Self build

just do it

Looking at building a house soon and I'm not in the building trade. However to keep the costs down I'm looking into what I can do myself. Any of you take on your own build and which bits can you do yourself?

bob charles

building what exactly, an auld leanto or multistory building?

just do it

bob charles wrote: »

building what exactly, an auld leanto or multistory building?

Fixed op

bob charles

an auld house for a few suck calves or what

td5man

just do it wrote: »

Fixed op

Get an engineer to inspect at various stages and you take the role of the builder who is jusr an organisers/gofor.
There used to be 50-80k of a saving between getting a builder and subbing it out yourself.

mayota

Built here in 2009. Not a builder but have digger on farm so cleared site, levelled and rolled stone leaving it ready for raft. Priced and ordered all materials including trades. Chased walls, put up slabs ect. Put in footpaths with some help, dont worry there'll be loads to do!

bob charles

do you have a significant other? if so you will never hear the end of it. if you want a simple life get a builder and pay him over the odds for the work that has to be done otherwise your other half expects you to have everything done yesterday.

blue5000

I'm inclined to agree with bob, did a self build timber frame pre 2000. It takes an awful lot of your time. Price around a few builders first. If there is any left around you. All I can say is it's a steep learning curve.

Have you PP got?

Manoffeeling

Don't learn on your own project. That's what building sites werefor!

td5man

Manoffeeling wrote: »

Don't learn on your own project. That's what building sites werefor!

TRUE i've spent the last 20 years on sites some i'd be used to way things run.

just do it

I'm predicting it will be a slow build as due to negative equity I don't think we're likely to get a mortgage at the moment. Ideally I'd get a builder to do it all but needs must.

stanflt

started a self build in 2007 lawns only going in this year:eek:-im not good at grass growing

got quotes at the time of 600-800 thousand finished ish(your never finished) for 250k

td5man

stanflt wrote: »

started a self build in 2007 lawns only going in this year:eek:-im not good at grass growing

got quotes at the time of 600-800 thousand finished ish(your never finished) for 250k

Do you need a stoneburier???

reilig

Built ours over 3 years - 2007 to 2010. Was quoted 300k by builder and got it all in at 200k. Have some experience on sites but by no means a tradesman. Was able to dig it out myself with a machine hired from a guy I used to work for. Did foundations myself with the help of a mate who is a civil engineer. Sub contracted everything out to different tradesmen.

A lot of money to be saved by doing it and great satisfaction. Have a brother in law who who is a tradesman and he did a lot of work for me with finishing and having things ready for the next tradesman.

You need someone who knows what they are doing to be able to keep an eye on things and give you advice.

Don't start it until you have enough money to seal it. ie roof and windows. After that you can take all the time you want to finish it.

Loads of stuff you can do yourself. I had stuff to do every evening and weekend. Lots of non skilled work that you have to do to prepare for each tradesman.

It's an adventure and something to take pride in. Like stanfit, we have no lawns yet - maybe this summer. Will do them myself too. If you want the oh on your side, get her on board. Have her there doing jobs with you, let her make decisions (or let her think she's making decisions anyway).

newcavanman

We built in 2005/6 .We had a builder who did it all, but the architect was my brother in law . I dread to think how it would have turned out if we had tried to do it ourselves . My advice, get a builder, if it all goes tits up, y=then you only have one person to sue /

Manoffeeling

stanflt wrote: »

started a self build in 2007 lawns only going in this year:eek:-im not good at grass growing

got quotes at the time of 600-800 thousand finished ish(your never finished) for 250k

6-800000.

caseman

Some good builders out their doing work at very competitive rates.
Don,t think you'd save much unless your able to do alot of work yourself ,and have the time.

mf240

Buy a house off farm in the area if you can it will probably cost less than building and you wont be losing any land.


Also if things dont work out you wont have her living on your land.

td5man

Manoffeeling wrote: »

6-800000.

A modest residence in the northeast!

epfff

mf240 wrote: »

Buy a house off farm in the area if you can it will probably cost less than building and you wont be losing any land.


Also if things dont work out you wont have her living on your land.

Started building here in 10 took two years
Lots of sxxt work to be done every week
Keeping materials on site is even time-consuming
Lot of work humouring grumpy trades men they all want to feel special and get gold stars every so often
The real benefit is you know what is going in to it in terms of materials ect as their is a big difference
My advice is try and get handy man/friend/guy minding the kids for a few hours every week to manage site with you

Ps I hate all plumbers

freedominacup

If you have limited/no experience then don't put a hand to the house yourself. By all means run the site organise trades etc and make sure they are properly supplied. But every job you try to do yourself will take a lot longer and cost a lot more than you think and will often have the complication of delaying another tradesman from getting in to do his job thereby further delaying you esp in the (unlikely at the mo') case that the trade you delay has to go to another job. One tip many tradesmen can't see beyond tae in terms of what materials they might require for the job. I'd be demanding a list from them in the evening of anything they require for following day and only make one trip per day to builers suppliers. You'll need to be on site at eight everyday trades are there in order to keep them going.

Odelay

epfff wrote: »

Lots of sxxt work to be done every week

Am i the only one wondering what "sxxt work" is? is it the fun kind?

td5man

Odelay wrote: »

Am i the only one wondering what "sxxt work" is? is it the fun kind?

sh1t i'd imagine

grazeaway

bob charles wrote: »

do you have a significant other? if so you will never hear the end of it. if you want a simple life get a builder and pay him over the odds for the work that has to be done otherwise your other half expects you to have everything done yesterday.

Easier said then done bob. Paying a builder and paying over the odds for a good one is grand if you have the finance to do so. Moved into our place just after Christmas still loads to do but a great relief.

Started 2 and a half years ago. Couldn't get a mortgage so had been saving for a bit. Worked out how much it would get cost me to get to certain stages. Have a digger but got the site work done by a fella I know. Most important timing to get right is the foundation so wanted that right.

My dad knows a few lads that were builders, semi retired like himself but a fountain of knowledge. Certainly wouldn't be where I am with out them. Had enough money to get to 1st floor level then stopped and waited till I had enough money to get the roof on. No point stopping and having loads of timber exposed to the element. Only managed to get a real push on and get windows, electrics and plumbing, planting and so on done after herself changed jobs and we were able to get a loan.

What I have noticed is there are plenty of tradesman around and the price and availability has improved but the price of materials hasn't come down that much.

moy83

If you are'nt in any rush you could definitely organise the trades yourself . Times are quiet for all trades now and they should all have plenty of time to advise and help you along the way .
The last four houses I have done have been for self builders , three of them not involved in the buildings at all but they got on fine , once you have a engineer/architect that will tell you whats what and reliable experienced tradesmen everything should fall into place for you .

1chippy

Price around a share of builders. The reason i quit and concentrate fully on joinery work now is that there were so many builders building way below cost just to keep cash flowing. Self builds can run into silly money and most hardwares will have one price for a builder and one for joe soap off the street. Pay straight up though and you should be able to pull a decent discount. Get prices off every trade even if they are buddys, money is a great way to loose a friend and every tradesman will have a better drive if he thinks he might come out short.

dzer2

Without a mortgage you are left trying to do it by subbing the work If you have any experience in building you will be able to clear the site, dig the foundation and pour them with a little help. First lay out the site, house garage septic tank and well. Figure out where the power and phone are coming into the site. If you are confident enough you can the lay the foundation blocks again making sure its square and level. After that make sure you are complying with all the building regs.
Just use tradesmen for plumbing and electrics. I used a blocky for the walls but served him myself and the same with the plasterer but be careful as they like the muck mixed the same all the time. Use an engineer to check the work just to keep every thing straight. Be prepared for a long haul and a lot of ear ache but a very satisfying end result. One tip dont take on too may tasks together.

just do it

Thanks for replies folks.

What we do will ultimately depend on whether the banks will back us or not. We'll know that in a few weeks/months. No harm preparing for the other option of doing it piece-meal slowly via direct labour and as much by myself.

I'm interested to see a few lads took on the foundations themselves. Whilst possibly the most important element, it also strikes me as an element you could do yourself, with help from friends that are in the trade of course!

Out of interest, anyone fancy offering a rough price guide per square foot for getting to weather-proof level (needn't be habitable).

freedominacup

just do it wrote: »

Thanks for replies folks.

What we do will ultimately depend on whether the banks will back us or not. We'll know that in a few weeks/months. No harm preparing for the other option of doing it piece-meal slowly via direct labour and as much by myself.

I'm interested to see a few lads took on the foundations themselves. Whilst possibly the most important element, it also strikes me as an element you could do yourself, with help from friends that are in the trade of course!

Out of interest, anyone fancy offering a rough price guide per square foot for getting to weather-proof level (needn't be habitable).

It's very hard to price until you are "out of the ground" and a lot depends on spec but €60/sq ft should get you ready for fit out after that it'll be down to how mad you want to go with kitchens, tiling bathrooms etc.

p.s. AKAIK they have changed the defenition of a site and now even one-offs are subject to the full HSA inspections process. They'll have to find you and be idle enough to go looking for you but just keep it in mind. What you might chance in your own yard with just you there could land you in bother on your "site".

Suckler

reilig wrote: »

If you want the oh on your side, get her on board. Have her there doing jobs with you, let her make decisions (or let her think she's making decisions anyway).

bob charles wrote: »

do you have a significant other? if so you will never hear the end of it. if you want a simple life get a builder and pay him over the odds for the work that has to be done otherwise your other half expects you to have everything done yesterday.

Two good bits of advice regarding the OH. I've seen women get 'involved' in self builds with no real purpose other than 'keeping an eye' on subbies. One woman was complaining that the plasterer was dumping on their site; any left over sand & cement render was dumped out on stone that was going to be covered with concrete - she expected them to take all their waste with them.:rolleyes:

This could be misinterpreted as sexist but, women will understand a kitchen/wardrobe layout and be able to tweak them to suit a lot better than men. I've worked on a number of these from different perspectives and women will quickly spot where a door is opening the wrong way or where a drawer unit works better(I was one of those men)
Tile colour/type etc. I wouldn't pass to much heed on and find the days being dragged around sanitary ware and curtains carpets torture.

Few others off the top of my head -

If you go self-build; Insurance is a major factor. You are employing these trades as the main contractor. An claim for and accident on site will land at your door.

Get every minute detail agreed with subcontractors/trades/suppliers and down in writing BEFORE any works take place. simple things like fittings they intend to use or fixing methods can be vague when the discussion happened six months prior and they're submitting claims for 20-50% more than you'd thought.

Get an agreed payment schedule in place. I've seen guys submit a claim for materials with no back up 3 months before they were due on site.

Store as little as possible on site. Order materials etc. to arrive as needed. The Hiace mafia can smell an unlocked container from 50 miles. (Await Pavee Point to get on to me about that one)

Don't provide your own tools/plant. They will not be returned in the same condition.

Get certified construction professionals in to deign load requirements/ structural details etc. Ensure they have P.I. insurance also.

Making sure you've enough money to get it sealed is good advice, but I'd also recommend getting heating on (low level) as soon as possible.

mfceiling

Just be careful.

Building regs are now a lot more stringent than they were years ago. No more throwing it up and it'll be grand.

Things like BER ratings, PHPP calculations, blower testing, insulation, air tightness and MHRV will all have to be thought about.

No such thing now as 4 block walls and a roof.

dzer2

Just my last bit on this


DO IT ONCE AND DO IT RIGHT. (Its only expensive the day you buy it.)

That's the motto to the trades men

temujinhayes

i built a walter segal style house a few years back, excellent way to go. timber framing is very accessible, with good air tight insulation it is cosy, cheap to heat and bright. check out this website- it includes all materials list, pics of his build and drawings. he built it for 25,000.00
http://www.irishvernacular.com/
good luck!

blockie

:mad:im working in building industry 22 years ,and still going ,my advice is get a contractor to do the whole job,we do blockwork and nothing else ,used to be alot of selfbuilds like you ,but now all contractors,its just not cheaper anymore plenty good builders mad looking for work.currently we have 5 houses on the go not one self build .still get the odd farmer[there the worst]priceing houses asking , if i tend ye what would that take off the price? or if i pump the cavity can ye build it cheaper as ye wont have to put in the aeroboard?[they werent too bothered about who was paying to put it in the first place ]famers are the worst though tightest p....... you would ever want to meet.

pakalasa

Suddenly, the thread gets very interesting.

st1979

Its very hard to rule out using a builder until you have priced them.

Suckler

blockie wrote: »

or if i pump the cavity can ye build it cheaper as ye wont have to put in the aeroboard?[they werent too bothered about who was paying to put it in the first place

It's a legitimate question; if you have less work to do, the rate should come down? Whats the issue?

If they are paying you direct or paying a builder/main contractor is neither here nor there- the customer pays.

blockie wrote: »

: ]famers are the worst though tightest p....... you would ever want to meet.

Try dealing with a trade Unions - especially block layers unions.

Shoddy work, fair-faced blockwork that looked like a child's handy work, straight block work curved in and out, curved block work that was full of gaps and holes, if it looked like rain down tools and straight to the canteen;
Plasterers spent a vast majority of their time building out walls the list goes on.

Try to take them to task on it- all work stops and Union men at the gate.

I worked on one (fairly prestigious) development. Called for curved walls to one elevation; ground floor block was a complete mess. It was decided that all floors thereafter would be metal frame to carry the facade; Blocklayers and unions tried to get compensation for loss of work.

Reap what ye sow.

Suckler

st1979 wrote: »

Its very hard to rule out using a builder until you have priced them.

There are pro's and con's to both; a builder will cost more but offers you a one stop solution (at the additional cost)

As another poster pointed out, if you go down the route of subcontracting separate packages, you will need sufficient time to supervise them all individually and sort out the programming of materials and labour between all parties.

Sometime the extra expense can be worth it in the long run.

freedominacup

Suckler wrote: »

It's a legitimate question; if you have less work to do, the rate should come down? Whats the issue?

If they are paying you direct or paying a builder/main contractor is neither here nor there- the customer pays.



Try dealing with a trade Unions - especially block layers unions.

Shoddy work, fair-faced blockwork that looked like a child's handy work, straight block work curved in and out, curved block work that was full of gaps and holes, if it looked like rain down tools and straight to the canteen;
Plasterers spent a vast majority of their time building out walls the list goes on.

Try to take them to task on it- all work stops and Union men at the gate.

I worked on one (fairly prestigious) development. Called for curved walls to one elevation; ground floor block was a complete mess. It was decided that all floors thereafter would be metal frame to carry the facade; Blocklayers and unions tried to get compensation for loss of work.

Reap what ye sow.

The crew who did the blocks on my own house turned up unexpectedly one day. They were doing my house evenings and weekends but they arrived around 11 one morning. They were on strike in the day job. It was some sort of commercial premises they were on with a good few block laying crews on it. The blocks were finished work with no render to be applied after so every joint had to be uniform and all vertical joints had to be in line. The site foreman had orderd ons of the crews to take down most of a days work the previous evening as it wasn't up to snuff. The strike was because they wanted to come off piece rate and go on time because they couldn't make a reasonable wage on piece rate. This was laying blocks on 5m runs between pillars. Farmers aren't tight just unwilling to be rode. BTW the hourly rate they were looking for was £27.50/hr about 13/14 years ago.

blockie

any of those big jobs that were /are going on are not interested in quality ,its price first,then when job starts foremans/engineer job is to start pulling you on quality, to cut you further.had a big job start in nearby town they rang every blocklayer for 100 miles even us ,got the cheapest after one week they were gone ,went through 15 gangs and 3 main contractors first two went burst half way through it was a public/private partnership school 17 million worth . my point is that there has to be a floor to the priceing as we say ,,you get what you pay for,we have been building on average 22 houses per year for 20 years , most people are sound only got caught once for money but famers are the worst for non stop haggleing last fellow we built for was a fu.......g nightmare too starved to buy lead trays but still wanted us to sign a piece of paper to say there wouldnt be a dampness issue the list was endless ,although in my rant against farmers have to say its only the younger stock [popes childeren]older lads different story all sound .

Suckler

blockie wrote: »

then when job starts foremans/engineer job is to start pulling you on quality.

There's the problem; it's not an Engineers job but became an increasing part of it because blocklayers were continually trying to pass off poor workmanship. If an engineer was inspecting the blockwork; it was quite possibly load bearing. Block layers never considered that their poor workmanship could result in structural failures/life endangering.

Where was the pride in the workmanship?

Back to the OP; get a good digital camera and record everything, especially works that will be covered up. For QA purposes and if remedial work is required down the line.

redzerologhlen

blockie wrote: »

any of those big jobs that were /are going on are not interested in quality ,its price first,then when job starts foremans/engineer job is to start pulling you on quality, to cut you further.had a big job start in nearby town they rang every blocklayer for 100 miles even us ,got the cheapest after one week they were gone ,went through 15 gangs and 3 main contractors first two went burst half way through it was a public/private partnership school 17 million worth . my point is that there has to be a floor to the priceing as we say ,,you get what you pay for,we have been building on average 22 houses per year for 20 years , most people are sound only got caught once for money but famers are the worst for non stop haggleing last fellow we built for was a fu.......g nightmare too starved to buy lead trays but still wanted us to sign a piece of paper to say there wouldnt be a dampness issue the list was endless ,although in my rant against farmers have to say its only the younger stock [popes childeren]older lads different story all sound .

Are u sure your not a painter....because your painting alot of people with the one brush. I have met plenty of tight people farmers and otherwise, a bollox is a bollox regardless of occupation.

1chippy

I find farmers 100% to work for. They may haggle but always pay. The ones i hate arriving at are the ones with two flash cars and never ask how much the job will cost. they are usually the ones that are likely not to pay.
I even got paid in cattle once.

reilig

temujinhayes wrote: »

i built a walter segal style house a few years back, excellent way to go. timber framing is very accessible, with good air tight insulation it is cosy, cheap to heat and bright. check out this website- it includes all materials list, pics of his build and drawings. he built it for 25,000.00
http://www.irishvernacular.com/
good luck!

They are touted as the house that anyone can build - no experience necessary? My experience of such a house is limited, but probably more than most readers on here. I was involved in the construction of one such house in my younger days - as a digger driver. Simple construction, simple materials - it has a lot going for it.

However I have serious reservations about it's design for this country. Personally, when I built my house, I built it with the intention of me and my family living in it for the next 100 years +. To have that, you need concrete or steel. As far as I can recall, the only steel or concrete for this type of house is in the foundations that the house is bolted to (perhaps I have the wrong type of house, but the house job that I was on was by the architect from your quoted website?

I also had a major issue with the soildness of the house. It creaked as you walked through it. It creaked as it dried. I could almost feel it move.

In fairness, I am a firm believer that you get what you pay for. If you invest into a proven house structure, there is no reason why your ancestors can't be living in it in 200 years time. My feeling towards the waltar segal house was that it may be more suited to a summer or weekend residence as opposed to a permanent residence?

Then there's the fire risk? Wasn't Dominic Stevens prototype waltar segal type house partially destroyed by a fire due to a design flaw?

(Again, all of the above could be related to a totally different type of house, but I suspect that it isn't as the above architect was involved in the ones that I am talking about).

Manoffeeling

reilig wrote: »

They are touted as the house that anyone can build - no experience necessary? My experience of such a house is limited, but probably more than most readers on here. I was involved in the construction of one such house in my younger days - as a digger driver. Simple construction, simple materials - it has a lot going for it.

However I have serious reservations about it's design for this country. Personally, when I built my house, I built it with the intention of me and my family living in it for the next 100 years +. To have that, you need concrete or steel. As far as I can recall, the only steel or concrete for this type of house is in the foundations that the house is bolted to (perhaps I have the wrong type of house, but the house job that I was on was by the architect from your quoted website?

I also had a major issue with the soildness of the house. It creaked as you walked through it. It creaked as it dried. I could almost feel it move.

In fairness, I am a firm believer that you get what you pay for. If you invest into a proven house structure, there is no reason why your ancestors can't be living in it in 200 years time. My feeling towards the waltar segal house was that it may be more suited to a summer or weekend residence as opposed to a permanent residence?

Then there's the fire risk? Wasn't Dominic Stevens prototype waltar segal type house partially destroyed by a fire due to a design flaw?

(Again, all of the above could be related to a totally different type of house, but I suspect that it isn't as the above architect was involved in the ones that I am talking about).

Remember the 3 little pigs and the wolf who blew down the straw house, and the timber house, but he couldn't budge the block house!

grazeaway

[QUOTE=Suckler;

Sometime the extra expense can be worth it in the long run.[/QUOTE]

This is the major thing with the builder v self build.

Depending on how much you have been able to save and how much you can borrow this set your budget.

For most of us farmer the house we build will always be our home. It's not we can start with a nice 2 bed cottage and trade up a few times over the years. We get one chance to build so it needs to be a single job.

delaval

If you are not in a hurry do not start. When you need a house get a builder and do not pay 'till everything is to your satisfaction. My brother managed his own, while he saved money on the building his own farm business suffered. His first port of call every day was to site then phone calls.
He swears he would never do it again. I just think he was too busy to have taken on the project

grazeaway

delaval wrote: »

If you are not in a hurry do not start. When you need a house get a builder and do not pay 'till everything is to your satisfaction. My brother managed his own, while he saved money on the building his own farm business suffered. His first port of call every day was to site then phone calls.
He swears he would never do it again. I just think he was too busy to have taken on the project

I know what ya mean but sometimes you can't afford to get a builder that can build the house you have in mind.

What we did look at when we were building was our garage. If we didn't gt the mortgage then I was going to convert the garage. Ground floor was ok for a small kitchen living room with a small bathroom in the corner. Attic was just big enough to stand up and we could get a bed up there. Water power and septic tank would have needed to be done anyway. We would then use the money we saved on doing bits to the house. It would have been ok as there are just the two of us at the mo.

hadoken13

We are looking to build a house in about 6 months time and I have a couple of questions that have not been answered already. Where are most people going for building plans; an architect, planahome.ie, a builder? We were thinking of getting a builder to do everything up to first fix (without windows, plumbing, electrical work, plastering etc.) and sub-contractors for the rest. Has anyone had to get a price off builders for this (i.e. the main build including the roof and without the inside work)?

tabby aspreme

I think there is new Health and Safety legislation coming in that an architect or building engineer has to be involved in every building project including private work

hadoken13

tabby aspreme wrote: »

I think there is new Health and Safety legislation coming in that an architect or building engineer has to be involved in every building project including private work

Yep. We would've used an architect for most of the build any way - and to preside over the second fix work too.

Depending on finances we will know what route to take. Just need to find the right plan that we both agree on.