Why does childcare cost so much in Ireland?

Sand Wedge

I was reading the below article and it does astonish me how much it costs in Ireland for childcare especially in Dublin where it can cost up to €1,000 per month per child. There has to be a more cost effective way of providing childcare.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/childcare-costs-three-months-of-average-annual-wage-589219.html

I know some of the costs are because of staffing levels with:
Children under age of one requiring a staff to child ratio of 1-3
Aged 1-2, ratio of 1-5
Aged 2-3, ratio of 1-6
Aged 3-6, ratio of 1-8

Are these providers making huge profits? Should the state get invoved in this sector and provide childcare facilities where they can operate on a break even basis?

What are your thoughts and opinions?

Anyone

Sand Wedge wrote: »

I was reading the below article and it does astonish me how much it costs in Ireland for childcare especially in Dublin where it can cost up to €1,000 per month per child. There has to be a more cost effective way of providing childcare.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/childcare-costs-three-months-of-average-annual-wage-589219.html

I know some of the costs are because of staffing levels with:
Children under age of one requiring a staff to child ratio of 1-3
Aged 1-2, ratio of 1-5
Aged 2-3, ratio of 1-6
Aged 3-6, ratio of 1-8

Are these providers making huge profits? Should the state get invoved in this sector and provide childcare facilities where they can operate on a break even basis?

What are your thoughts and opinions?

I think you took the highest possible figure instead of the average of €162 per week.

Childcare bubble.

Hardonraging

Taking care of somebody's spoilt little angel is no easy task, it's like you can just put them in a room and head off for a smoke and stick the head in ever 10 mins..

pabloh999

It is expensive on a monthly basis, but when you break it down-
900euro p.m / 20 days
= 45euro per day.

900-1000 euro a month is alot to spend and im sure someone is making money from it.
But average of 45e to pay someone to mind your child for a full day doesnt seem like a huge amount

Augmerson

Sand Wedge wrote: »

Should the state get invoved in this sector and provide childcare facilities where they can operate on a break even basis?

No, they'd make a ****ing balls of it.

Addle

A childminder in my locality charges about €65 per week and supplies food. That seems to be the going rate here.
She minds more than one child.
She's tied to her house for 13 hours a day, twice a week.
She does a great job.
I think she should charge a lot more.

Sand Wedge

Addle wrote: »

A childminder in my locality charges about €65 per week and supplies food. That seems to be the going rate here.
She minds more than one child.
She's tied to her house for 13 hours a day, twice a week.
She does a great job.
I think she should charge a lot more.

That does seem like very good value. What locality is that in.

I suppose my query is more Dublin related then as most people I know are paying a minimum of a €1,000 per month. That is a lot to pay out of your after tax salary.

Kylo Ren

You can replace 'childcare' and put nearly anything you can think of and it will still hold true.

We're an expensive little island.

Tombo2001

Hardonraging wrote: »

Taking care of somebody's spoilt little angel is no easy task, it's like you can just put them in a room and head off for a smoke and stick the head in ever 10 mins..

I know our Childminder manages to get her shopping done, cook the dinner, do all her housework, visit her own (adult) children while minding our kids.

Its not a tough gig.

Addle

Sand Wedge wrote: »

What locality is that in.

The West.

Tombo2001

Keno 92 wrote: »

You can replace 'childcare' and put nearly anything you can think of and it will still hold true.

We're an expensive little island.

Good point......what is Ireland cheap for.....that would be an interesting conversation.

I remember when I was a kid my mother used to go on about people flying in from Iceland to do their shopping in Dunnes.

Knasher

A substantial proportion of that money will be spent on insurance. After that there is a lot of regulation that needs to be complied with, which is usually pretty expensive. If they could avoid all that then they would be a lot cheaper, but for some reason parents are really protective of their kids and demand high standards, and high standards are expensive.

wmpdd3

I can bearly afford my creche and have had to cut it down to a bear minimum, but you can't beat it for value for 2 babies.

I wouldnt do their job for double their pay!

Like all business, they have break even points and profit points. I can't see how the baby rooms can be anything other than loss making. (babies 6 month plus)

pabloh999

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its not a tough gig.

You serious? Minding kid(s) is not a tough gig?
Do you have any young children?

ejmaztec

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I can bearly afford my creche and have had to cut it down to a bear minimum, but you can't beat it for value for 2 babies.

I wouldnt do their job for double their pay!

Like all business, they have break even points and profit points. I can't see how the baby rooms can be anything other than loss making. (babies 6 month plus)

It must be a nightmare when you get home and find you've picked up the wrong kids.

seamus

Insurance and rent are the two big killers for creches. Staff wages are a big cost but in the main creche staff aren't that well paid.

Sand Wedge

seamus wrote: »

Insurance and rent are the two big killers for creches. Staff wages are a big cost but in the main creche staff aren't that well paid.

Anyone got an idea of what insurance costs would be?

Fromthetrees

pabloh999 wrote: »

You serious? Minding kid(s) is not a tough gig?
Do you have any young children?

It is a tough gig but if you are an individual childminder it can be a nice little job.

If a mother has a kid of her own to mind anyway and takes on the responsibility to mind two or three other kids then it can be pretty profitable.

This mother would be a stay at home mother so gets to do all her housework and that anyway all the while making a few hundred Euro extra per week for herself.

hfallada

I suppose regulated places are new and there is little competition at the moment. Plus insurance for it must be huge.

I know in Germany the catholic church provides free child care if you pay the church tax which is 10% of you income. Which seems cheap enough. But I suppose the Germans don't have large families like the irish

Anyone

hfallada wrote: »

I suppose regulated places are new and there is little competition at the moment. Plus insurance for it must be huge.

I know in Germany the catholic church provides free child care if you pay the church tax which is 10% of you income. Which seems cheap enough. But I suppose the Germans don't have large families like the irish

I'd like to see that in Ireland purely for the thread it would generate in AH.

Three Seasons

I pay 150 per week for my 2 year old for 3 days a week. Luckily the grandparents help out on other days.

All in all I do feel it's worth it as she gets education as well as the chance to improve her social skills.

ejmaztec

Anyone wrote: »

I'd like to see that in Ireland purely for the thread it would generate in AH.

No doubt it will kick off shortly anyway.:eek:

shedweller

Augmerson wrote: »

No, they'd make a ****ing balls of it.

Yet it can be done in other countries. Lots of things can be done in other countries, that cannot be done here. We are too soft, too stupid.

delw

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I know our Childminder manages to get her shopping done, cook the dinner, do all her housework, visit her own (adult) children while minding our kids.

Its not a tough gig.

Maybe the one you know has it easy but i can tell you that my wife works in childcare with pre school age & by god she works hard,comes home exhausted & stressed.
Also where she works struggle to get staff (CE workers) because nobody wants to work with kids as it is a tough gig

clairefontaine

Sand Wedge wrote: »

I was reading the below article and it does astonish me how much it costs in Ireland for childcare especially in Dublin where it can cost up to €1,000 per month per child. There has to be a more cost effective way of providing childcare.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/childcare-costs-three-months-of-average-annual-wage-589219.html

I know some of the costs are because of staffing levels with:
Children under age of one requiring a staff to child ratio of 1-3
Aged 1-2, ratio of 1-5
Aged 2-3, ratio of 1-6
Aged 3-6, ratio of 1-8

Are these providers making huge profits? Should the state get invoved in this sector and provide childcare facilities where they can operate on a break even basis?

What are your thoughts and opinions?

That one is particularly interesting considering junior and senior infants range from 4-6 and their rations are far from 1-8. More like 1-25.

December2012

For a parent to work full time:-

on average
- work time of 37.5 hours,
- travel time of at least 60 mins a day (to split the difference between the short commutes and the longer ones)

Looking at apx 9.5 hours of child care a day.

1000 / 20 days per month = 50 per day
50 per day / 9.5 hrs = €5.26 per hour

Crèches are open about 13 hours a day, must have cover for breaks, lunch, early starts and late finishes.

Crèches usually provide all food and snacks.

Insurance, heat, equipment, wages make up the cost. Apparently the only way money is made is by the chains and playing the long game, after school, summer camps, etc.

I think it should be tax deductible myself.

seamus

December2012 wrote: »

I think it should be tax deductible myself.

Indeed, it's already a money spinner for the government.

If two parents are working and paying for creche, the government gets income from
- Both parents' income tax
- VAT on the creche service
- Income tax on the creche employees
- corporation taxes on the creche

If the parents have to give up the creche and one stays home to mind the kids, it results in a massive net loss to the economy.

December2012

Plus more crèche / child care centres are needed and therefore more staff employed, more tax paid, more funds in circulation.

Anyone

Aren't Creche Fees VAT exempt? Dunno if it has been changed recently.

As for the person staying home, and their income tax dropping, I'd assume the job would be filled by someone else who would pay tax.

Anyone

shedweller wrote: »

Yet it can be done in other countries. Lots of things can be done in other countries, that cannot be done here. We are too soft, too stupid.

People wouldn't pay the Gov for it, they would complain that its another tax and demand the service for free.

December2012

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I know our Childminder manages to get her shopping done, cook the dinner, do all her housework, visit her own (adult) children while minding our kids.

Its not a tough gig.

It sounds like she's not doing much childminding then.

keithclancy

Sand Wedge wrote: »

I was reading the below article and it does astonish me how much it costs in Ireland for childcare especially in Dublin where it can cost up to €1,000 per month per child. There has to be a more cost effective way of providing childcare.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/childcare-costs-three-months-of-average-annual-wage-589219.html

I know some of the costs are because of staffing levels with:
Children under age of one requiring a staff to child ratio of 1-3
Aged 1-2, ratio of 1-5
Aged 2-3, ratio of 1-6
Aged 3-6, ratio of 1-8

Are these providers making huge profits? Should the state get invoved in this sector and provide childcare facilities where they can operate on a break even basis?

What are your thoughts and opinions?

Because these days OP, people expect their Childminding facility to have workers qualified in all sorts of stuff.

Also if anything happens to their little angel the Parents potentially sue the arse off the Creche.

In the old days you'd get dumped with an older neighbour and they'd throw a few quid their way.

Ironically you don't need any qualifications to have kids .. you just need a penis and a vagina, however when it comes to minding children people expect Mary Poppins with a degree in Child Psychology.

Pinklady11

seamus wrote: »

Staff wages are a big cost but in the main creche staff aren't that well paid.

Having worked in childcare staff are on little more than minimum wage which is a disgrace considering all staff must be qualified and it is a very demanding job.

The only person I could see benefiting was the owner who was well accustomed to designer clothes, fancy cars and several foreign holidays a year. No recession in her house!

gemini_girl

Fromthetrees wrote: »

It is a tough gig but if you are an individual childminder it can be a nice little job.

If a mother has a kid of her own to mind anyway and takes on the responsibility to mind two or three other kids then it can be pretty profitable.

This mother would be a stay at home mother so gets to do all her housework and that anyway all the while making a few hundred Euro extra per week for herself.

Gets to do all her housework??? Childminders mind children not do housework. I am a childminder & I wouldnt dream of doing all my housework while looking after kids? How can I sit down painting & doing play doh, going to the playground and do my hoovering etc at the same time?! Its the hardest job that i've ever done & for crap money (4 euro an hour!) I'm a childminder because I love children but 11 hours a day with no break & 4 euro an hour is not an easy gig I can tell you

anncoates

The costs are even more unbelievable given that staff wages are so low although I assume insurance and overheads are high enough.

That's not a jibe at crèche workers who do a really important job - not only the primary function of caring for children but also allowing so many people to go out and work in other sectors of the economy.

Tombo2001

December2012 wrote: »

It sounds like she's not doing much childminding then.

Don't know why you would say that, she does the same things any parent would do if they were staying at home minding their kids.

SCOOP 64

WhiteTiger wrote: »

Gets to do all her housework??? Childminders mind children not do housework. I am a childminder & I wouldnt dream of doing all my housework while looking after kids? How can I sit down painting & doing play doh, going to the playground and do my hoovering etc at the same time?! Its the hardest job that i've ever done & for crap money (4 euro an hour!) I'm a childminder because I love children but 11 hours a day with no break & 4 euro an hour is not an easy gig I can tell you

wow! that was some quick come back.

gemini_girl

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Don't know why you would say that, she does the same things any parent would do if they were staying at home minding their kids.

I dont do all my housework when my kids are at home (3 yrs & 5 yrs). They are involved in the meal prep etc but I get up before them in the morning to do housework & the rest gets done after they go to bed at 7pm. At the week end they get 1 hour of tv & thats when the hoovering is done as that cant be done after bed. The rest of the time we mostly play apart from meals where they love to wash veg etc for me. I dont know any parent who can do loads of house work with small kids, sure they cant be let unsupervised during activities etc not when they are small anyway

Menas

A neighbour of mine did the old "childminding on the side" thing for preschoolers. Turns out she had no qualifications, no insurance and paid no tax. She was also caring for her elderly mother. She suddenly stopped doing it a couple of months ago, not sure why.
Who in their right mind would send there kids to be cared for with someone like that.

Scartbeg

If the Govt were serious about getting people back to work, they would make childcare costs tax deductible. It is hard to take up low paid jobs when you have to pay out most of your earnings for chilcare.

It would probably be close to tax neutral, given the extra tax from those taking up employment, and by bringing those carers currently working for cash into the tax loop (parents would only be able to claim relief on payments to registered carers)

Menas

Scartbeg wrote: »

If the Govt were serious about getting people back to work, they would make childcare costs tax deductible. It is hard to take up low paid jobs when you have to pay out most of your earnings for chilcare.

It would probably be close to tax neutral, given the extra tax from those taking up employment, and by bringing those carers currently working for cash into the tax loop (parents would only be able to claim relief on payments to registered carers)

I could not agree more.

vitani

Scartbeg wrote: »

If the Govt were serious about getting people back to work, they would make childcare costs tax deductible. It is hard to take up low paid jobs when you have to pay out most of your earnings for chilcare.

It would probably be close to tax neutral, given the extra tax from those taking up employment, and by bringing those carers currently working for cash into the tax loop (parents would only be able to claim relief on payments to registered carers)

I agree, but it probably wouldn't affect a lot of lower paid workers who don't pay much PAYE as it is.

Chattastrophe!

vitani wrote: »

I agree, but it probably wouldn't affect a lot of lower paid workers who don't pay much PAYE as it is.

Exactly, it's the higher earners who would benefit by far the most from this.

Would be great if they brought in some sort of incentive scheme though. We're expecting a baby soon, the creche we've chosen is over €1,100 a month. We can just about afford it on two (low-ish) salaries, but not a hope of us being able to have another kid anytime soon, solely because of the cost of childcare. If I was single and had to pay it on my own, it just wouldn't be feasible, I'd have no choice but to give up work.

pickarooney

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Good point......what is Ireland cheap for.....that would be an interesting conversation.

I remember when I was a kid my mother used to go on about people flying in from Iceland to do their shopping in Dunnes.

I remember that. They used even put up banners in Icelandic welcoming them.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Hardonraging wrote: »

Taking care of somebody's spoilt little angel is no easy task, it's like you can just put them in a room and head off for a smoke and stick the head in ever 10 mins..

Says the person with no children and no idea. Both my children are in creche during the week and neither of them are spoilt.

UCDVet

Why is $SERVICE so expensive in Ireland?

People are free to offer $SERVICE for whatever price they want. If $SERVICE seems expensive in Ireland it is because the $SERVICE providers are charging more, and nobody else has come along who is willing to provide the same service for less. So why does this seem to happen in Ireland all the time?

Ireland is a relatively small island, in many cases this contributes to a higher cost of goods, in general. Most services provided still require actual consumable goods (you aren't just paying for the baby-sitting service, you are paying for the food, the heating, the toys, the rent).

Ireland also has a relatively generous social welfare programs and a relatively high minimum wage. There are armies of employees doing work in other countries for significantly less than our minimum wage. Nobody in Ireland is going to do that....because it's illegal. Certainly nobody is going to work for less than the amount of social welfare they can receive. This, absolutely, has an impact on the cost of goods and services - in the US a childcare provider could bring on an extra employee to help watch the kids and pay them 5.30 an hour. In Ireland it is 8.65. That's 63% more.

Ireland also has relatively high taxes. Yes, there are countries with higher taxes, but there are also lots of countries with lower taxes. When businesses price items in Ireland, that price includes the associated taxes the business needs to pay. A candy bar that costs the business the same amount, that is sold at the same markup, in Ireland needs a 23% VAT added to it. In many other countries that business needs to add 0-10%. Obviously 23% is more than 0-10%, so, the customer sees a higher price tag.

All of this has a knock-on effect of everything seeming more expensive. Childcare providers charge more because they also *pay* more, for everything they buy too. If they were really making lots and lots of money profit, opportunistic people would come along and do the same thing, but charge less - and they'd make a ton of money. Prices would go down, until opportunistic people no longer were confident they could charge less, provide the same quality of service, and make lots of money.

Menas

UCDVet wrote: »

Why is $SERVICE so expensive in Ireland?

People are free to offer $SERVICE for whatever price they want. If $SERVICE seems expensive in Ireland it is because the $SERVICE providers are charging more, and nobody else has come along who is willing to provide the same service for less. So why does this seem to happen in Ireland all the time?

Ireland is a relatively small island, in many cases this contributes to a higher cost of goods, in general. Most services provided still require actual consumable goods (you aren't just paying for the baby-sitting service, you are paying for the food, the heating, the toys, the rent).

Ireland also has a relatively generous social welfare programs and a relatively high minimum wage. There are armies of employees doing work in other countries for significantly less than our minimum wage. Nobody in Ireland is going to do that....because it's illegal. Certainly nobody is going to work for less than the amount of social welfare they can receive. This, absolutely, has an impact on the cost of goods and services - in the US a childcare provider could bring on an extra employee to help watch the kids and pay them 5.30 an hour. In Ireland it is 8.65. That's 63% more.

Ireland also has relatively high taxes. Yes, there are countries with higher taxes, but there are also lots of countries with lower taxes. When businesses price items in Ireland, that price includes the associated taxes the business needs to pay. A candy bar that costs the business the same amount, that is sold at the same markup, in Ireland needs a 23% VAT added to it. In many other countries that business needs to add 0-10%. Obviously 23% is more than 0-10%, so, the customer sees a higher price tag.

All of this has a knock-on effect of everything seeming more expensive. Childcare providers charge more because they also *pay* more, for everything they buy too. If they were really making lots and lots of money profit, opportunistic people would come along and do the same thing, but charge less - and they'd make a ton of money. Prices would go down, until opportunistic people no longer were confident they could charge less, provide the same quality of service, and make lots of money.

What had VAT got to do with the cost of creches? There is no vat on the cost they charge their customers and they can claim back any vat they pay?

Vitaliorange

UCDVet wrote: »

Why is $SERVICE so expensive in Ireland?

People are free to offer $SERVICE for whatever price they want. If $SERVICE seems expensive in Ireland it is because the $SERVICE providers are charging more, and nobody else has come along who is willing to provide the same service for less. So why does this seem to happen in Ireland all the time?

Ireland is a relatively small island, in many cases this contributes to a higher cost of goods, in general. Most services provided still require actual consumable goods (you aren't just paying for the baby-sitting service, you are paying for the food, the heating, the toys, the rent).

Ireland also has a relatively generous social welfare programs and a relatively high minimum wage. There are armies of employees doing work in other countries for significantly less than our minimum wage. Nobody in Ireland is going to do that....because it's illegal. Certainly nobody is going to work for less than the amount of social welfare they can receive. This, absolutely, has an impact on the cost of goods and services - in the US a childcare provider could bring on an extra employee to help watch the kids and pay them 5.30 an hour. In Ireland it is 8.65. That's 63% more.

Ireland also has relatively high taxes. Yes, there are countries with higher taxes, but there are also lots of countries with lower taxes. When businesses price items in Ireland, that price includes the associated taxes the business needs to pay. A candy bar that costs the business the same amount, that is sold at the same markup, in Ireland needs a 23% VAT added to it. In many other countries that business needs to add 0-10%. Obviously 23% is more than 0-10%, so, the customer sees a higher price tag.

All of this has a knock-on effect of everything seeming more expensive. Childcare providers charge more because they also *pay* more, for everything they buy too. If they were really making lots and lots of money profit, opportunistic people would come along and do the same thing, but charge less - and they'd make a ton of money. Prices would go down, until opportunistic people no longer were confident they could charge less, provide the same quality of service, and make lots of money.

Another good example of how the high minimum wage reduces the standard of living in this country.

My brother will have two kids going to creche next year, and even though he only needs the creche four days a week he'll be paying €1800 per month.

MrBobbyZ

We're in a similar position. 2 Kids in crech 5 days per week. It works out at just under our monthly mortgage payment. To be honest it is pretty tough but I honestly cant complain about the price charged because when you break it down (as some posters have just done) it seems very reasonable.

Cant wait til they are both at school!!

Menas

MrBobbyZ wrote: »

We're in a similar position. 2 Kids in crech 5 days per week. It works out at just under our monthly mortgage payment. To be honest it is pretty tough but I honestly cant complain about the price charged because when you break it down (as some posters have just done) it seems very reasonable.

Cant wait til they are both at school!!

We Can't wait for the subsidised preschool year!