Why are there so few few trained accountants in the Gardai

jonsnow

Given the explosion in white collar crime and the increasing sophistication of criminals why is it that the Gardai seem so reluctant to upskill and recruit or train qualified accountants and then place these in the specialist units tasked with keeping a handle on financial crimes.Or at least recruit some more civilian accountants on secondment from the top accounting firms?

At present there are 2 civilian accountants in the entire fraud squad to cover the entire country which is a disgrace and goes some way to explaining how fraud convictions have halved in the last decade.

If you examine Dail exchanges from 1991 between Alan Shatter and the Minister of Justice at the time and Dail exchanges from 20 years later also involving Shatter and the Minister for Justice at the Time you can see that the culture of the Fraud Squad has basically remained unchanged despite the fact that financial services are now a much larger and more integral part of our economy and society.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1991/02/05/00044.asp

Minister for Justice (Mr. Burke): I propose to take Questions Nos. 45, 59 and 134 together.

While specialist lawyers, accountants or auditors are not attached to the Fraud Squad, the Garda authorities are fully aware that any specialist assistance that they may need in these areas will be readily made available to them. I am assured by the Garda authorities that [1481] investigations by the squad are not, and never have been, inhibited by any lack of resources, specialist or otherwise.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/01/12/00403.asp

Deputy Alan Shatter asked the Minister for Justice and Law Reform the number of qualified accountants who are members of the Garda fraud squad or who have been employed to work with the Garda fraud squad; the qualifications and ages of the individuals concerned; the date when recruited and if on secondment from any accountancy firms; the names of the firms, the number of such individuals and the individual arrangements entered into in relation to the work in which they are engaged. [1597/11]

Minister for Justice and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I am informed by the Garda authorities that there are two Civilian Forensic Accountants employed full time by the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation (GBFI) which replaced the Garda Fraud Squad in 1996. No accountants are employed on secondment in GBFI from any accountancy firms.



A thread from a few years ago had a contribution from a qualified accountant who was contemplating joining the Gardai and was enquiring whether if hired this would enable her to join CAB or other specialist units after a stint in the blues. The members on boards basically replied that while obviously this would be of some advantage the way the system worked it wouldn't play a major part and it was more who you know in relation to promotions to elite units as opposed to what you know.

Is this true?Does this explain the lack of qualified Gardai in the right units.Do members know many qualified accountants within the force and do they find it difficult to actually get moved to units where there skills can be put to use due to internal politics.Will this shortfall ever be addressed by management and white collar crime tackled properly?There is 13,000 Gardai. Surely a few qualified accountants could have been recruited?

Pappa Charlie

jonsnow wrote: »

Given the explosion in white collar crime and the increasing sophistication of criminals why is it that the Gardai seem so reluctant to upskill and recruit or train qualified accountants and then place these in the specialist units tasked with keeping a handle on financial crimes.Or at least recruit some more civilian accountants on secondment from the top accounting firms?

At present there are 2 civilian accountants in the entire fraud squad to cover the entire country which is a disgrace and goes some way to explaining how fraud convictions have halved in the last decade.

If you examine Dail exchanges from 1991 between Alan Shatter and the Minister of Justice at the time and Dail exchanges from 20 years later also involving Shatter and the Minister for Justice at the Time you can see that the culture of the Fraud Squad has basically remained unchanged despite the fact that financial services are now a much larger and more integral part of our economy and society.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1991/02/05/00044.asp

Minister for Justice (Mr. Burke): I propose to take Questions Nos. 45, 59 and 134 together.

While specialist lawyers, accountants or auditors are not attached to the Fraud Squad, the Garda authorities are fully aware that any specialist assistance that they may need in these areas will be readily made available to them. I am assured by the Garda authorities that [1481] investigations by the squad are not, and never have been, inhibited by any lack of resources, specialist or otherwise.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/01/12/00403.asp

Deputy Alan Shatter asked the Minister for Justice and Law Reform the number of qualified accountants who are members of the Garda fraud squad or who have been employed to work with the Garda fraud squad; the qualifications and ages of the individuals concerned; the date when recruited and if on secondment from any accountancy firms; the names of the firms, the number of such individuals and the individual arrangements entered into in relation to the work in which they are engaged. [1597/11]

Minister for Justice and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I am informed by the Garda authorities that there are two Civilian Forensic Accountants employed full time by the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation (GBFI) which replaced the Garda Fraud Squad in 1996. No accountants are employed on secondment in GBFI from any accountancy firms.



A thread from a few years ago had a contribution from a qualified accountant who was contemplating joining the Gardai and was enquiring whether if hired this would enable her to join CAB or other specialist units after a stint in the blues. The members on boards basically replied that while obviously this would be of some advantage the way the system worked it wouldn't play a major part and it was more who you know in relation to promotions to elite units as opposed to what you know.

Is this true?Does this explain the lack of qualified Gardai in the right units.Do members know many qualified accountants within the force and do they find it difficult to actually get moved to units where there skills can be put to use due to internal politics.Will this shortfall ever be addressed by management and white collar crime tackled properly?There is 13,000 Gardai. Surely a few qualified accountants could have been recruited?

It's hard to find an honest one!

Zambia

The contractor can a statement which the member can put on the brief and the contractor can be supplied as a witness. The Garda just has to prove his/her case not be trained in every aspect of it.

jonsnow

Zambia wrote: »

The contractor can a statement which the member can put on the brief and the contractor can be supplied as a witness. The Garda just has to prove his/her case not be trained in every aspect of it.

There should be some gardai who are qualified accountabts that is a no-brainer. No need for outside contractors at all if you recruit or train up expert accountant gardai. These skillsets should be within a modern force and shouldn't have to be brought in.If there are more qualified professionals in the fraud squad then maybe they would be able to tackle the high profile white collar cases that have been going on for half a decade now.

And if the gardai don't have the expertise and you need outside experts then you need more than 2 for the entire fraud squad

Pappa Charlie

jonsnow wrote: »

There should be some gardai who are qualified accountabts that is a no-brainer. No need for outside contractors at all if you recruit or train up expert accountant gardai. These skillsets should be within a modern force and shouldn't have to be brought in.If there are more qualified professionals in the fraud squad then maybe they would be able to tackle the high profile white collar cases that have been going on for half a decade now.

And if the gardai don't have the expertise and you need outside experts then you need more than 2 for the entire fraud squad

Most Accountants would have laughed at joining the gardai in the Celtic tiger years, now that work is scarce they want easy access and work, what happens when the private sector picks up again? My money is on them jumping ship ASAP, those in cab and fraud are committed and have excellent experience. They also work hand in hand with revenue where necessary and they know a few things about accountancy!!

Zambia

Maybe Gardai just don't want to become accountants.

IRLConor

Zambia wrote: »

Maybe Gardai just don't want to become accountants.

It's probably a bit of both. How many people have the desire and determination to be both a Garda and an accountant?

I mean, you're talking about accounting qualification (3 - 4 years would be pretty fast) plus Garda college (2 years) plus regular uniformed policing (3 years isn't it?) before you could get into somewhere like the GBFI as a Garda/accountant. That's the guts of a decade, and there aren't many people who are willing to slog for that long to get any job.

coolhandluke

IRLConor wrote: »

It's probably a bit of both. How many people have the desire and determination to be both a Garda and an accountant?

I mean, you're talking about accounting qualification (3 - 4 years would be pretty fast) plus Garda college (2 years) plus regular uniformed policing (3 years isn't it?) before you could get into somewhere like the GBFI as a Garda/accountant. That's the guts of a decade, and there aren't many people who are willing to slog for that long to get any job.

You wouldn't get within a sniff of one of them spots in 5 years even with pull...

goldie fish

Most accountants I have dealt with are dodgy as bejaysus. They spend their time trying to hide their clients money from the taxman, while creaming a sizeable portion off themselves, and wash their hands of it when it all goes wrong (bogus non resident accounts).

The current CAB setup is far better.

jonsnow

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Most Accountants would have laughed at joining the gardai in the Celtic tiger years, now that work is scarce they want easy access and work, what happens when the private sector picks up again? My money is on them jumping ship ASAP, those in cab and fraud are committed and have excellent experience. They also work hand in hand with revenue where necessary and they know a few things about accountancy!!

Nonsense.The Gardai were one of the highest paid professions during the celtic tiger years thanks to all the raises that they kept getting and many accountants working on the high street don't actually earn all that much so it would have been possible to recruit some accountants.Working in a specialist unit with qualifiications and overtime (during the boom years) would mean that they would earn more than a regular plod.

Secondly although many accountants don't get paid all that much as a profession while they may not be recession proof from job losses but they are the next best thing.Very few accountant's have lost their jobs during the crash (prob because people need accountants even more in a crash (see where they are losing money, can avoid tax, examinerships, receivership's etc)

Thirdly if they do go to the bother of joining an GS (and we have had posters on here are qualified accountants who wish to join plus there are already some qualified accountants in the gardai already just not enough) what makes you think that they would be any less committed than any other member.

CAB seem to be doing an excellent job but it is laughable to suggest that given that the entire country has been brought down by white collar crime that the fraud squad are doing enough.At present the chances of being charged and convicted for a complicated white collar crime in this jurisdiction is essentially nonexistent.Even if some token convictions are made (which looks doubtful) then it took far too long.Justice delayed etc.We have a huge financial services industry in this country with a history of contempt for the law.

In this jurisdiction the Gardai are responsible for investigating such crimes and they are failing in their duty.If they are incapable of getting the job done then let them admit it and lets set up an Irish version of the Serious Fraud Office in the Uk with police powers and the ability to investigate and prosecute high end white crime if it is beyond the capabilities of the Gardai.

jonsnow

Zambia wrote: »

Maybe Gardai just don't want to become accountants.

Well then I guess that we cant depend on the gardai to properly investigate complicated white collar crimes so.

jonsnow

coolhandluke wrote: »

You wouldn't get within a sniff of one of them spots in 5 years even with pull...

Is it true that even being a qualified accountant is of no real benefit in relation to being fast-tracked into the fraud squad?

The Big Red Button

goldie fish wrote: »

Most accountants I have dealt with are dodgy as bejaysus. They spend their time trying to hide their clients money from the taxman, while creaming a sizeable portion off themselves, and wash their hands of it when it all goes wrong (bogus non resident accounts).

I'm in the process of becoming an accountant, and I'm from an audit background (Big Four, if it's relevant.)

If anything, I find myself saying to the employer, "Here, this is where someone could commit fraud, this is a weakness in your system. This is how you can fix it, and strengthen your system."

I think that having trained accountants/auditors working with the Gardaí could only be a good thing.

goldie fish

jonsnow wrote: »

Nonsense.The Gardai were one of the highest paid professions during the celtic tiger years thanks to all the raises that they kept getting .

I stopped reading after this.

bobmalooka

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Most Accountants would have laughed at joining the gardai in the Celtic tiger years, now that work is scarce they want easy access and work, what happens when the private sector picks up again? My money is on them jumping ship ASAP, those in cab and fraud are committed and have excellent experience. They also work hand in hand with revenue where necessary and they know a few things about accountancy!!

But work isn't scarce for accountants right now, so most of what you said is irrelevant.

I was under the impression you needed a law qualification as well as an accounting qualification for a career in forensic accounting.

goldie fish

Fluffy Bunny Rabid wrote: »

I'm in the process of becoming an accountant, and I'm from an audit background (Big Four, if it's relevant.)

If anything, I find myself saying to the employer, "Here, this is where someone could commit fraud, this is a weakness in your system. This is how you can fix it, and strengthen your system."

I think that having trained accountants/auditors working with the Gardaí could only be a good thing.

CPA or ACCA?

jonsnow

goldie fish wrote: »

I stopped reading after this.

Garda salaries 2000-2008
http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS


In 2008 the average garda salary with overtime was 1,207.24 with overtime and 1,076.68 without.This was up from 837.87 and 737.80 in 2000 respectively.This amounts to around 60,000 euros a year.A senior fund accountant in 2008 was making around 46000 a year so an average accountant would actually have had a pay raise even during the boom if they had joined the gardai

Accountancy salaries 2008
http://www.brightwater.ie/documents/SalarySurvey08Web.pdf

coolhandluke

jonsnow wrote: »

Is it true that even being a qualified accountant is of no real benefit in relation to being fast-tracked into the fraud squad?

I'm not saying it's of no real benefit, but anybody who thinks they will be heading to the square with 3 years service is codding themselves.

Anyway with civilianisation etc. international best practice is to have civilian specialists in non policing roles, you will find forensic accountants in the marketplace it's not like fingerprints/ballistics etc. that you have to train in house.

But these will more than likely come through the public service, so i would presume direct entry positions will be very limited.

source

jonsnow wrote: »

Is it true that even being a qualified accountant is of no real benefit in relation to being fast-tracked into the fraud squad?

You have to do your time on the street before you can go into any specialist unit, 3 years is the absolute minimum.

Without experience of on the street policing you don't know how the justice system works, you don't know how to investigate crimes and you don't have the skills required for in depth investigations.

source

jonsnow wrote: »

Garda salaries 2000-2008
http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS


In 2008 the average garda salary with overtime was 1,207.24 with overtime and 1,076.68 without.This was up from 837.87 and 737.80 in 2000 respectively.This amounts to around 60,000 euros a year.A senior fund accountant in 2008 was making around 46000 a year so an average accountant would actually have had a pay raise even during the boom if they had joined the gardai

Accountancy salaries 2008
http://www.brightwater.ie/documents/SalarySurvey08Web.pdf

You do realise that averages don't mean a thing. Averages take the entire wage bill oh AGS and divide by the number of members, it includes everyone from the commissioner to students, and I can tell you there is a massive pay gap there.

As a student I earned €200 a week, then, when I was attested (in 2008) I was earning €27k. There was very very very little overtime, and that was only for the specialist units.

goldie fish

Must not be much of an accountant when you don't understand how to use statistics. You cannot compare an average against an actual!

Must be CPA..

The Big Red Button

goldie fish wrote: »

CPA or ACCA?

No. ACA. KPMG.

my daddy works in KPMG...

Oh, to get paid overtime you actually have to work it. Wasn't just thrown out to people.

jonsnow

source wrote: »

You do realise that averages don't mean a thing. Averages take the entire wage bill oh AGS and divide by the number of members, it includes everyone from the commissioner to students, and I can tell you there is a massive pay gap there.

As a student I earned €200 a week, then, when I was attested (in 2008) I was earning €27k. There was very very very little overtime, and that was only for the specialist units.

Of course averages mean something which is why we use them all the time and have set up a Central Statistics Office in the first place.So what if it includes everyone from student to Commissioner. Thats the whole point.Every student Garda is a potential Commissioner with all that potential earning power.Just as every 1st year accountant trainee is a potential Managing Partner of KPMG. If you cant use general pay averages then you cant formulate any kind of public pay policies at all as every situation is going to have anomalies.The entire benchmarking exercise (as misguided as it was) was based around the average pay of private sector workers against their supposed opposites in the public sector.

.The average accountant is earning €54,695 which is in the same ballpark as the average garda. Latest figures we have have for average garda are 2008 when it was €62000.Taking paycuts etc into account its most likely around 54k now.

-http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1025032.shtml =average accountant salary 2012

Anyway this is all a sidetrack the point is that it is clearly possible to recruit more than no accountants at all into the Fraud Squads of one of the largest police forces in europe as the salary considerations are not that detrimental

Pappa Charlie

jonsnow wrote: »

Nonsense.The Gardai were one of the highest paid professions during the celtic tiger years thanks to all the raises that they kept getting and many accountants working on the high street don't actually earn all that much so it would have been possible to recruit some accountants.Working in a specialist unit with qualifiications and overtime (during the boom years) would mean that they would earn more than a regular plod.

Secondly although many accountants don't get paid all that much as a profession while they may not be recession proof from job losses but they are the next best thing.Very few accountant's have lost their jobs during the crash (prob because people need accountants even more in a crash (see where they are losing money, can avoid tax, examinerships, receivership's etc)

Thirdly if they do go to the bother of joining an GS (and we have had posters on here are qualified accountants who wish to join plus there are already some qualified accountants in the gardai already just not enough) what makes you think that they would be any less committed than any other member.

CAB seem to be doing an excellent job but it is laughable to suggest that given that the entire country has been brought down by white collar crime that the fraud squad are doing enough.At present the chances of being charged and convicted for a complicated white collar crime in this jurisdiction is essentially nonexistent.Even if some token convictions are made (which looks doubtful) then it took far too long.Justice delayed etc.We have a huge financial services industry in this country with a history of contempt for the law.

In this jurisdiction the Gardai are responsible for investigating such crimes and they are failing in their duty.If they are incapable of getting the job done then let them admit it and lets set up an Irish version of the Serious Fraud Office in the Uk with police powers and the ability to investigate and prosecute high end white crime if it is beyond the capabilities of the Gardai.

It was accountants who audited the banks accounts during the Celtic tiger years, now they want to be paid to clean up the mess they missed or chose not to see. if they did their job correctly then the fraud squad would have less to investigate and frankly the less of them in the fraud squad the better for me!

jonsnow

source wrote: »

You have to do your time on the street before you can go into any specialist unit, 3 years is the absolute minimum.

Without experience of on the street policing you don't know how the justice system works, you don't know how to investigate crimes and you don't have the skills required for in depth investigations.

The fraud squad doesn't have the skills required for indepth investigations at present now anyway - it hasn't brought in one complicated financial case in its entire history .Obviously a few years learning the rudimentary policing skills are necessary so you dont mess up the chain of evidence etc. but white collar crimes aren't comparable to what your average cop encounters on the beat or even what a detective does learning the ropes in the drug squad.You need someone with financial expertise to catch financial crooks-surely that is self evident. Rolling around in the gutter with drugdealers is going to be of limited use.

The SFO in the UK was set up because the traditional police forces were incapable of policing financial criminals.The SFO is comprised of lawyers, accountants, policeman and IT experts.Until a similar structure is put in place in the Republis we will continue to have the same lamentable record in relation to white collar crime which I think everyone can agree has not been properly tackled in this jurisdiction.

jonsnow

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

It was accountants who audited the banks accounts during the Celtic tiger years, now they want to be paid to clean up the mess they missed or chose not to see. if they did their job correctly then the fraud squad would have less to investigate and frankly the less of them in the fraud squad the better for me!

The less accounting experts in a squad which deals with financial crimes the better?.Maybe its this kind of attitude which has lead to the fraud squad being so ineffectual.

goldie fish

WHat makes you say they are ineffectual? Have you assistance to offer? Can you suggest how an accountant would have made it better? Worth mentioning there aren't many accountants as auditors in revenue, but they seem to do fine!

eoinkildare

Why would someone in the Gardai train themselves to be an accountant when they wouldn't get paid any more than some fella who does nothing in some rural station?

Like i'm not saying there isn't a feeling of satisfaction from doing a good job and self improving but seriously, putting yourself through at least 4 years of serious study for no reward? No way.
You wouldn't get any study time. You would still be on 10 hour shifts. You would still be getting pay cuts the same as every other member.

Eoin

Geansai

eoinkildare wrote: »

Why would someone in the Gardai train themselves to be an accountant when they wouldn't get paid any more than some fella who does nothing in some rural station?

Like i'm not saying there isn't a feeling of satisfaction from doing a good job and self improving but seriously, putting yourself through at least 4 years of serious study for no reward? No way.
You wouldn't get any study time. You would still be on 10 hour shifts. You would still be getting pay cuts the same as every other member.

Eoin

Yes, this is unfortunately the crux of the arguement.
What is the incentive for existing members to upskill or qualified accountants join the force. My understanding is that they are now doin away with the graduate increment.

The point "Accountants got us into this mess, so the last thing we want is an accountant" is laughable.
It' similar to saying "well, someone with expertise in bombs planted the bomb, so the last thing we want is someone else with expertise in bombs to defuse it".
Experts are needed!!! Be they private contractor or gardai is a management decision for within the force.

There have also been alot of "all accountants are corrupt" type comments.
This is similar to the "all gardai are corrupt" type comments. Its not true. Yes, there have been examples of both, but in 99% of cases, it is not true.

Finally, I know of alot of accountants who would join the force, if recruitment were to open. This is not to be taken as a "safe job in a recession" type comment. There is no shortage of accounting jobs in the private sector. However, the reason alot do not apply, as previously stated, is the lack of gaurantee, or even possibility, to work in an area relevant to their skills and kowledge.

McCrack

goldie fish wrote: »

I stopped reading after this.

Indeed, since when was policing a "profession". It's a job or a career if you want to call it that but not a profession in the true sense.

Pappa Charlie

McCrack wrote: »

Indeed, since when was policing a "profession". It's a job or a career if you want to call it that but not a profession in the true sense.

You're a funny guy!!

Wile E. Coyote

jonsnow wrote: »

Given the explosion in white collar crime and the increasing sophistication of criminals why is it that the Gardai seem so reluctant to upskill and recruit or train qualified accountants and then place these in the specialist units tasked with keeping a handle on financial crimes.Or at least recruit some more civilian accountants on secondment from the top accounting firms?

There has always been white collar crime. If the pay in the Gardai was as good or better than what a qualifed accountant was earning during the Celtic Tiger and prior to the recruitment freeze then why didn't more accountants join the force of their own free will without waiting for someone to come headhunt them?

SB2013

McCrack wrote: »

Indeed, since when was policing a "profession". It's a job or a career if you want to call it that but not a profession in the true sense.

Maybe since the requirements for getting out of probation required to completion of a dissertation and the aquisition of a HETAC degree through examinations. Just a guess.

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

There has always been white collar crime. If the pay in the Gardai was as good or better than what a qualifed accountant was earning during the Celtic Tiger and prior to the recruitment freeze then why didn't more accountants join the force of their own free will without waiting for someone to come headhunt them?

Because nobody wants to start at the bottom again, no matter what the job. There's also the risk element. An accountancy practice takes a long time to establish and its a lot to give up on the chance doing something you may not be able for. But i think you'll find that there are quite a few college graduates in the Gardaí trained to degree level in various subjects including accountancy, law and engineering.

eddieham

Not sure that the figures given are correct, seems to be a specific answer to a specific question.

My brother qualified as an accountant in the mid 90's and three of his classmates joined up immediately after graduation and another joined about two years later.
A friend I went to school with qualified and worked as an accountant for a few years and then joined.

Of these, I know that 3 have done very well promotion wise and are using their accountancy skills in relevant sections/roles. The other 2 I have no idea where they are.

Take from that what you will, but I dont think the minister refer'd to any of the above, so who knows how many there really are within the force

angelfire9

wohoo something I am actually QUALIFIED to talk about in the ES forum
I'm a forensic accountant i did this course:

https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/en/CPD/Courses/Course/?ProductId=1352
I did it because i'd lost my job and needed to diversify my career path


I deal in family law which to be honest i dont enjoy (its depressing and gut wrenching at times) but I cant afford to quit

I do not have a law degree my BA was in Law and Accountancy in UL (not even sure if that degree exists anymore)

I would have loved to be a Garda (following in the family footsteps) but failed the medical

My other half is a cop
I earn far more than he does
Would being a member of the fraud squad be more satisfying you bet it would
Would it be more interesting almost certainly
Would it put food on the table and pay the mortgage doubt it
Would it pay for childcare which i would have to get if i weren't working a 9-5 job
NOPE

Would i be able to walk into AGS and swan into the fraud squad with my dual qualifications... not a hope
You work your way up the ladder and pull is probably a help

Should the fraud squad have a team of qualified accountants/forensic accountants in the squad... yes in my opinion they should
Because i know how much a contracted accountant charges (i'm one of em) and the garda salary would be far cheaper
Short term economy, long term diseconomy but what else would you expect from Government pencil pushers in the upper echelons?
A contracted employee is not included in the Garda pay figures released every year
its in the justice budget for sure, hidden under some miscellaneous category
Complete waste of money

I'd probably jump at the chance of a fraud squad position if it were offered even with a pay cut but thats probably cos the current job drives me to tears every week LOL

goldie fish

So you are saying that its better to have garda accountants so the state can save money by paying them less than what they would get as an actual accountant?


Best of luck with that.

discus

McCrack wrote: »

Indeed, since when was policing a "profession". It's a job or a career if you want to call it that but not a profession in the true sense.

The notions surrounding the word 'profession' are archaic at best, pretentious otherwise.

Pappa Charlie

discus wrote: »

The notions surrounding the word 'profession' are archaic at best, pretentious otherwise.

Bitter bitter people!

discus

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Bitter bitter people!

What, me? Nah, not bitter. I'd consider policing to be a profession just as I'd consider soldiering to be likewise. But what bothers me is when certain sectors want it kept as a protected term for their chosen careers.

Geansai

goldie fish wrote: »

So you are saying that its better to have garda accountants so the state can save money by paying them less than what they would get as an actual accountant?


Best of luck with that.

Even if you pay the accountant the same as they would get from the firm they would otherwise we hired by, it would still save the state money.
It's the same issue with the agency nurses.

With using a contractor, as opposed to an employee, you are paying the contracting company, be it KPMG or whoever, a massive premium, which the accountant themselves is not receiving.

However, for that with that premium payment you get increased flexibility (as in you can stop the service at any time) and you also get the support fo the contracting company. In the example of the KPMG account working for the GBFI this would include more specialised techcnial expertise, legal expertise, specific computer systems and applications.