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John Travers interview

Pisco Sour

For whoever is interested:

http://www.therunningreview.com/?p=923

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walshb

Some controversial and risky remarks there.

He really disappointed in Gotenborg. I think he ran an 8.22 after his sub 8 mins in Athlone. Maybe the occasion got to him, or it was just not in the legs on that day. Isn't Gerry Kiernan his coach?

dna_leri

Interesting that he considers core strength work "very important" but not speed work. Hope he does not lose that speed.

I do not do any speed work with my new coach Jerry. We do not need to do it. All I need is strength training as I have proved. I do not need to work on my speed as I have it already.

thirstywork2

walshb wrote: »

Some controversial and risky remarks there.

Sorry what is risky about being honest?

walshb

thirstywork2 wrote: »

walshb wrote: »

Some controversial and risky remarks there.

Sorry what is risky about being honest?

Him being honest isn't risky. Making statements like that about the sport is what is risky, and unless he has some actual evidence, then he should hold his tongue.

woodchopper

A sign of a good interview is when the reader wants to continue reading more of the athletes views. In this respect John is up there with Tom Chamney. Far too many boring Irish athletes out there. I say he needs to stir the hornets nest even more!

walshb

I wonder what Kenyans and Ethiopians would think about his comments?

Yeh, stir the nest more. Maybe next time he can get a swipe in at a few more countries.

ChickenTikka

walshb wrote: »

I wonder what Kenyans and Ethiopians would think about his comments?

Yeh, stir the nest more. Maybe next time he can get a swipe in at a few more countries.

Why the negativity regarding his interview. The man is a super young athlete. He has a few opinions on things and shared them in the interview. What's the problem. If he thinks some of the Kenyans and Ethiopians are overage for juniors, that's his opinion. I'm pretty sure we had topics on boards before debating the same and sharing anonymous opinions on the matter.

thirstywork2

walshb wrote: »

I wonder what Kenyans and Ethiopians would think about his comments?

Yeh, stir the nest more. Maybe next time he can get a swipe in at a few more countries.

Are you for real?

notsofast

This topic was discussed before here on boards, opinion at that time would concur with TRavers' view on the matter. Think it was after the last world juniors.

walshb

thirstywork2 wrote: »

Are you for real?

Yes.

walshb

ChickenTikka wrote: »

Why the negativity regarding his interview. The man is a super young athlete. He has a few opinions on things and shared them in the interview. What's the problem. If he thinks some of the Kenyans and Ethiopians are overage for juniors, that's his opinion. I'm pretty sure we had topics on boards before debating the same and sharing anonymous opinions on the matter.

I didn't think we had to have nothing but praise for the man?

I read the interview. I never said anything negative. I simply found it wrong for him to tarnish two whole countries because of a feeling he has. If he has some solid evidence then he should submit it. Had that been a Kenyan mouthing off about the Irish I would feel the exact same. He is implying/stating that the sport is corrupt. That's a serious allegation. Now, back it up or shut up, or better still, apologise and take it back.

walshb

ChickenTikka wrote: »

Why the negativity regarding his interview. The man is a super young athlete. .

I enjoyed the rest of the interview. Yes, great athlete he is.

Pisco Sour

walshb wrote: »

Him being honest isn't risky. Making statements like that about the sport is what is risky, and unless he has some actual evidence, then he should hold his tongue.

It's not risky or controversial when it's the truth.

TRR

It's not risky when commentators like steve cram and Brendan foster even bring up the issue while live on BBC. Well known fact that birth documentation in some African countries is poor. Anybody in the primary education system in Ireland will have first hand evidence of this!!!!

I'm not getting into this with walshb. He's not one to change his opinion.

walshb

I don't want to "get into" it with anyone. I assume the IAAF have rules, protocols and procedures in place when they create these championships? If so, are Ethiopia and Kenya immune?

I think it's a damaging mark for the sport that people can spout off this without a shred of evidence. It's bad for the sport. I wouldn't be arsed watching a sport that could be that bent. And how will it promote and encourage and prosper the sport if what Travers is claiming is actually true?

And, if Cram is spouting it off then he too is wrong.

Oh, and Travers himself said what he was saying was controverisal. He said this in the interview.

It reminds me of the sore loser, Ochigava, who claimed that the AIBA and Taylor were in cahoots and that the judges were favouring Taylor. Disgraceful remarks. It reeks of sour grapes!

walshb

Pisco Sour wrote: »

It's not risky or controversial when it's the truth.

So it's the truth because what?

If it's the truth then the sport is a farce. Bent, corrupt and pathetic!

Krusty_Clown

It's hardly headline news and even if it were, who is more entitled to ask the questions, than someone who has competed on the track as a junior against these athletes? The shock and horror of the keyboard warrior is amusing. A knight bathed in the glow of a monitor reflection, defending the honour and integrity of the African nations.

Will we ever get the answer to that age old question: How old is Haile Gebrselassie?

Sacksian

walshb wrote: »

So it's the truth because what?

If it's the truth then the sport is a farce. Bent, corrupt and pathetic!

It's not as cut and dried as that. You don't even have to assume that it's a massive conspiracy on the part of the African countries.

There are certain socio-political and cultural reasons for why some African countries do not have high levels of birth registration, which means that getting reliable dates of birth for all athletes is harder. Check out the link below:

http://www.unicef.org/esaro/5480_birth_registration.html

In Ethiopia, only 5% of children in rural areas aged under 5 had their births registered.

At a senior level, this doesn't matter at all, but a junior level it has huge consequences because Irish athletes, for example, could be discouraged by being beaten in what might turn out to be later to be an unfair competition.

By the way, age fabrication happens in other sports, including boxing and football. It also happens in China and loads of other countries.

There are reliable tests for determining an athlete's age and all John Travers is saying is that these tests should be used more regularly to ensure that underage competitions are not compromised.

That's not particularly controversial.

walshb

Sacksian wrote: »

It's not as cut and dried as that. You don't even have to assume that it's a massive conspiracy on the part of the African countries.

There are certain socio-political and cultural reasons for why some African countries do not have high levels of birth registration, which means that getting reliable dates of birth for all athletes is harder. Check out the link below:

http://www.unicef.org/esaro/5480_birth_registration.html

In Ethiopia, only 5% of children in rural areas aged under 5 had their births registered.

At a senior level, this doesn't matter at all, but a junior level it has huge consequences because Irish athletes, for example, could be discouraged by being beaten in what might turn out to be later to be an unfair competition.

By the way, age fabrication happens in other sports, including boxing and football. It also happens in China and loads of other countries.

There are reliable tests for determining an athlete's age and all John Travers is saying is that these tests should be used more regularly to ensure that underage competitions are not compromised.

That's not particularly controversial.

I am not saying cheating and corruption does not go on in sport. It does. His matter of fact claim was for me wrong.

plodder

To change tack slightly - it's interesting that he was active in a number of sports before taking up athletics in 5th year at school. I wonder how common that is, ie. someone getting to a good international standard after taking up the sport relatively late? Are there other examples?

I'd say it's less likely in other sports, where the technical skills have to be learnt from a young age. If so, that's a great advantage for athletics (running at least), because there is that "window" of opportunity in the late teens. Transition year in school is one place it could be targeted specifically.

walshb

Sacksian wrote: »

That's not particularly controversial.

He claimed that cheating is happening in world events. That is very controversial. If true, then it's disgraceful.

Sacksian

walshb wrote: »

I am not saying cheating and corruption does not go on in sport. It does. His matter of fact claim was for me wrong.

His exact quotation is: "Another thing, and I might come under controversy for this, would be sorting out the right ages for so called “juniors” from the likes of Kenya and Ethiopia."

He doesn't mention cheating, corruption or any of the other stuff that you do.

He says "sorting out the right ages".

That's about as gentle (and understanding) as you can be about the problem.

There are documented facts for why Kenya and Ethiopia might have problems with birth registration, so to talk about "sorting out the right ages" is not particularly controversial, at all.

Krusty_Clown

From the Haile article:

Age falsification begins early. Scouts for running clubs based in Addis Ababa regularly recruit athletes in rural youth running projects sprinkled throughout the country. The better athletes in these clubs present themselves as younger than they really are to curry the interest of the scouts. While the scouts might make some effort at verification during the recruiting process, formal age determination does not happen until much later, when the best young runners earn their first opportunities to compete outside Ethiopian borders and must obtain passports.

t is unclear whether the Ethiopian Athletic Federation or the Ethiopian government participates, or has participated, in age falsification at this level. Ash believes this is not a current practice. "I feel the government does a pretty good job of determining ages non-generously," he said. "The Ethiopian Athletics Federation also, in my experience, tends to be very above-the-table and honest." But Ash conceded that, even when acting in good faith, the government and the federation often lack the documentation and information needed to make an accurate age determination, leaving plenty of room for individual athletes to pull one over on them.

walshb

Sacksian wrote: »

His exact quotation is: "Another thing, and I might come under controversy for this, would be sorting out the right ages for so called “juniors” from the likes of Kenya and Ethiopia."

He doesn't mention cheating, corruption or any of the other stuff that you do.

He says "sorting out the right ages".

That's about as gentle (and understanding) as you can be about the problem.

There are documented facts for why Kenya and Ethiopia might have problems with birth registration, so to talk about "sorting out the right ages" is not particularly controversial, at all.

Did you read all the quote?

"It is so unfair. You can clearly tell there are 30 year olds competing at U20 level in World Juniors and Youths etc."

If that isn't a claim that cheating is happening then what is? In effect he has come out and claimed that the IAAF are sanctioning events where it's clear that cheating is occurring

And, he himself said what he was about to say was controversial.

nerraw1111

I thought the age thing was the least controversial part of the interview given the problems of age falsification.

For me, it was an Irish athlete admitting in front of the world, that he didn’t know who Eamonn Coughlan was.

Sacksian

What is he trying to say?

Not "in effect", but what does he ACTUALLY identify as the problem??

"Sorting out the right ages."

He didn't say his opinion was controversial, he said that he "might come under controversy for this."

And why?

Because someone, somewhere, is going to jump on what he said, misconstrue it for dramatic effect, and then ignore all of the available evidence so that they can continue to complain about a controversy which they themselves have created.

You are on your own.

That doesn't necessarily mean that you are wrong. But, on the balance of probability, in an evidence-based argument, it does mean you're less likely to be right.

walshb

Well, if I am on my own then the sport is fecked. The IAAF are a sham. Because, according to Travers and many more there is cheating happening in IAAF events. Clear cheating. That is damning. If the IAAF impose rules and protocols and countries pass those rules and protocols then are we not to take these events as being above board?

BTW, Travers did not produce any evidence. It's clear to everyone was the best he could come up with? Well, I hope to god it's not clear to the IAAF, because if it is?

thirstywork2

Good debate on letsrun here ;

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4368327&page=1

Sacksian

walshb wrote: »

Well, if I am on my own then the sport is fecked. The IAAF are a sham. Because, according to Travers and many more there is cheating happening in IAAF events. Clear cheating. That is damning. If the IAAF impose rules and protocols and countries pass those rules and protocols then are we not to take these events as being above board?

BTW, Travers did not produce any evidence. It's clear to everyone was the best he could come up with? Well, I hope to god it's not clear to the IAAF, because if it is?

I'm going to try this one final time.

Age falsification may not be deliberate - it is not necessarily the same thing as deliberate cheating.

It doesn't matter, the tests do not discriminate between whether it is deliberate or not.

But John Travers is suggesting that the tests are perhaps not used as comprehensively as they could be. The fact that the tests exist surely suggests that this is an issue for the IAAF too?

Deliberate or not, the issue for John Travers is "sorting out the right ages". He is highlighting an issue that the IAAF and athletics community should work harder at (and they acknowledge it is an issue).

Forget the bluster and outrage and focus on the intent of what he said.

Btw, I've seen some boxers suggest there is age fabrication in olympic boxing. Is this true? Clearly, the AIBA are a sham. Because, according to some boxers there is cheating happening in AIBA events. Clear cheating. That is damning. If the AIBA impose rules and protocols and countries pass those rules and protocols then are we not to take these events as being above board?

They claim that cheating is happening in world amateur boxing events. That is very controversial. If true, then it's disgraceful.

If it's the truth then amateur boxing is a farce. Bent, corrupt and pathetic!

walshb

Like I said, if the IAAF set rules, then they either can be passed or not? If the AIBA were running events that showed clear rule breaking then yes, it too would be bent. Until the organisations come up with the "perfect" system then that is how it is, and accusing countries of clear cheating with no evidence to me is wrong.