DART fine - please help?

John.

last night I got a dart into town. When I got to the station there was nobody at the ticket office and the barriers were open. The train was pulling in so i decided to just go for it without getting a ticket from the machine. Ive done this loads of times and paid when i got to dun laoghaire and it was no problem.

A ticket inspector got on and asked for my ticket. I explained what happened and said i have the fare here if he wants it, he told me no and gave me a 100euro fine. I offered him my fair a few times and he said no. He told me not to pay the fare when I got to Pearse st. and to show the inspector there the fine docket and he would let me through the barriers.. so i did!

Out of curiosity i checked irish rails website and it states -

"8. WHAT IF THE TICKET OFFICE IS CLOSED OR THE TICKET VENDING MACHINES ARE NOT WORKING OR THE STATION HAS NO TICKET OFFICE?
Ticket vending machines are in operation through out our Network. These machines are monitored and regularly maintained to ensure that they are operational. However in the event that the booking office is closed OR the ticket Vending Machines are not working, you will then be required to pay for your journey on the train or at your destination. Failure or refusal to pay the required fare will result in and Penalty being issued ."

So the ticket inspector fines me even though it says on their website that if the booking office is closed i can pay on the train or at my destination. i was clearly told I wasnt allowed do either of these things!!

Also the the fine docket was not filled out in full.. the inspector left the "Ref. No", "Received by" , "Amount Paid" , "Unpaid Fare" and "Location" fields blank!

What are the chances of me winning this appeal?

Peppa Pig

John. wrote: »

What are the chances of me winning this appeal?

None - how did other people on the train get a ticket if all the machines were not working.
You knowingly got on the train without a ticket.

John.

nobody else got on at my stop so I dont know

Like i said.. It says on their website that if there is nobody at the ticket booth then i have to pay on the train or at my destination. I was prepared to do that and made it clear i was.

It DOES'NT say - if the booking office is closed AND the ticket Vending Machines are not working, you will then be required to pay for your journey on the train or at your destination.

It DOES say - if the booking office is closed OR the ticket Vending Machines are not working, you will then be required to pay for your journey on the train or at your destination

dahamsta

OP has a point, silly phrasing of the rules. I reckon you'd need to go to court to win it though. :-)

John.

dahamsta wrote: »

OP has a point, silly phrasing of the rules. I reckon you'd need to go to court to win it though. :-)

Not worth the hassle.

I understand that I would have to pay the fine if I did something wrong. I have have absolutely no problem if that was the case. But according to their online leaflet about getting fined i did nothing wrong!!!

The Big Red Button

John. wrote: »

Not worth the hassle.

I understand that I would have to pay the fine if I did something wrong. I have have absolutely no problem if that was the case. But according to their online leaflet about getting fined i did nothing wrong!!!

But ... you didn't try to pay, using the machines there?

Were they not working? You've omitted that detail so far ...

John.

Fluffy Bunny Rabid wrote: »

But ... you didn't try to pay, using the machines there?

Were they not working? You've omitted that detail so far ...

I tried to pay but there was nobody there.. I tried to pay the inspector on the dart, he didnt accept.. I intended to pay at Pearse street and was told not too.

Nope didnt bother with the machine as the dart was there. But as i said.. i have no problem paying the fine if their rules stated that i had to! But thats not what they say!!! They say that if the machine isnt working or there is nobody in the ticket booth then i have to pay on the train or at my destination. And i fully intended to do so

The Bishop Basher

John. wrote: »

I tried to pay but there was nobody there.. I tried to pay the inspector on the dart, he didnt accept.. I intended to pay at Pearse street and was told not too.

Nope didnt bother with the machine as the dart was there. But as i said.. i have no problem paying the fine if their rules stated that i had to! But thats not what they say!!! They say that if the machine isnt working or there is nobody in the ticket booth then i have to pay on the train or at my destination. And i fully intended to do so

You could have bought a ticket but you didn't. Had the same experience myself on the Luas. I payed the fine and learned an expensive lesson. You can always just not pay but I don't fancy your chances in court tbh.

Peppa Pig

John. wrote: »

The train was pulling in so i decided to just go for it without getting a ticket from the machine.

irish rail wrote:

7. CAN I PAY AT MY DESITINATION IF IM IN A RUSH?
No, if facilities are provided at your departure point and you board the train without a valid ticket then you will be issued with a fixed penalty.

You have no idea if facilites were available or not, so this paragraph applies.

John.

Swanner wrote: »

You could have bought a ticket but you didn't. Had the same experience myself on the Luas. I payed the fine and learned an expensive lesson. You can always just not pay but I don't fancy your chances in court tbh.

Its different though. The inspector contradicts what the website says and he fined me. I had full intentions of paying it until i read their website

John.

Peppa Pig wrote: »

You have no idea if facilites were available or not, so this paragraph applies.

But this contradicts No.8 , what i quoted.

If there is nobody at the ticket booth then I have to pay on the train or at my destination.

Thats what happened! Why should I have to pay a fine if they state that?

cml387

The Dart is a brilliant service which Dubliners are extremely fortunate to have.
Yet there are people like the OP who believe that they can travel for free and when they're caught try to weasle out on a technicality.

elfy4eva

You have a technicality there.

You could argue till the cows come home but nothing will come of it.
They'll claim its in their T's&C's that you should buy a ticket beforehand
and they'll dismiss what you say unless it went to court, and even if it did
go to court it's a very unconvincing argument.

I've been caught skipping fare before as a minor by a DART inspector
lucky for me I was able to weasel my way out of it. It's a ****
experiance but you'll get over it.

ted1

John. wrote: »

But this contradicts No.8 , what i quoted.

If there is nobody at the ticket booth then I have to pay on the train or at my destination.

Thats what happened! Why should I have to pay a fine if they state that?

Your fogetting the piece where is says OR the ticket vending machine? This is telling you to buy one there if there is no staff on the office. If the machine was out if order it will be logged in the system , you could appeal it then,

But face it you were caught evading a fare.

John.

cml387 wrote: »

The Dart is a brilliant service which Dubliners are extremely fortunate to have.
Yet there are people like the OP who believe that they can travel for free and when they're caught try to weasle out on a technicality.

Of course its a great service! I use it 12 times a week and sometimes more!!

I dont expect to travel for free at all.. You should maybe read my previous posts :rolleyes:

100 euro is a lot of money to me, Im a student with very little income. I would pay it if it stated that im clearly wrong but it doesn't.

Boards.ie is a brilliant service which dubliners are extremely fortunate to have. Yet there are people that have nothing better to do than troll other peoples threads

The Bishop Basher

John. wrote: »

Its different though. The inspector contradicts what the website says and he fined me. I had full intentions of paying it until i read their website

It's not different. You could have bought a ticket from the machine but you didn't and you got caught. Suck it up and pay the fine.

John.

Swanner wrote: »

It's not different. You could have bought a ticket from the machine but you didn't and you got caught. Suck it up and pay the fine.

I did exactly that then i read their website while looking for where to pay and found that maybe the inspector was wrong.

At the end of the day if I have to pay, I have to pay!! I just dont want to fork out 100euro for something that mightnt have been my fault. As I said if it is my fault Irish Rail will be 100 euro richer

John.

ted1 wrote: »

Your fogetting the piece where is says OR the ticket vending machine? This is telling you to buy one there if there is no staff on the office. If the machine was out if order it will be logged in the system , you could appeal it then,

But face it you were caught evading a fare.

Im not forgetting anything.. read all my posts. You misread it

Gatling

It was your fault ,you by passed the ticket machine chancing your arm got caught and now your whingeing about how you were wronged by the inspector ,grow up and pay up

F1ngers

John. wrote: »

The train was pulling in so i decided to just go for it without getting a ticket from the machine.

John. wrote: »

Im not forgetting anything.. read all my posts. You misread it

That bit in the op, you didn't use the machine.

John.

Gatling wrote: »

It was your fault ,you by passed the ticket machine chancing your arm got caught and now your whingeing about how you were wronged by the inspector ,grow up and pay up

No no, i didnt chance my arm. Ive done it so many times before and have seen so many people do it!!! i get the dart over 12 times a week and i dont know how they think I was going to get through Pearse without a ticket. Ive had the opportunity to not pay before in Dun Laoghaire and didnt do it.

A keyboard warrior is what someone would probably call you you seem more annoyed with it than me At least i have a reason in my life to whinge.. you have to whinge over someones post on Boards! haha

Gatling

Wow what an attitude .you again chose to evade a ticket machine there for you evaded paying a fare and got caught plain and simple

John.

F1ngers wrote: »

That bit in the op, you didn't use the machine.

I meant they misread the quote from Irish rail

John.

Gatling wrote: »

Wow what an attitude .you again chose to evade a ticket machine there for you evaded paying a fare and got caught plain and simple

I was smiling while typing. So i cant really take offence to that? How could I be annoyed

John.

Ok so Ill probably have to pay the fine. I just thought that maybe I wasnt in the wrong from what their website says and Ive seen it happen so many times and heard of people paying the fare to the inspectors when things like that happen. I dont need anymore replies saying how wrong I am

Thanks!

pm1977x

OP, I'd say FAQ answer no.7 is exactly your situation whereas no.8 that you keep quoting is just a technicality related to your situation - if you take the line that:

"I was going to pay the fine until I checked your website and saw no.8"

they'll just ask you why you think no.7 doesn't apply to you too.

edit: posted before your last reply so ignore!

John.

pm1977x wrote: »

OP, I'd say FAQ answer no.7 is exactly your situation whereas no.8 that you keep quoting is just a technicality related to your situation - if you take the line that:

"I was going to pay the fine until I checked your website and saw no.8"

they'll just ask you why you think no.7 doesn't apply to you too.

edit: posted before your last reply so ignore!

Yeah cheers! Good point! Thats it plain and simple. I think me looking at sites for the past hour about by laws on public transport confused me a bit and I thought I had a valid argument when I didn't.

Hungerford

John. wrote: »

What are the chances of me winning this appeal?

About the same as being being elected Pope next week. The FAQ on the Irish Rail website isn't a legal document. The rules governing ticketing are contained in the CIE bye-laws (confirmation) order, 1984.

There is a potential issue with the wording of the section involved (i.e. is a ticket machine a booking office?) but nobody has been brave enough to challenge it in the courts.

F1ngers

John. wrote: »

I dont need anymore replies saying how wrong I am

Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

John.

Hungerford wrote: »

About the same as being being elected Pope next week. The FAQ on the Irish Rail website isn't a legal document. The rules governing ticketing are contained in the CIE bye-laws (confirmation) order, 1984.

There is a potential issue with the wording of the section involved (i.e. is a ticket machine a booking office?) but nobody has been brave enough to challenge it in the courts.

if i was a richer, smarter and more bitter man I would

But after reading previous posts on boards from a few years ago.. they have changed an "and" with an "or" in their rules. Thats the only reason i thought i could be right.

hmmm

John.

F1ngers wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

:D:D

Pretzill

John. wrote: »

Ok so Ill probably have to pay the fine. I just thought that maybe I wasnt in the wrong from what their website says and Ive seen it happen so many times and heard of people paying the fare to the inspectors when things like that happen. I dont need anymore replies saying how wrong I am

Thanks!

it's a bugbear of mine that when getting the mainline train to connolly if you follow the platforms to the dart there is nowhere to physically purchase a dart ticket without detouring down the front of connolly queuing and normally missing a dart in the process - i have tried to purchase dart tickets on my mainline ticket but this integrated ticketing seems beyond irish rail - so in some situations in the past when i've been in a hurry i've purchased my ticket at the destination and i've never been chastised for it - i guess had i met the inspector i'd be fined too like john - but the staff in the destination station are very nice about it which leads me to believe it happens often

John.

Pretzill wrote: »

it's a bugbear of mine that when getting the mainline train to connolly if you follow the platforms to the dart there is nowhere to physically purchase a dart ticket without detouring down the front of connolly queuing and normally missing a dart in the process - i have tried to purchase dart tickets on my mainline ticket but this integrated ticketing seems beyond irish rail - so in some situations in the past when i've been in a hurry i've purchased my ticket at the destination and i've never been chastised for it - i guess had i met the inspector i'd be fined too like john - but the staff in the destination station are very nice about it which leads me to believe it happens often

The staff are nice about it too where I am and in Dun Laoghaire and Pearse!! they couldnt care less as long as I pay my fare. Sure the guy in Pearse told me that it was stupid and that I should appeal it

n97 mini

This comes up regularly enough. Technically (and according to the bye laws) you are right, but you'd probably have to go to court to prove it.

John.

n97 mini wrote: »

This comes up regularly enough. Technically (and according to the bye laws) you are right, but you'd probably have to go to court to prove it.

i dont wanna risk going to court!

n97 mini

John. wrote: »

i dont wanna risk going to court!

Not wanting to be the bearer of bad news it's probably a case of pay the fine so.

John.

n97 mini wrote: »

Not wanting to be the bearer of bad news it's probably a case of pay the fine so.

yep.. thats what im doing

n97 mini

John. wrote: »

yep.. thats what im doing

Ninja post edit there removing roll eyes.

It comes up regularly, but no-one will test it in court. The bye-laws seem clear, although there are plenty of idiot judges in the circuit court system, so no guarantee justice would be done.

John.

n97 mini wrote: »

Ninja post edit there removing roll eyes.

lol i read your last post completely wrong! my bad

like i dont think its really worth going to court over. What would happen if i lost in court?

Hilly Bill

It will cost you more.

goingnowhere

SI 109 1984 does not apply, the fine was issued under the Rail Safety Act 2005

No ticket = fine unless there is a good reason, i.e. station you boarded at had no ability to sell you a ticket.

Caught red handed, pay up and move on

Hungerford

goingnowhere wrote: »

SI 109 1984 does not apply, the fine was issued under the Rail Safety Act 2005

That act merely sets the penalty. In terms of offences, it refers back to the CIE bye-laws from 1984 and various other pieces of legislation dating back to the 1950s in some cases.

ted1

If you use the dart so often then why not use a leap card or annual pass?

Losty Dublin

Hungerford wrote: »

That act merely sets the penalty. In terms of offences, it refers back to the CIE bye-laws from 1984 and various other pieces of legislation dating back to the 1950s in some cases.

The 2005 act sets an offence of not having a correct ticket as well as the legal basis to impose fixed penalty notices to passengers.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The 2005 act sets an offence of not having a correct ticket as well as the legal basis to impose fixed penalty notices to passengers.

Relevant part here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0132.html#sec132

Interestingly it would seem if you give your name and address you don't pay the fare or fine.

John.

n97 mini wrote: »

Relevant part here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0132.html#sec132

Interestingly it would seem if you give your name and address you don't pay the fare or fine.

im confused whats going on?

Pretzill

Pretzill wrote: »

i have tried to purchase dart tickets on my mainline ticket but this integrated ticketing seems beyond irish rail

This is down to either laziness or incompetence to be honest. It's possible to get a ticket from any station to any other station. You could do Tralee to Raheny if you wanted (including bus or Luas transfer) - the problem is that the person in the ticket office in Tralee may not know the station code for Raheny and therefore wouldn't know how to issue the ticket.

Aquarius34

cml387 wrote: »

The Dart is a brilliant service which Dubliners are extremely fortunate to have.
Yet there are people like the OP who believe that they can travel for free and when they're caught try to weasle out on a technicality.

ffs it's not like he stole a car or something. It was a once off and anyone would of done the same in his boat. Get real would you.

John.

i dunno why cml387 gets off on half reading somebodys post and and trying to put them down.



p**ck

Hilly Bill

Aquarius34 wrote: »

ffs it's not like he stole a car or something. It was a once off and anyone would of done the same in his boat. Get real would you.

it was a train not a boat and it was a one off that he was caught not the amount of times he has done it.

John.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

it was a train not a boat and it was a one off that he was caught not the amount of times he has done it.

caught doing what? evading the fare??

i fully intended on paying the fare. the inspector knew that and the guy in Pearse street knew that