A bouncer question

Iang87

Hi I'm just wondering could someone tell me when it becomes legally acceptable for bouncers to tackle a person to the ground and punch them.

I put the query here because if I put this in after hours it would turn into a series of stories about bouncers.

ResearchWill

Iang87 wrote: »

Hi I'm just wondering could someone tell me when it becomes legally acceptable for bouncers to tackle a person to the ground and punch them.

I put the query here because if I put this in after hours it would turn into a series of stories about bouncers.

A bouncer has no more power than any other person. On the face of it tackling a person to the ground and punching him is a section 2 more than likely section 3 assault. Of course the bouncer can and may raise one of a number of defences including self defence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0018.html#sec18

Sets out defences for any person using force.

Iang87

What is classed as self defence? I actually didnt lay a finger on any of them, we were in a public street and one came from behind and caught me by the throat while the others dragged my to the ground

bidiots

Iang87 wrote: »

What is classed as self defence? I actually didnt lay a finger on any of them, we were in a public street and one came from behind and caught me by the throat while the others dragged my to the ground

Out of the blue, someone came up behind you and grabbed your neck, unprovoked? Something is not right here

Corkbah

OP you are probably leaving out loads of other details .... but probably best to chat with a solicitor and get advice from them.

Ps. did you or they contact the Gardai at the time ?

SB2013

Self defense is basically the protection of person or property.

There is also a citizens arrest that can be exercised in some circumstances.

Iang87

I was standing at the door asking why they told me to leave the bar (i since found out from the bouncer that I was being loud). Loud, in a bar, in Ireland, on St Patricks day. I was told to leave I got my coat and walked out. Outside I was questioning there decision and I wasn't screaming or shouting but all I was getting was blank looks. Eventually they tackled me after the guy got me from behind then while I was on the ground being held down by 3 of them another guy felt the need to start punching me.

I will be going to the guards soon though to make a complaint against them. I am only asking because I didnt provoke them and I didnt threaten them and I didnt insult them but I was still treated like that. I didnt lay a finger on any of them even after they let me back up. The guards were called at the time and they guard told my friend to **** off away who wanted to tell him what happened and went straight to the bouncers. Another guard asked me what happened I told him and he said sure go on up to a different bar altogether

BRAIN FEEDs

well done Ian. go to the guards. no point in going to the guards when drink is so to speak. best of luck.

SB2013

Iang87 wrote: »

I was standing at the door asking why they told me to leave the bar (i since found out from the bouncer that I was being loud). Loud, in a bar, in Ireland, on St Patricks day. I was told to leave I got my coat and walked out. Outside I was questioning there decision and I wasn't screaming or shouting but all I was getting was blank looks. Eventually they tackled me after the guy got me from behind then while I was on the ground being held down by 3 of them another guy felt the need to start punching me.

I will be going to the guards soon though to make a complaint against them. I am only asking because I didnt provoke them and I didnt threaten them and I didnt insult them but I was still treated like that. I didnt lay a finger on any of them even after they let me back up. The guards were called at the time and they guard told my friend to **** off away who wanted to tell him what happened and went straight to the bouncers. Another guard asked me what happened I told him and he said sure go on up to a different bar altogether

I somehow doubt that their version would be so rosey. Neither will that of the cctv most likely. If you want to make a criminal complaint about them then go to the Gardaí when sober or you can make a complaint to the owner or PSA.

Iang87

There version will be exactly like that and the cctv will tell the same story. Thats what happened

SB2013

Iang87 wrote: »

There version will be exactly like that and the cctv will tell the same story. Thats what happened

I'll just recap your story. You were asked to leave for being too loud (an accomplishment in itself on Paddys Day) and had a reasoned discussion with them outside, where you definitely didn't shout at them. For no reason at all, four of them attacked you out of the blue. The Gardaí arrived and despite the sober and calm nature of your friend he was told to get lost. You were told to go away also whcih you did without question.

I will guarantee you the bouncers will not tell the same story. I will guarantee you that the cctv will show more than you remember. And I guarantee you the Gardaí will not remember two good natured fellas who were hard done by. But like I said, you have many avenues to pursue if you believe your memory of something that happened after a day of drinking is accurate.

Iang87

SB2013 wrote: »

I'll just recap your story. You were asked to leave for being too loud (an accomplishment in itself on Paddys Day) and had a reasoned discussion with them outside, where you definitely didn't shout at them. For no reason at all, four of them attacked you out of the blue. The Gardaí arrived and despite the sober and calm nature of your friend he was told to get lost. You were told to go away also whcih you did without question.

I will guarantee you the bouncers will not tell the same story. I will guarantee you that the cctv will show more than you remember. And I guarantee you the Gardaí will not remember two good natured fellas who were hard done by. But like I said, you have many avenues to pursue if you believe your memory of something that happened after a day of drinking is accurate.

A lady from the local newspaper was at the table behind me when I was asked to leave and saw it all happen, she followed me to the next bar to let me know she would be writing about what went on about how I was thrown out for nothing and assaulted when I kept questioning them. It needs to be remembered it was paddys day and it was only half 8 in the evening so there was plenty of sober people around.

I wasn't thrown out for being drunk thats why I remember it so perfectly, so much so that another bar across the way saw what happened and when I walked there to go in after all this they just let me in, doesn't really sound like tha actions of doorstaff to a drunk aggressive person now does it.

chops018

Iang87 wrote: »

A lady from the local newspaper was at the table behind me when I was asked to leave and saw it all happen, she followed me to the next bar to let me know she would be writing about what went on about how I was thrown out for nothing and assaulted when I kept questioning them. It needs to be remembered it was paddys day and it was only half 8 in the evening so there was plenty of sober people around.

I wasn't thrown out for being drunk thats why I remember it so perfectly, so much so that another bar across the way saw what happened and when I walked there to go in after all this they just let me in, doesn't really sound like tha actions of doorstaff to a drunk aggressive person now does it.

So you had just been assaulted, and you then decided that your next decision would be to go to another pub and keep drinking?

Iang87

The guards advice was to go home or go to another bar because nothing would be done about it that night so yes I did indeed

Iang87

I dont exactly want a debate on what I should or should not have done after the fact.

My real issue is they will claim self defence however they attacked me first. Its also been established I wasn't thrown out of the bar for being drunk and disorderly, he said I was being loud. The guard that came must surely feel I didnt do much wrong because why else wouldn't he just arrest me, why would he let me move on so freely.

Something isn't quite adding up for me thats why I'm asking, also apologies if i'm taking a tone with people I dont mean to be but i've played this in my head constantly since and ended up waiting 7 hours for an x ray last night so Its a fairly sore subject for me you know.

Peregrinus

What you need is a witness who hadn't been drinking and who is not connected with you, and who will confirm your version of events when it conflicts - as it unquestionably will - with the version of events told by the bouncers.

Without that, all you have is your own testimony - the testimony of a person who had been drinking on the night in question, whose behaviour was considered disruptive enough to ask them to leave, and who didn't make a formal complaint about assault until several days afterwards. In the event of a conflict of evidence, this evidence will not be preferred.

To answer your original question, what you describe the bouncers as having done to you would be a criminal assault. But the guards will not prosecute unless they are satisifed that they can prove the assault in court beyond reasonable doubt. Your evidence alone, if contradicted by the bouncers, will not be enough to do this.

godtabh

Iang87 wrote: »

ended up waiting 7 hours for an x ray last night so Its a fairly sore subject for me you know.

I thought you went to the pub next door?

Either way drink was involved (regardless of the amount) and as a result the Gardai are less likely to entertain you

Iang87

godtabh wrote: »

I thought you went to the pub next door?

Either way drink was involved (regardless of the amount) and as a result the Gardai are less likely to entertain you

the following day went to the hospital, didnt feel the pain til the following day as happens so often with anything that happens (injury wise).

Its ridiculous that they wont entertain me because there was drink taken. If they tell me that is the case I will hypothetically put it to the guard that if me and some of my friends drink and hold one of them down and punch him I wonder what will happen us. Drink taken just roles reversed but the bouncer will be protected again, how does that work

Melion

Why do people continuously believe that they have been targetted unfairly by bouncers? You were doing something wrong, no doubt in my mind. I absolutely 100% do not believe you were just standing outside "talking" to them.

Hoboo

Melion wrote: »

Why do people continuously believe that they have been targetted unfairly by bouncers? You were doing something wrong, no doubt in my mind. I absolutely 100% do not believe you were just standing outside "talking" to them.

Obviously you must have witnessed the incident from start to finish to have no doubt in your mind:rolleyes:

Perfect example why people should be mentally examined before jury duty.



To the original poster, get as many witnesses as you can, even go and speak to the bouncers again with your iphone on record, you never know, most of them are thick as **** and would love to boast in your face. And dont let it drop.

Wasnt in Dicey Reillys / Krystle by any chance ? Best rep in town for assaults.

Melion

Hoboo wrote: »

Obviously you must have witnessed the incident from start to finish to have no doubt in your mind:rolleyes:

I have worked on doors for long enough to have absolutely no doubt in my mind about what i said.

Hoboo wrote: »

To the original poster, get as many witnesses as you can, even go and speak to the bouncers again with your iphone on record, you never know, most of them are thick as **** and would love to boast in your face. And dont let it drop.

Anything to back up this claim of yours?

Iang87

Melion wrote: »

I have worked on doors for long enough to have absolutely no doubt in my mind about what i said.




Anything to back up this claim of yours?

I dont suppose you were working a door in limerick sunday night Melion were you.

I started talking to them but they're sniggering and attempts to humiliate me outside angered me.

Regardless how I acted do you deem it acceptable for me to not lay a hand on you and you tackle me hold me down while another "security" guard punches me while i'm being restrained

Melion

Iang87 wrote: »

I dont suppose you were working a door in limerick sunday night Melion were you.

I started talking to them but they're sniggering and attempts to humiliate me outside angered me.

Regardless how I acted do you deem it acceptable for me to not lay a hand on you and you tackle me hold me down while another "security" guard punches me while i'm being restrained

No i wasnt.

When you got angry what did you do? Did you just keep talking calmly?

Curly Judge

Do you have form for this sort of thing?
I mean, are you by any chance on some kind of list?

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

Iang87

stayed relatively calm for another minute or two then one particularly pleasant guy came and told me to **** off that I was thrown out then I told him to **** himself he pushed me back and before I even raise a hand 3 of them have me on the ground.

Only to land a few punches on me and let me back up. Thats what baffles me why take me down to let me up, can only have been to land a few because contrary to what you believe the vast majority of these guys work in these jobs because they're not made for thinking.

Just like the little weasel thats the head of security stood behind them, see he does think.

IrishHomer

Curly Judge wrote: »

Do you have form for this sort of thing?
I mean, are you by any chance on some kind of list?

Any bouncer or doorman is offside if they touch any person on the street! They are only covered within the boundary of the licensed premises.

I worked on doors for 14years and I saw plenty of bouncers get sacked for running onto the footpath and street to intervene in trouble and then be immediately sacked the following day.

Iang87

Curly Judge wrote: »

Do you have form for this sort of thing?
I mean, are you by any chance on some kind of list?

No man, I've never been arrested in my life and never been thrown out of any bar in my life and i've been going to this bar for years

Melion

Iang87 wrote: »

stayed relatively calm for another minute or two then one particularly pleasant guy came and told me to **** off that I was thrown out then I told him to **** himself he pushed me back and before I even raise a hand 3 of them have me on the ground.

He pushed you back? Did you push him first? I thought he grabbed you by the throat?

Iang87 wrote: »

Just like the little weasel thats the head of security stood behind them, see he does think.

Icon?

Iang87

IrishHomer wrote: »

Any bouncer or doorman is offside if they touch any person on the street! They are only covered within the boundary of the licensed premises.

I worked on doors for 14years and I saw plenty of bouncers get sacked for running onto the footpath and street to intervene in trouble and then be immediately sacked the following day.

all of this was on the street, when initially asked to leave I got my coat and said can i talk to you outside only to be blanked and made a mockery of outside.

SO yes all of this happened outside with no scene being made in the bar

Miike

Iang87 wrote: »

stayed relatively calm for another minute or two then one particularly pleasant guy came and told me to **** off that I was thrown out then I told him to **** himself he pushed me back and before I even raise a hand 3 of them have me on the ground.

Only to land a few punches on me and let me back up. Thats what baffles me why take me down to let me up, can only have been to land a few because contrary to what you believe the vast majority of these guys work in these jobs because they're not made for thinking.

Just like the little weasel thats the head of security stood behind them, see he does think.

I know exactly where you're on about now and I've filed a complaint about the establishment my self, secondary to an assault. From my first hand experience the things you have in your favor are: (A) Gaurds arrived on the 'scene' and (B) You've gotten medical assistance after the assault (For the official paper work)

I suggest visiting a Gaurda station about the topic and contacting the PSA directly as speaking the 'manager' in this establishment is p*ssing against the wind.