AGSI wants Uzi submachine guns reissued

msg11

This seems to be bubbling along in the media the last few days. Might aswell throw it up around here.

AGSI wants Uzi submachine guns reissued



Garda sergeants and inspectors have voted to seek to have the Uzi submachine gun, which was withdrawn, immediately reissued to detectives.

A member of the AGSI national executive claimed that the death of detective Garda Adrian Donohoe might have been prevented if he had been armed with the weapon.

Delegates at the association's annual conference have also rejected any further reductions in their pay and allowances and agreed to take action to oppose the cuts.

Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan is due to address the conference this afternoon.

More than a third of the motions at the association's annual conference oppose further cuts to pay and allowances or changes in their working conditions.

This morning all were voted through as the association now formulates its strategy to counteract Government policy.

However, policing issues are also on the agenda as delegates passed a motion calling on Commissioner Callinan to immediately re-issue the Uzi submachine gun to detectives, questioning the risk assessment surrounding the decision

A senior member of the executive, Inspector Walter Kilcullen, claimed that detective Garda Donohoe might still be alive today if the Uzi submachine gun had not been withdrawn.

The sergeants and inspectors agreed that the weapon acts as a deterrent because criminals and terrorists are afraid of it and the submachine gun is far more effective than the present standard issue.

goldie fish

They should not have been removed from service until a replacement was available. Best international practice has demonstrated a need for something larger than a sidearm.

emmet the rover

sorry if its a stupid question or if its sensitive info but i was wondering why they were withdrawn in the first place? saw this on 6 1 news on rte 1

pa990

emmet the rover wrote: »

sorry if its a stupid question or if its sensitive info but i was wondering why they were withdrawn in the first place? saw this on 6 1 news on rte 1

cost saving measure..

regular training needs to be given to use each type of weapon, that costs money.

Beano

Did they not buy the MP7?

donvito99

Is it just me or is the Guard on the right Setanta Ó Áilpín?

source

Beano wrote: »

Did they not buy the MP7?

Only for the RSU.

goldie fish

donvito99 wrote: »

Is it just me or is the Guard on the right Setanta Ó Áilpín?

I thought it was Sean Og.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Why not just issue more MP7s?

In my ignorance I would assume the MP7 is the better gun as it's more modern.

It's users include the SAS, GIGN (France), GSG9 (Germany) and DEVGRU (Seal Team Six) so it must be a decent weapon.

goldie fish

Well, the withdrawal of the UZI was a cost saving decision. Can you explain how they would introduce, and procure a new firearm to replace one withdrawn as a cost saving measure?

The effectiveness of the MP7, compared to the 1950s technology UZI is without question.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Ah well. That's a bit unfortunate then. If the money isn't available there doesn't appear to be much scope to improve things.

Remmy

I'm guessing not but is there anything that would fulfil the same function without the associated training costs?

iceage

Remmy 870 or the Spas12. Give em what ever they want, time to put some of the scum back in their box.

Witcher

You could give them anything they want but they have to be allowed use them without the public being up in arms. ERU shot two lads in Lusk a few years ago and there was murder in the papers about it..ya can't win with people in this country:pac:

iceage

iceage wrote: »

Remmy 870 or the Spas12. Give em what ever they want, time to put some of the scum back in their box.

A wooden one six foot under? I prefer to see the scum in a box with a bed & a locked door, with no means of escape. It's what separates us from the other kind of scum, the one that thinks killing is an answer in a case other than the defence of life. You Do Not F*ck Around With Guns. You F*ck Around With Guns, Expect Death & Its Consequences.

But do, yes, give the guards what the tactics dictate they need.

I wonder what people's opinions are of the P90? Would that be a Ferrari for a Toyota's job?

12gauge dave

The least they can give them is a semi auto shotgun and some 00buck

Potential-Monke

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder what people's opinions are of the P90? Would that be a Ferrari for a Toyota's job?

Oh god i'd love a P90! Such a simple weapon, easy to use and little kick. But if they removed Uzi's for cost saving measures, they sure as hell ain't going to get P90's! A quick google shows them going for $4500 each. Can't find prices for the MP7, but i would think they'd be cheaper...

Plus, there trainers already in AGS for the MP7, so they could jump right into training, but if they buy the P90 they would require someone from FN to come over and train a bunch for training, which = more money.

goldie fish

MP7 and P90 are in the same class really, unfortunately with different ammo.

IRLConor

Remmy wrote: »

I'm guessing not but is there anything that would fulfil the same function without the associated training costs?

I wouldn't expect so. If anything, the Gardai should probably be getting more training time with the firearms they still have. Shooting a pistol well takes a lot of practice (weekly at least) and from talking to a few members over the years I never got the impression that there's funding available for that kind of practice.

Cutting funding for firearms and/or firearms training will only get someone hurt or killed in the long run. It's not fair to put a Garda in harm's way without both the tools and the training to use them.

FGR

IRLConor wrote: »

Cutting funding for firearms and/or firearms training will only get someone hurt or killed in the long run. It's not fair to put a Garda in harm's way without both the tools and the training to use them.

Such is this country. It will take a disaster for the Government to do something like that. Reaction as opposed to Prevention at it's finest.

the_syco

Deleted User wrote: »

A wooden one six foot under? I prefer to see the scum in a box with a bed & a locked door, with no means of escape.

3 years, and then they're let out?

Deleted User wrote: »

You Do Not F*ck Around With Guns. You F*ck Around With Guns, Expect Death & Its Consequences.

Ever hear the saying "don't bring a knife to a gunfight"? They're not even given a knife.

FGR wrote: »

Such is this country. It will take a disaster for the Government to do something like that. Reaction as opposed to Prevention at it's finest.

Knowing the current setup, they'll use it to cut more funding, somehow.

syklops

the_syco wrote: »

Ever hear the saying "don't bring a knife to a gunfight"? They're not even given a knife.

Very well said.

You always hear the argument, "But if you arm your police, the criminals arm themselves". Look out the window, the criminals are armed. Its easier in Dublin to buy a gun than it is to buy a joint.

donvito99

syklops wrote: »

Very well said.

You always hear the argument, "But if you arm your police, the criminals arm themselves". Look out the window, the criminals are armed. Its easier in Dublin to buy a gun than it is to buy a joint.

That's not exaggerating at all.

discus

donvito99 wrote: »

That's not exaggerating at all.

Nope its true, I tried to buy a joint with a tenner tonight and he gave me my change in P90s and rounds!

Captain Chaos

goldie fish wrote: »

MP7 and P90 are in the same class really, unfortunately with different ammo.

The MP7 and P90 were tested and the FNH P90 lost out on the tender. HK won in a deal at the time that also saw the Defence Forces selecting the HK USP9 as the new sidearm. I reckon HK offered a knock down price because of that.

If they wanted to standardise ammo they would have selected another 9mm SMG like the HK MP5 or UMP9 seeing as the SiG pistols use 9mm ammo like the Uzi.

The PSNI replaced their MP5s with the G36C, that is a serious upgrade in fire power there.

the_syco

(*beer influenced answers)

the_syco wrote: »

3 years, and then they're let out?

Let's shoot the scum them. the streets need a bit more red on them.

the_syco wrote: »

Ever hear the saying "don't bring a knife to a gunfight"? They're not even given a knife.

Let's have every guard with a gun on his hip so. Become a gun state.

the_syco wrote: »

Knowing the current setup, they'll use it to cut more funding, somehow.

Can't argue there.

Markcheese

Were the Uzis gone beyond their useful life ? How much did AGS save by getting rid of them ? Can't have been much in the grand scheme of things, there weren't that many out there really ...

goldie fish

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The MP7 and P90 were tested and the FNH P90 lost out on the tender. HK won in a deal at the time that also saw the Defence Forces selecting the HK USP9 as the new sidearm. I reckon HK offered a knock down price because of that.

If they wanted to standardise ammo they would have selected another 9mm SMG like the HK MP5 or UMP9 seeing as the SiG pistols use 9mm ammo like the Uzi.

The PSNI replaced their MP5s with the G36C, that is a serious upgrade in fire power there.

Standardisation was never an issue, what with the GS having used the 9mm Uzi alongside the .38 S&W all along, while the ERU also used the 5.56 H&K 33E.
In any event, the MP7 or P90 provides a huge increase in punch compared to the 9mm Parabellum. This was why it was first considered. Its a PDW originally designed as sidearms for crews in armoured vehicles. Lots of pistol size ammo, with similar punch to assault rifle ammo, to get you out of trouble.

Zambia

Routine stop ?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0404/379783-jobstown/

A teenager has been arrested in Dublin after gardaí seized a sawn-off shotgun and drugs in Jobstown.
The search took place at around 6.30pm.
The heroin and cannabis herb seized is estimated to have a street value of €200,000.
The teenager is being held at Tallaght Garda Station.

meathstevie

The P90 and the MP7 were designed with pretty much the same basic idea in mind. A compact weapon of similar dimensions as the more common submachine guns but with the capability of penetrating modern body armour without having to resort to a full bore or intermediate high velocity rifle cartridge.

Both fire ammunition that's pretty specific to the weapon. The FN/Browning round is also used in the Browning 5.7 pistol.

As for cost, a price of $4500 was mentioned here for a P90 but I reckon that sort of figure refers to a private sale price in one of the few states of the US where that sort of firearm would be available for civilian ownership. In the case of any state organisation buying weaponry it would be a tender process and if you went to do the research on it you'll find that the actual price per unit will be nowhere near the "retail" price for a single unit.

Locust

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's have every guard with a gun on his hip so. Become a gun state.

If every guard had a handgun on his/her belt - it wouldn't be a 'gun state' it would be a safer state!

Locust

Locust wrote: »

If every guard had a handgun on his/her belt - it wouldn't be a 'gun state' it would be a safer state!

If every *insert group* had a gun on his/her belt, more people would be dead, maimed, or traumatised. Rightly or wrongly.

We have a criminal justice system that administers custodial punishment, not corporal or capital punishment. It's something that defines us as a nation like the flag or the dual language status.

Gun discharges outside of training need to be treated like air accidents. Investigated, publicly reported on, causes found. Every time a weapon is discharged. Every. Single. Time.

Besides, more guns = more chances for stupid people to F*ck Around With Guns/ allow guns to get stolen.

If you do want to get guns on the street in the hands of a group of people, of which you think every single one will carry them & use them properly every single minute of every single day they have them, then it has to be drilled drilled drilled drilled drilled drilled *drilled* into them,

You Do Not,

Do not

Do. Not.

F*ck Around With Guns.

Ever.

Zambia

Deleted User wrote: »

If every *insert group* had a gun on his/her belt, more people would be dead, maimed, or traumatised. Rightly or wrongly.

Correct however if one group decides they want to carry guns, who stops them?

Deleted User wrote: »

We have a criminal justice system that administers custodial punishment, not corporal or capital punishment. It's something that defines us as a nation like the flag or the dual language status.

This has nothing to do with the arming of police unless you want to legislate them to use their firearms to administer on the spot punishments.

"Shoplifting is it? Fair enough I will have to blow your little toe off"

Deleted User wrote: »

Gun discharges outside of training need to be treated like air accidents. Investigated, publicly reported on, causes found. Every time a weapon is discharged. Every. Single. Time.

Are they not?

Deleted User wrote: »

Besides, more guns = more chances for stupid people to F*ck Around With Guns/ allow guns to get stolen.

True but you cant no do something because it might get stolen.

Deleted User wrote: »

If you do want to get guns on the street in the hands of a group of people, of which you think every single one will carry them & use them properly every single minute of every single day they have them, then it has to be drilled drilled drilled drilled drilled drilled *drilled* into them,

So what do you consider proper drilling in Firearms. Bearing in mind the officers do have other things to be doing.

Deleted User wrote: »

You Do Not,

Do not

Do. Not.

F*ck Around With Guns.

Ever.

If you have no means of enforcing this in the non law abiding well then what the point of saying it.

IRLConor

Seaslacker, you don't need to worry about the Gardai being armed making a serious societal change with respect to the number of firearms in general use/circulation.

The are roughly 200,000 firearms currently licensed in the country. If you gave a gun to every Garda you'd increase that by what? 5%?

donvito99

IRLConor wrote: »

Seaslacker, you don't need to worry about the Gardai being armed making a serious societal change with respect to the number of firearms in general use/circulation.

The are roughly 200,000 firearms currently licensed in the country. If you gave a gun to every Garda you'd increase that by what? 5%?

I don't think that's what he's saying. It's the emergence of a flippant approach to guns that he's worried about if all Gardaí were to be armed, not that all criminals would immediately arm themselves.

IRLConor

donvito99 wrote: »

I don't think that's what he's saying. It's the emergence of a flippant approach to guns that he's worried about if all Gardaí were to be armed, not that all criminals would immediately arm themselves.

The point still stands though. There are loads of legally held firearms in the country already and we don't have a flippant approach to them. Why would routinely arming the Gardai make any real difference?

donvito99

IRLConor wrote: »

The point still stands though. There are loads of legally held firearms in the country already and we don't have a flippant approach to them. Why would routinely arming the Gardai make any real difference?

Let's just say that we would have to do our level best in the event of the arming of uniformed Gardaí to avoid recourse to firearms, as seems to be the case in the US, over trivial issues like traffic stops.

bravestar

donvito99 wrote: »

Let's just say that we would have to do our level best in the event of the arming of uniformed Gardaí to avoid recourse to firearms, as seems to be the case in the US, over trivial issues like traffic stops.

Are uniformed gardai somehow incapable of the same standard as the 3000, supposedly, armed members?

Why would it be an issue arming them when there are plenty of armed gardai conducting traffic stops without shooting the country up?

Zambia

donvito99 wrote: »

Let's just say that we would have to do our level best in the event of the arming of uniformed Gardaí to avoid recourse to firearms, as seems to be the case in the US, over trivial issues like traffic stops.

The US is in the position its in now because its people are routinely armed not because its Police are. All over europe police conduct their duties armed.

donvito99

bravestar wrote: »

Are uniformed gardai somehow incapable of the same standard as the 3000, supposedly, armed members?

Why would it be an issue arming them when there are plenty of armed gardai conducting traffic stops without shooting the country up?

Zambia wrote: »

The US is in the position its in now because its people are routinely armed not because its Police are. All over europe police conduct their duties armed.

I agree with SeaSlacker when he says

more guns = more chances for stupid people to F*ck Around With Guns

and that is my position.

bravestar

donvito99 wrote: »

I agree with SeaSlacker when he says



and that is my position.

Ah right, well maybe we should just remove what little firearms AGS has, so there's less chance for people to f*ck around, and issue Care Bears instead so we can snuggle the criminals into remorse.

Since when by the way, do police f*ck around with guns? The whole twirling your revolver around after you shoot a drifter in your town is so Wild West.

goldie fish

Some of you should take a trip to NI where the PSNI carry out the exact same duties as their southern brothers in blue, but while armed at all times.
There has been no issues of note.
It has changed since but when I went through the depot every Garda was trained to a basic level of competency in firearms handling, and use. Qualification was mandatory.

Markcheese

I suppose the logic would be, if you know uniformed Gardai are armed as soon as an armed criminal sees a Garda the criminal is going to shoot first.
A gun on your hip,or an Uzi on your lap doesnt stop bullets..
they may well be a need for a lot more armed support ...

Pappa Charlie

Markcheese wrote: »

I suppose the logic would be, if you know uniformed Gardai are armed as soon as an armed criminal sees a Garda the criminal is going to shoot first.
A gun on your hip,or an Uzi on your lap doesnt stop bullets..
they may well be a need for a lot more armed support ...

Not necessarily, police often have the element of surprise, it's also nice to know that if you are fired at and not hit that you have the ability to return fire and stop them from trying to kill you!

bravestar

Markcheese wrote: »

I suppose the logic would be, if you know uniformed Gardai are armed as soon as an armed criminal sees a Garda the criminal is going to shoot first.
A gun on your hip,or an Uzi on your lap doesnt stop bullets..
they may well be a need for a lot more armed support ...

Armed support are useless when you have rounds flying at you at 1200 feet per sec. Doesn't matter what Volvo of the week their in, they can't do that speed. The only thing that really matters is being able to level the playing field and stop the threat, there and then. Not in 10 minutes time.

bravestar

bravestar wrote: »

Armed support are useless when you have rounds flying at you at 1200 feet per sec. Doesn't matter what Volvo of the week their in, they can't do that speed. The only thing that really matters is being able to level the playing field and stop the threat, there and then. Not in 10 minutes time.

Can you tell me how often this situation occurs in the Irish Republic?

I will say that if it was a case of having ordinary guards getting shot at week in week out then I'd be all for arming them. But we're not there yet. and please God we never will be there. I'd even go as far as to say that it'd be acceptable to arm guards when they're working in certain areas which are of higher risk to them (Moyross type places, based on evidence of actual threat to Guard's life)

But if you're telling me that the guard down in the depths of Ballaghadreen or Oughterard or any ballygoanywhere coming back to station from telling a family their son is dead in an RTA down country or witnessing a document getting signed needs to have a gun on his/her hip "just in case dem dubblin gangland lads come rownd heer hoorin an rapen an killen", I've yet to see the use for it.

I don't see a use for it and I see a danger in it being there unused.

Pappa Charlie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Can you tell me how often this situation occurs in the Irish Republic?

I will say that if it was a case of having ordinary guards getting shot at week in week out then I'd be all for arming them. But we're not there yet. and please God we never will be there. I'd even go as far as to say that it'd be acceptable to arm guards when they're working in certain areas which are of higher risk to them (Moyross type places, based on evidence of actual threat to Guard's life)

But if you're telling me that the guard down in the depths of Ballaghadreen or Oughterard or any ballygoanywhere coming back to station from telling a family their son is dead in an RTA down country or witnessing a document getting signed needs to have a gun on his/her hip "just in case dem dubblin gangland lads come rownd heer hoorin an rapen an killen", I've yet to see the use for it.

I don't see a use for it and I see a danger in it being there unused.

There were two gardai shot dead near ballaghadreen following an armed robbery, these things only happen in Dublin I guess!

That was in 1980.

I wasn't even alive then.

Pappa Charlie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That was in 1980.

I wasn't even alive then.

Bet the sun will rise the same time as you in the morning as well!

Pappa Charlie

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Bet the sun will rise the same time as you in the morning as well!

Eh? Nothing to do with me. I'm saying an incident 30 years ago is no indicator of the need or otherwise of a defence against a similar incident.

If all guards were getting shot at regularly, then by all means arm all of them. They're not. And when they are shot at, there's armed guards trained and ready to deal with the threat.

Pappa Charlie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Eh? Nothing to do with me. I'm saying an incident 30 years ago is no indicator of the need or otherwise of a defence against a similar incident.

If all guards were getting shot at regularly, then by all means arm all of them. They're not. And when they are, there's armed guards trained and ready to deal with the threat.

How many garda deaths would have to happen before you would consider it?

The PSNI are armed and they don't have too many getting murdered unless you want to go back to the 80's but then again you were not born so it doesn't count!