Health Minister Reilly wants lower pub prices and higher off-sales prices!

drunkmonkey

The Minister for Health James Reilly has not ruled out the introduction of a levy on alcohol.

The Alcohol Forum is calling for a new super levy on drink to clamp down on binge drinking and alcohol addiction in Ireland.

Minister Reilly says he is in favour of the minimum pricing of alcohol.

Dr Reilly said: "I would consider anything that would get us back to normalisation.

"Alcohol has a value, if it has a value at all, as a social lubricant. The current situation has the unintended consequences of people getting very intoxicated at home and then going out.

"I would much prefer to see that the price of alcohol in the pub should come down and the price of alcohol in the off licence and the big supermarkets should go way up."

Source


This is something i'm very much in favour of, i'd love to see the pubs alive again. You can hardly get enough lads together on a week night to have a decent game of cards these days. Cheap beer in the pub would get them back out and off the couch watching sky sports.

BeerNut

No legislation can make pubs price-competitive with off licences.

I'd be happier if each sector of the drinks trade spent more time working on how best to serve its customers rather than trying to make things harder for them -- especially the poorest ones.

Big Nasty

I'm all for tightening the gap between pub and off licence prices but if they were to bring in legislation for this it would just end up with a levy on off sales and no change to pub prices. :mad:

Slaphead07

Is the OP serious? Tax people back into pubs they don't want to go to? Put off-licenses out of business so your mates might get off the sofa? (the recent excise increase has already closed wine shops).

It's obvious the vintners have a strong lobby with this government of publicans, teachers and farmers. Nothing else makes sense. Why would a Minister for Heath, he a qualified doctor, want more people to go to the pub? It was disastrous as a social model for Ireland in the past and can hardly be dressed up as healthier than a few unquantified drinks at home.

Gatling

I'd rather spend my beer money in Tesco!

Its easy to understand make off license's increase prices making it more difficult for say underage /welfare recipient's to actually buy cans and what not ,while lower prices in pubs encourage's people back into pubs to drink cheaper pints ,

I know if rather sup affordable pints in a pub than sup cans or bottle at home

BeerNut

Gatling wrote: »

Its easy to understand make off license's increase prices making it more difficult for say underage /welfare recipient's to actually buy cans and what not

Beware of things that are "easy to understand" but don't have any facts to support them. "It stands to reason" and "it's common sense" are up there with "my Da says" as a sound basis for policy.

Gatling wrote: »

lower prices in pubs encourage's people back into pubs to drink cheaper pints

Any evidence for this statement?

drunkmonkey

I'd rather spend my beer money in Tesco!

BeerNut wrote: »

Any evidence for this statement?

Plenty, Empty pubs, a steady decline in pub sales a constant rise in off licence sales, nearly 40% off all drink sold is now in off licences mainly supermarkets.

Hotblack Desiato

Hoptimus Prime

drunkmonkey wrote: »

This is something i'm very much in favour of, i'd love to see the pubs alive again. You can hardly get enough lads together on a week night to have a decent game of cards these days.

You're wishing for an Ireland that's long dead. When drink-driving was acceptable, men were men and went down the pub every night, and women knew their place (chained to the kitchen) and got what was left out of the paypacket after the publican got first dibs...

For anyone with kids and a mortgage a night out in the pub is a very expensive proposition. Babysitter, taxis (even in Dublin, not cheap) etc. and that's before you start paying ripoff prices for a limited selection of watery mainstream beers. Oh and if the wife's not working you have to buy her her drinks as well

noby

Make it more difficult for welfare recipient's to buy cans?

I'm sorry, but that's not easy for me to understand. Do you care to elaborate?

BobMc

I dont care what price the drink is in the pubs, it would never be cheap enough for me to go albeit very occassionally, between a babysitter and a taxi in two directions, theres a huge gap to bridge pricewise

thomasj

[Cough]opening hours[/cough]

.

BeerNut

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Empty pubs

People will go to pubs if prices are lower because "empty pubs". Eh?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

a steady decline in pub sales, a constant rise in off licence sales, nearly 40% off all drink sold is now in off licences mainly supermarkets.

Again, while this may be happening, where's the evidence that price intervention by the government will reverse it?

drunkmonkey

I'd rather spend my beer money in Tesco!

I couldn't see price intervention having a negative effect on pub sales, duty break for small breweries has had a positive effect and this could only help, I doubt there's one craft brewery busting a living out of Tesco yet it has the lions share of the off licence sales.
It'll be a good thing if it happens, I can't see any negatives except curtailing at home drinking which is probably for the best.

rubadub

Not sure what the poll means.

Would you Prefer Cheaper Beer in the Pub than the Off Licence

Does a YES vote mean I want a bottle of beer to be under 75cent in pubs? or does it mean I want to pay over 5.50 for the same bottle in offies now?

MCMLXXV wrote: »

a levy on off sales and no change to pub prices. :mad:

+1. I find it quite confusing, unless I am missing something obvious. I have searched numerous different webpages about this and can't even see a hint at how he is going to reduce prices in pubs

Minister Reilly says he is in favour of the minimum pricing of alcohol.

What about a maximum price so. I think we used to have max prices for alcohol years ago.

The current situation has the unintended consequences of people getting very intoxicated at home and then going out.

I can't see the "unintended consequence", what have they put in place and how did it go wrong?

An example of a drink related "unintended consequence" is closing pubs early in the hope it will curb peoples drinking, the consequence is a backfire, where people get tanked up on last orders, bail into the streets and fight.

I cannot see what they put in place here? it seems they are suggesting they did something to encourage people to go to pubs or something? what was this thing that backfired?

Their closing of offies early did backfire in a way, since I know see people clearing out of the pub before 10pm to make sure they get to the offie -they brought this in to try and help the pub trade.

The "current situation" is that the publican near me can go into centra and buy heineken for 75cent a bottle, centra are presumably still making a profit on this, there is no way a centra is doing the "below cost selling" model as nobody does a weeks shop there, most I see are only buying the beer. This publican then sells them for €5. This is the situation, I don't see how people drinking at home first is an unintended consequence, which suggests this occurance was not foreseen. Its a bloody obvious thing to be happening, and certainly nothing particularly new.

crusher000

Leave well enough alone. It was government policy that messed it up in the first place. The pub was what was tearing the countries families apart. The evil publican and he's greed, mothers at home with 12 crying childer pulling at her apron strings cause the publican had her husband held captive. Let's change Irish society and how they drink and behave. They did that alright, the chased it from the pub to the home. Well done.

BeerNut

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I couldn't see price intervention having a negative effect on pub sales

Indeed. "We're interfering with the market because we think pubs should make more money" would at least be honest. But instead it's "We're interfering with the market because it's for the good of the country", and I'm still waiting for evidence that this is so. To me it sounds like a scam to rake in extra money for the pubs, and every other consequence is of secondary importance. Perhaps I'm wrong, but if I am, I'd like to see the evidence

drunkmonkey wrote: »

this could only help

... the pubs. If you buy most of your beer in the off-trade, it would be harmful for you, would it not?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

except curtailing at home drinking which is probably for the best.

What makes you think it would curtail at-home drinking? Isn't it at least as likely that, with a can of beer costing €2 instead of €1, at-home drinking will stay at the same level, only the customer has to pay more to do it?

enda1

I'd be more more interested in the almost total deregulation of alcohol.
- Make public drinking legal so you can have a bottle of wine in the park
- Allow any retail premises allowed to sell alcohol for on or off-site consumption
- Remove duty from alcohol sales

The vilification of alcohol encourages the overconsumption of it, especially amongst the youth.

suicide_circus

enda1 wrote: »

I'd be more more interested in the almost total deregulation of alcohol.
- Make public drinking legal so you can have a bottle of wine in the park
- Allow any retail premises allowed to sell alcohol for on or off-site consumption
- Remove duty from alcohol sales

The vilification of alcohol encourages the overconsumption of it, especially amongst the youth.

As utopian as all that sounds, if it were introduced tomorrow there would be sheer bloody murder

suicide_circus

Retailers in Newry will be delighted with Minister O'Reillys plans!

enda1

suicide_circus wrote: »

As utopian as all that sounds, if it were introduced tomorrow there would be sheer bloody murder

That's just the usual line trotted out in Ireland. All it does is discourage progress and trying.

Bike rental - "That'll never work in Ireland"
Smoking ban - "That'll never work in Ireland"
Drink Driving Enforcement - "That'll never work in Ireland"

etc. etc.

gibraltar

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Dr Reilly said: "I would consider anything that would get us back to normalisation.

Would love to know what he considers normal.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

"Alcohol has a value, if it has a value at all, as a social lubricant. The current situation has the unintended consequences of people getting very intoxicated at home and then going out.

So no problem with drunk people its just where they get drunk thats the issue

drunkmonkey wrote: »

"I would much prefer to see that the price of alcohol in the pub should come down and the price of alcohol in the off licence and the big supermarkets should go way up."

Price in pubs to come (by undisclosed amount) down so people get intoxicated there and price in off sale to go WAY up so people dont drink at home... again no problem with people abusing booze,the problem is they should be spending more in pubs.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

This is something i'm very much in favour of, i'd love to see the pubs alive again. You can hardly get enough lads together on a week night to have a decent game of cards these days. Cheap beer in the pub would get them back out and off the couch watching sky sports.

The reality is that pricing people away from off sales and into the pub will not send a great bunch of guys down the pub for a game of cards, it will send a few guys down the pub for the "cheap beer" that will make sure most people will avoid them even more.

About 40% of the pubs within walking distance of me are already no-go zones, how anyone could think that making pubs the cheaper option for drinking would help the pub trade is beyond me. For the health minister to say this is like something from The Onion.

Slaphead07

enda1 wrote: »

I'd be more more interested in the almost total deregulation of alcohol.
- Make public drinking legal so you can have a bottle of wine in the park
- Allow any retail premises allowed to sell alcohol for on or off-site consumption
- Remove duty from alcohol sales

The vilification of alcohol encourages the overconsumption of it, especially amongst the youth.

all but the last one. Even as a retailer I don't thing we can remove the duty. A fairer spread would be nice (and democratic) but there's no reason why there shouldn't be fair duty on alcohol.

But yes, a bottle of wine or beer in a park would be nice - abuse of same is a Garda matter. Any retailer can sell alcohol if they have a licence. Again a licence is perfectly reasonable. A "free or all" won't benefit anyone.

Cienciano

"normalisation" was a strange word he uses. Presumably he means the irish packed into pubs again. Why does he want this? Surely, a doctor and health minister would just want lower alcohol consumption and it would just be his minimum pricing idea in action? (terrible idea btw). Why would a doctor/health minister want us drinking, just in a different place?
If anyone thinks this is anything but the pub lobby talking, they are seriously naive. The same pub lobby that were against the drink driving clampdowns, the same pub lobby that were against the smoking ban are now dictating what the Health minster is saying.

BaZmO*

I hate this perceived notion that a pub is somehow the best/safest place to have a drink.

enda1

Slaphead07 wrote: »

all but the last one. Even as a retailer I don't thing we can remove the duty. A fairer spread would be nice (and democratic) but there's no reason why there shouldn't be fair duty on alcohol.

But yes, a bottle of wine or beer in a park would be nice - abuse of same is a Garda matter. Any retailer can sell alcohol if they have a licence. Again a licence is perfectly reasonable. A "free or all" won't benefit anyone.

But why is there a duty, I mean logically.
I know its very hard to remove a tax, economically and budget balancing wise, but I don't see how an alcohol specific tax is particularly fair.

They are an outdated sin tax. If Ireland wants to progress as a secular state we need to drop this fall-back to the churches will.

If on the other hand the logic behind alcohol duty is as a health tax, then it should target other products too such as high-salt foods, high-fat foods, danger sports etc. etc.

Far more fair and just is to get rid of these big-government/nanny-state taxes.

Zebra3

Hoptimus Prime

BaZmO* wrote: »

I hate this perceived notion that a pub is somehow the best/safest place to have a drink.

Yeah, and it's not like anyone ever drinks in a pub on their own. :rolleyes:

P_1

drunkmonkey wrote: »

"Alcohol has a value, if it has a value at all, as a social lubricant. The current situation has the unintended consequences of people getting very intoxicated at home and then going out.

"I would much prefer to see that the price of alcohol in the pub should come down and the price of alcohol in the off licence and the big supermarkets should go way up."

I'm sorry, "Alcohol has a value, if it has a value at all, as a social lubricant."?

Seriously where is it said that you're only meant to use alcohol in a social capacity? What is wrong with enjoying it in a solitary capacity?

listermint

Original Poll Choices are awful.

dzer2

More alcohol bought in off licences and supermarkets than pubs so if you double the price in the offies and supermarkets more tax take to pay over valued ministers and cabinet friends.Simple screw joe public

Slaphead07

enda1 wrote: »

They are an outdated sin tax. If Ireland wants to progress as a secular state we need to drop this fall-back to the churches will.

Eh? Kinda losing the battle with logic there. It's just excise duty. Money for the state coffers. It's worldwide and exists on fuels, tobacco products and much more. It's not going away so I'd just ask that it be applied evenly. A clumsy €1 on every bottle of wine does nothing except put wine shops out of business. Perhaps that is the Minister's policy... who knows?

enda1

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Eh? Kinda losing the battle with logic there. It's just excise duty. Money for the state coffers. It's worldwide and exists on fuels, tobacco products and much more. It's not going away so I'd just ask that it be applied evenly. A clumsy €1 on every bottle of wine does nothing except put wine shops out of business. Perhaps that is the Minister's policy... who knows?

Have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise#Rationale

Alcohol duty has its origin as a sin tax and to an extent as a public health concern. So now that we have moved to the 21st century and the church no longer (supposedly) has a stranglehold on teh country, it can only be excused as a specific health levy. If that is the case, why single out alcohol and not spread this levy to other damaging products/services?