GAA Congress 2013 - Black Card poll

Dublinfan

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2013/0108/361808-gaa-propose-new-black-card-offence/

is it time we seriously bring this in along with a second ref watching the game through a monitor ?
the amount of times you see players being pulled or held down while the referee has his back turned and nothing is said

the system isnt working and needs serious updating, if not this propasal what would you like to see to stop serious fowls?

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Dublinfan wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2013/0108/361808-gaa-propose-new-black-card-offence/

is it time we seriously bring this in along with a second ref watching the game through a monitor ?
the amount of times you see players being pulled or held down while the referee has his back turned and nothing is said

the system isnt working and needs serious updating, if not this propasal what would you like to see to stop serious fowls?

Aye those chickens need stopping alright. :pac:

Clareman

A lot of county grounds don't have floodlights and you expect to have cameras and monitors setup for another offical.

IMVHO, there are 7 officals on the pitch, the problem isn't that things aren't being seen, the problem is officals aren't doing their jobs right.

Mr. Wong

Umpires need to be given proper training and more power in games. The amount of off the ball pulling and dragging is ridiculous.

Dirty Dingus McGee

It should definitely be introduced , however I don't think it will get passed at congress as too many people who vote look after the interests of their own county and not the interests of the game as a whole. Thats why the rules weren't tried as county managers would start whinging about the rules and delegates would vote in accordance with what their county manager says and not what is good for the game.

randd1

I'd love to have the following rules brought in to the GAA;

- An extra official to keep track of who commits the fouls. 4 personal fouls and then you spend ten minutes in the sin-bin.
- The same official keeping track of time on the blood subs. Any more than 3/4 minutes, an official substitution has to be made.
- 10 minute sin-bin for fouling a player in goal scoring situations (professional fouls).
- No substitutions in injury time to prevent managers slowing down games.
- An extra two subs allowed per team when there's injury time.
- 10 minutes in the sin-bin for mis-timed shoulders instead of a straight red.
- Straight pick off the ground in Gaelic Football.
- 3 yellow cards, miss the next match.
- Squad numbers for the championship.

Squidgy Black

I don't see the need for a sin bin. If the foul was bad enough to warrant a player being taken off the pitch, send him off. Same goes for accumulated fouls, the ref will warn him and if he repeats give him a yellow.

As for the video ref, the floodlights in most venues are terrible, and it'd be an expensive system to set up in each venue around the country.

Dirty Dingus McGee

stetyrrell wrote: »

I don't see the need for a sin bin. If the foul was bad enough to warrant a player being taken off the pitch, send him off. Same goes for accumulated fouls, the ref will warn him and if he repeats give him a yellow.

As for the video ref, the floodlights in most venues are terrible, and it'd be an expensive system to set up in each venue around the country.

A lot of teams are very good at ensuring that the yellow cards their team accumulates get spread around and so nobody will get sent off.Effectively there can be 40 yellow cards handed out during a match without there being any punishment apart from conceding frees.This is not enough punishment for persistent fouling in my opinion.

Hibbeler

If the GAA concentrated on a small number of championship grounds (say 10 in total) and put in the infrastructure for video refs in those grounds first. Then the idea should be very doable.

This of course would limit the amount of grounds used for championship and some counties may be unhappy (I probably wouldn't include our own pairc tailteann for example). That goes back to the previous point made about counties voting in their own interests rather than the interests of the whole

Palytoxin

I wouldn't be on for the introduction of the sin-bin or this mandatory substitution thing at all tbh. A foul is a foul, and it's up to the ref to determine if it's a free, a yellow, or a red, I like it the way it is. I don't like the idea of the game being changed dramatically, call it sentimentality or whatever you want, but I wouldn't like the character of the games to be changed by lots of gradual changes, that could add up eventually. I see where it could be useful, but it's not for me.

As for the repeated fouling, I think it's fine the way it is, the ref can issue a warning, a yellow, and a red if he deems necessary. As for a bit of off-the-ball pulling or an odd foul here or there, it's often good to give a match a bit of competition and bite, it is a contact sport at the end of the day.

keane2097

There's plenty of scope for physicality within the rules, unfortunately the tactical side of the game has out-evolved the rules to the point where refs are powerless to effectively punish teams that step outside the rules in a clever way.

The black card isn't necessarily the route I would have gone down, but it's the right direction and would definitely give the refs the sort of clout they need to handle games properly.

keane2097

The biggest fear, probably the only genuine fear in fact, is that players making genuine tackles who mistime them getting flashed black cards by default. Instances like these end in yellow cards all too often already, hopefully the note in the suggested rule that black card fouls need to be deliberate is heeded.

ciarriaithuaidh

Definite no for me, and thats as a player AND a referee. It is unnecessary complication in my eyes. The rules that are there regarding foul play are largely sound already..the problem is non-application of those rules in a common sense manner AND inconsistency by referees.

I agree with a lot of the proposals the FRC have come up with such as the 30m penalty for obstructing free-takers/holding onto the ball...but I don't agree with the black card.

As someone mentioned already, there are far more important and practical changes that need to be made, such as ALL umpires for Inter-county c/ship games being trained properly, or better still, using qualified referees and not the refs father/son/cousin/mate from club.

Dirty Dingus McGee

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Definite no for me, and thats as a player AND a referee. It is unnecessary complication in my eyes. The rules that are there regarding foul play are largely sound already..the problem is non-application of those rules in a common sense manner AND inconsistency by referees.

I agree with a lot of the proposals the FRC have come up with such as the 30m penalty for obstructing free-takers/holding onto the ball...but I don't agree with the black card.

As someone mentioned already, there are far more important and practical changes that need to be made, such as ALL umpires for Inter-county c/ship games being trained properly, or better still, using qualified referees and not the refs father/son/cousin/mate from club.

The rules arent ok though.Some teams at intercounty level have copped that a yellow card is only a punishment if you get a second yellow and so players take turns to cynically foul the opposition.20 yellow cards could be given to a team and the team would not be punished at all.When a teams gets a goal scoring oppurtunity these days a rugby tackle is now being used as a way of preventinga goal being scored which only results in a yellow card.Its generally a 2 point gain for a team and barely any punishement, the Armagh Longford game a couple of weeks ago we saw some blatant fouls preventing goalscoring oppurtunitues and a yellow card as it currently stand is not enough fo a punishment.

ciarriaithuaidh

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The rules arent ok though.Some teams at intercounty level have copped that a yellow card is only a punishment if you get a second yellow and so players take turns to cynically foul the opposition.20 yellow cards could be given to a team and the team would not be punished at all.When a teams gets a goal scoring oppurtunity these days a rugby tackle is now being used as a way of preventinga goal being scored which only results in a yellow card.Its generally a 2 point gain for a team and barely any punishement, the Armagh Longford game a couple of weeks ago we saw some blatant fouls preventing goalscoring oppurtunitues and a yellow card as it currently stand is not enough fo a punishment.

I agree that Donegal for example, just haul people down to stop quick counterattacks. I agree with punishing those sort of fouls. The black card is just complicating things unnecessarily in my view though. Why not just the sinbin for a yellow card and a red for 2 yellows?
The problem these days with refereeing, is that almost everyone expects every tackle that leads to a free to be a yellow card. As far as I'm concerned to get a yellow card, there has to be A)A fairly bad or high tackle or B)A repeated series of more minor offences.
Give a yellow card for those and put the offender in the sin-bin for 10 mins. Teams who deliberately set out to tactically foul in a cynical manner,will be far slower to do so with the risk of playing a man down for 10 mins and it is far less complicated for all concerned.

antoobrien

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

I agree that Donegal for example, just haul people down to stop quick counterattacks. I agree with punishing those sort of fouls. The black card is just complicating things unnecessarily in my view though. Why not just the sinbin for a yellow card and a red for 2 yellows?

The worry about it is the club game, where below senior the ref is often the only neutral "official" at matches. the situation was so bad in Galway last year that a few of the junior A hurling teams had three people with them at each game specifically to be linesman & umpires.

While I think the sin bin is a good idea and would sort out a lot of cynical fouling, for any system with sin bins to work across the GAA we need to find a lot more neutral officials.

nice_guy80

referees fees for club games will have to go up to ensure they bring at least two umpires

and yes, something needs to be done to stop all this cynical fouling.

ciarriaithuaidh

Unlikely black card will pass now it looks like. The majority of county's voted against it and they constitute the majority of votes.

Dubliner28

Disagree with the black card. Its a farce IMO. cynical following on a player approaching the goal or on a break where the defending them have fewer numbers should be a yellow card. Simple. If other players see refs dishing out yellows it will stop them doing it.

Dubliner28

Mr. Wong wrote: »

Umpires need to be given proper training and more power in games. The amount of off the ball pulling and dragging is ridiculous.

Most cant tell if its a square ball or not in the pass ,never mind something happening 25 yrds away

Connorzee

Passed, 71% majority.

rebel girl 15

I'm glad it is passed - the cynical fouling is ridiculous. I disagree with that it should just be a yellow card, because that is no punishment. Its not like soccer where yellow cards mount up and after a certain number of yellows, the player gets a one match ban - if a player get a yellow, then all an astute manager does is change the player position to ensure that he would be not in a position that he would have to commit a cynical foul. Managers have out thought the rules, and found a way around a number of them to the advantage of their teams.

We have the same debate year after year about things that should have been done - well, did people bring it up at their club meetings? Did they then get their club to bring it up at county level?? People are looking for neutral umpires, get involved in refereeing, put yourself forward to ensure that there is a bigger group of official available. I do think that umpires and linesmen are not quick enough to tell the referee things that the referee may not notice off the ball - they have that power, and need to use it. If you as the linesman brings something to the referees attention and it results in a sending off, or free even, you will have the manager or selector or players warming up in your ear giving out about it. Its one thing being a referee and being paid to do that job, another thing to be there out of your own free time and doing a voluntary job.

Lot of people saying that the black card would fail, I thought it would pass, but not get the two-thirds majority needed - the fact that it passed at all is an unbelievable indication of people's opinion of the cynical fouling in football

Mr. Wong

Stupid decision. What about at club level where a team might only have the bare 15? They should leave the bloody game alone. This constant tinkering wit the most popular sport in this country is madness.

I hope it's met like the sin bin was, with wide-spread condemnation.

Hammer Archer

I'm leaning towards being in favour of it to be honest.
As rebel girl said, a yellow card for a cynical foul is no punishment whatsoever. Case in point was our qualifier game against Laois last year where more than half of Laois' team received yellows. They constantly dragged our players down when we began to break forward, giving them time to regroup. Yet every foul was committed by a different player each time meaning there was no chance of a red card being issued.
I'm just using this as a recent example which sticks in my mind. There are countless others out there.
I'm extremely surprised it got more than the two thirds majority though.

Connorzee

Mr. Wong wrote: »

Stupid decision. What about at club level where a team might only have the bare 15?

Then they'll have to especially stop their cynical fouling..

theoneeyedman

Imo the origional set up of a few years ago of the sin bin was the most obvious and best option here. To say it's too hard administered is to ignore the evidence of its use in ladies football.
However, not to do anything is not an option. The rules must be tweeked over time to keep up with the coaching and organising of defences in particular. Tactical fouling is an integrated part of teams strategy so it must be addressed. It'll be interesting to see how it works but .
What is tge timeline for implementation? When will it come in at different levels, club/underage etc....

unknown13

I take it that this rule will mean if a player is carded. That their teams sub count will go down and so they have really two proper substitutions.

Going to certainly change the tactics behind substitutions now.

rebel girl 15

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Imo the origional set up of a few years ago of the sin bin was the most obvious and best option here. To say it's too hard administered is to ignore the evidence of its use in ladies football.
However, not to do anything is not an option. The rules must be tweeked over time to keep up with the coaching and organising of defences in particular. Tactical fouling is an integrated part of teams strategy so it must be addressed. It'll be interesting to see how it works but .
What is tge timeline for implementation? When will it come in at different levels, club/underage etc....

Its coming in January 2014.

Sin bin is very easily worked at all levels of ladies football, it is implemented from under 14 level upwards. The cynical fouling is something that needed to be sorted. Very easy for clubs that only have the bare 15, don't foul cynically. Cynical fouls are deliberate, like pulling someone down when through on goal - people are losing sight of the fact that there still will be a yellow card for most fouls that warrant it, its very few fouls that will be punished by the black card.

Black card fouls:
deliberately pulling down an opponent, tripping an opponent with the hand, leg or foot, deliberately body checking an opponent and the use of abusive language or gestures and remonstrating with an official

Flukey

Yellow cards issued early in the game would reduce the need for black cards late in the game and reduce the cynical foul. We are all used to seeing players constantly cynically fouling throughout the game without sanction, only to finally get a yellow card late on. A cynical foul is just as cynical in the first few minutes as it is in the last minutes.

ghostdancer

why not just dish out yellow cards for the offences that now warrant a "black card"?

Fitzerb

Looks like Mayo / Tyrone will have to implement plan B (play football). The tyrone Judo club were opposed to the motion

rebel girl 15

ghostdancer wrote: »

why not just dish out yellow cards for the offences that now warrant a "black card"?

Because it doesn't adequately punish cynical fouls. Tactical fouling is part of teams strategies now - and the black card will hopefully cut it out

Dublinfan

will it be implemented though... i have seem matches with players held by the neck and held down ect and the ref said nothing... that needs to be sorted out too

Mr. Wong

Dublinfan wrote: »

will it be implemented though... i have seem matches with players held by the neck and held down ect and the ref said nothing... that needs to be sorted out too

Ger Brennan was it?

keane2097

Delighted.

Mountainlad

This is only going to make referees even more unpopular than they already are, especially the bit about 3 black cards and the next one is a red card. It's likely we'll see an increase in red cards. Might make the games better spectacles though.

Brian017

Slightly OT but re the Public Clock that was passed. Is this independent timekeeping ala ladies football and rugby? Or is it just forcing all stadiums to have a clock on display as a guide to the crowd with timekeeping duties still the responsibility of the ref?

rebel girl 15

I'm going to change the name of the thread to Congress Motions 2013 - lot of other motions that were there as well today

unknown13

Brian017 wrote: »

Slightly OT but re the Public Clock that was passed. Is this independent timekeeping ala ladies football and rugby? Or is it just forcing all stadiums to have a clock on display as a guide to the crowd with timekeeping duties still the responsibility of the ref?

I believe the game will stop at 70 minutes and a buzzer will go off after the 70 minutes. The clock will be very visible and I think it counts down instead of up.

Personally don't know what to make of this rule. It has the potential to reduce amount of replays which is good, I want to see it in action before I make my mind up properly about it.

keane2097

As far as I can tell certain things will cause the clock to stop as in rugby, with the game ending with the clock hitting 70.

rebel girl 15

The way it works in ladies football is that it counts down. The referee still keeps a time, and the clock is stopped for injuries and substitutions.

phkk

Any word on Derek Kavanaghs proposal which went to congress re All-Irelands being pushed forward 2weeks to end of August for the hurling etc? Twould be great for club players if approved

keane2097

phkk wrote: »

Any word on Derek Kavanaghs proposal which went to congress re All-Irelands being pushed forward 2weeks to end of August for the hurling etc? Twould be great for club players if approved

It wasn't adopted.

phkk

keane2097 wrote: »

It wasn't adopted.

Aw sh**e! That was a great proposal which meant that the All-Irelands would be finished two weeks earlier and club matches could be played sooner with more of a break between each round. That would give club players some time to recover from injuries/knocks between games instead of rushing them off one week after the other. Even in Kilkenny, which wouldn't be well documented but for the club player, it's so frustrating. For all the summer, you're lucky to get a league match, let alone championship match. So much training for so few matches which is a joke. Then when KK finish the All-Ireland series, the games are crammed together. Did anyone hear Derek Kavanagh interviewed during the week on 2fm? I thought he spoke very well and made so much sense. He was saying that his club team Nemo had to wait 17weeks between rounds for a game. Of course they didn't know when the game was going to be played so they kept training along... He was saying that he had 40guys in Feb training and 3lads in July training. Everything is geared for the county player to the detriment of the club player even though the GAA is made up of 95% club players???? Something will have to be done to sort out this carry on

ciarriaithuaidh

Pretty disgusted with the days events to be honest.

The 30m advantage for stopping frees being taken was IMO, one of the best proposals and it didn't pass...disappointing.

As said already, don't agree with the black card and don't see why the sinbin for a yellow card isn't brought in. We don't have a good enough system (or standard to be honest) of officiating for the changes that have been made in my view. It is unnecessary complication.

Of course, the whole system of who exactly the people voting on these issues are should be noted also...the opinion of players for example is almost totally ignored.

Dirty Dingus McGee

phkk wrote: »

Aw sh**e! That was a great proposal which meant that the All-Irelands would be finished two weeks earlier and club matches could be played sooner with more of a break between each round. That would give club players some time to recover from injuries/knocks between games instead of rushing them off one week after the other. Even in Kilkenny, which wouldn't be well documented but for the club player, it's so frustrating. For all the summer, you're lucky to get a league match, let alone championship match. So much training for so few matches which is a joke. Then when KK finish the All-Ireland series, the games are crammed together. Did anyone hear Derek Kavanagh interviewed during the week on 2fm? I thought he spoke very well and made so much sense. He was saying that his club team Nemo had to wait 17weeks between rounds for a game. Of course they didn't know when the game was going to be played so they kept training along... He was saying that he had 40guys in Feb training and 3lads in July training. Everything is geared for the county player to the detriment of the club player even though the GAA is made up of 95% club players???? Something will have to be done to sort out this carry on

This issue would be sorted if an agreement was made that if there is more than a one week break between county matches club championship can be paid.

It would also be fixed if the club season started in April/May and not February and league matches were played from April to August and championship was played in August and September when 90% of counties would be out of the championship.I honestly don't know why the club season needs to start so early in the year, it makes zero sense, we all know that club championship matches are mainly going to be played in the late summer early Autumn so why not just delay the club season instead of whinging about a problem that occurs every year.I doubt many club players would be complaining if the club season started later in the year when the weather is better (or supposed to be at least)

Tom Joad

I've mixed feelings about the black card to be honest but voted yes to the poll on the basis that something needs to be done about cynical fouling - Some teams are nearly having training sessions on how to spread yellow cards around the team - the Fermanagh team set a new benchmark for this last weekend imo (but they are trained by the master). It's ruining games but is also giving such a bad example to kids watching the game as its seen as a legitimate tactic to use so any attempt to address it can only be a positive.

But the biggest issue facing the game at the minute is the appalling standard of referring - its worse than I ever remember it especially at intercounty level - this year alone i have seen two of the worst displays of referring ever. A certain sligo ref at the weekend gave a player 3 yellow cards before he eventually got the line :eek:. So this is another thing they will have to keep track off or is it to be handed over to another official?

The referring of games needs to be addressed if the cynical fouling is to be eradicated.

Disappointed the 30mtr rule wasn't passed..

Connorzee

Give the the benefit of the doubt lads.. Lets wait and see how they do, better judgement at the end of next season. It's a bit like the soccer offside. People were up in arms about the changes they made, some people didn't understand it, and now it's seen as part of the norm.

VitaminC

If all subs have been used and a player receives a black card is it in effect a red card?

Also, is there any suspension for a black card or accumulation of black cards?

68Murph68

The full list of motions is at the list below

http://www.gaa.ie/content/documents/publications/motions/2013-Motions.pdf

I'm not 100% sure of the ones that got rejected/withdrawn

Apparently 10 were rejected, 3 withdrawn and 60 approved

The ones that were definitely rejected were

16
20
21
49
66
67
71
72
73

That's nine that were rejected.

There were three which were withdrawn.

I'm not sure which ones these are but if I had to guess I would say 68, 69 and 70

Big disappointment for me is that motion 16 didnt get passed. I wouldnt be surprised if this is passed in the future especially when the positive benefits of motion 17 are seen. Motion 16 would have helped with players acting the bollox and I really don't understand why it didnt pass, especially when some of the other anti-cynical motions did pass. Seems odd.

17 - For a player who commits a foul and is in possession of the ball, not to place the ball on the ground immediately and to retreat 13m from the ball.
Penalty: Free kick 30m more advantageous from the place of original kick, up to opponents’ 13m line

I think the mark motion 20 would have been an improvement on the game but isnt a huge missed opportunity.

I'm kinda glad motion 21 - removing the pickup off the ground didnt pass, as even though it is not that useful a skill, removing it would have been a benefit to the less skilled player, which isnt something I want to see.

Motion 35 looks to be one that didnt get a lot of notice but from my reading is aimed at improving things for the club players with financial penalties if county boards mess around with cancelling club fixtures during the Championship. It's a bit technical looking but starts "Club Games shall not be postponed because of a County’s involvement in an Inter-County
Championship, except as provided for within these Rules" Fingers crossed it improves things.

Overall I'd be hopeful that all of the changes will lead to a better game and punish the dirty cynical players to the benefit of the more skillful.

68Murph68

VitaminC wrote: »

If all subs have been used and a player receives a black card is it in effect a red card?

Also, is there any suspension for a black card or accumulation of black cards?

There is a suspension for a black card or accumulation of black cards.

Its detailed in Motion 12

Pretty sure from my reading its three ordering offs for Cynical Behaviour (three black cards) lead to an automatic one game ban.

I also think that 2 yellow cards now lead to an automatic one match ban, which in my opinion would be great, but I'm not 100% on that as it seems to have received little to no coverage for what is potentially a big change. Thinking about it it would be a great change as it would mean there is a proper punishment for constantly pickling up yellows in games. However the fact that there has been no mention of makes me wonder if I'm reading this correctly.