Body snark and the word tr*nny

baby and crumble

Hey guys,

I just finished reading this on Autostraddle and I thought it was very interesting. It's long, so I won't post it in full, but it's really interesting. I'd love to know what people thought, not just those who identify and trans, but everyone- particularly the other women who frequent the board.

http://www.autostraddle.com/on-body-snarking-with-the-word-trnny-168052/

I personally think that the whole "real woman" movement is hugely harmful to body image of women. Just because you don't look a cetain way doesn't make you less of a woman. I've recently been getting called Sir a LOT and getting unwanted attention in ladies changing rooms, which is really weird for me, and quite uncomfortable.

ANyway, be cool to see what other folks think.

Freiheit

I agreed with it totally, as a transgendered person myself, don't know what else to say. I agree that women are a victim of expectations and yes tranny is a derogatory term, used to invalidate both trans and ciswomen, whose expression is seen as making them less than real women,due to the narrow space in which women are expected to occupy. Yeah 'passing' is also a horrible term,but it's because there's such prejudice,that so many seek it.

jaffacakesyum

Haven't read the article yet but it's an interesting theme among women, straight, gay or bi. And of course trans women who have to put up with having their image and femininity brought into question daily.

It's interesting because while I don't like to put labels on myself, in terms of the LGBT community I would be feminine. I would CLEARLY be feminine as I have long hair, wear dresses and makeup on nights out etc. But in the straight world, my femininity is sometimes brought into question because of my interests and the fact that I am attracted to women. Over the Summer I was seeing a girl who was surprised to hear that when talking to a friend of mine alone, that she considered her to be the "feminine one". While my friend, never claimed me to be a "butch lesbian" or "the masculine one", she thought I was more tomboyish. Why? I don't look tomboyish so I can imagine the reason was because I love sport, because I have a 'laddish' sense of humour sometimes, because, while I don't buy into the whole 'chivalry' thing that some lesbians, particularly butch ones, do, I can be quite romantic and I guess when romance is portrayed towards a woman it is seen as a masculine trait.

It all got me thinking that despite not looking masculine, I could be seen as more masculine for silly reasons like that. So I can only imagine what lesbians and trans women feel like when something as obvious as physical traits can be brought into question as well as personality traits.

Azure_sky

Freiheit wrote: »

Yeah 'passing' is also a horrible term,but it's because there's such prejudice,that so many seek it.

I find the term "Presenting" more apt than the term "Passing". Passing implies a deceit. Presenting implies an endeavour.



I don't get too worked up over the term "tranny" myself. If you're transsexual then you need to develope tough skin to survive realistically. I'm not condoning such terms, I'm just being realistic: "is vs ought".

My main concern with such terms is that people lump transvestites/crossdressers with transsexuals, such as myself, under the term "tranny"- nothing against transvestites and crossdressers either. Good luck to them. They're not harming anyone and I support their right to express their sexual orientation/fetish as they're not harming anyone. I just never understood how they get lumped with transsexuals via the transgender umbrella term these days. Seems pretty illogical. As if society does not have enough misconceptions about what it means to be gender dysphoric/ transsexual without these, often self endorsed.... umbrella definitions. Meh. Rant over/.

Lyaiera

During nights lying in bed tormenting myself, I have often wondered about the whole "passing" thing, and a lot of trans physicality. First off, I would take full "female" biology in a heartbeat, even periods (that's for you Ms. Greer.) with that being impossible I've been trying to reconcile what's an attainable female physicality and what's simply me being greedy. I am quite a hefty person, my belly is very much extant and protrusionary. When I fantasized those fantasies of waking up fully female I'd wake up thin, with typically feminine features and with a lack of beer belly: no one would ever have cause to call me a "tranny." Thinking about it though, I've never felt on a physical level that my face or belly was wrong, while I definitely have both a physical and mental sensation that I should have proper boobs and proper bits.

So having broken down my body dysmorphia I began to wonder where does my desire for a different face and a different belly begin. It doesn't feel wrong, I only experience its wrongness when I place myself as I am in society. I imagine my belly to be wrong when I picture myself about town, I don't want to be a fat woman but it doesn't feel like a trans issue, rather a personal pride issue. When I look at my face in the mirror it's a more varied experience, but it takes a level of processing to recognise my discomfort. I'm picturing myself not being accepted as female because of my face.

What I'm trying to get at is what I would change about myself and if it would be for the "correct" reasons. My non-boobs and awkward-bits would be changed because they don't experience the world as I know they should. However if society was willing to accept my non-typically female face I don't think I would change anything about it (apart from my facial hair which just feels silly despite my circus friend insisting I'd make a killing as a bearded lady.) If my face didn't out me as someone idiots want to yell abuse at, or on another level if I was accepted as female no matter my face, I'd probably come to quite like it (even so much as giving myself the occasional wink and finger gun in the mirror.) My belly I'd like to get rid of because it's unhealthy and wobbly and not-nice for me: I took no joy or pride in my appearance as a man, I want to as a woman.

Now a sort-of question and hypothetical which I think is where the first blogger was partly coming from. There's a lot of talk about how women should be proud of their own body. About having pride in yourself and not letting other people dictate how you feel about your own body. When people talk getting slimmer, or curvier, or even a nose job how much of that is knowing intrinsically there is something wrong with your body, knowing that if it mattered to absolutely no-one else in the world, if it was entirely immaterial to everyone would you still have a problem with it yourself? If you didn't have people insulting you, if you had no problem in finding partners who were attracted to you, if you had no problem with looking good in the clothes you want to wear, would you still care about your appearance and physicality?

And I think this all boils down to tolerance. If someone is intolerant of and insulting about how you look, the vast majority of people would internalise that, feel upset, and maybe even come to dislike themselves because of it. If people were tolerant, caring and loving of how you look, would you care yourself?

Lyaiera

Azure_sky wrote: »

My main concern with such terms is that people lump transvestites/crossdressers with transsexuals, such as myself, under the term "tranny"- nothing against transvestites and crossdressers either. Good luck to them. They're not harming anyone and I support their right to express their sexual orientation/fetish as they're not harming anyone. I just never understood how they get lumped with transsexuals via the transgender umbrella term these days. Seems pretty illogical. As if society does not have enough misconceptions about what it means to be gender dysphoric/ transsexual without these, often self endorsed.... umbrella definitions. Meh. Rant over/.

This is in another post because I think it's a different issue brought up in the articles. I used to think that crossdressing and transvestitism were sexual fetishes as well, that's what everything I saw, heard, read and experienced indicated it was, and I didn't understand how that transness fell under the transgender umbrella. However, I've rethought my opinions on it after considering the likes of Eddie Izzard and finding another transvestite comedian, Andrew O'Neill. It's easy to find ideas of fantasy of being a woman, both sexually and non-sexually. I spent a lot of time thinking I simply had a fetish because when I masturbated I masturbated thinking of myself as a woman with a man and they were the most intense periods I felt of "femininity." Stupid me, of course I felt feminine and fantasised about being a woman having sex with a man, I am a straight woman. And of course they were the most intense feelings of femininity as sexual desires are much harder to repress and dismiss than mental feelings of wrongness, look at all them "happily married" Republicans in Washington and all those gay sauna priests.

So when I re-examined Eddie Izzard and found Andrew O'Neill after accepting that I wasn't a dirty fetishist (and there's a lot of problems with thinking that is wrong, as well) and saw that it wasn't a sexual thing for me just that that was the hardest part to suppress, I've come around to the idea that it was something more for them too. They're simply messing with the gender binary for their own wholly normal reasons. They feel they're men, they know they're men, but they also want to accept their feminine side. My earlier thoughts on transvestites was that it was simply "crossdressing" and appearing female. But a lot of transvestites have a story about how they felt that they were getting into their feminine side, and clothes were simply and external show of that, and an anchor point for those feelings.

If you compare it to butch women (and not even solely lesbians) they would never claim that they were anything but women, but there's still an element of moving over to a more typically male box. For many reasons it's far easier for a woman to want to appear manly, or indulge in male stereotypes than it is for a man to indulge in female, I don't think I've ever heard of a female crossdresser (as a term to describe a woman wearing men's clothing.) Of course women will do "manly" things, sure aren't men much better in every way? And now there's even less idea of "butch" women expressing a manly thing, they're simply expressing themselves. However, many butch women (amongst others) feel aggrieved at ideas of a gender binary, or moreso at the idea of gendered expression. And this goes all the way to women who like football being "laddish" and men who like musicals being "girly" or "gay." My view of tranvestitism has moved on to seeing people who are very definitely men, engaging with what is/was typically female. It's taken a slightly more accepting society, and some brave men to do this. However it's now coming into the realms of queer theory rather than trans theory, and it's even going beyond queer theory with queer theory's blurring of lines and moving onto decrying simple intolerance of expression.

Azure_sky

Well, if we're going to be clinical with terms then the term cross dresser denotes one who wears the clothes of which is typically worn by the opposiate sex- in a traditional sense. So technically speaking Jeanne D' Arc and Mulan were crossdressers.
So now that we've got an objective definition of that term lets move on to transvestism.


When I think, read or hear of transvestism I tend to think of panty wearers etc.
Now to be fair it seems there's two different types transvestism. There's the type who get a sexual release from it, and there's the type who get an emotional release from it. I guess sometimes the two can inter twine.
I just don't get how I, as an actual trans-woman, am related to these conditions anymore than I am to Mulan.

Lyaiera

Azure_sky wrote: »

Well, if we're going to be clinical with terms then the term cross dresser denotes one who wears the clothes of which is typically worn by the opposiate sex- in a traditional sense. So technically speaking Jeanne D' Arc and Mulan were crossdressers.
So now that we've got an objective definition of that term lets move on to transvestism.

Where did I get clinical with terms? I said I've never heard a woman described as a crossdresser. That's not clinical in any way, or getting down to any definitions, it's entirely contextual.

When I think, read or hear of transvestism I tend to think of panty wearers etc.
Now to be fair it seems there's two different types transvestism. There's the type who get a sexual release from it, and there's the type who get an emotional release from it. I guess sometimes the two can inter twine.
I just don't get how I, as an actual trans-woman, am related to these conditions anymore than I am to Mulan.

First off I don't know about the distinction between sexual and emotional release. I wouldn't even be sure of the idea of it being a "release." I described it as more an element of queer ideas than a trans idea.

As for the idea of how it falls under transgender terminology I think "transgender" is better as a term for transvestites than it is for me. Transvestites are about blurring gender expressions, crossing gender lines. My gender is pretty firmly set in stone, it's my physical sex attributes that are incorrect. I've never liked the idea of the term "transgender" as an umbrella term either. It's trying to encompass too much and too much that isn't related. But like I said, I think trans well eventually start to solely encompasses what we would see as trans men and trans women, and transvestites will move more towards genderqueer.

All that being said, I don't think any of the terms have much place in day-to-day society. In philosophical, sociological and psychological debate I don't mind their use, as they're performing a function. In day to day I don't care whether a guy wears a dress, whether a man is a trans man or a cis man or whether anyone is bi, gay or straight.

Azure_sky

Have you heard of terms such as bi-gender and androgyne?
Labels suck. But ultimately we do need them to denote reality or else we wouldn't know what the hell we're even referring to.:)

Freiheit

Is this not going a bit off topic? The article was largely about how the term 'tranny' is used to invalidate women of various shades, it's not about the term transgender,(which I actually don't have a problem with).

I've seen women referred to as being 'more like men' for not wearing make up or more elegant clothes. Which casts aspersions on the definition of woman and of man.

Again I can't really add much to the article but I agree with it's sentiments.

Lyaiera

Azure_sky wrote: »

Have you heard of terms such as bi-gender and androgyne?
Labels suck. But ultimately we do need them to denote reality or else we wouldn't know what the hell we're even referring to.:)

Yeah, there's loads of terms floating around. I think we're just starting to see what the realities of gender, gender expression and simple human expression are. The fact is that there's a huge continuum between "both genders" and their expressions, and "both sexes" which I'm not sure if there is any associated expression rather than necessities. And using any one specific term for something falling somewhere in that continuum will be sure to misrepresent someone else. In a way I was just being a bit idealistic in my wishes. Men and women and all else are people first and foremost, to treat someone another way or to call someone something other than "a person" there needs to be a reason that "person" isn't sufficient.

To use an example from Andrew O'Neills stand up: he was looking confused in a shopping centre and a security guard said to him, "The men's is that way if you're looking... And eh... The lady's is that way." Which brings me back to the original article. While the security guard was just a bit confused he was unintentionally really quite nice. He didn't know which toilet would be appropriate for the comedian so he provided both options in an effort not to offend by miscategorising. I'm sure if he then said, "I'll use the ladies" the security guard would have said, "Sure thing, Ms." and been on his way, and "Sure thing, Sir" if he said he'd use the men's. And that's what the body article and the "Tranny" article is about. If someone indicates they're male, or they're female that should be the end of the matter unless further clarification is needed for some really valid reason. The cis writer gave every indication she was female, so to call her a "Tranny" is just plain ignorance and bigotry, her appearance has no bearing on her gender. No matter how she looks she is no more or less a woman. Even if she was a transgender woman there's no need to bring the matter up unless you're her urologist. (Not that people who call others "Trannies" are doing anything other than broadcasting slurs and ignorance.)

baby and crumble

Lyaiera wrote: »

If you compare it to butch women (and not even solely lesbians) they would never claim that they were anything but women, but there's still an element of moving over to a more typically male box. For many reasons it's far easier for a woman to want to appear manly, or indulge in male stereotypes than it is for a man to indulge in female, I don't think I've ever heard of a female crossdresser (as a term to describe a woman wearing men's clothing.) Of course women will do "manly" things, sure aren't men much better in every way? And now there's even less idea of "butch" women expressing a manly thing, they're simply expressing themselves. However, many butch women (amongst others) feel aggrieved at ideas of a gender binary, or moreso at the idea of gendered expression. .

Actually, there is a wide spectrum of folks within the butch spectrum who would prefer feminine pronouns, male pronouns or indeed gender neutral pronouns. I myself identify as butch, I guess, but I will always (I think!) see myself as a woman. I love being a woman, but I feel more "masculine of centre" I guess than other women. Hence butch. And for me, anyway, that side of me isn't about clothes or outward presentation, it encompasses most things about me. Actually, probably more than my sexuality as a lesbian does.

Huh. That's the first time I thought of that. Hmm.

And as for the 'aren't men better' thing- I'm sure that was a joke, but it is something that people assume is the reasoning behind butch women acting and presenting the way they do. I have no desire to be a man. I have no desire to 'pass' as a man, to bind, or anything like that. Obviously for some, butch is a step on the road to transitioning, and that's cool. But me expressing this side of me is making me more comfortable than I ever thought possible, and isn't that a good thing?

Lyaiera wrote: »

To use an example from Andrew O'Neills stand up: he was looking confused in a shopping centre and a security guard said to him, "The men's is that way if you're looking... And eh... The lady's is that way." Which brings me back to the original article. While the security guard was just a bit confused he was unintentionally really quite nice. He didn't know which toilet would be appropriate for the comedian so he provided both options in an effort not to offend by miscategorising. I'm sure if he then said, "I'll use the ladies" the security guard would have said, "Sure thing, Ms." and been on his way, and "Sure thing, Sir" if he said he'd use the men's. And that's what the body article and the "Tranny" article is about. If someone indicates they're male, or they're female that should be the end of the matter unless further clarification is needed for some really valid reason.

I wonder where this shopping centre was... I have been experiencing a lot of mis-gendering recently, since outwardly altering my presentation to reflect my butchness. Doubletakes, being called 'Sir'... I wrote a blog post, actually. (SHAMELESS PLUG!!!)

Lyaiera

baby and crumble wrote: »

Actually, there is a wide spectrum of folks within the butch spectrum who would prefer feminine pronouns, male pronouns or indeed gender neutral pronouns. I myself identify as butch, I guess, but I will always (I think!) see myself as a woman. I love being a woman, but I feel more "masculine of centre" I guess than other women. Hence butch. And for me, anyway, that side of me isn't about clothes or outward presentation, it encompasses most things about me. Actually, probably more than my sexuality as a lesbian does.

Huh. That's the first time I thought of that. Hmm.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say there was only one way to be something. It was my understanding that being butch was always a woman's thing including the use of female pronouns, I stand corrected. (I don't think I've used any pronouns other than He, She and They for someone except online.) I think my point does gel (roughly) with what you're saying. In that you see yourself as a woman, just a woman who tends towards aspects of masculinity, but still very much a woman. I was trying to compare that with some of the male "transvestites" I've encountered. Transvestitism typically is associated with crossdressing, but that doesn't seem to represent many men who are called transvestites. In that they're not interested in just clothing, but in representing their feminine aspects but still remaining firmly in the "male" category. And I'm guessing but I'd be fairly certain you really wouldn't like to be called a "female transvestite" or that you "merely" have a fetish about clothes. Which I think is what these men are getting at, there's no real term for a male equivalent of butch.* You could try forcing the use of the word "camp" but I don't think that has much to do with an actual representation of femininity or femaleness.

And as for the 'aren't men better' thing- I'm sure that was a joke, but it is something that people assume is the reasoning behind butch women acting and presenting the way they do. I have no desire to be a man. I have no desire to 'pass' as a man, to bind, or anything like that. Obviously for some, butch is a step on the road to transitioning, and that's cool. But me expressing this side of me is making me more comfortable than I ever thought possible, and isn't that a good thing?

I'll tentatively say I understand that, as much as I can understand anything that I haven't experienced for myself. I don't have any presumption that a butch woman is trying to be like a man because being a man is better. I don't even think that a butch woman is trying to be like a man, but is simply accepting and representing what they know is the masculine aspect of themselves, again while still being fully a woman. And Andrew O'Neill would agree with you on binding from his perspective. He doesn't use fake boobs because he doesn't want to have boobs and doesn't want to impersonate a woman, his dressing is part of an expression of his femininity as a man. Where with expression I'm not simply referring to clothes but to the totality of his being. And all of this is being said purely based on reading his blog and watching his stand up performances on Youtube, so I do hope I'm not misrepresenting him.


*Conversely to the ill-informed idea of butch women wanting to impersonate their "betters": men, I think it's an equal and possibly more dangerous aspect of gender inequality and intolerance in the perspective of male on male violence that questions why a man would want to have a female aspect to himself. And it shows an intolerance of femininity by even posing the question of why a man would want to have a feminine aspect to himself.

I wonder where this shopping centre was... I have been experiencing a lot of mis-gendering recently, since outwardly altering my presentation to reflect my butchness. Doubletakes, being called 'Sir'... I wrote a blog post, actually. (SHAMELESS PLUG!!!)

I'm presenting as male at the moment, I'm still not confident enough to look typically as my gender in public (although a friend made me try on a dress of hers that she whinged looked better on me than her. ) So I was going to the male bathrooms at a rugby match over the weekend, with the naturally huge queue as is to be expected at half time. As I pushed through the press of people to get out the door someone said, "Woah! I totally thought that was a girl!" I had a brief irrational moment of fear that someone was going to say something then walked away quite happily smiling to myself. It's pretty amazing how much power things like pronouns and gendering has even when uttered by strangers. And almost definitely a power I need to divest from people if I'm to not be constantly upset as I transition.



This is Andrew O'Neill site by the way. http://www.andrewoneill.co.uk/ I'm definitely going through a stupid fan girl stage with him for the time being.



Edit: And please do excuse and point out if I'm being stupid anywhere. I'm relatively new in any understanding of lesbian or butch culture, and a lot of my posts are me trying to come to terms with and progress my ideas of femaleness and gender.

baby and crumble

Lyaiera wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't mean to say there was only one way to be something. It was my understanding that being butch was always a woman's thing including the use of female pronouns, I stand corrected. (I don't think I've used any pronouns other than He, She and They for someone except online.)

Don't worry I wasn't accusing you of anything! I'm still learning myself as I tentatively maneuver myself into this pretty new world for me. I read a great book recently called "Butch is A Noun" which I would highly recommend to anyone who is interested inthis sort of thing... it's very interesting and really get's into the whole identity vs individualism vs womanhood thing.

Lyaiera wrote: »

And I'm guessing but I'd be fairly certain you really wouldn't like to be called a "female transvestite" or that you "merely" have a fetish about clothes. Which I think is what these men are getting at, there's no real term for a male equivalent of butch.* You could try forcing the use of the word "camp" but I don't think that has much to do with an actual representation of femininity or femaleness.

Yeah, you're right, but then words and terms for anything can be so limiting. I mean, there are so many negative connotation to the term 'butch' or 'camp' that it's hard to embrace them and make them yours, you know?

I think, to relate back to the OP, the idea of there being 'one way' to be a 'real' woman is insulting, just like there is only one way to be a 'real' man. I mean, what does that even mean?

PS- Slightly off topic but if anyone is interested in some of the butch stuff, an interesting post is here, called the New Lesbian Stud Manifesto. It's a quick, interesting read around one bloggers perspective. Particularly interesting is her calling out the mysoginistic behaviour that a lot of butches have been emulating, like the worst of maleness, and the thing that so many people see as the worst elements of being butch:

As a lesbian who identifies as a woman first, soft-“Stud” second, it is my duty to tear down negative stereotypes relating to my fellow gender-bending lesbians. I feel it my duty to express in the only way I can my outright disappointment at studs who adopt misogynistic attitudes and behaviors and incorporate them into their relationships with other women as the norm. You, yes you, are not only wrong, you are shining a negative light on the rest of it and it’s not appreciated.

Being a stud is not about trying to control someone or collect women as trophies. It encompasses everything having to do with treating a woman like the Queen she is. In return, she will embrace you as the female King of her castle or however you wish to be honored by your woman. She will understand that just because you may at times feel entirely comfortable expressing your masculine side, you are 100% woman and that doesn’t mean you want to be a man nor does it give her license to strip you of your womanhood in the process. There were women kings throughout history that took on roles as leaders of entire nations. There is only pride and respect to be found in fulfilling such a role.

Lyaiera

baby and crumble wrote: »

Yeah, you're right, but then words and terms for anything can be so limiting. I mean, there are so many negative connotation to the term 'butch' or 'camp' that it's hard to embrace them and make them yours, you know?

I think, to relate back to the OP, the idea of there being 'one way' to be a 'real' woman is insulting, just like there is only one way to be a 'real' man. I mean, what does that even mean?

That's what I've been trying to highlight with my posts, which goes right back to the facebooker calling the lingerie blogger a "tranny." Why would anyone need to categorise someone as that? My immediate assumption would be that she's a woman first and foremost from the way she's presented herself. If I get such an assumption wrong then I'd hope someone would appreciate that I made a genuine attempt to be understanding in my language and would simply correct myself from then on. It's not for me to put definitions on anyone other than myself. And it seems the simplest descriptor is the best. Whether a woman is cis, trans, butch, femme, muscular, curvy, or whatever she's still in all ways and in no lesser way a woman. (unless they don't want to be.)

Freiheit

When I worked in TK Maxx,there a completely bald woman,with a slightly stocky build, who didn't dress particularily femme. She was usually sent to the men's changing room's until she corrected us. It was assumed that a stocky bald person was a man. She obviously had alopecia and credit to her for not bowing to pressure and wearing a wig.