Transgender and sports

Ush1

With a couple of transgender threads doing the rounds and the whole concepts of there being little deliniation anymore, it got me thinking about where men and women are seperated for reasons of equality in of themselves.

The first story is one from California:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/colleges/17011957-419/transgender-player-attains-college-basketball-first.html

This is a 50 year old, desert storm veteran who is six foot six and two hundred and twenty pounds, playing college basketball against girls in or around their early twenties.

This next story is even more intriguing:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Transgender-MMA-Fighter-Fallon-Fox-Hopes-to-Compete-at-Highest-Level-50759

An MMA cage fighter, born a man but now recognised as a woman and fighting other women. She obviously has to conform to a weight class but is this fair?

She will have the bone density and structure of a man and be able to legally beat up women. One of her first fights she knocked the other woman out brutally in 39 seconds.

My personal opinion is that it's not fair and can see it causing problems in many sports.

At a recent athletics competition there was a female runner who had a lot of muscle and masculine features, winning many events. When tested, she was chromosomally actually male, but she had female organs and so I don't think it's as cut dry.

Opinions?

kneemos

Always check for penis.

pablohoney87

Of course its unfair. Although I cant see a problem with the MMA Fighter. The other fighters management do have to agree to the fight also.

And what idiots in their right mind would do that?

super_furry

It's a tough one and maybe a decision that's best made by sports scientists. I mean male athletes and competitors seek to gain and advantage over their rivals by doping with testosterone. If some is born male and has had two or three decades of naturally higher testosterone levels - especially during the formative years of their bones and muscles - then they may well have what is considered an unfair advantage over naturally born women.

Links234

This has been doing the rounds on Reddit as of late, so I'm just going to post a response from Reddit that's far better than anything I could post:

Transsexual women on HRT for more than 2 years have the same levels of testosterone that cis women do. These trans women also often have lower levels of total and calculated free testosterone (both < 0.001) than ovulating women, the peak of the hormone cycle.

The IOC which is the deciding body for the Olympics tested trans women and their body mass/muscle mass extensively before making the decision to accept them as physically women. Muscle mass decreases on HRT, bones become less dense, skin thins and softens.

The governing body of MMA, as well as medical boards of the LPGA, The IOC (Olympics), MMA, WNBA, the NCAA, and actual doctors everywhere say the same thing. Hormone therapy for any significant length of time, especially coupled with gonadectomy eliminate any natural "male" muscle mass and any advantage it may provide. All allow trans women to compete as women.

Most of the organizations that allow trans women to compete as women test many things (including testosterone, both free and bound) and have stringent requirements regarding length of time on HRT and a gonadectomy.

There is no bone shape, bone density, height, weight, or center of balance that a man could have that a woman couldn't also have. There are 3.6 billion ways to be a woman on this planet, there is ample room for significant variation.

Fallon Fox is 5' 7", hardly huge and in fact only three inches over the "average" height for women in the US. Here she is with her last opponent who is visibly larger than her http://imgur.com/a/54TIc

If she were huge it wouldn't matter, as the IOC has already allowed a man named Antonio Silva to fight, who has the condition of Acromegaly (a form of gigantism) Shown here with a much smaller opponent http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZX8tq6Zhd4c/TVaunsGsI4I/AAAAAAAAA6A/t6xygV1Q68U/s1600/002_Fedor_Emelianenko_and_Antonio_Silva.jpg .

The arguments of muscle mass, bone density, and overall strength already fall under the "handled by hrt" category, feel free to go read the science on that one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(male-to-female)

There are a number of conditions that would induce high ranges of testosterone (free and bound), these women are not barred from women's sports. -footnote-These women often take the same testosterone suppressing medication (anti-androgens) that are taken by trans women.

A thought exercise, if you believe Fallon Fox should only compete with males, would you find it appropriate for a Trans man fighter on HRT as being able to only fight women? If not, Why?

If you believe this is a matter of "genetics" please understand that XX and XY otherwise known as the "sex chromosomes" aren't even where the genetic information dictating physical sex are primarily expressed.

Conditions exist in which people with XX chromosomes naturally develop physiologically male bodies and vice versa (XY develop female bodies). There is even a case of an XY mother giving birth to an XY daughter.

For the "genitally focused" group (penis=man, vagina=woman), we are all phenomenologically female to start with until testosterone is introduced during fetal development

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/multimedia/videos/We-Were-All-Female-Once.html

I'm not a molecular biologist or a doctor but from what I understand we share the same genital structure in both fetal males and fetal females until the SRY on the Y chromasome causes the creation of enzymes called transcription factors, which promote the expression of various other genes that lead to a masculinized phenotype. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRY No enzymes introduced due to not possessing SRY or other reasons, and the female phenotype develops , so I think it's fair to describe it as the default setting.

In the end a clit is a just little penis, and a penis is really just a big clit. Besides hormones and the effect they have on different stages of development, there is very little physiological difference between men and women. All the pieces are the same, just adapted by hormones here and there.

If one would argue that transsexuality is simply a psychological condition, please watch this Stanford lecture from an accomplished nuerobiologist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A3C4ZJ7HyuE

Besides all of this being factual and not what a few internet people think, but what actual medical science (and law!) thinks (please someone invite R/skeptic), this is all important to consider just on the effect that widespread anti trans sentiment and transphobia has in the world today

49 per cent of transgender people attempt suicide (mostly due to the unavailability of transitional treatment, or being exiled from their family and social framework because of rampant anti trans sentiment)
Transgender youth account for 18 per cent of homeless people in cities such as Chicago, but researchers estimate fewer than 1 in 1,000 people is transgender.
265 trans people have been murdered worldwide in the last 12 months.
In the US Transgender women made up 40% of the 30 reported hate murders in 2011, while representing only 10% of total violence survivors and victims. This was comparable to last year’s report where transgender women made up 44% of the 27 reported hate murders, reflecting a two-year trend toward disproportional and severe violence faced by transgender women.
Transgender youth whose parents pressure them to conform to their anatomical gender report higher levels of depression, illegal drug use, suicide attempts and unsafe sex than peers who receive little or no pressure from parents.

And for all those who think people go around regretting transitioning and shouldn't be able to decide their own gender- Less than 1 to 1.5 per cent of individuals experience persistent regret after sex-reassignment surgery.

Besides "It just feels wrong", an argument with which I have no traction and am unlikely to gain any on, I can't imagine what else people think could possibly bar this awesome fighter from continuing to do what she loves.

I know that "she used to be a MAN" seems to be enough for some people, short sighted as that is. Once upon a time, she used to be a baby, something that I'm fairly sure is barred from competing in most major sports at the professional level. I'm expecting a bit of backlash on this post, but what can I say, I get it. Haters gonna hate.

Trans people participating in professional athletic competitions is not uncharted territory; guidelines do exist for when and how someone who has transitioned can compete. Genes are not particularly relevant here. Hormones are.

Hormone therapy removes any advantage testosterone might have previously given a trans woman. The International Olympic Committee's rules have three requirements for trans athletes to compete with members of the same gender:

They must have had gender reassignment surgery
They must have legal recognition of their assigned gender
They must have at least two years of hormone therapy

These rules aren't perfect. If an athlete's country refuses to issue updated legal ID they're out of luck, even though that doesn't affect athletic ability. And "gender reassignment surgery" is both an ambiguous term, and doesn't really affect any body parts typically involved in the competitions.

But still, even the Olympics recognize that trans women (and these arguments are always about trans women competing as women, never trans men competing as men) belong on the women's teams.

seanmacc

Its not as if they go through all that physical trauma of surgeries and homone therapy just so they can have an advantage in particiapting in sport.
Transgender people have to do a lot to be accepted and many won't particiapte in sport at any level for fear of being ridiculed.
Its a tough one alright

Links234

Also, I'd like to highlight that this is nothing new. There are a few transgender women competing in sports over the years, Michelle Dumaresq, Mianne Bagger, and even going back to Renee Richards in the 70's!

If it was going to be abused, well then we've got 40 years of those floodgates being opened and nothing more than a trickle happening.

LittleBook

I'd be more concerned about the governing body of a sport which allows a 50-year-old anyone play college basketball.

Gabrielle Ludwig

Oranage2

I think the time has come that transgenders and the like should have their own legally recognised gender status.

super_furry

Has it ever gone the other way? I mean has a female-to-male transexual ever attempted to compete against men? I could see that being problematic with testosterone injections and the rest.

OldGoat

Oranage2 wrote: »

I think the time has come that transgenders and the like should have their own legally recognised gender status.

It would be easier to just stop using gender as an identifier for people.

kneemos

It's simple,men are stronger than women it doesn't change if they've had a sex change,it's PC and fear of offending anybody gone crazy.

Links234

kneemos wrote: »

It's simple,men are stronger than women it doesn't change if they've had a sex change,it's PC and fear of offending anybody gone crazy.

Citation needed?

A person's body changes drastically from hormone treatment, nothing "PC" about it.

Oranage2

OldGoat wrote: »

It would be easier to just stop using gender as an identifier for people.

How would this be easier?

pablohoney87

Links234 wrote: »

Citation needed?

Really?

Can you address Super Furry's point?

kneemos

Links234 wrote: »

Citation needed?

A person's body changes drastically from hormone treatment, nothing "PC" about it.

Does it reduce bone structure and muscle mass.Any transgender I've ever seen looked like a man.

Beruthiel

Ush1 wrote: »

My personal opinion is that it's not fair

Just wondering, how much research you have done and what your level of knowledge is with regards to transgender, before you came to the conclusion it's not fair?

Kylo Ren

When are the men turned women allowed to compete against women though? Can a man just say he feels he is a woman and compete or is surgery and estrogen treatments compulsory?

Annasopra

kneemos wrote: »

Any transgender I've ever seen looked like a man.

There are LOTS of trans mtf and ftm who are not easily identifiable so thats a completely irrelevant and redundant point

Links234

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Really?

Yes, really. If you're going to make a claim, back it up.

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Can you address Super Furry's point?

Sure, when I get around to it. I don't know what the regulations are concerning transsexual men in sport, so I'm going to look it up and ask other people who might know more than me before making any kind of claims or statements.

Links234

kneemos wrote: »

Does it reduce bone structure and muscle mass.

Yes.

Keno 92 wrote: »

When are the men turned women allowed to compete against women though? Can a man just say he feels he is a woman and compete or is surgery and estrogen treatments compulsory?

Going by olympic rules:

They must have had gender reassignment surgery
They must have legal recognition of their assigned gender
They must have at least two years of hormone therapy

krudler

LittleBook wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about the governing body of a sport which allows a 50-year-old anyone play college basketball.

Gabrielle Ludwig

mature student? if you're in college you're in college

kneemos

mango salsa wrote: »

There are LOTS of trans mtf and ftm who are not easily identifiable so thats a completely irrelevant and redundant point

Most are clearly identifiable so it's obviously a very pertinent point.

pablohoney87

Links234 wrote: »

Yes, really. If you're going to make a claim, back it up.

I dont think you should have to back up a claim that generally men are stronger than women?

I wont comment on any other sport except the one I know about.
If I were coaching an MMA fighter and a promoter were to approach me about my girl fighting a trans gender fighter I would turn it down pure and simple. The same way I would turn down a fight against one who continuously failed drug tests.

Links234

pablohoney87 wrote: »

I dont think you should have to back up a claim that generally men are stronger than women?

You have to back up a claim you make that strength etc doesn't change for transgender people going through a transition.

Ush1

Links234 wrote: »

This has been doing the rounds on Reddit as of late, so I'm just going to post a response from Reddit that's far better than anything I could post:

The governing body of MMA, as well as medical boards of the LPGA, The IOC (Olympics), MMA, WNBA, the NCAA, and actual doctors everywhere say the same thing. Hormone therapy for any significant length of time, especially coupled with gonadectomy eliminate any natural "male" muscle mass and any advantage it may provide. All allow trans women to compete as women.

Who exactly is the governing body of MMA?? Each state has it's own athletic commision which regulates sports. Also, any evidence or citations for all this muscle being eliminated and not providing any advantage?? Because it would not appear that is the case often.

There is no bone shape, bone density, height, weight, or center of balance that a man could have that a woman couldn't also have. There are 3.6 billion ways to be a woman on this planet, there is ample room for significant variation.

Right so why seperate men and women at all? I'm not buying this, the average female would not be near the test level of an average male.

The rest of the post seems to relate to emotive things.

The short time most are on female hormone treatment I would need evidence to think it would overcome the life of testosterone they have been producing. It doesn't make sense.

Ush1

Beruthiel wrote: »

Just wondering, how much research you have done and what your level of knowledge is with regards to transgender, before you came to the conclusion it's not fair?

What do you want, hours or something?

I came to the conclusion when I looked at the available evidence I have seen and am open to correction on any of it. Do you have anything to add?

LittleBook

krudler wrote: »

mature student? if you're in college you're in college

Well, sure. But my point is that the more remarkable aspect of this story (for me) is that there is no age limit to people playing junior college/college sports.

Oranage2

There is noway a transgender women and an actual woman are physically the same, I think common sense has is well gone if anyone believes that. I've done no research but I'm sure a trans woman would have bigger physical features like bigger hands, longer reach, more powerful skull and stronger bone density, also internal organs would be different giving a trans woman a lot more advantages over a I don't know the pc term but I'll use the word actual woman.

suicide_circus

I guess the proof of the pudding will be in the beating - ie: if trans m->f continuously beat the hell out of opponents who were born women then in all likelyhood, despite whay the IOC say, there are some disparities.

kneemos

mango salsa wrote: »

It's not. Where is your proof that most are clearly identifiable?

Any I've seen looked like men,can you prove they don't?

Tombi!

kneemos wrote: »

Any I've seen looked like men,can you prove they don't?

Sure:
http://img.karaoke-lyrics.net/img/artists/28413/kim-petras-40285.jpg

Balmed Out

I dont think theres any one out there who would get a sex change for any sporting advantage and I cant say im an expert on the subject but my thoughts....

So far as I know male to female is more common then female to male, but still it seems when it comes to sports its all you hear about. Are there female to male transgendered people who are very sucessful against male athletes?

If not then surely male to females despite hormone therapy etc have an advantage while female to males have a disadvantage?

Do skeleton size, joint differences etc not give men an advantage that cannot be altered by any amount of hormone therapy etc?


I wouldnt have a problem when it comes to just for fun sports but on a professional level or an elite amateur level I dont think it should be allowed. Perhaps a seperate classification in the paralympcis? I dont think the likes of Oscar Pistorius should be allowed either to be honest. If theres a possibility of an unnatural advantage then I dont think you should be allowed.

token101

Balmed Out wrote: »

I wouldnt have a problem when it comes to just for fun sports but on a professional level or an elite amateur level I dont think it should be allowed. Perhaps a seperate classification in the paralympcis? I dont think the likes of Oscar Pistorius should be allowed either to be honest. If theres a possibility of an unnatural advantage then I dont think you should be allowed.

How exactly is having no legs an unnatural advantage?

Ush1

With regards the hormone therapy reducing bone structure, I've just read this:

Even short-term hormone therapy (HT) use can improve a women’s bone structure, so that other medications can then be used to sustain bone health over the longer-term. The Women’s Health Initiative in the United States, a randomized clinical trial involving menopausal women, found that HT was clearly effective in the prevention of hip fractures, vertebral breaks and other injuries. The SOGC Consensus Report, and the Menopause and Osteoporosis Update 2009 however, does not recommend HT solely for purposes of addressing osteoporosis.

http://menopauseandu.ca/faqs/hormoneTherapy_e.aspx

That is using ET or EPT.

suicide_circus

Any examples of f->m athletes?

Tombi!

On average men are bigger than women I thought so wouldn't a 6'2 woman have an advantage over a 5'4 woman in terms of skeletal size? Not sure about bone density though.

kneemos

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Sure:
http://img.karaoke-lyrics.net/img/artists/28413/kim-petras-40285.jpg

A ramdom picture is proof?

Tombi!

suicide_circus wrote: »

Any examples of f->m athletes?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/sports/for-transgender-triathlete-a-top-finish-is-secondary.html?_r=0
That's one guy there.
I'm not sure of any others (mtf or ftm, TBH).

Tombi!

kneemos wrote: »

A ramdom picture is proof?

I wouldn't say she looks like a fella.

Oranage2

yeah but its photo shopped quite a bit

Tombi!

Oranage2 wrote: »

yeah but its photo shopped quite a bit

Are you going to say that about every picture I post of her or just that one?
Because if it's the former, then there's no point in trying to get you to change your mind.

kneemos

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Are you going to say that about every picture I post of her or just that one?
Because if it's the former, then there's no point in trying to get you to change your mind.

It's just a picture,who is she,where's she from,is she a hemaphrodite or just in fact a girl off the web.

Tombi!

kneemos wrote: »

It's just a picture,who is she,where's she from,is she a hemaphrodite or just in fact a girl off the web.

Her name was in the link.
She's a German singer that's MtF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras

Sorry, I thought you read the name, searched it up and were just trying to be annoying/argumentative for no reason.

Oranage2

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Are you going to say that about every picture I post of her or just that one?
Because if it's the former, then there's no point in trying to get you to change your mind.

ah no ofcourse there are transgenders out there that look good. I wouldn't dispute that.

Hande hoche!

Whenever transgender and sport are mentioned together, I think East Germany.

OldGoat

Oranage2 wrote: »

How would this be easier?

OK, currently we have two identifiers for gender, male (M) and female (F).
If we were to add new identifiers as you suggest we would have to add
M to F and F to M.

Then of course we would have to take the actual surgical process into account so that we should have
M to F pre op, M to F post op, F to M pre op and F to M post op.

Phew.

So, as you can see it becomes quite cumbersome. I suggest that it would be easier to stop refering to people as male, female, shemale or any other portmanteau. Find a gender neutral word instead.

Back on topic, one of my transgender friends played golf with me both before and after the op. She's still crap. Now she won't let me share the showers with her.

Tiddlypeeps

Oranage2 wrote: »

I think the time has come that transgenders and the like should have their own legally recognised gender status.

Oranage2 wrote: »

There is noway a transgender women and an actual woman are physically the same, I think common sense has is well gone if anyone believes that. I've done no research but I'm sure a trans woman would have bigger physical features like bigger hands, longer reach, more powerful skull and stronger bone density, also internal organs would be different giving a trans woman a lot more advantages over a I don't know the pc term but I'll use the word actual woman.

Such ignorance, you say yourself that you have done no research yet you make such big claims with such conviction.

I personally hate the term "common sense". All it means is that's what the majority believes, it doesn't dictate what's actually true. The notion that something is true just because it's what most people believe is a logical fallacy.

You must have totally missed the post on the front page that offers lots of reading material on the science of the subject, it was a great post I suggest you go back and read over it. The science seems to disagree with your common sense so if you have a read over it and find any flaws then come back and counter with that instead of "common sense tells me it's not right". Here is a link http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83624852&postcount=5

kneemos wrote: »

Any I've seen looked like men,can you prove they don't?

This is a pretty silly thing to say, of course the only transgender people you have noticed are noticeably transgender otherwise you wouldn't have noticed them. The ones that you didn't notice weren't noticeable, so you have no way of knowing their numbers and wether they are in the majority or not.

Jimoslimos

No, it's not fair.

Regardless of any muscle loss as a result of hormone treatment, transgender women will be on average taller than genetically born women. Body shape, especially with relation to pelvis width will also be significantly different. These are clear advantages that can never be reversed.

I cannot agree with the stance taken by the IOC on this. How they can justify telling one group of athletes that doping with hormones is morally wrong (and dangerous) and against the rules, yet allow it for another group is beyond me.

It is overly simplistic to determine male from female purely on testo/estrogen levels.

Ush1

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Such ignorance, you say yourself that you have done no research yet you make such big claims with such conviction.

I personally hate the term "common sense". All it means is that's what the majority believes, it doesn't dictate what's actually true. The notion that something is true just because it's what most people believe is a logical fallacy.

You must have totally missed the post on the front page that offers lots of reading material on the science of the subject, it was a great post I suggest you go back and read over it. The science seems to disagree with your common sense so if you have a read over it and find any flaws then come back and counter with that instead of "common sense tells me it's not right". Here is a link http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83624852&postcount=5

What science in that post is pertinent to the argument at hand exactly?

It's first saying that hormone treatment reverses any potential advantages a man would have with NO citation or evidence.

It's then saying a woman can be any shape or size a man can be anyway and that were were all born women?

It's actually arguing with itself.

kneemos

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Her name was in the link.
She's a German singer that's MtF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras

Sorry, I thought you read the name, searched it up and were just trying to be annoying/argumentative for no reason.

Apparently she took hormone blocking drugs at age twelve which meant she didn't go through puberty and develope male features.A pretty extreme example in fairness and without the hair and makeup who knows.