Referendum for Irish Unity 2022

.jacksparrow.

Bertie Woot wrote: »

I'm a Northern Irish Protestant and from a typically Unionist background, and if there were a referendum in 2022, south and north, I would vote in favour of Irish reunification. Ireland was united under British colonial rule for 800 years, and although obvious divisions between British planter and indigenous Gael were real and evident and those divisions continue in Northern Ireland to this day, Ireland can be reunited peacefully and democratically, if that is the wish of the Irish people; Catholic and Protestant.

I find it bewildering that there is virtually no desire for reunification among Southern Irish people, with them viewing unification outside their economic grasp, and that many Northern nationalists have embraced the Northern Irish identity, and in doing so, have effectively legitimised partition. The Good Friday Agreement, instead of spurring Nationalists on to bring about reunification in their lifetime, has instead caused many to become jaded, with the notion "it's never going to happen" being widespread. This loss of morale has led to a virtual abandonment of the traditional Nationalist aspiration to a 32 county independent Republic, and with national self determination.

The people of the ROI have enjoyed their independence for almost a century, whilst Northern Irish Nationalists have endured institutionalised discrimination, and both Nationalists and Unionists were consequently coerced to wade through 30 years of PIRA violence. Not all Unionists are prepared to face up to the past, just as there are many Republicans who shy away from any confrontation of the atrocities that the PIRA committed in the name of Irish freedom. We need to draw a line in the sand, accept that we have a history of division and conflict, and move forward as Irishmen in the spirit and ideals of Wolfe Tone and the United Irishmen; Protestant, Catholic and dissenter, and embrace our destiny.

This may sound like utopian idealism, and very uncharacteristic coming from a Northern Prod, but I am in fact a realist, and acknowledge that is is extremely unlikely that my lot will ever contemplate withdrawal from the United Kingdom, and coming to favour Irish reunification. Dialogue between Unionists and Republicans here in the north, and most importantly, between Northern Irish Unionists and Southern people and politicians of all political party affiliation can perhaps create the baby steps towards a conversation which shall with sufficient momentum create a pathway to the exploration of the concept of Irish unity among Ulster Unionists, who let's face it, are the people who need to be reassured that reunification is nothing to fear.

Most Unionists fear that what happened to Nationalists in NI shall in turn happen to them in a reunified Republic; that a united Ireland shall only deliver persecution, discrimination, marginalisation and alienation. It is the task for Irish republicans and Nationalists to not only reassure Unionists that this shall not be the case, but in the event that it does, there shall be sufficient legislation embedded within any reunification agreement to allow for British governmental intervention. I know that's not going to be popular among nationalists, but the Prods in the north are never going to contemplate a UI without steadfast reassurances and guarantees that persecution shall not be the result of agreeing to enter into a reunified one country one state constitutional arrangement. In fact, even with sufficient guarantees, Irish republicans shall still have their work cut out for them.

I'm old enough to have lived through the troubles in Northern Ireland. I remember the level of violence being so bad that peace seemed impossible, in fact up until 1994 and the ceasefires, I had never experienced "peace", and when it came about it felt abnormal. The Good Friday Agreement not only delivered (an imperfect) peace, it also created a brand new political landscape to explore, and an opportunity to bridge the divisions that had created the conditions for conflict. I never thought the Good Friday agreement would ever happen, as it seemed an impossibility, but it did. Peaceful Irish reunification can also happen; it shall just take time, patience, and a hell of a lot of imagination and persistence.

One of the best posts I have ever read in the countless northern Ireland threads on boards.

Iwasfrozen

@Bertie Woot, good post but you lost me at socialist.

LordSutch

Question; Is it a contradiction in terms for a Northern Irish/British/Unionist/Protestant person to aspire for his region of the United Kingdom
(to leave the UK) and become part of an 'All Ireland' Irish/Nationalist Republic, devoid of any connection to the rest of the United Kingdom?

Cavehill Red

Godge wrote: »

And someone from England might say that they will never be able to commence a truly genuine relationship with the people of the South of Ireland until they renounce their independence and rejoin the United Kingdom.

Some might. But they'd be damn few and far between.

Bertie Woot

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

@Bertie Woot, good post but you lost me at socialist.

I believe the capitalist system is unethical, unfair, and responsible for mass exploitation of the proletariat. It generates and sustains social inequality, and there is no point in attempting to eliminate the cultural inequalities that have existed between British and Irish on this island, and allow the very real social class inequalities that exist between proletariat, petty bourgeoisie and the parasitical capitalist minority elite.

LordSutch wrote: »

Question; Is it a contradiction in terms for a Northern Irish/British/Unionist/Protestant person to aspire for his region of the United Kingdom (to leave the UK) and become part of an 'All Ireland' Irish/Nationalist Republic, devoid of any connection to the rest of the United Kingdom?

No. Despite coming from a Unionist background, I have often argued the case for total separation and a permanent disconnection from the UK and mainland Britain very convincingly on British fora, and have often quoted Wolfe Tone's words which are still relevant to this day:

"To subvert the tyranny of our execrable government, to break the connection with England, the never failing source of all our political evils, and to assert the independence of my country -these were my objectives. To unite the whole people of Ireland, to abolish the memory of all past dissensions, and to substitute the common name of Irishman, in the place of the denominations of Protestant, Catholic, and Dissenter -these were my means."

I have also argued the case for an end to hibernophobia ie. the outdated stereotyping, prejudice, discrimination and hatred towards Irish people based upon a fallacy created by the British colonist (my ancestors) to justify 800 years of British occupation, tyranny, oppression and genocide (famine).

Wolfe Tone himself was a Protestant, descended from the English, and the best Irish Republican that ever lived; a man who gave his life for Ireland; recognising the injustices that his ancestral country of origin had inflicted upon the Irish people, whose only crime was to be indigenous inhabitants of a neighbouring island.

Not all Ulster Unionist Protestants are narrow-minded bigots, some of us have a brain, think for ourselves, have surveyed British-Irish history, and do not tow the traditional British Unionist line. Whilst I have no issue with a total disconnection form Britain in the event of Irish reunification, it would be much better for the Celtic/Gaelic Irish to permit the Ulster Unionist people to sustain their ancestral/historical/ethnic/cultural link with Britain, and to sanction the dual nationality of "British-Irish" in a similar manner to the way Americans of Irish, African and Italian descent consider themselves "Irish-American", Afro-American" and Italian-American".

Post reunification, a referendum on the rejuvenation of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" also might be a good idea; to allow the Irish people the opportunity to democratically choose whether or not to officially rekindle the British connection. If they voted yes, the relationship between Ireland and Great Britain would be radically redefined, with Ireland an independent and equal partner in a Union which could provide social and economic benefits to all of the people of this island. Great Britain has been an oppressor. In the future it can act as a facilitator to the economic success and prosperity of Hibernia.

Iwasfrozen

Bertie Woot wrote: »

I believe the capitalist system is unethical, unfair, and responsible for mass exploitation of the proletariat. It generates and sustains social inequality, and there is no point in attempting to eliminate the cultural inequalities that have existed between British and Irish on this island, and allow the very real social class inequalities that exist between proletariat, petty bourgeoisie and the parasitical capitalist minority elite.

Socialism breeds a lazy, dependant population and an inefficient economy. The best should be allowed to succeed without being held back by the rest. you have some great idea and I agree with everything you've said bar this.

Bertie Woot

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Socialism breeds a lazy, dependant population and an inefficient economy. The best should be allowed to succeed without being held back by the rest. you have some great idea and I agree with everything you've said bar this.

I always bite off more than most people can chew, and can live with that.

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The best should be allowed to succeed without being held back by the rest.

T'was a shame about Seanie and the crew eh? Held back in their prime :rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

Happyman42 wrote: »

T'was a shame about Seanie and the crew eh? Held back in their prime :rolleyes:

A criminal is a criminal that's not a criticism of capitalism.

Seanchai

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Socialism breeds a lazy, dependant population and an inefficient economy. The best should be allowed to succeed without being held back by the rest. you have some great idea and I agree with everything you've said bar this.

By a long shot the biggest socialism in this modern capitalist state is corporate socialism, state intervention designed to support the same people from banks to developers to foreign corporations who would be at the forefront of the ranks condemning "socialism", that is when state intervention distributes wealth to poorer people.

The rants against "socialism" should be hollow to anybody who has witnessed the massive transfer of wealth, and socialisation of corporate debt, during the current recession. And the godfather of capitalist societies, the United States, is a veteran in engaging in such massive corporate socialism. These are capitalist societies in action, not capitalism in the ideals of some blinkered Libertarian theorist.

Seanchai

LordSutch wrote: »

Question; Is it a contradiction in terms for a Northern Irish/British/Unionist/Protestant person to aspire for his region of the United Kingdom
(to leave the UK) and become part of an 'All Ireland' Irish/Nationalist Republic, devoid of any connection to the rest of the United Kingdom?

I'd imagine he wouldn't be a Unionist if he aspired to Irish independence and reunification.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A criminal is a criminal that's not a criticism of capitalism.

You say that socialism breeds a Lazy and dependent population, I would be of the opinion that Capitalism breeds an entitled greedy class of criminals at the top.

@Bertie Woot, there is still a large majority in favor of Irish Unity in the south, its just that those against shout it loud and often and have access to the necessary platform to make their voices heard.

Iwasfrozen

Seanchai wrote: »

By a long shot the biggest socialism in this modern capitalist state is corporate socialism, state intervention designed to support the same people from banks to developers to foreign corporations who would be at the forefront of the ranks condemning "socialism", that is when state intervention distributes wealth to poorer people.

The rants against "socialism" should be hollow to anybody who has witnessed the massive transfer of wealth, and socialisation of corporate debt, during the current recession. And the godfather of capitalist societies, the United States, is a veteran in engaging in such massive corporate socialism. These are capitalist societies in action, not capitalism in the ideals of some blinkered Libertarian theorist.

Sure under proper capitalism these institutions should be allowed to fall.

LordSutch

I don't know what to make of your posts Bertie, they are the most Irish Nationalist republican posts
(posted by a British Unionist) that I have ever read - scratches head & smiles simultaneously :cool:

So, to all intents and puropses you are now an Irish Nationalist, right?

Your language (from a Unionist point of view) also puzzles me. Total seperation from the rest of the UK - 800 years of English oppression - Great Britain as the oppressor - "Not all Ulster Unionist Protestants are narrow-minded bigots" You also mention Hibernophobia quite a lot in your posts, which I find interesting coming from a Unionist, or should I say (ex Unionist)? Now an Irish Nationalist.

Your posts are well thought out, and you have obviously put a lot of time and effort into this topic, so much so that you seem to have completly turned yourself inside out and become the flip side of what you were born, which I find fascinating. You have indeed nailed your new colours (Green White & Orange) to the mast in style, and for that I commend you, specially from one who was born into 'The Unionist Tribe' as your peers would see it. Then again I suppose you are still a Unionist, not in the tradional sense, but a New type of Unionist who seeks to end one union (to the rest of the UK), and replace it with another Union; ie, A Union with the ROI.

I can only presume there are some Nationalists in Northern Ireland who have seen the light from the other side of the prism, and thus shed their Gaelic Irish Nationalist heritage and become unrepentant British Nationalists/Unionist radicals, who will argue at all costs to retain the Union with their kinfolk in the rest of the constituent parts of the United Kingdom in England, Scotland, & Wales.

Tongue in cheek maybe, but its possible . . . .

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

You say that socialism breeds a Lazy and dependent population, I would be of the opinion that Capitalism breeds an entitled greedy class of criminals at the top.

So does socialism. It's the nature of the elite to try hold onto their position. That's why we need a strong capitalist society with minimum government and high social mobility. Let the hardest working move up on the ladder and push aside any complacent elites.

padma

LordSutch wrote: »

I don't know what to make of your posts Bertie, they are the most Irish Nationalist republican posts
(posted by a British Unionist) that I have ever read - scratches head & smiles simultaneously :cool:

So, to all intents and puropses you are now an Irish Nationalist, right?

Your language (from a Unionist point of view) also puzzles me. Total seperation from the rest of the UK - 800 years of English oppression - Great Britain as the oppressor - "Not all Ulster Unionist Protestants are narrow-minded bigots" You also mention Hibernophobia quite a lot in your posts, which I find interesting coming from a Unionist, or should I say (ex Unionist)? Now an Irish Nationalist.

Your posts are well thought out, and you have obviously put a lot of time and effort into this topic, so much so that you seem to have completly turned yourself inside out and become the flip side of what you were born, which I find fascinating. You have indeed nailed your new colours (Green White & Orange) to the mast in style, and for that I commend you, specially from one who was born into 'The Unionist Tribe' as your peers would see it. Then again I suppose you are still a Unionist, not in the tradional sense, but a New type of Unionist who seeks to end one union (to the rest of the UK), and replace it with another Union; ie, A Union with the ROI.

I can only presume there are some Nationalists in Northern Ireland who have seen the light from the other side of the prism, and thus shed their Gaelic Irish Nationalist heritage and become unrepentant British Nationalists/Unionist radicals, who will argue at all costs to retain the Union with their kinfolk in the rest of the constituent parts of the United Kingdom in England, Scotland, & Wales.

Tongue in cheek maybe, but its possible . . . .

To be honest I see Bertie's post reflects him as a very rational well thought out person. He has obviously read Irish History, is proud to be from Ireland and is a forward thinker. Maybe one who has looked at the current situation and sees a future for the whole island of Ireland.

Bertie's way of thinking is hopefully something that can be instrumental in bringing the Unionists and indeed the Loyalists in from the cold. He has seen the siege mentality and fear that Unionists and Loyalists have about their future and I believe he believes in the common good of all Irishmen of all political persuasion that the fear is unnecessary.

We are living in different times and like it or not the phobia which he has mentioned does exist.

LordSutch

Oh I agree that he's "a rational well thought out person", but in fairness Padma, even your language is loaded in favour of Irish Nationalism (to the exclusion of UK Unionism), and I quote "something that can be instrumental in bringing the Unionists and indeed the Loyalists in from the cold"

But I mean, who's to say that Unionists are out in the cold anyway?

Surely they have always seen us as being out in the cold, not just at the birth of the state, but in the modern
world/climate too, what with us being governed by Brussels & unable to even set our own interest rates!

Thing is, how do you convince one million (approx) Unionist/British folk to leave their beloved NHS, their BBC, their Royal Mail + their National heritage, and their comfort within the UK as a country > and then replace that with becoming part of the ROI.

I mean, what is the Big Carrot to get them to leave the UK and join the ROI?

padma

The truth is a lot of the Unionist and Loyalist communities have felt excluded over the past ten years or so. It took a lot for the Unionist and Loyalist politicians to get involved in the peace agreement. Even the issue of Ian Paisley meeting with Sinn Fein took ages to achieve. It wasn't until it was absolutely necessary that he did finally mellow in to the new stormont.

I digress, I've said before here, I'm not a nationalist, but it does seem to me on this Island that a future together is much better than a future divided. The pipe dream that Bertie envisages is as the likes of Wolfe Tone, and Robert Emmet envisaged, (both Protestants I may add) a future where the interests of the people of Ireland are best represented by ourselves alone.

We need faith in ourselves as a people to overcome the centuries of division in creating a lasting peace and who really has no faith in themselves to rule over themselves.

As Bertie said he feels the Loyalty displayed by Ulster Loyalists was wasted and unappreciated. Is this true of other people in the 6 counties? There is a very strong British Nationalism instilled in the Loyalist communities in Northern Ireland and is inherited as a part of their culture.

Though as Bertie pointed out,
" Whilst I have no issue with a total disconnection form Britain in the event of Irish reunification, it would be much better for the Celtic/Gaelic Irish to permit the Ulster Unionist people to sustain their ancestral/historical/ethnic/cultural link with Britain, and to sanction the dual nationality of "British-Irish" in a similar manner to the way Americans of Irish, African and Italian descent consider themselves "Irish-American", Afro-American" and Italian-American".

Think

padma

The Big Carrot would be the orange on the tricolour, y'is can claim it to yourselves as was meant to happen. Just joking, but seriously the biggest carrot of all is Unity with your neighbors beside you. Peace for your children and a future devoid of hatred.

You'll still get BBC. As for the Royal Mail, well you can get that delivered to you when you receive a letter from the UK.

LordSutch

padma wrote: »

I digress, I've said before here, I'm not a nationalist, but it does seem to me on this Island that a future together is much better than a future divided. Think

I hear your arguments padma, and I find this argument above^ particularly poignant, specially in the light of Alex Salmond
and his ongoing argument that Britain is better divided (politically/economically) as an island, than United together as one!

Good thread this, hope it stays on the rails..

Goodnight.

Bertie Woot

LordSutch wrote: »

I don't know what to make of your posts Bertie, they are the most Irish Nationalist republican posts
(posted by a British Unionist) that I have ever read - scratches head & smiles simultaneously :cool:

I may be from the British, Unionist, Protestant community, but unlike most Unionists, who are typically right-wing and conservative, ever since I was a teenager I have believed in Socialist values and principles, and whilst condemning of IRA violence, I have had an empathy with Irish nationalism and its aspirations. Besides, I've always been bit of a maverick.

So, to all intents and puropses you are now an Irish Nationalist, right?

I've thought about this before. If I were to say that I am an "Irish Nationalist" most people would automatically assume that I am of Celtic/Gaelic heritage and a Roman Catholic. I'm not. I am of British colonial ancestral origin (English on my dad's side and Ulster-Scot on my mums), and was born into the Protestant faith (but consider myself an Agnostic), and I was also born on this island and am thus an Irishman. I have no desire to deny or conceal my origins, so must report as someone who comes from a British Unionist background, but who does not believe in the sustainment of NI's union with GB at the expense of the continued partition of Ireland. I believes that the Irish nation should be reunited as a matter of principle, and that there should be a place for the Unionist/Loyalist people within the new Ireland.

Your language (from a Unionist point of view) also puzzles me. Total seperation from the rest of the UK - 800 years of English oppression - Great Britain as the oppressor - "Not all Ulster Unionist Protestants are narrow-minded bigots" You also mention Hibernophobia quite a lot in your posts, which I find interesting coming from a Unionist, or should I say (ex Unionist)? Now an Irish Nationalist.

Whilst non-supportive of Republican violence, intellectually I believe that the Irish Republican analysis of the Irish problem is correct, in that the 'Irish problem' has never been an 'Irish problem', but a British problem as the British created it. I mention hibernophobia, because as a Northern Irish person I have experienced it, and know what it is like to be viewed with suspicion, distrust and prejudice. I've tasted the attitude of some English people towards the Irish, an attitude of superiority, and I cannot approve.

Your posts are well thought out, and you have obviously put a lot of time and effort into this topic, so much so that you seem to have completly turned yourself inside out and become the flip side of what you were born, which I find fascinating. You have indeed nailed your new colours (Green White & Orange) to the mast in style, and for that I commend you, specially from one who was born into 'The Unionist Tribe' as your peers would see it. Then again I suppose you are still a Unionist, not in the tradional sense, but a New type of Unionist who seeks to end one union (to the rest of the UK), and replace it with another Union; ie, A Union with the ROI.

That's a nice way of looking at it, but I can no longer consider myself 'a Unionist' by virtue of the fact that I do not believe in the sustainment of the union with Great Britain in its present form. I believe in the peaceful reunification of Ireland and an end to partition, and have indeed become the very antithesis of what I was born. I respect my people's right to believe in the union, but feel that their loyalty to Great Britain is foolish, and treated with flippancy and disrespect by the mainland British. I believe in nationalism, both British and Irish nationalism, and that Northern Ireland should withdraw from the union with Great Britain and form part of a new Irish nation, and that wasted loyalty to Great Britain, our country of origin, should now be transferred to our country of birth; Ireland.

I can only presume there are some Nationalists in Northern Ireland who have seen the light from the other side of the prism, and thus shed their Gaelic Irish Nationalist heritage and become unrepentant British Nationalists/Unionist radicals, who will argue at all costs to retain the Union with their kinfolk in the rest of the constituent parts of the United Kingdom in England, Scotland, & Wales.

There has indeed been a very surprising embracement of the Northern Irish identity among many young Nationalists here in the north, but I don't think it is anywhere near as widespread as some Unionist politicians would have you believe.

padma wrote: »

To be honest I see Bertie's post reflects him as a very rational well thought out person. He has obviously read Irish History, is proud to be from Ireland and is a forward thinker. Maybe one who has looked at the current situation and sees a future for the whole island of Ireland.

I view reunification as Ireland's destiny, and would much rather see the Ulster Unionist people embrace their Irish identity and walk into a united Ireland than wait for another push from violent Irish Republicanism. Britain was invited to Ireland in the 12th century, and by one King Dermot MacMurrough of Leinster. This invitation transmogrified into an invasion, and thus began an episode in Irish history which has lasted more than 8 centuries, and caused a lot of unnecessary suffering. I do not believe in British imperialism, in empire, and invading other peoples countries and subjecting the indigenous population to tyranny and oppression. That happened to Ireland under British rule, and although I am descended from the colonial British in Ireland, I feel no desire to look back upon past conquests with any sense of glory. The British empire is dead, it deserves to be dead, as it was wrong.

Bertie's way of thinking is hopefully something that can be instrumental in bringing the Unionists and indeed the Loyalists in from the cold. He has seen the siege mentality and fear that Unionists and Loyalists have about their future and I believe he believes in the common good of all Irishmen of all political persuasion that the fear is unnecessary.

We are living in different times and like it or not the phobia which he has mentioned does exist.

I have felt and shared the "siege mentality", as during the troubles in NI it was very real. Despite my pro-nationalist rhetoric, there is still a small part of me which has reservations about Irish reunification, and that is why I feel that steadfast copper-fastened assurances and guarantees must form a vital part of any reunification agreement, so as to dispel all doubt among the Unionist people about what they are walking into, and to obtain their full allegiance.

I shall address the other poster's points in the morning when I am fully awake, after a good night's Northern Irish sleep. Thanks for tuning in and listening.

getzls

kidneyfan wrote: »

Yes if the capital is moved to Ulster no if not.

And the rest of Ireland re-joined the U.K.

if not, stuff it.

Cavehill Red

getzls wrote: »

And the rest of Ireland re-joined the U.K.

if not, stuff it.

There won't be a 'UK' to 'rejoin' soon enough. It really is time that Unionists grasped the nettle of their political and geographical reality. England doesn't give a crap about you and Britain is slowly pulling itself apart. Independence is unfeasible. Ultimately, in a few years or a generation or two, you'll be looking to negotiate a federal settlement on the island, like it or not.

Iwasfrozen

Cavehill Red wrote: »

There won't be a 'UK' to 'rejoin' soon enough. It really is time that Unionists grasped the nettle of their political and geographical reality. England doesn't give a crap about you and Britain is slowly pulling itself apart. Independence is unfeasible. Ultimately, in a few years or a generation or two, you'll be looking to negotiate a federal settlement on the island, like it or not.

Do you mean Scottish independence? Not going to happen, I'll eat my hat if it does and you can quote that.

getzls

Cavehill Red wrote: »

There won't be a 'UK' to 'rejoin' soon enough. It really is time that Unionists grasped the nettle of their political and geographical reality. England doesn't give a crap about you and Britain is slowly pulling itself apart. Independence is unfeasible. Ultimately, in a few years or a generation or two, you'll be looking to negotiate a federal settlement on the island, like it or not.

Can you really see Unionists who some still link the Irish Republic to the support they gave or felt they gave to the IRA wanting to become part of an all Ireland?

No chance.

Cavehill Red

getzls wrote: »

Can you really see Unionists who some still link the Irish Republic to the support they gave or felt they gave to the IRA wanting to become part of an all Ireland?

No chance.

Time heals all wounds, even completely fantasy ones such as you describe.

Cavehill Red

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do you mean Scottish independence? Not going to happen, I'll eat my hat if it does and you can quote that.

I'm old. I remember Tories in Major's government saying similar bluster about the possibility of a Scottish parliament. Indeed, go back far enough and people were saying similar about Britain entering the EU. Currently they say similar about Britain leaving the EU.
Bottom line is, just because you can't imagine something doesn't make it impossible, or even unlikely.

getzls

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Time heals all wounds, even completely fantasy ones such as you describe.

Seems your not old enough to remember when the IRA crossed the border to hide under the protection of the Irish state.

I am.

Cavehill Red

getzls wrote: »

Seems your not old enough to remember when the IRA crossed the border to hide under the protection of the Irish state.

I am.

Your memory may be impaired by senility in that case, since the IRA never functioned under the protection of the Irish state. They crossed the border to evade British security, which is a different matter entirely.
Now, if you want to discuss paramilitary organisations which demonstrably DID function under state protection, we can do that, but it would be an entirely Loyalist-themed discussion, and off-topic to this discussion.

getzls

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Your memory may be impaired by senility in that case, since the IRA never functioned under the protection of the Irish state. They crossed the border to evade British security, which is a different matter entirely.
Now, if you want to discuss paramilitary organisations which demonstrably DID function under state protection, we can do that, but it would be an entirely Loyalist-themed discussion, and off-topic to this discussion.

And the Irish courts.:cool:

Apart from that nothing will EVER happen to make the Unionist people of Northern Ireland want to join that banana Republic.

I and many others were prepared to die before and many did to prevent it.

Little has changed in my way of thinking.