Why do we work?

P_1

First time posting here so apologies in advance if any conventions are being trod on here.

So an interesting question, why do we devote so much of our time (and conversely why is it so expected of us to) into seeking and participating in paid employment?

On a fundamentally basic level we do it to get money. No money = no food, shelter and other general fun things. Also for some very lucky people, they can derive some kind of fulfillment from paid employment. By that I mean they enjoy doing what they get paid to do.

Depending on what established philosopher you listen to human beings require some kind of fulfillment in life to make them 'whole'. What is that fulfillment? Is it having the liberty to chose how to spend your time, who to associate with and what to do with their body? Is it the acquisition of material goods? It is the provision of food and shelter? Is it finding solace in religion? Or perhaps is it a combination of all these elements plus countless other ones?

Are these elements unattainable without money and as a consequence paid employment?

Corkgirl210

I work.. to enable me to interact with others.. to learn lessons.. to develop my character and other relationships.. to provide service to others.. to allow me to live my life how I want to.. basically it is not fulfillment but more of a souls choice to learn/develop along a certain path.. some may choose justice..(lawyers, etc.) some may choose compassion (priests, nurses).. or maybe I am just too positive.. for me its not about the money.. it is about LIVING LIFE!! and experiencing LIFE!!! my work path teaches me patience, kindness, empathy, sympathy, forgiveness, intuition, wisdom, experience, tolerance, openmindness, acceptance etc. etc.. so I get material, spiritual, emotional, financial and mental rewards...

Lexe

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and what could I do to be one of the lucky ones to find a fulfilling job. I know I should do further study which I'm sure I'd love but I don't know if that would lead me to a job in the end, which I will need.

The most succinct definition I've ever read about fulfilment is from the book "The Science of How to Get Rich"

"A man develops in mind, soul and body by making use of things, and society is so organized that man must have money in order to become the possessor of things; therefore, the basis of all advancement of man must be the science of getting rich.

There are three motives for which we live; we live for the body, we live for the mind, we live for the soul. No one of these is better or holier than the other; all are alike desirable, and no one of the three can live fully if either of the others is cut short of full life and expression.

"Man cannot live fully in body without good food, comfortable clothing and warm shelter; and without freedom from excessive toil. Rest and recreation are also necessary to his physical life.

He cannot live fully in life without books and without time to study them, without opportunity for travel and observation, or without intellectual companionship.

To live fully in mind he must have intellectual recreations, and must surround himself with all the objects of art and beauty he is capable of using and appreciating.

To live fully in soul, man must have love; and love is denied expression by poverty."


I have to agree with this. What I will try to do in the future if study an area that I find interesting, try to make it work as a job, and try to keep a balance between work and play. All much easier said than done!

Yire

I think that man is not free, I'm happy if I have free time to do what I want .... I would like to live without schedules, without heavy responsibilities ...
Interesting

morison4642

i think we work now because we are forced to do so by the society we live in . go walk out the door and try to be free , you cant because we werent taught the skills to live in nature and everywhere u go u will be tresspassing , i lived in a tent for a year its basically illegal to be free

Yire

morison4642 wrote: »

i think we work now because we are forced to do so by the society we live in . go walk out the door and try to be free , you cant because we werent taught the skills to live in nature and everywhere u go u will be tresspassing , i lived in a tent for a year its basically illegal to be free

I would love to live by the sea, in a tent, van or whatever! I would have a garden to eat and little more ... We have a lot of technology but all this really bores me ....We arent free. There are rules and regulations for everybody, we have to comply

morison4642

thats true , there is no real freedom , we dont get to vote on where our food comes from ,what we teach at school, we dont decide our laws , we get given little things to vote on and we all think we have a democracy look closely we dont we are just slaves in a way with the illusion of choice , look closer at the choice all we have to choose from is a load of careers within the system , we live within the system we are given and anybody who trys to live outside that is seen as criminal or vagrant, native tribes are being wiped out by the west the corporations own us and the earth best we can really do is find the place in the system we can tolerate the most and just deal with it , they already won before we were born

Pj!

Interesting question.

A lot of the answers given are to why a person born in today's western society works.
But why as a species do we work? To provide for ourselves is the answer that covers all societies and periods I suppose.


But if suddenly we didn't have to provide, what would everybody do?

Everybody likes days off but how would a year of days off (or more) affect the average person?

Why do wealthy and supposedly retired people continue working even if they don't need to?

Are people happier as a result of simply being occupied for so many hours of the day?

Mardy Bum

The Soul of Man under Socialism by Oscar Wilde may interest you OP. Excellent read.

MaxWig

morison4642 wrote: »

thats true , there is no real freedom , we dont get to vote on where our food comes from ,what we teach at school, we dont decide our laws , we get given little things to vote on and we all think we have a democracy look closely we dont we are just slaves in a way with the illusion of choice , look closer at the choice all we have to choose from is a load of careers within the system , we live within the system we are given and anybody who trys to live outside that is seen as criminal or vagrant, native tribes are being wiped out by the west the corporations own us and the earth best we can really do is find the place in the system we can tolerate the most and just deal with it , they already won before we were born

Can't agree with you.

You are completely free.
Free to do what you choose.

I think its that freedom that weighs heavily on you by the sound of it.

Too much choice.

Where your food comes from??? Grow your own! Buy in Lidl. Buy in Tesco. Buy from the farmer. Forage in the woods. Root through the garbage. Just eat road kill. Eat whatever you want.

I mean - what exactly do you want?

dar100

We work for meaning, this meaning may take many forms, sure, food, shelter etc are needed and ultimately where most of our income is spent. But having a purpose in life is fundamental to a healthy existence. The will to meaning can explain a huge amount of human behaviour, sure this behaviour is influenced by societal factors but it is also a deeply personal experience which helps an individual make sense of the world they occupy.

SuperInfinity

MaxWig wrote: »

Can't agree with you.

You are completely free.
Free to do what you choose.

I think its that freedom that weighs heavily on you by the sound of it.

Too much choice.

Where your food comes from??? Grow your own! Buy in Lidl. Buy in Tesco. Buy from the farmer. Forage in the woods. Root through the garbage. Just eat road kill. Eat whatever you want.

I mean - what exactly do you want?

Nonsense.

He's saying he cannot walk around freely in nature and pick the food that grows from the earth, he cannot edge out his own territory, like all other animals do.

Money doesn't grow on trees, but food does. Water is free, at least it was before civilization came around and ruined everything.

What does he want? It just goes to show how bad modern society has gotten that so many people cannot even imagine or don't even know about how it could be any better, how it was back primitive times pre-civilization.

Did you realize that all around you, fruit trees where you might get food have been prevented from growing? In sub-Saharan Africa where we evolved from, fruit was readily and freely available all year around.

Nowadays, the government will stop you from going into a big field and picking apples from it. They will prevent you from going on thousands of acres of something belonging to Simon Cowell or similar people. In nature, no animal just has nearly all the food and all the territory, because it wouldn't be feasible for them to defend this ridiculously huge territory against starving individuals nearby. And you're so brainwashed that you think this is okay.

The food you buy in the supermarket is just a mockery of the fresh, raw, organic food you would get in the wild. How naive and ignorant you have to be to believe the corporate myth of the modern world.

You disgust and offend me.

Duggys Housemate

Yire wrote: »

I would love to live by the sea, in a tent, van or whatever! I would have a garden to eat and little more ... We have a lot of technology but all this really bores me ....We arent free. There are rules and regulations for everybody, we have to comply

You live in one of the few times and societies in history where you can be paid not to work.

DarkDusk

Yire wrote: »

I would love to live by the sea, in a tent, van or whatever! I would have a garden to eat and little more ... We have a lot of technology but all this really bores me ....We arent free. There are rules and regulations for everybody, we have to comply

I have the same desires, I'd love to have my own farm and be self-sufficient, maybe someday I will be. I light try to get some cash together to provide myself with free energy (i.e. windmills° and sell excess to the state. There would be no television or media talking down my throat everyday, just peacefulness.

I know, it's a bit utopian, but it's still what I'd love to have. State and EU regulations have made it harder for small farmers to thrive among the big multinationals in our world today, sadly.

Black Swan

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Black Swan wrote: »

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Akrasia

Why do we work?

'We' work because we are social creatures and social creatures have inbuilt rules to prevent 'free riders'.

Free riders are those who take from a common pool without contributing anything themselves.

In individualistic animals, this isn't much of a problem because they don't pool resources, but it happens that sharing resources is an extremely effective way of growing your population and surviving. A group of people/ants can accomplish tasks that individuals could never hope to achieve.

Individualistic animals 'work' as much as they need to survive. They catch enough food to feed themselves and their offspring. They build a shelter good enough for themselves only. When they meet their own basic needs, they are free to engage in other activities, While it may look a bit like they have plenty of free time just sitting in a tree sqwaking all day, they're probably very busy defending the territory that they need to survive from invasion or trying to secure a mate or just hiding somewhere safe trying not to get eaten)

Social animals work too, but we divide out our labour so that we can concentrate on more complex tasks.
As tasks get more complex, they require specialisation. It can take years to learn the skills to become a competent carpenter or hunter, so specialisation in certain types of skills became a huge benefit. Rather than sitting on rocks eating baby rabbits because that's all we could catch, we let one guy get very good at building the spears and chairs while the others get very good at hunting the buffalo.
The Buffalo spearers now have far more buffalo than they could ever eat so they shares it with the rest of the tribe.

Everyone pitches in and provides for those who are still too young or too old to be able to contribute fully to the pool or for those who are sick or injured or are currently training so that they can contribute later.

Eventually we have a system where division of labour at an extreme, tasks have become extremely specialised and we have developed complex economic systems to try and distribute the rewards from work to reward work, incentivise innovation and reduce the impact of free riders.

Of course, the economic system is imperfect and there are psychological issues attached to performing the same routine tasks every day, and the distribution of reward versus work is flawed and there are problems with perceptions of free rider not balancing with our desires to provide for the young old and the sick etc

But if we didn't have the current system of work, it would be replaced with another system of work. If you woke up every day and had to go out and find clean water, a place to sh1t, repair damage to your hut, patrol the border and repel invaders, catch and cook food etc. You might 'feel' free, but you might also feel like you're trapped in an endless drudgery of day to day existence and wish there were others around you who you could share some of these tasks with.

SuperInfinity

Akrasia wrote: »

But if we didn't have the current system of work, it would be replaced with another system of work. If you woke up every day and had to go out and find clean water, a place to sh1t, repair damage to your hut, patrol the border and repel invaders, catch and cook food etc. You might 'feel' free, but you might also feel like you're trapped in an endless drudgery of day to day existence and wish there were others around you who you could share some of these tasks with.

There is no problem involved in finding a place to do that any more than... well, finding your own toilet. You see how a dog runs somewhere and does his business and comes back? That's how the other great apes and humans should do it.

In a purely primitive society there would be no huts. Chimpanzees build little nests in trees every night. I'd really love to do the same and see what sleeping that way would be like, but I don't want to break my neck due to not really knowing how to do it correctly and not able to view it being done and learning to do it at a very young age.

Chimps do go around and patrol their borders, however this is an activity that they.. maybe not "enjoy" it per se, but they just "do" it. They don't dislike doing it, they're not like "god damn I wish I didn't have to patrol the border today"... it's like humans going out and walking around. Humans end up walking around anyway because humans are MADE for walking around, bad things happen when they don't, they get unhealthy in many ways. They like walking in nature.

This is the same for going and picking food. What could be more enjoyable and pleasurable than picking beautiful, organic, tasty fruit in the trees? In the jungles and savanna where humans evolved, there was plentiful fruit on the trees all year around. Some people don't believe this at first but it's true, and it's the same way for the great apes today. The idea that early humans lived in scarcity and harsh lives only has merit after they left Sub-Saharan Africa. The truth is that before that there was often fruit available as far as the eye could see in every direction. Climbing and walking and figuring out things like what fruit you want to eat is natural and fun.

Civilization took all of that away, so much that picking food for free is now often thought of as hippy wonderland nonsense. It's a complete joke.

Akrasia

SuperInfinity wrote: »

There is no problem involved in finding a place to do that any more than... well, finding your own toilet. You see how a dog runs somewhere and does his business and comes back? That's how the other great apes and humans should do it.

In a purely primitive society there would be no huts. Chimpanzees build little nests in trees every night. I'd really love to do the same and see what sleeping that way would be like, but I don't want to break my neck due to not really knowing how to do it correctly and not able to view it being done and learning to do it at a very young age.

Chimps do go around and patrol their borders, however this is an activity that they.. maybe not "enjoy" it per se, but they just "do" it. They don't dislike doing it, they're not like "god damn I wish I didn't have to patrol the border today"... it's like humans going out and walking around. Humans end up walking around anyway because humans are MADE for walking around, bad things happen when they don't, they get unhealthy in many ways. They like walking in nature.

This is the same for going and picking food. What could be more enjoyable and pleasurable than picking beautiful, organic, tasty fruit in the trees? In the jungles and savanna where humans evolved, there was plentiful fruit on the trees all year around. Some people don't believe this at first but it's true, and it's the same way for the great apes today. The idea that early humans lived in scarcity and harsh lives only has merit after they left Sub-Saharan Africa. The truth is that before that there was often fruit available as far as the eye could see in every direction. Climbing and walking and figuring out things like what fruit you want to eat is natural and fun.

Civilization took all of that away, so much that picking food for free is now often thought of as hippy wonderland nonsense. It's a complete joke.

Picking food for free is fine, but you'd be hard pressed to live off blackberries and wild turnips these days.

There is a reason why the humans who have learned how to grow our own food have spread to every continent on the planet, while the jungle tribes who live off the forests are still living subsistence existences.

There is a romantic idea about going back to nature, but the reality is that people who live in jungles live very difficult lives and are far more likely to die a violent death compared to people living in modern conditions.

Steve Pinkers book, the better angels of our nature discusses how the 21st century western lifestyle is the longest living, safest, most comfortable, least violent time in history, and it is also where we have the most human rights and freedom.

You are free to live in the woods if you like. It would be easy to move to the jungle and live your fantasy existence. You would probably not stay for too long before realising what you have left behind.

SuperInfinity

Akrasia wrote: »

Picking food for free is fine, but you'd be hard pressed to live off blackberries and wild turnips these days.

Yes, that's we shouldn't ever have travelled to Ireland or europe.

Akrasia wrote: »

There is a reason why the humans who have learned how to grow our own food have spread to every continent on the planet, while the jungle tribes who live off the forests are still living subsistence existences.

There is a romantic idea about going back to nature, but the reality is that people who live in jungles live very difficult lives and are far more likely to die a violent death compared to people living in modern conditions.

The "jungle tribes" have been run out of their natural habitats by modern man.

Akrasia wrote: »

You are free to live in the woods if you like. It would be easy to move to the jungle and live your fantasy existence. You would probably not stay for too long before realising what you have left behind.

That's nonsense. It would be extremely difficult for anyone to move to the land of their ancestors.

Akrasia

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Yes, that's we shouldn't ever have travelled to Ireland or europe.



The "jungle tribes" have been run out of their natural habitats by modern man.



That's nonsense. It would be extremely difficult for anyone to move to the land of their ancestors.

Well, time travel isn't really an option so technically you're right, but there is very little stopping you from going to a different wilderness to try your hand at nomadic hunter gathering if you really wanted to.

Lets say you were dedicated to doing this, you did all the appropriate survival courses, you learned which fruits and vegetables are edible, how to make your own clothes, build shelters, track animals etc. I still wager that you would find yourself shivering and miserable on a wet winters morning wishing that you had a warm bed and dry clean clothes. You would spend most of your time hungry and wet and cold.

That was the life of hunter gatherers, they were nomadic because the local environment would be depleted rapidly by even a small tribe of humans.

We work together because it enables us to have security and comfort and a standard of life unimaginable to the people who lived in pre-historic times.

If we choose to live together and would like to have a good standard of living, there are many 'jobs' that need to be done to maintain our environment.

The people in Jungle tribes need to work too, there is still cleaning, cooking, hunting, making tools, maintaining the villages, rearing the animals, defending the territory of the tribe etc.
And remember, all of these tasks that are really easy to us, are much more time consuming to people without access to technology.

Akrasia

I think what you're really arguing about is why did humans spread out of the narrow corridor of equatorial forest where the climate was always warm and the fruit grew all year round and people could live carefree without any troubles

That's mostly an anthropological question, but it can be broken down quite simply.

Nature doesn't allow abundance to last for any real length of time. If there truly was an over abundance of food and everything was lovely and happy, then the people who settled there would be able to support larger and larger populations. Soon there is a shortage of food so people start getting territorial and chasing away anyone who is a threat to their limited food supply.

That is the story of nature. If there is an abundance of food, the population explodes until the abundance is depleted and then there is either migration or mass starvation.

That is also the function of predation in evolution. If there was loads of food in the jungle then the human population would explode, unless the majority of our children get eaten by wolves before they get a chance to re-produce.

Human population could only have remained stable amid an abundance of food as long as we were unable to defend ourselves and our children from the threat of predators and/or disease

SuperInfinity

Akrasia wrote: »

I think what you're really arguing about is why did humans spread out of the narrow corridor of equatorial forest where the climate was always warm and the fruit grew all year round and people could live carefree without any troubles

That's mostly an anthropological question, but it can be broken down quite simply.

Nature doesn't allow abundance to last for any real length of time. If there truly was an over abundance of food and everything was lovely and happy, then the people who settled there would be able to support larger and larger populations. Soon there is a shortage of food so people start getting territorial and chasing away anyone who is a threat to their limited food supply.

That is the story of nature. If there is an abundance of food, the population explodes until the abundance is depleted and then there is either migration or mass starvation.

That's a common myth based mainly on early evolutionary logic, faulty thought experiments and a handful of examples of species where a claim like that may be accurate. Very often it's from looking at ecosystems where humans have encroached on their territory and damaged the balance of those species so causing a shortage.

This story has a certain superficial logical appeal to it but at least among primate species...... "clearly a species must multiply as much as they can and eventually competition and starvation"..... however it has very little basis in fact. There are many factors that inhibit overpopulation among the apes, firstly is how long it takes to bear and raise a child. A large amount also die in child-birth in nature. Apes that happen to go hungry don't have as many children. The other apes act the same way we do... they don't have that many children if they perceive a shortage of space. Some south american males forego all reproduction and noone knows why, except that they leave it to their brothers or others to reproduce instead and keep population down. The neodarwinian idea is a really simple-minded approach to the very complicated reality.

Akrasia

SuperInfinity wrote: »

That's a common myth based mainly on early evolutionary logic, faulty thought experiments and a handful of examples of species where a claim like that may be accurate. Very often it's from looking at ecosystems where humans have encroached on their territory and damaged the balance of those species so causing a shortage.

This story has a certain superficial logical appeal to it but at least among primate species...... "clearly a species must multiply as much as they can and eventually competition and starvation"..... however it has very little basis in fact. There are many factors that inhibit overpopulation among the apes, firstly is how long it takes to bear and raise a child. A large amount also die in child-birth in nature. Apes that happen to go hungry don't have as many children. The other apes act the same way we do... they don't have that many children if they perceive a shortage of space. Some south american males forego all reproduction and noone knows why, except that they leave it to their brothers or others to reproduce instead and keep population down. The neodarwinian idea is a really simple-minded approach to the very complicated reality.

Those are some very interesting claims. Do you have any links?

I'd be very interested in seeing evidence that populations of primates engage in family planning.

There are mechanisms to limit population growth, but these are usually triggered by food shortages, so the nature of surviving in the wild is that abundance does not last. The population will expand until is uses up all the available resources and then there are different mechanisms that limit further population growth..
What I mean by this is that the romantic idea that if we did not advance civilisation, that hunter gatherers could have lived the kind of garden of Eden utopian existence that you are describing

SuperInfinity

I do not find it worth it to respond to your post. You disputed what I said and I tried to answer your objections multiple times. Now drop it.

goz83

Why do we work?

Stimulation.

I say this because we, in Ireland at least can choose not to work and be provided with shelter and money to buy food in the welfare state we find ourselves in. I personally consider this to be a wasteful existence and poor example to our off-spring, so I work for stimulation and it's nice to get paid for that work. Not working often creates a laziness of person and impacts negatively on ones self esteem and self worth, no matter how much some would deny this. It's not possible to be proud of being a sponge after all; especially if the intention is to remain as such.

Frank Lee Midere

SuperInfinity wrote: »

I do not find it worth it to respond to your post. You disputed what I said and I tried to answer your objections multiple times. Now drop it.

You don't get to mod him. Most of your "facts" had no links. And even if your claims about the apes were true those facts wouldn't apply to humans, as we can see humans have historically had high fertility rates, and tended to increase populations exponentially where possible. Possible being to the carrying capacity of the area they lived in, which is technologically determined.

leahwechat

We work for money ,food and so on .We think we are useful because we can work. Though work takes us so much time , we can't live without it.

Joe1919

Many people agree with Maslow that we are motivated to work (or engage in purposeful action) because we have different needs. e.g. Physical, safety,social, esteem, self-actualization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

Call Me Jimmy

Not just why we work but where and how I think are massively influenced by social engineering.

I understand one must pay their way but what I would definitely dispute is the 'work culture' of the present western world (I can't speak for other areas). The average working week could easily be reduced substantially and everybody would still make enough.

Materialism, again social engineering drives people to think that a certain amount of work for a certain amount of pay is necessary. This delusional mindset is a part of society now to the point that it may not ever go away.

The computer has a lot to answer for in that its stripping away community and even bringing great distance in families and will continue to do so. Working at a computer for the hours that is common at present will be the ruination of many people's health.

Why work? Besides providing for oneself, to build character. As someone already said, to learn and grow - to interact with people every day. To create a sense of self-determination within oneself.

Unfortunately, if sitting at the computer all day very few lasting positives exist besides the pay cheque.

.jacksparrow.

Well basically work comes back to providing a better life for everyone around you and yourself.

Whether it's a mechanic fixing a car or a shop assistant selling clothes, it's all to make life better and easier for people.

Stingerbar

P_1 wrote: »

First time posting here so apologies in advance if any conventions are being trod on here.

So an interesting question, why do we devote so much of our time (and conversely why is it so expected of us to) into seeking and participating in paid employment?

On a fundamentally basic level we do it to get money. No money = no food, shelter and other general fun things. Also for some very lucky people, they can derive some kind of fulfillment from paid employment. By that I mean they enjoy doing what they get paid to do.

Depending on what established philosopher you listen to human beings require some kind of fulfillment in life to make them 'whole'. What is that fulfillment? Is it having the liberty to chose how to spend your time, who to associate with and what to do with their body? Is it the acquisition of material goods? It is the provision of food and shelter? Is it finding solace in religion? Or perhaps is it a combination of all these elements plus countless other ones?

Are these elements unattainable without money and as a consequence paid employment?

It's survival plain and simple

In order to live one must eat, drink and have shelter

As society has progressed we have found that we can live better by the division of labour, by specialising, by living in communities and so on

As the "survival" part has become more manageable we have developed more free time - this time has become increasingly larger

We fill that time with learning, challenges, interests, hobbies and so on

Depending on so many factors such as family stability, war, sickness, education, geographical location, time period and about a million other external and psychological factors we can feel more or less fulfilled in our lives (often in comparison with those around us) and therefore more or less happy depending on how much emphasis we place on happiness

I feel its more a sociological/anthropological question and is very much linked to our behaviour and underlying need for survival