelson wrote: »

ps I don't limit this to just Ireland.

I'm confused. You asked where else apart from Ireland would people even care?

Icyseanfitz

well he just put up a video apology onto his facebook page, just a moment of madness imo

doozerie

Robroy36 wrote: »

You have no right to be offended, you were not involved.

And yet you feel entitled to find Sagan's antics hilarious, even though you were not involved:

Robroy36 wrote:

I have to say I didn't find Sagan's action on the podium even slightly offensive, in fact I found them hilarious. I often wonder why more pro cyclists don't do it. Now I know I will be flamed to hell for posting this, but it what I and plenty of others think. I applaud Sagan and all his heroic antics.

...this is the point where your reasoning self-destructs in a blaze of irony, incidentally.

As for Sagan's antics being "heroic", I think you need new heroes, and perhaps a better dictionary.

Darkglasses

I know it's a repost, but look at this picture again. Maybe, just maybe, this isn't a guy who takes everything 100% seriously. I think everyone can appreciate that he's made a public apology. Can we put this matter to bed now maybe?

doozerie

fixie fox wrote:

I agree, but your female colleagues don't make a living from sticking their boobs and bums out and kissing men they don't know in public.

Are you even vaguely aware of how much that resembles the "she deserved it, look at what she was wearing" argument? I find your post quite shocking, I'd have to say, along with other posts in this thread that present a similar attitude. That attitude is entirely the reason why the "podium girl" aspect of celebrations should be done away with, not because of what Sagan did but because of the attitude towards the women involved that his actions represent.

fixie fox wrote:

So, Sagan just has to learn the 'please look and enjoy but no feel' etiquette.

Yes, for a start that "etiquette" as you call it is one of the things that distinguishes sexual offenders from regular members of society.

Arthurdaly

This is getting lots of press, he should know better and in fairness stinks of an amateur attitude! Ronnie O Sullivan has done similar in recent years and done himself no favours.

Can't understand why a person would do that on a podium at prestigious race where the cameras are flashing, is he a bit simple?!

doozerie

ROK ON wrote:

Was Sagan behaviour unacceptable - yes.
Should he be publicily disciplined by his team - yes.
Should he apologise in person to the girl in question yes.

Should everyone else calm down - yes.
What he did was simply unacceptable - but to use the term 'rapey' - outrageous.

I have two daughters. If either of them decided that they wanted to be a podium girl, I would be disappointed. If women do not want to objectified, then do not accept demeaning and objectifying roles.

(Just for the PC brigade on this forum - the proceeding line does not in any way mean that I endorse or condone anyone making unwanted advances in any way to someone dumb enough to put themselves in a role where they are objectified).
There are people on this forum would cross the road to take offence at every possible opportunity - Christ some even have a thread about it.

Ha, you call for everyone to calm down as if the uproar is based entirely on what Sagan did (it's not, incidentally, the uproar is about the attitude he represents in doing it) and then go on to basically declare that the women acting as podium girls are filling "demeaning and objectifying roles" and therefore they are themselves somehow responsible for being objectified, further adding that they are "dumb enough" to put themselves in that role. Your summing up of the counter arguments as being entirely based on people trying to be "PC" (what does that even mean?) is a very poor attempt at trying to convey nonsense and hoping that no-one will call you up on it.

Personally, when I see podium girls I see women who are doing a job. I expect it's a rotten job, you are there as eye candy, the pay is probably crap and instead of being treated just like any other person doing a job, you get casually derided and dismissed as dumb, as so ably demonstrated by yourself. I have one daughter myself, and I'd like to see her growing up in a society which offers better job opportunities for women, and doesn't blame them when they take on the relatively limited roles that a largely male-dominated society creates for them and then belittles them for it too. You might consider that aim "PC", or something, I consider it working towards a fairer society.

So say that we all just stop posting on this thread entirely, and choose to forget the debate that has arisen, what do you suggest we then do? Should we go back to moaning about how we, as cyclists, are regularly derided and demeaned by motorist lobbies and the likes of the RSA because we are dumb enough to ride bikes on the roads? Could you really handle the irony?

Donelson

happytramp wrote: »

I'm confused. You asked where else apart from Ireland would people even care?

because I wish people would care more about the war and starvation, but I don't want to de-rail this with silly stuff.

Arthurdaly

Darkglasses wrote: »

I know it's a repost, but look at this picture again. Maybe, just maybe, this isn't a guy who takes everything 100% seriously. I think everyone can appreciate that he's made a public apology. Can we put this matter to bed now maybe?

Seriously? Ride one these and its ok to grope woman in public?

Darkglasses

Arthurdaly wrote: »

Seriously? Ride one these and its ok to grope woman in public?

Seriously? That's not what I said and not what I think.

Ugh, I'm out of this thread.

joe50

Arthurdaly wrote: »

Seriously? Ride one these and its ok to grope woman in public?

yes, that's absolutely the sentiment he's trying to get across :rolleyes:

sagan is clearly an idiot, but as has been pointed out elsewhere, you'd be better served trying to increase the coverage of women's cycling in general rather than trying to carry on with a sagan witch-hunt..

he's apologized, what more do you want? for him to be thrown out of the sport?

ericzeking

One wonders what the reaction would be if the podium girl had given Sagan a congratulatory pat on the bottom..........

Icyseanfitz

jesus he has made a public apology to the girl and anyone that got offended, he cant do much else, he is a great cyclist that did something on the spur of the moment that was stupid, who hasnt made some bad decisions in their lives :rolleyes:

IM0

looks like a photoshopped pic anyway, I mean look how easy it was to change it to spartacus' cock!

Icyseanfitz

buffalo

Man crush over.

I was shocked the first time a female friend told me how often she got her arse pinched while working as a waitress. I got less and less shocked as I heard the same from various friends in various jobs interacting with members of the public, and indeed, from female cycling friends, who've had their arses grabbed during races.

The idea that any man or woman has any right to touch any other man or woman's arse at any point without a prior intimate relationship/express permission is simply Neanderthal.

I don't see how the job description comes into it - even strip clubs have strict "no touching" rules.

Dermot Illogical

buffalo wrote: »

even strip clubs have strict "no touching" rules.

You have no idea how shocked I was to find that out.

Brad768

At this point I'd like to reference back to the picture on page 2...

doozerie

ericzeking wrote: »

One wonders what the reaction would be if the podium girl had given Sagan a congratulatory pat on the bottom..........

Maybe one should read the thread.