visonic powermax complete or powermaster 10/30

bazbrady

Hi guys,
So ive installed a couple of visonic alarms before and very happy with their cost and reliability .I have to install a wireless alarm soon and wondering should i go for the new range visonic powermaster g 10 and 30 or just stick with the complete model,im wondering is the complete going to be phased out in favour of these new model powermaster?.i take it the powermaster models are more expensive? ,im not looking for anything too high end and the complete would suffice for the needs of this persons home.i have also looked at the hkc quantum kit and it seems a good bit dearerespecially when you add on extra pirs contacts etc.also the hkc wireless inertia door contact seems very big not discrete.also ive heard good reports about honeywell wireless kits,an installer friend is using these instead of hkc ,reckons they are more reliable and has less call backs with issues not that he has many anyway.anyway just looking for advice cheers.:)

altor

bazbrady wrote: »

Hi guys,
So ive installed a couple of visonic alarms before and very happy with their cost and reliability .I have to install a wireless alarm soon and wondering should i go for the new range visonic powermaster g 10 and 30 or just stick with the complete model,im wondering is the complete going to be phased out in favour of these new model powermaster?.i take it the powermaster models are more expensive? ,im not looking for anything too high end and the complete would suffice for the needs of this persons home.i have also looked at the hkc quantum kit and it seems a good bit dearerespecially when you add on extra pirs contacts etc.also the hkc wireless inertia door contact seems very big not discrete.also ive heard good reports about honeywell wireless kits,an installer friend is using these instead of hkc ,reckons they are more reliable and has less call backs with issues not that he has many anyway.anyway just looking for advice cheers.:)

The Powermaster will be a cut above the older complete system when they have shock and inertia/contacts sensors for the system. It is also a two way system for the sensors, no sleep mode on detectors. As it is, all you would be able to install is contacts and motion along with safety devices. That is no real protection for any house. So for that reason alone the complete system is the one out of the Visonics You may be better off installing. I use the HKC Quantum kits and to be honest have had no problems with them. Price wise the two system would not have that much of a difference depending on what you need as extras.

KoolKid

bazbrady wrote: »

Hi guys,
So ive installed a couple of visonic alarms before and very happy with their cost and reliability .I have to install a wireless alarm soon and wondering should i go for the new range visonic powermaster g 10 and 30 or just stick with the complete model,im wondering is the complete going to be phased out in favour of these new model powermaster?.i take it the powermaster models are more expensive? ,im not looking for anything too high end and the complete would suffice for the needs of this persons home.i have also looked at the hkc quantum kit and it seems a good bit dearerespecially when you add on extra pirs contacts etc.also the hkc wireless inertia door contact seems very big not discrete.also ive heard good reports about honeywell wireless kits,an installer friend is using these instead of hkc ,reckons they are more reliable and has less call backs with issues not that he has many anyway.anyway just looking for advice cheers.:)

I've installed the Powermaster & tried out some of their shock sensors. IMO it would be worth waiting for.Some nice extra features & cost wise they are cheaper than the Quantum and also very close to the Powermax. The Powermaster 30 will be the better panel with the option of a wired bell as well.

John Kelly of

Is it true that if you use the voice dialler option all you hear at the other end of the line is a siren noise? They haven't included a voice message to tell you which zone was activated as they considered it too expensive.

KoolKid

I don't think so. Are you confusing it with the GE system?

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

I've installed the Powermaster & tried out some of their shock sensors.

Are there shock sensors available for the Powermaster system?

altor

John Kelly of wrote: »

Is it true that if you use the voice dialler option all you hear at the other end of the line is a siren noise? They haven't included a voice message to tell you which zone was activated as they considered it too expensive.

You add your own voice message.
Alarm activation, Panic activation at your address.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Are there shock sensors available for the Powermaster system?

Not yet.

bazbrady

any idea on when the shock sensors will be available,also can i use the one hard wired zone on the powermaster 10 to install a wired bell.if not im thinking maybe with the fact visonic say 8 years for battery life i might just live with the wireless bell as the 10 is a bit cheaper than the 30 and not a huge difference from what i can see or am i missing something ?

John Kelly of

KoolKid wrote: »

I don't think so. Are you confusing it with the GE system?

No I just remember Andy Bromley saying something about the Powermaster not giving details of zones over voice dialler but not sure on it as I haven't used Powermaster.

John Kelly of

altor wrote: »

You add your own voice message.
Alarm activation, Panic activation at your address.

So you just hear your own voice then giving a basic message? It doesn't go on to detail the zones which caused the activation?

Thunderbird2

Visonic sensors have no pulse detection .
Wouldn't recommend this system unless you were only using reeds , pirs or acoustic glass break detectors ...

KoolKid

You wouldn't recommend Visonic shock sensors unless your only using contacts???:eek:
Contacts & PiRs would be a worse combination also. The contact would not activate unless the window contact was opened and a PiR won't activate until someone is in the house. How is this better than a shock and contact?
And these recommendations are based on you installing how many systems?

Here is the manual for these sensors if anyone wants to understand how they work.

KoolKid

I

John Kelly of wrote: »

No I just remember Andy Bromley saying something about the Powermaster not giving details of zones over voice dialler but not sure on it as I haven't used Powermaster.

'll have to check that with Andy. The current Powermax is an automated voice. Recording your own message is a bit of a step backwards if true.
There will be no option to add a hardwired on the Powermaster 10.

bazbrady

in respect of the powermaster range 10 and 30, can the gsm module text the homeowner the zone that is in alarm or is it just a general common alarm text on these new model panels?

KoolKid

AFAIK It will text the zone information.

altor

John Kelly of wrote: »

So you just hear your own voice then giving a basic message? It doesn't go on to detail the zones which caused the activation?

That is correct John, you record the message: Alarm activation at address..
If you add the GSM you can do voice and get the same message or set up the text which will give zone number and the description you have it programmed for.

altor

bazbrady wrote: »

in respect of the powermaster range 10 and 30, can the gsm module text the homeowner the zone that is in alarm or is it just a general common alarm text on these new model panels?

The GSM will send the text with the zone name and number.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

That is correct John, you record the message: Alarm activation at address..
If you add the GSM you can do voice and get the same message or set up the text which will give zone number and the description you have it programmed for.

Are you sure?
Is it not the same as the Powermaster with the generated message with audio zone descriptions as programmed into the panel?

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

Are you sure?
Is it not the same as the Powermaster with the generated message with audio zone descriptions as programmed into the panel?

Just the voice message or zone name and number with the GSM.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Just the voice message or zone name and number with the GSM.

I can't remember it coming up in the training or the testing (Perhaps another lesson is required:o)
I though the voice dialler worked the same as the Powermax.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

I can't remember it coming up in the training or the testing (Perhaps another lesson is required:o)
I though the voice dialler worked the same as the Powermax.

Better off waiting the the Inertia/contacts are released, will need a refresher myself too

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Better off waiting the the Inertia/contacts are released, will need a refresher myself too

I wouldn't be installing them without shocks...
Nearly there now I hope.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

I wouldn't be installing them without shocks...
Nearly there now I hope.

As with everything

Thunderbird2

KoolKid wrote: »

You wouldn't recommend Visonic shock sensors unless your only using contacts???:eek:
Contacts & PiRs would be a worse combination also. The contact would not activate unless the window contact was opened and a PiR won't activate until someone is in the house. How is this better than a shock and contact?
And these recommendations are based on you installing how many systems?

Here is the manual for these sensors if anyone wants to understand how they work.

No pulse so there useless really .. Acoustic glass breaks would work just as well ...
Wouldn't touch visonics one way gear either way ..... not after recent " discoveries" . Just because its up to standards doesn't mean it's good ...
Il gladly pm you info if you'd like ...

John Kelly of

The lack of pulse and the poor level of programming and overall control over the shock sensors was the reason I quit them as well. I wouldn't say they are useless, I mean they do work to an extent - just not as good as quantum. The lack of a voice library is a backward step as well.
If only quantum had a wireless external siren that would last 8 years that would be the complete package.

KoolKid

Have you seen and used the Powermax sensors. There is much more control. They are also programmable at the unit itself. I wouldn't pay any attention to someone saying they are useless. Especially when they are not an installer and have probably never used them.

John Kelly of

Yes I have used them and I thought the whole calibrating process was primitive in this day and age.

KoolKid

I liked the idea of the display on board. Found them straightforward enough.
The panel not being too easy and the electricians favourite can be a good thing.

bazbrady

just been on visonic.com website and the shocks for powerg models are available on the site anyway http://www.visonic.com/Data/Uploads/SD_304_PG2_Data_Sheet_English.pdf

John Kelly of

And they are cheaper which helps. Shocks aren't really Visonic's priority though, as Ireland is the only place where they are widely used and Ireland is only a drop in the ocean to them. That's the reason there are still no shocks yet for the powermaster I suppose.

KoolKid

Yes, the big difference in the price of the sensors is a major factor.
To clarify on the self monitoring.
The Powermaster 10 is the one that just plays a siren. The same as the Express.
The Powermaster 30 is the same as the Powermax with voice announced zone description.

Thunderbird2

haha ..... Plenty of experience with them ..
Just because you install them and follow the same routine when installing them doesn't mean you've had a proper look at them and understand in depth how exactly they work ...
No need to be sour about it
Funny though how I seem to be teaching you The installer a few things RE jamming one way sensors & the UPC phone line fault detection ...... At least I know the limits of the gear I recommend ....

Go for 2 a way system ...ie the quantum .
Pulse detection is a very important feature
Needed for if the glass is cut which creates smaller vibrations (pulses) the visonic system won't detect these small vibrations therefore relying on a pir as a back up .

KoolKid

TB you suffer from tunnel vision and you are unwilling to change and learn. As usual you ignore the questions and go on about how great you are and how much you think you know. How many Visonic Powermaster sensors have you installed and used?
Bringing up arguments from other threads really is a little childish, that probably comes from your lack of experience in general. But seeing as you feel it's important to mention I will again acknowledge I agreed with your point re a UPC modem not registering a line fault if the unit is powered on . That was once we got away from bringing IP into it.
You claim to know what you recommend?
How many quantum's have you installed?
I have 20 years + experience in this industry.
A little more than one poking around a panel at home or on a bench...
Oh, and 1more question. What exactly do you think I'm sour about? That's a few times you mentioned it..

bazbrady

just to point out visonic was established in 1973 and was formed as a private israel security company with over 90 registered patents and 40 additional patents being examined.they have huge history in the security field with alot of other companies using their technology after patents run out.im not going to get drawn into arguements comparing to hkc but im from an instrument engineering background working in pharma with alot of friends working abroad in technical areas where visonic is highly regarded and respected,hkc is a good company but there are also many other quality alarm systems in the irish market and from what i have seen first hand are alot of electrician friends of mine who got into security buy hkc as its sold in most electrical wholesalers and is irish and they stick with what they know.again there are many good makes of alarms from what i can see with pros and cons..!!!!!rant over

KoolKid

I would agree 100 per cent. Generally I find HKC users either very stuck in their ways or else they will admit that they know it's not the best but they want the easy solution, like the electricians.
Most who are critical of Visonic aren't experienced enough or know the industry well enough to understand Visonics profile.

altor

The Visonic sensors are a cheaper alternative. No pulse on a detector it a let down as it is something that is needed. Again it is a cheaper option and I guess you get what you pay for. When given the alternatives a customer will always spend the extra money on a better system if they have it.
That is if they have being given this option.

Now Koolkid, to say that installers only install what they know is a bit of a farce.
I have installed many different wire free systems be that from the Eircom to Visonic range. Like most installers I install what I find the most reliable, The HKC may cost more but you get what you pay for.

John Kelly of

Agree totally, I installed Visonic for a while so I could give more competitive quotes or give the same quotes and make more money, but now I advise customers to go for Quantum because it is better system when it comes to shock sensors among other things.

altor

It is a money saver and a lot of company's are using the cheaper systems to get jobs plus to make more money.

Right or wrong that is that company's opinion.

I would advise the Quantum over the Complete system too.

Thunderbird2

KoolKid wrote: »

TB you suffer from tunnel vision and you are unwilling to change and learn. As usual you ignore the questions and go on about how great you are and how much you think you know. How many Visonic Powermaster sensors have you installed and used?
Bringing up arguments from other threads really is a little childish, that probably comes from your lack of experience in general. But seeing as you feel it's important to mention I will again acknowledge I agreed with your point re a UPC modem not registering a line fault if the unit is powered on . That was once we got away from bringing IP into it.
You claim to know what you recommend?
How many quantum's have you installed?
I have 20 years + experience in this industry.
A little more than one poking around a panel at home or on a bench...
Oh, and 1more question. What exactly do you think I'm sour about? That's a few times you mentioned it..

20 + years in the industry that's impressive.

Surely you are not installing these systems without shock sensors ?( they aren't available I thought? )
I know what I recommend . I keep in touch with HKC and the work they do .( incredible company )
Strange how you have 20+ years in the industry but yet the chap who pokes around at panels on a bench discovered the problem with the UPC line and diallers and how easily one way systems can be jammed with a common household appliance. Amazing the secrets that poking reveals . Irrelevant to how many I've operated I still know in dept how they work and there limits So Of course I'm willing to learn .
So again what do you think of visonics systems and also the lack of Pulse detection ?

Thunderbird2

In fairness that's true ... They are cheap and cheerful .....

KoolKid

Scallykelly. By any chance are you a rep for someone else.
Get a better attitude or don't post here.

scallykav

KoolKid wrote: »

Scallykelly. By any chance are you a rep for someone else.
Get a better attitude or don't post here.

no not all...work as an elec/alarm installer...just annoyed at sum peoples blinkered view on certain things...

KoolKid

scallykav wrote: »

no not all...work as an elec/alarm installer...just annoyed at sum peoples blinkered view on certain things...

I know how you feel. HKC users are the often worst offenders for that.
A company charging less does not automatically mean you can accuse them of using cheap equipment.
Siemens PiRs & contacts are cheaper than HKC. Does that mean they are using cheap & inferior components. have you ever considered that maybe HKC are just dearer? Like the way the cost of an S22 quadrupled overnight.:rolleyes:

Thunderbird2

KoolKid wrote: »

I know how you feel. HKC users are the often worst offenders for that.
A company charging less does not automatically mean you can accuse them of using cheap equipment.
Siemens PiRs & contacts are cheaper than HKC. Does that mean they are using cheap & inferior components. have you ever considered that maybe HKC are just dearer? Like the way the cost of an S22 quadrupled overnight.:rolleyes:

The chip in the S22 is what made the price difference.
It is an obsolete chip that cant be got.

I am very very interested to hear your views about the pulse on the Visonic detectors and again what you think of the system overall?

KoolKid

Thunderbird2 wrote: »

The chip in the S22 is what made the price difference.
It is an obsolete chip that cant be got.

A small chip like that goes up by €25 + Twice the price of the entire unit.
If you going to believe that you should do some more research.
The Chinese are making DVRs for that price...

Thunderbird2 wrote: »

I am very very interested to hear your views about the pulse on the Visonic detectors and again what you think of the system overall?

I think the system overall is good.They now have 2 way which puts the old argument to bed here anyway. The programming features are good & the magnetic tamper feature is good. In relation to pulse here is Visonics line on it.
The detector’s advanced digital processing uses a piezo shock sensor to precisely detect and analyze gross attacks or a series of low-level shocks while ignoring background vibrations,
While not having a separate pulse setting, as such,from testing I am happy with the protection it provides. I would ask others to test them before jumping on the band wagon.
Anyone who does some research on Vison will see there are a very reputable & respected company within the wireless security industry.

Thunderbird2

€13 - €25

I was really referring to there other systems since the shocks aren't available for the power master so they don't have two way wireless shocks..... Is it not a low end system ? Last resort?

KoolKid

Thunderbird2 wrote: »

€13 - €25

I was really referring to there other systems since the shocks aren't available for the power master so they don't have two way wireless shocks..... Is it not a low end system ? Last resort?

I find the Powermax a good reliable system. I've had no major issues with it.
Is Visonic a low end last resort system . I have 100s of these installed and I have to say no. How many have you installed that you are basing your opinion on?
Low end ,last resort systems would be the likes of This or This
Again , I would ask that you do your research on the Visonic /Tyco brand.

Thunderbird2

Unfortunately one of those systems you mentioned is actually as reliable as the power max ... The response systems are 868mhz... Built in diallers .... Just not made to en50131 but they are made to a British standard. Option to control lights ect . But cannot use shock sensors .
Please remember that just because something is made to meet a certain standard doesn't mean it's top of the range.
There are actually hundreds of these used in the UK and companies do install them (both systems) .



Third one is quite interesting too

Thunderbird2

Sorry this one
Glad you agree

KoolKid

I base my opinions on my experience not whether they conform to standards. How many installations are your opinions based on?
Again I ask you to research the brands you are talking about. Comparing Yale or Response to Visonic really shows how little you know about this industry.
Maybe that's why you keep avoiding the questions about how may Visonic systems you have installed and worked on to validate your opinions.