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Happy Dawkins Day!

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    #122
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Ah Dawkins, the Jesus of atheism. I don't get why atheists need to have a figurehead to look up to. Sounds like a very Catholic thing to do. Ask him yourself if you ever get the chance if he is atheist, you'll probably be surprised by his answer...
    Kid - if you don't have anything useful to add to the conversation, then go post somewhere else.


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    #123
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    He said it himself this time last year, look it up

    How about you provide a link?


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    #124
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,160 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    How about you provide a link?
    I think Kidchameleon is referring to an exchange in the Richard Dawkins/Rowan Williams dialogue that took place at Oxford University last year under the moderatorship of Anthony Kenny. A podcast of the discussion is here: http://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/nature-human-beings-and-question-their-ultimate-origin-audio

    The discussion includes this exchange (emphasis added):
    Williams: “You I think, Richard, believe you have a disproof of god.”
    Dawkins: No, I don’t! you were wrong when you said that. I constructed in The God Delusion a 7-point scale, of which ’1′ was, ‘I know god exists’, ’7′ was ‘I know god doesn’t exist’ and I called myself a ’6′.
    Williams: “Why don’t you call yourself an agnostic then?”
    Dawkins: “I do.     But I think it’s-”
    Williams: “You are described as the world’s most famous atheist-”
    Dawkins, “Well not by me.     Um..
    [laughter]
    Williams: “Can I ask you to spell out your argument, your Boeing-”
    Dawkins: “I’m a 6.9.”
    [laughter]
    Williams: “But you have your Boeing 747 argument-”
    Dawkins: “Yes, I mean-”
    Williams: “-to show that this tiny probability-”
    Dawkins: “I believe that when you talk about agnosticism, It’s very important to make a distinction between ‘I don’t know whether X is true or not, therefore it’s 50-50 likely or unlikely’ and that’s the kind of agnostic which I don’t-which I’m definitely not. I think one can place estimates of probability on these things and I think the probability of any supernatural creator existing is very very low. So I’m-let’s say I’m a 6.9. That still doesn’t mean that I’m absolutely confident, that I absolutely know – because I don’t.”

    Consideration of whether this justifies Kidchameleon's claim is an exercise left for the student.


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    #125
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Dawkins: No, I don’t! you were wrong when you said that. I constructed in The God Delusion a 7-point scale, of which ’1′ was, ‘I know god exists’, ’7′ was ‘I know god doesn’t exist’ and I called myself a ’6′.
    Williams: “Why don’t you call yourself an agnostic then?”
    Dawkins: “I do.     But I think it’s-”
    Williams: “You are described as the world’s most famous atheist-”
    Dawkins, “Well not by me.
    He's said that on many previous occasions too. He even names TGD's Chapter Four "Why There Almost Certainly Is No God", rather than "There Is No God".


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    #126
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,160 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yes. I don't think there's anything new here. Dawkins is often called an atheist, and doesn't usually object, and in general is happy to be viewed as promoting atheism, but when he does self-describe it's as an agnostic. The two terms can of course overlap.


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    #127
    aidan24326
    Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Kidchameleon, I think it's clear he was disputing the fact that he's the world's most famous atheist rather than that he's an atheist. He doesn't believe in a supernatural god => he is an atheist. Case closed on that one.

    Personally I think Dawkins gets a raw deal a lot of the time. I can't think of another scientist/writer/populariser who gets misquoted and misrepresented so often. Those who can't refute his arguments seek to bastardise them instead.

    Whether you like him or not or whether you agree with his take on organsied religion he has done much to open up debate and discourse on a subject that was deemed nigh on untouchable not too long ago.


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    #128
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    It does annoy me though that people look up to him as some kind of leader. He's like the pope to some atheists. You would think they would try to distance themselves from the whole spiritual leader lark


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    #129
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    It does annoy me though that people look up to him as some kind of leader. He's like the pope to some atheists.
    Who's he like a pope to? Ten names would be a good start.

    This accusation is slung about quite often and frankly, while I don't recall meeting any atheists who think he's "like a pope", I have met quite a few who think he's a plonker.


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    #130
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    The day Richard Dawkins starts cross-dressing and can be shown to have covered up child abuse across the world, I'll consider likening him to a pope.


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    #131
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,160 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    Who's he like a pope to? Ten names would be a good start.

    This accusation is slung about quite often and frankly, while I don't recall meeting any atheists who think he's "like a pope", I have met quite a few who think he's a plonker.
    Indeed. But, in fairness, quite a number of believers think the pope is a plonker, too!


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    #132
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    It does annoy me though that people look up to him as some kind of leader. He's like the pope to some atheists. You would think they would try to distance themselves from the whole spiritual leader lark
    People look up to other people all the time. It's not a spiritual thing, it's a respect thing. He's a well known advocate of science and reason.

    Your use of the words 'spiritual' and 'Pope' is simply you failing to separate the relationship between Dawkins and those who respect his work, from the terminology common to topics he often addresses. It's just wordplay, usually employed by Christians, in a curious effort to make out that non-believers are as dependent on deities as they are.

    When fantasy fans talk highly about George RR Martin, he never gets called the Pope of fantasy. Nor is he their spiritual leader.


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    #133
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Dades wrote: »
    in a curious effort to make out that non-believers are as dependent on deities as they are.

    It's a bit odd and maybe reflects on how insecure they are in their own beliefs.

    "Sure Atheists are just as stupid as religious people.... wait... hang on..."


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    #134
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Dades wrote: »
    When fantasy fans talk highly about George RR Martin, he never gets called the Pope of fantasy. Nor is he their spiritual leader.

    He'd get a better reception if he took his thumb out of his arse and finished the bloody series already.


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    #135
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,126 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Ah Dawkins, the Jesus of atheism. I don't get why atheists need to have a figurehead to look up to.

    Actually it's the religionists who need a 'figurehead' of atheism to beat up on.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #136
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I'd be more for idolising Stephen Fry tbh. Probably more to do with his performance in Jeeves & Wooster than his lack of belief in god though, so I dunno if that counts.


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    #137
    aidan24326
    Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    It does annoy me though that people look up to him as some kind of leader. He's like the pope to some atheists. You would think they would try to distance themselves from the whole spiritual leader lark

    All you're doing here is building a strawman. He is not revered as some sort of pope and in fact you'll find that opinion on him is greatly divided even around these parts.

    His credentials as a communicator and populariser of science and especially of evolutionary biology are not in question but his approach to all things religion is very much debatable and you'll find a good few posters here who disagree with his approach. So to say that he is some kind of atheistic 'pope' is nonsense.

    I don't agree with everything he says but I agree with him in principle that religions and religious beliefs were given too much undeserved respect for far too long and that maybe it's time we started asking those awkward questions that would have been mainly off-limits in previous generations.


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    #138
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    aidan24326 wrote: »

    His credentials as a communicator and populariser of science and especially of evolutionary biology are not in question

    I'd even go as far as to say that is debatable. I don't agree with them, but some people have an aversion to him because he looks and sounds like a stuffy old git (not 'down wiz da yoof' enough!) and don't listen to him because of it.


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    #139
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Galvasean wrote: »
    I'd even go as far as to say that is debatable. I don't agree with them, but some people have an aversion to him because he looks and sounds like a stuffy old git (not 'down wiz da yoof' enough!) and don't listen to him because of it.


    ...apparently he lived in San Francisco in the late 60's and went on anti-war rallies. Which is just hard to see in my head, tbh.


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