Price of cider in pubs

Jumboman

Is their any reason why a pint of cider is more expensive than beer or stout or is just that pubs can get away with charging more for cider ?

Ronan Raver77

Bigger tax on cider

Jumboman

Ronan Devitt wrote: »

Bigger tax on cider

Is that a recent development since the recession ?

Not sure how they can justify taxing cider more that beer or stout.

Ronan Raver77

Jumboman wrote: »

Is that a recent development since the recession ?

Not sure how they can justify taxing cider more that beer or stout.

I maybe wrong but thats the reason i seem to recall..Im a cider drinker so i obviously hate paying more:mad:

Frynge

Traditionally a keg of cider was more expensive than a keg of lager but if you bought 10 in one go.you got one keg free.
that is why cider is generally €0.10 more expensive than lager. But that practise has stopped. Publicans will continue to charge more for cider because people will pay it.

rubadub

Jumboman wrote: »

Is their any reason why a pint of cider is more expensive than beer or stout or is just that pubs can get away with charging more for cider ?

Blame the brewers before the pubs. They are setting the high prices which the publican passes on.

Jumboman wrote: »

Is that a recent development since the recession ?

Not sure how they can justify taxing cider more that beer or stout.

It is not recent, I presume you are a bulmers drinker. Bulmers was always the same or dearer than beers when I was growing up. This was before the tax hike. The tax hike was supposedly to put people off drinking cheapo ciders, "knacker drinking". Cider is a cheap drink to produce, bulmers has always been the standout oddball in that it is expensive. The same bulmers factory is pumping out 5.5-6% ciders which cost far less than it. Years ago bulmers suffered from a "knacker drinking" image and increased their price to make it appear a "premium product",m while really it is mainly water, sugar, a hint of apple juice and a rake of chemicals & dyes -shame they do not show this in their extraordinarily misleading adverts.

Then you have the oddity that is the bulmers pint bottle. Pubs traditionally rape people on longnecks. In the other thread on prices you will see people saying a pint in a keg might be €2.20 to a publican, and they can get longnecks for under €1 easily in a supermarket. Yet they often charge more for longnecks. Bulmers is odd since they have the longnecks, following their usual pricing a pint might be 5, a 330ml bottle, 5.20 and so they charge stupid amounts for pint bottles, up to €8.60 was reported in another thread. It really does expose the bizzare pricing in pubs.

BeerNut

Ronan Devitt wrote: »

Bigger tax on cider

Not really. Normal strength cider attracts a flat rate of excise duty of €80.16 per hectolitre while beer is on scale of €19.13 per % ABV. So pretty much any cider will pay as much tax as a 4.2% ABV beer, while stronger beers pay more.

Cider makers don't get the excise rebate that microbreweries are entitled to, but I don't think that really has an effect on retail price.

I don't see why cider should cost the same as beer just because it's roughly the same strength and is served by the pint. Cider making is a completely different process from beer brewing and is much more seasonal and susceptible to bad harvests.

Jumboman

rubadub wrote: »

The same bulmers factory is pumping out 5.5-6% ciders which cost far less than it.

Interesting what other brands of cider does the bulmers factory make ?

Geuze

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/duties/excise-duty-rates.html

Excise rates



Beer = 19.13 per hectolitre per cent of alcohol in the beer

Cider 2.8%-6% = 80.16 per hectolitre

Geuze

High price for Bulmers in pubs and shops is not to do with VAT or excise.

Nor is it to do with production costs.

They successfully market it as a "premium" product and so convince many (foolish) people to pay top price for it.

Fair play to them for making huge margins on the back of selling water + sugar + apples for high prices.

They also sell other ciders which aren't heavily marketed for much lower prices.

Geuze

The C&C Group produces a broad portfolio of cider brands.

The C&C Group owns the trade mark Bulmers in the Republic of Ireland. Bulmers Original Vintage Cider is the No. 1 premium cider brand and the no. 1 overall cider brand in the Republic of Ireland. Bulmers Ltd of Clonmel, Ireland is not connected with HP Bulmer Ltd of Hereford, UK.

Bulmers Original Vintage Cider produced by C&C Group, Ireland is sold outside the Republic of Ireland under the name Magners Original Irish Cider.

C&C Group’s flagship cider brand outside the Republic of Ireland is Magners Original Irish Cider, a premium Irish cider, together with Magners Pear and Magners Golden Draught. Magners Original Irish Cider is currently sold in the United Kingdom and over thirty other export markets and is the No. 1 premium cider brand in the UK. Magners products are manufactured in Clonmel, Tipperary, C&C’s Irish cider manufacturing plant. They are made using traditional ingredients and a traditional style of manufacturing process and fermentation.

C&C Group also produces the Gaymers cider brands. These include mainstream brands Gaymers, Blackthorn and Olde English and the premium brand Addlestones. These brands are manufactured at C&C’s UK cider manufacturing plant in Shepton Mallet, Somerset. C&C Group also manufactures private label brands for a number of off-trade customers.

In 2011, C&C Group acquired Hornsby’s, the number two cider brand from California in the United States. C&C Group is now the number two cider company in this market with an estimated 20% share in the rapidly growing US cider category. Hornsby’s currently has two flavour variants – Crisp Apple and Amber Draft – both of which are sold in a 331ml (11.2 oz) glass bottle format. Hornsby’s is produced in California.

Geuze

"Private label off-trade cider" = probably the ciders sold in Lidl, Aldi, etc.

Skerries

also they fob you off by saying you get more in a pint of cider as there is no head as opposed to lager

Jumboman

Can anyone recommend a real high quality "premium" cider ?

Does kopparberg count as high quality ?

Creamy Goodness

Jumboman wrote: »

Can anyone recommend a real high quality "premium" cider ?

Does kopparberg count as high quality ?

stonewell is a quality cider produced in ireland.

I don't really rate kopparberg ciders at all really. but then again i'm not a huge cider drinker especially considering the irish climate :pac:

BeerNut

Jumboman wrote: »

Can anyone recommend a real high quality "premium" cider ?

In the drinks industry "premium" tends to mean "advertised on television".

There's lots of great Irish cider around at the moment: Stonewell, as mentioned, and my favourites tend to be Tempted? and Armagh Cider. Double L is excellent too but can be quite difficult to get hold of.

Back-sweetened drinks like Kopparberg or Bulmers aren't really cider at all.

Balmed Out

I drink Stonewell myself which is very expensive but I would consider it far better value then the cheaper Bulmers.

Jumboman

Balmed Out wrote: »

I drink Stonewell myself which is very expensive but I would consider it far better value then the cheaper Bulmers.

How much is Stonewell in the pub or off licence ?

Heroditas

Stonewell is about €3.80 in off-licences. Well worth it though.

However, you could just get a load of apple juice in Lidl or Aldi, throw it in a fermentation bucket and add a sachet of yeast and you'd have your own cider!!*


* I'd like to add as a disclaimer that BeerNut pointed this out at one of the home brewing classes ... Just in case you kill yourself with the stuff.

hfallada

Jumboman wrote: »

Can anyone recommend a real high quality "premium" cider ?

Does kopparberg count as high quality ?

Most find kopparberg an excellant laxative rather than a cider. Koppaberg is nice but it has so much sugar and flavourings (which wouldnt really count as cider eg lime and strawberry) which mask the alcohol in it. I think Kopparberg markets its self as a premium cider when I dont find most of the flavours great

I dont understand if taxes are higher on cider how you can get 4 cans of druids which is 6% for €5 or the 2 litre bottle for €4 in a family run off licence and not a loss making supermarket?

BeerNut

hfallada wrote: »

I dont understand if taxes are higher on cider how you can get 4 cans of druids which is 6% for €5 or the 2 litre bottle for €4 in a family run off licence and not a loss making supermarket?

The tax isn't higher, it costs buttons to make, it has a tiny marketing budget and it isn't presented as a premium product.

rubadub

BeerNut wrote: »

Back-sweetened drinks like Kopparberg or Bulmers aren't really cider at all.

And because of this many bulmers fans might not like proper ciders, bulmers tastes more like cidona & vodka. Not that there is anything wrong with liking that. I know several bulmers drinkers who do not like any others.

hfallada wrote: »

I dont understand if taxes are higher on cider how you can get 4 cans of druids which is 6% for €5 or the 2 litre bottle for €4 in a family run off licence and not a loss making supermarket?

As Beernut explained earlier tax is about the same as 4.2% beer. Cider tax was increased years ago though, and beer left alone. It used to be very cheap relative to beer.

I have not seen any evidence of the supposed widespread below cost selling in supermarkets either (which I presume is what you meant by loss making). I have asked in many many threads and nobody can point to anything even hinting at it. Of course the publicans scream about it, and how its so unfair, this is another reason they get away with charging over the odds, people fall for their crap and feel sorry for them.

haymur

Has anyone managed to get the 18 pack of canned Bulmers in Tesco they advertised it from the 27/2/13 in the papers and on emails but I have been unable to get it in two large branches on many visits.It is still on offer in their ads

Jumboman

haymur wrote: »

Has anyone managed to get the 18 pack of canned Bulmers in Tesco they advertised it from the 27/2/13 in the papers and on emails but I have been unable to get it in two large branches on many visits.It is still on offer in their ads

I think you can also get that deal in lidl.

Jumboman

Heroditas wrote: »

Stonewell is about €3.80 in off-licences. Well worth it though.

However, you could just get a load of apple juice in Lidl or Aldi, throw it in a fermentation bucket and add a sachet of yeast and you'd have your own cider!!*


* I'd like to add as a disclaimer that BeerNut pointed this out at one of the home brewing classes ... Just in case you kill yourself with the stuff.

Just looked it up on an off licence website its 4euro I wonder what it costs in pubs ? It wouldnt surprise me if its 10euro in a pub given that bulmers pint bottles can be over 7euro in some pubs.

Cienciano

Geuze wrote: »

High price for Bulmers in pubs and shops is not to do with VAT or excise.

Nor is it to do with production costs.

They successfully market it as a "premium" product and so convince many (foolish) people to pay top price for it.

Fair play to them for making huge margins on the back of selling water + sugar + apples for high prices.

They also sell other ciders which aren't heavily marketed for much lower prices.

That's it. My mate calls it "knacker tax". Pricing something much higher than it costs in order for it to be "exclusive".
I actually like the chemical sugar water known as bulmers, but almost never drink it because I refuse to pay top prices for what I know is sugary shíte.
Bulmers isn't the only item with massive mark ups to keep it "exclusive", designer clothes are another.
Check out this about Tesco trying to sell cheap Levis jeans:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1261829.stm

Lyaiera

Jumboman wrote: »

Just looked it up on an off licence website its 4euro I wonder what it costs in pubs ? It wouldnt surprise me if its 10euro in a pub given that bulmers pint bottles can be over 7euro in some pubs.

Going rate I've seen it in pubs in Cork is from €5.30 to €5.80. The pubs would like to charge more but they know the market won't support it. It's expensive, but a really good cider. Go for the medium-dry (orangey red writing on the label) if you're not a cider aficionado. It seems most people prefer that variety. While supposedly restaurants are bigger fans of the dry (yellow label) for pairing with food.

Dublin Red Devil

When I'm on a night out I always start with a pint bottle of Bulmers on ice.

The price range I've seen for pubs here in Ireland go between 4.80 an 5.50 just going by my own experience

Jumboman

Lyaiera wrote: »

Going rate I've seen it in pubs in Cork is from €5.30 to €5.80. The pubs would like to charge more but they know the market won't support it. It's expensive, but a really good cider. Go for the medium-dry (orangey red writing on the label) if you're not a cider aficionado. It seems most people prefer that variety. While supposedly restaurants are bigger fans of the dry (yellow label) for pairing with food.

Thats good valve the pubs mustn't be getting much of a mark up on it.

rubadub

Jumboman wrote: »

bulmers pint bottles can be over 7euro in some pubs.

+1, I was mentioning how bulmers pint weirdly suffers due to the existence of the long neck.

Lyaiera wrote: »

The pubs would like to charge more but they know the market won't support it.

Jumboman wrote: »

Thats good valve the pubs mustn't be getting much of a mark up on it.

+1. In other threads people go on like pubs have fixed markups. I really doubt it is that simple.

I find in general the more expensive bottles of beer/cider are in the offie, the relatively better priced they are in pubs. I was in a pub the ohter day and the lads were getting "buckets" of heineken longnecks, 5 for €17, €3.40 per bottle, they were delighted. I was on budvar, €5 a bottle 500ml, I was pleased enough with that, but then copped on mine was actually cheaper per ml.

The budvar is usually 2.50 in offies, €2 if you get a 5 for €10 offer, while heineken is readily got for €1 a bottle, or down to 75cent often enough. My friend works in a bar and the owner gets it for that in supermarkets, sells 3 for €10.

Proper apple juice is expensive enough too, dearer than some watered down "ciders" per ml.

Balmed Out

Jumboman wrote: »

How much is Stonewell in the pub or off licence ?

Its €4.00 a bottle in the carry out off licenses. As for the price in pubs it varies massively. I was charged 4.50 a bottle in one west cork pub but im guessing it was a mistake. Generally seems to be 5.50 to 6 but I was in the vicarstown and they charged 6.75 and the crane lane where they charged 7.

Jumboman

Balmed Out wrote: »

Its €4.00 a bottle in the carry out off licenses. As for the price in pubs it varies massively. I was charged 4.50 a bottle in one west cork pub but im guessing it was a mistake. Generally seems to be 5.50 to 6 but I was in the vicarstown and they charged 6.75 and the crane lane where they charged 7.

Do you know of any pubs in Dublin City centre that sell Stonewell ?

Cafe en seine is listed as selling it, but I was in there a few weeks ago and the barman had never heard of Stonewell.

Colonel Sanders

Jumboman wrote: »

Do you know of any pubs in Dublin City centre that sell Stonewell ?

Against The Grain

Marcusm

rubadub wrote: »

And because of this many bulmers fans might not like proper ciders, bulmers tastes more like cidona & vodka. Not that there is anything wrong with liking that. I know several bulmers drinkers who do not like any others.

This is very unfair, Cidona is nowhere near as sweet as Bulmers!

Jumboman

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Against The Grain

How much do they charge for Stonewell ?

irish_goat

We got Stonewell Medium and Dry in at the Bull and Castle, charging €6.10 for it. Got rid of Bulmers while we were at it. :pac:

Saw my local selling Stonewell for €7.50. :eek:

Tube

Stonewell is €5.05 a 500ml bottle in the bar at the Lucan County (priced the same as a pint bottle of Bulmers). I actually find both Stonewells a little too sweet. He has Toby's aswell, production of which I understand to be erratic. Can't really remember it, it's been a while since I had it.

I understand virtually all ciders are backsweetened including all Irish micro cider, and the production methods don't vary much with scale, they just scale up, so Bulmers and Stonewell don't have the same gulf that is between Budweiser and Galway Hooker.

In my opinion what makes micro cider interesting is the constant variation, and while I really like Tempted? I wouldn't refuse a pint of Bulmers.

Jumboman

I was in fitzsimons last night for the first time in years got charged 610 for a pint:eek: now I remember why I use to avoid the place.

Jumboman

I got Stonewell for 6.80 in porterhouse last week it tasted similar to kopparberg but I couldnt really judge the taste of it because I had already drank 7 pints before it.

Insect Overlord

Jumboman wrote: »

I got Stonewell for 6.80 in porterhouse last week it tasted similar to kopparberg but I couldnt really judge the taste of it because I had already drank 7 pints before it.

Stonewell is much, much tastier than Kopparberg.

drumswan

Most Kopparberg isnt actually considered cider is it?

I like the Stonewell dry myself.

duffmckegean

The reasons Bulmers is more expensive than other ciders/beers are very simple..

Firstly, Bulmers takes 18 months to make fermentation and maturation included, whereas other cheaper ciders such as devils bit, even stonewall only take 1 month with no maturation.

Secondly Bulmers is made from fresh apple juice, which can only be made during the 3 months of harvest every year, whereas every other cider in Ireland, and 90% of the commercials in the UK are make from concentrated apple juice, usually sourced from the large orchards in eastern europe and stored as a syrup for years..

Dont knock the last remaining big brand Irish owned drink on the market!...yes, even the famous black stuff's profits go straight to Betty across the water!

rubadub

duffmckegean wrote: »

Firstly, Bulmers takes 18 months to make fermentation and maturation included, whereas other cheaper ciders such as devils bit, even stonewall only take 1 month with no maturation.

Secondly Bulmers is made from fresh apple juice, which can only be made during the 3 months of harvest every year, whereas every other cider in Ireland, and 90% of the commercials in the UK are make from concentrated apple juice, usually sourced from the large orchards in eastern europe and stored as a syrup for years.

Any sources for this info?

Bulmers certainly water down their juice, the little that they use, and and lots of sugar.

the beer revolu

duffmckegean wrote: »

The reasons Bulmers is more expensive than other ciders/beers are very simple..

Firstly, Bulmers takes 18 months to make fermentation and maturation included, whereas other cheaper ciders such as devils bit, even stonewall only take 1 month with no maturation.

Secondly Bulmers is made from fresh apple juice, which can only be made during the 3 months of harvest every year, whereas every other cider in Ireland, and 90% of the commercials in the UK are make from concentrated apple juice, usually sourced from the large orchards in eastern europe and stored as a syrup for years..

Dont knock the last remaining big brand Irish owned drink on the market!...yes, even the famous black stuff's profits go straight to Betty across the water!

Do you have a source for any of that info?
Even Bulmers don't appear to make the 18 month claim.
Nor do they appear to deny using imported apple juice/concentrate.

From BUlmer's website:

3. Why do We Use Original Oak Vats in Dowd's Lane?
The Magners Vat House in Dowd's Lane was commissioned in 1936, with the majority of Vats built in oak, handcrafted by coopers. The apple pressing is done using the traditional 'cheese' and is one of the core skills of a cider-maker. At Magners, the very same presses used to make Magners 50 years ago are still used today. This accounts for the consistency in quality of Ireland's most popular cider. Magners Irish Cider is fermented in the Vat House between 18 degrees and 24 degrees Celsius for a period of eight weeks. The fermentation process in the oak vats provides the distinctive and unique Magners taste.

Dowd's Lane provides the character of Ireland's favourite cider - Magners Irish Cider, and is therefore a closely guarded secret.



4. What Makes Irish Cider Different From Other Ciders?
Magners Irish Cider is fermented in the Vat House at Dowd's Lane, between 18 degrees and 24 degrees Celsius, maturing for a few months with samples drawn off and laboratory tested for purity and alcohol content. They are then put through several filtering processes. Other ciders are pasteurised as opposed to using a filtering process, and do not ferment in oak matured vats, which adds significantly to the blend.



5. Does Magners Use Irish Apples?
Magners Irish Cider is Ireland's biggest purchaser of Irish apples. The entire harvest from Magners' 250 acres of orchards, together with the total harvest of cull of apples in the Republic of Ireland plus a substantial portion of Northern Ireland's crop, is required for the Magners cider products.

17 varieties of apple are grown in the Magners' Orchards in Clonmel and are used to make the famous Magners brand. The 17 varieties of apple mature at different times of the season, thus allowing the orchard managers to pace the harvest and produce sufficient varieties to make up a traditional blend like Magners, throughout the year.

drumswan

Some interesting reading about Bulmers

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nothing-added-but-time-sugar-chemicals-and-sulphites-26326348.html

BeerNut

duffmckegean wrote: »

every other cider in Ireland ... are make from concentrated apple juice, usually sourced from the large orchards in eastern europe

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest you've never visited an Irish cider-maker. I'd recommend doing so.

Some info on what Bulmer's is made from here.

Tazz T

Does anyone know of any pubs in ROI selling Strongbow on draft? Beats Bulmers hands down.

eurokev

duffmckegean wrote: »

The reasons Bulmers is more expensive than other ciders/beers are very simple..

Firstly, Bulmers takes 18 months to make fermentation and maturation included, whereas other cheaper ciders such as devils bit, even stonewall only take 1 month with no maturation.

Secondly Bulmers is made from fresh apple juice, which can only be made during the 3 months of harvest every year, whereas every other cider in Ireland, and 90% of the commercials in the UK are make from concentrated apple juice, usually sourced from the large orchards in eastern europe and stored as a syrup for years..

Dont knock the last remaining big brand Irish owned drink on the market!...yes, even the famous black stuff's profits go straight to Betty across the water!

Load of Bull. Bulmers is so expensive because they want to market it as a premium product. There's little variance in the cost of Bulmers making linden Village, Druids or any of the rest the 'stuff' they produce. Its purely and simply marketing to the on trade especially.

If they sold it too cheaply in the off trade their on trade business would suffer massively. Thats why we dont see linden, druids etc in bars as it is an off trade product simply there to appeal to the consumer looking for cheap access to alcohol and little else.

I wouldnt even class bulmers as a cider, I would put it next to wkd and smirnoff ice on the shelves if I had my way. The difference between bulmers and ciders like stonewell, tempted and english ciders (which sadly we do not have enough of over here) in terms of quality is massive.

Complete totally wrong what you said about how other ciders in ireland are made too. I have seen two operations first hand

irish_goat

duffmckegean wrote: »

Dont knock the last remaining big brand Irish owned drink on the market!...yes, even the famous black stuff's profits go straight to Betty across the water!

Being Irish owned does not automatically mean we should all love the stuff, but regardless, most of Bulmers/Magners is owned by British investment banks.

I would guess that the largest Irish owned drinks company is Carlow Brewing Company(O'Hara's).

Blut2

I had a bottle of Stonewell last night after seeing all the recommendations in this thread and it was fantastic. I wouldnt usually be a fan of cider (well, based on previous experience of Kopparberg/Bulmers/Strongbow) but this was really, really good - a completely different drink. Cost 4eur for a pint bottle though, and this from a supermarket. Bit excessive.

duffmckegean

Believe what you want to believe, but i have worked in cider production for the last number of years both here and in the UK and the way Bulmers is made is an extremely expensive production method, compared to the rest.

And strongbow as a premium cider? don't make me laugh.. anyone with the most basic tasting pallet can point out the glaring inclusion of sweeteners (most probably saccharin and A-sulphamine K).
That's where your "piercing refreshment" is coming from, not the inclusion of Browns,Dabs,or any high tannin Bittersweet apple.