Governments raiding savings accounts to bail out banks

Cavehill Red

Ok, so the precedent is set. Cyprus is raiding the savings accounts of everyone in the country to pay off its bank bailout, and has acted to prevent people from switching their money out of the country.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2294388/ATMs-emptied-Cyprus-savers-learn-10billion-euro-bailout-agreement-includes-levy-bank-accounts.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/business/global/facing-bailout-tax-cypriots-try-to-get-cash-out-of-banks.html
What's worse is this was done with the express approval of the EU in order to save the ailing euro.
Does anyone seriously think that our government, a government which would tax your house and your water, wouldn't dip into your savings too?
Are you going to do anything to protect your savings in case they take action here, or are you confident it'll never happen?

dreamers75

have to have savings for that to be an issue

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Ha, savings! That should be in the "Celtic Tiger" thread!

Man, I wouldn't put it past our boyos to do the same. If it is successful for the Cypriots and the EU backs it, the good ol' Eire will do the same.

Gatling

And we thought we were raped by Europe ,they've shutdown atms and banned all electronic transfers of funds out of banks ,

If it happened here well some would come on here and whinge and moan ,some Facebook or twitter come Tuesday everybody(those who have) would go back to work and say well what are we suppost to do

My name is URL

I think our blanket and universal guarantee was probably worse. At least in Cyprus, the people being hit with the tax actually have a stake in their banks.

shopaholic01

I saw this earlier, for once in my life I'm glad I'm broke! Up to 9.9% of your savings taken in one chunk - that's got to hurt:eek:.

Cavehill Red

It's the way they do it too - at the weekend when no one can do anything about it except try to clean out the cash machines. No warning. That's what I'd be concerned about. One day it's the usual 'green shoots of growth' spoofing and the next it's 10% of your savings, thank you very much.
(Not that I have much, but still.)

sfwcork

Whats 10% of sweet fook all

Praetorian Saighdiuir

sfwcork wrote: »

Whats 10% of sweet fook all

Probably an I.O.U on your behalf, they will just backdate it when you get some savings

Gatling

Actually I'd be down to the community welfare officer looking for an exceptional need payment to replace the 9.9% of my saving, take from me I take from them win win

dxhound2005

Gatling wrote: »

Actually I'd be down to the community welfare officer looking for an exceptional need payment to replace the 9.9% of my saving, take from me I take from them win win

Probably not win win. You have to have over €100,000 to be hit with 9.9% so they might enquire could you not survive for a week or two on the other €90K.

Gatling

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Probably not win win. You have to have over €100,000 to be hit with 9.9% so they might enquire could you not survive for a week or two on the other €90K.

Simple tell them I'm a loan parent feck it id even throw on a skanger dress if be one ugly mother,
I've 50 kids now pay me ,meeeeeee bratzzz are bleeeeeedin starrrrrvin

mickdw

I genuinely fear for the whole european banking system after hearing this. People will be pulling their money out of the banks in large chunks and could well bring the whole thing crashing down.

We have a tax on homes that are bought with tax paid money. I can see a tax on tax paid savings coming here too.

What if our government see a trend re money walking out of the banks. What is the next step for government - limits on withdrawals?

RoverZT

mickdw wrote: »

I genuinely fear for the whole european banking system after hearing this. People will be pulling their money out of the banks in large chunks and could well bring the whole thing crashing down.

We have a tax on homes that are bought with tax paid money. I can see a tax on tax paid savings coming here too.

What if our government see a trend re money walking out of the banks. What is the next step for government - limits on withdrawals?

Your right.

Property tax is now completely insignificant.

**** just got real.

Anyone with money in the struggling EU countries is going to panic now.

They have destroyed all banking confidence for the sake of a few billion, spare change in the scheme of things.

****ing idiots.

Slydice

Yeah, jaysus... sure begorrah, can you imagine like... if the government here... you know... took money from our savings?

Wouldn't that be raising DIRT*!?


*"Deposit Interest Retention Tax (DIRT) rises by 3% to 33%"

Cavehill Red

Gatling wrote: »

Simple tell them I'm a loan parent feck it id even throw on a skanger dress if be one ugly mother,
I've 50 kids now pay me ,meeeeeee bratzzz are bleeeeeedin starrrrrvin

Amusing as your satirical bigotry is, it isn't lone parents who just stole 10% of Cypriot deposits. It's their own government.
I appreciate that deep down you'd like an easy scapegoat for the increase in your taxes, the decrease in your wages and the hike in living costs.
But as a lone parent myself, I'd appreciate it if you directed blame where it ought to be directed, at those who caused the financial crisis and those who are currently mismanaging it, and not at people like me.
Ta.

I Luv Crysis

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Probably not win win. You have to have over €100,000 to be hit with 9.9% so they might enquire could you not survive for a week or two on the other €90K.

You don't even need €100,000 for them to rape you, 6.75% on savings €0-€100,000 from my understanding. Even if you only have €1,000 they will still take €67.50 from you on Tuesday morning. Fairly serious precedent to be setting all the same, disguising it as "a war against the russian druglords" is even more sinister.

shopaholic01

Slydice wrote: »

Yeah, jaysus... sure begorrah, can you imagine like... if the government here... you know... took money from our savings?

Wouldn't that be raising DIRT*!?


*"Deposit Interest Retention Tax (DIRT) rises by 3% to 33%"

DIRT is on interest only, not on the capital.

RoverZT

Slydice wrote: »

Yeah, jaysus... sure begorrah, can you imagine like... if the government here... you know... took money from our savings?

Wouldn't that be raising DIRT*!?


*"Deposit Interest Retention Tax (DIRT) rises by 3% to 33%"

Dirt is on the interest of your savings.

Not your actual savings.

What they have done is a margin call

MadYaker

That's unbelievable! How has there not been all out riots???

Cavehill Red

Just thinking that there's always some people get screwed on the timing. Of course, the insiders will have redirected their wealth to Switzerland some time ago. But there's bound to be at least one poor b'stard who had liquidated their assets and gathered all of their savings together to try and fund a new life outside of Cyprus, and who just had their account hosed and is back stuck in the place now.

ejmaztec

Gatling wrote: »

Simple tell them I'm a loan parent feck it id even throw on a skanger dress if be one ugly mother,
I've 50 kids now pay me ,meeeeeee bratzzz are bleeeeeedin starrrrrvin

Trouble with that is your kids never pay you back what you lend 'em

I Luv Crysis

MadYaker wrote: »

That's unbelievable! How has there not been all out riots???

Couldn't realistically see the Irish rioting about this either, the people who WOULD actually riot - "Deco" and "Anto" from "Ballyer" are hardly gonna have enough savings to be affected. No.. yet again it will be middle-income earners, probably families married. both parents working, with 2 or 3 children who will take the hit.

Cavehill Red

I Luv Crysis wrote: »

Couldn't realistically see the Irish rioting about this either, the people who WOULD actually riot - "Deco" and "Anto" from "Ballyer" are hardly gonna have enough savings to be affected. No.. yet again it will be middle-income earners, probably families married. both parents working, with 2 or 3 children who will take the hit.

All classes have been out on the streets protesting in Greece and Spain.
And need it be said that public protest doesn't have to descend into rioting?

RoverZT

I Luv Crysis wrote: »

You don't even need €100,000 for them to rape you, 6.75% on savings €0-€100,000 from my understanding. Even if you only have €1,000 they will still take €67.50 from you on Tuesday morning. Fairly serious precedent to be setting all the same, disguising it as "a war against the russian druglords" is even more sinister.

Has it affected bonds?

National bonds.

I Luv Crysis

RoverZT wrote: »

Has it affected bonds?

National bonds.

National Bond.

007.

RoverZT

MadYaker wrote: »

That's unbelievable! How has there not been all out riots???

They should all be getting on the planes, trains etc.

Tearing Berlin down.

Gatling

Bigotry seriously - what lone mammies are now a religious minority

We really do have problems in this country then

Sergeant

Yet more outlandish nonsense from those Socialist ideologues over in Brussels.

Cavehill Red

Gatling wrote: »

Bigotry seriously - what lone mammies are now a religious minority

We really do have problems in this country then

Yes, you're a bigot. You're also a bigot who doesn't actually understand what the word means.
And yes, we really do have problems in this country, serious economic problems, and they aren't caused by single parents, whatever you might think.

Victor

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Does anyone seriously think that our government, a government which would tax your house and your water, wouldn't dip into your savings too?

You do realise that they have already gone after pension funds?

Cavehill Red

Victor wrote: »

You do realise that they have already gone after pension funds?

I do realise that. Bank deposits is a whole new ball game though, especially domestic bank deposits, and especially domestic bank deposits for all savings accounts, no matter what level of savings.
Any argument about getting those who can afford to pay (however just or unjust that may be in itself) goes out the window when the scalping shifts from pension funds and major deposits to 7% of everything on deposit across the board.

mickdw

Slydice wrote: »

Yeah, jaysus... sure begorrah, can you imagine like... if the government here... you know... took money from our savings?

Wouldn't that be raising DIRT*!?


[SIZE="1"]*"Deposit Interest Retention Tax (DIRT) rises by 3% to 33%"[/SIZE]

A smart arse reply, revenues links inserted all to prove your point, a point which has no relevance to the thread.

You need to have money for this to be an issue. In Ireland we are taking money from people who had no savings to save the banks.

Which is worse?

sock puppet

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Just thinking that there's always some people get screwed on the timing. Of course, the insiders will have redirected their wealth to Switzerland some time ago. But there's bound to be at least one poor b'stard who had liquidated their assets and gathered all of their savings together to try and fund a new life outside of Cyprus, and who just had their account hosed and is back stuck in the place now.

It wouldn't have taken much of an insider. There has been talk of something like this for some time, though I'm not sure whether many thought it would happen or affect everyone.

Cavehill Red

Deleted User wrote: »

You need to have money for this to be an issue. In Ireland we are taking money from people who had no savings to save the banks.

Which is worse?

Thing is, it's not actually an either/or. It's both. Cyprus will have to do all the same tax raising and expenditure cutting as us, and more as well as stealing people's bank savings.
What concerns me, apart from the Cypriot savers, is the precedent being set here. This is being done with the EU's permission, indeed probably at their demand. There's nothing to stop it being done here too.

imitation

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I do realise that. Bank deposits is a whole new ball game though,

Theres an element of "I don't have a pension" here too, I know this because I was thinking the same when the government pulled that number. I'm sure there were a lot of pissed off 50-60 years old though.

But yeah, getting hit in your savings account ? So much for buying that new car next week, or paying the gas bill, or sending jimmy to college. Mental, it will actually just cause a run on the banks !

Gatling

Cavehill Red wrote: »

indeed probably at their demand. There's nothing to stop it being done here too.

From all reports its was at there demand mainly the idea of the German government from fiance news reports,

If remember correct there was plans drawn up to deploy armed Garda and the army to try control possible runs on the banks here which its self is worrying,

Cavehill Red

I recall hearing the rumours to that effect, but I don't know if it was ever confirmed, even by a third party like the media.

VEN

unbelievable, really... hahahaha, unbelievable...

how did yer man Gadaffi go again? oh right.

was he talked out of that job?

oh right

keep it up now...

oppenheimer1

While the precedent set is dangerous, the Cyprus case is actually a very special situation. The Cypriots themselves have estimated that to bail out their banks would cost €17bn, equivalent to almost 100% of their GDP. Their banks require a bailout because of their exposure to Greece, and the losses imposed on them. Additionally, the Cypriots have a savings to GDP ratio somewhere north of 240%. This is far larger than Germany or Ireland which have ratios of about 120%. Cypriot savings were holding steady at a value of about 60% of GDP until the early nineties, when the value of deposits in their banks exploded. Many believe that much of this is hot Russian money. Non-Cypriot nationals account for just under 40% of all deposits but this doesn't include Cypriot companies controlled by foreigners which make up another significant chunk.

The reason for the expropriation of deposits is that it will raise about €6bn allowing the Cypriot government to borrow only €10bn to save their banks. This is an amount which is just about sustainable. The reason expropriation in this instance is clever is that it shifts a large chunk of the burden onto foreigners who were using Cyprus lax regulation to launder money, thus meaning EU citizens won't be paying for the whole bailout. Another reason that this method was used is that it would be politically impossible to for northern European governments to bail out Cypriot banks that have a large number of questionable characters on their books.

The reason such expropriation is unlikely in the near to medium term here, is that A) our banks are now well capitalised, They still have significant depositors from other European countries.

Gatling

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I recall hearing the rumours to that effect, but I don't know if it was ever confirmed, even by a third party like the media.

It was let slip in a rte interview about the bank guarantee night it seems most people either missed or didn't take notice ,

Cavehill Red

Gatling wrote: »

It was let slip in a rte interview about the bank guarantee night it seems most people either missed or didn't take notice ,

I've no doubt whatsoever it was true, given the people I heard confirm it. But I never heard it stated publicly is all.

heartseeker

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

While the precedent set is dangerous, the Cyprus case is actually a very SPECIAL situation. The Cypriots themselves have estimated that to bail out their banks would be 17bn"

ha what a laughable and lame excuse.I thought Ireland had the monopoly on being "a special case"
when IBRC went into liquidation this year and fine Gaels debt deal for our country fell through and it was therefore decided to bang the drum about a restructuring of debt onto our grandchildren.Yeah we soon found out just how special we were to the ECB.Seems to be an awful lot of "Special" unique" cases popping up over Europe.Im sure Greece,Portugal and Spain consider their situations special also indeed.17bn 100% of GDP??80 bn debt here in Ireland must have been around 300% of gross domestic product here not that anyone took notice.

Its being reported on BBC 5 live that the Cypriot parliament has reacted furiously to the decision from Brussels to take 20% from every bank account in the country.So which is it...9% or 20%???

hatrickpatrick

I am now absolutely certain that a major rebellion against the elite is an inevitability. Whether it turns violent or not remains to be seen.

I for one would be happy to lead such a charge. This has gone beyond insanity.

Cavehill Red

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I am now absolutely certain that a major rebellion against the elite is an inevitability. Whether it turns violent or not remains to be seen.

I for one would be happy to lead such a charge. This has gone beyond insanity.

A former Provo once said to me that he reckoned the global economy and banking sector would be reformed overnight if there was a sudden spate of sniper assassinations committed on central bankers, oligarchs and private bankers like the Rothschilds. He said he regretted that people like him had spent so much time shooting other people like him, be they loyalists or British squaddies, when the whole time they should have been aiming for billionaires.
I'm not endorsing an assassination campaign, but it was definitely food for thought. People might not be so insistent on beggaring entire nations to replenish their lost speculative investments if they believed there was a risk of dying as a result.

Simply put the banks run out of money.

Meaning the deposits or a portion of them are gone. You can take money from people with no savings by taxing them to give the people who had savings their money back.

Or you can have the better off people with savings and bondholders/investors take a haircut.

Or you can mix both methods.


Moral hazard abounds either way. Personally I think it is grotesque to make someone with no savings pay money into someone elses deposit account via taxes or any other method. I`m no leftie either I believe in letting the market deal with it. Had we taken this route back in 2008 it would have shaken things up and we would have had heads on plates and reforms. Our current path was the one of least resistance and worse it is a circular path.

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

While the precedent set is dangerous, the Cyprus case is actually a very special situation.

The real precedent was set by Ireland in 2008. Deposit holders taking a haircut after a bank failure is the normal course of events.

morlock_

If the Cypriot government are taking money from bank accounts, does that mean the guarantee no longer applies?

suicide_circus

The EU - great bunch of lads.

stoneill

I Luv Crysis wrote: »

Couldn't realistically see the Irish rioting about this either, the people who WOULD actually riot - "Deco" and "Anto" from "Ballyer" are hardly gonna have enough savings to be affected. No.. yet again it will be middle-income earners, probably families married. both parents working, with 2 or 3 children who will take the hit.

At least Deco and Anto have the balls to protest, must be because they are always being put down just because they are from Ballyer.