Advice on Photographer Issue

johnny_adidas

We are getting married later this year. My fiances sister got married last year and we decided to use the same photographer as we thought he was pretty good on the day. We paid a non refundable deposit of several hundred euros and signed a contract which describes it as such.

Since then it transpired that the photographer dragged his heals when it came to their album. Im sure such things happen from time to time, however, this photographer has in the last month stopped taking their calls and blocked their emails. (They had to ring from a new number at one stage which he answered and promised to ring back, which he did not). They have now had to go down the legal route.

We are now in a bad situation. My fiance cannot have the photographer come to the house on the morning of the wedding as her father is extremely upset with how his other daughter was treated. Indeed my fiance is feeling very awkward herself and doesnt want to feel that way on the day of her wedding, wondering if the photos will suffer as a result. She has spoken to the photographer recently who assured her the issues with her sister would be sorted and she has nothing to worry about. This turned out to be more lies.

Im really looking for advice here as things are already quite tight on the budget front so paying more (one of the largest expenses) for another photograher isnt ideal but we cannot now trust what this photographer says. Im very annoyed about the situation and think that his behaviour has been less than professional. Has he done anything to date to break his side of the contract or are we stuffed in terms of the deposit?

Corkbah

is it possible that you can accept to write off the deposit and find another photographer - obviously you have lost confidence in your photographer so... have a look in the photo section or the photographer area here in the wedding part of boards.

there's a few who are willing to help out boardsies in need or people with restricted budgets.

johnny_adidas

Thanks for your reply. Basically, its not something we can afford on current budget and will need to borrow for it. Will have a look through the section to see what I can find.

Being the one who generally handles the money in the relationship, Im pretty annoyed that we will lose the hard earned (& saved) money.

Corkbah

have a look through the contract - try to find something which could allow you a refund !

or if its possible contact the photographer and see if he is willing to transfer the deposit to another photographer - simply because you fear for his safety at the wedding due to the current circumstances....its in his best interest that he does this and in this way he breaks the contract rather than you....ergo you should be entitled to a refund !... or at best he could transfer most of the deposit and hold a "transaction fee" so he gets some money (I know technically its not right but its the cheapest/safest option which any photographer might go for)

chances are if he does cover your wedding - he could potentially ruin your own wedding .... so by offering this option to him, he can avoid a possible future legal action.

What date is your wedding ?

Some photographers will offer a payment plan so you can pay over a number of months.

johnny_adidas

October so he cant really say he doesnt have time to get more work between now and then.

Thanks for that advice, it makes a lot of sense. I think best thing now is to arrange a sit down with him as id imagine its going to be a lot more difficult to refuse in person

Corkbah

can I ask what your budget is ?

and what style you prefer in terms of photography ....most people these days go for a reportage wedding style and a couple of formal images thrown in for fun.

We're getting married in August.
(our wedding photographers are doing DVD only with approx 650images for around €2000 - two photographers ...very established professional photographers)

johnny_adidas

Our budget was about €1000 max for dvd only. we were happy with about half that amount of photos (& photographers ). It was indeed that style which we were after

sffc

There's lot's of compromises possible here. An obvious one being to use your deposit in any settlement in the other dispute. Give your solicitor a buzz and drop into the citizens info to enquire about the small claims court.

pwurple

What an absolutely idiotic photographer. He's looking at a court claim, and losing another client, by taking a year to get those photos back. Plus the bad reputation that ensues. Amature recently turned professional maybe?

oconnb31

go get your angry father in law to be and your brother inlaw to be and the 3 of ye go round get your money back ! stop being a pu**y !

ck83

oconnb31 wrote: »

go get your angry father in law to be and your brother inlaw to be and the 3 of ye go round get your money back ! stop being a pu**y !

That's a ridiculously unhelpful. And a ridiculous suggestion.

johnny_adidas

pwurple wrote: »

What an absolutely idiotic photographer. He's looking at a court claim, and losing another client, by taking a year to get those photos back. Plus the bad reputation that ensues. Amature recently turned professional maybe?

On the contrary, he seems to have years of experience and is member of a few professional bodies (we have enquired with one of these). It baffles me how he has been in business this long if this is how he operates

johnny_adidas

oconnb31 wrote: »

go get your angry father in law to be and your brother inlaw to be and the 3 of ye go round get your money back ! stop being a pu**y !

Strange why someone would join boards just to spout this

ted1

How long ago did you book him and to be frank paying a deposit of a couple of hundred in these day and age for something that costs 1k is mad.

johnny_adidas

To be fair, every photographer has different terms and conditions so booking fees vary, and this seemed to be similar to everyone else that we spoke to at the time. I would imagine photographers use this to cover themselves in cases of wedding cancellations and losing that week's pay. (That said I personally dont usually believe in someone being paid before any work/service is carried out)

We also certainly didnt expect this to happen having already done a family wedding when we booked him a few months ago.

clint_silver

johnny_adidas wrote: »

To be fair, every photographer has different terms and conditions so booking fees vary, and this seemed to be similar to everyone else that we spoke to at the time. I would imagine photographers use this to cover themselves in cases of wedding cancellations and losing that week's pay. (That said I personally dont usually believe in someone being paid before any work/service is carried out)

We also certainly didnt expect this to happen having already done a family wedding when we booked him a few months ago.

If the photographer isn't responding, they have your sisters money and havent given the pictures there is a situation in force here.

I would suggest calling him and asking to speak directly. meet him, explain the situation, if he hasn't given the pictures to the sister, what guarantees can he given that you'll get yours?

Explain if he turns up to your wedding without having resolved the sisters situation satisfactorily by then, all the same people will be there and how is he going to deal with that? which for me is a genuine question as he must understand that there will be a lot of angry people there.

If he can sort out the sisters photos then you can press ahead, if not, an he doesnt want to turn up on the day then you'd be happy to take your deposit back but you need to know now.

So while you dont need to be heavy handed at this point, for me, you do do need to speak to him face to face.

Fionn

Would you not name the photographer? that might help to resolve the situation!

unfortunately the fact that the photographer is having problems with another client will have no legal bearing on an agreed non-refundable deposit. Was there a clause in the contract that allowed for a refund if he did not fulfill his end of the agreement? if there is, Id go with what Clint said above - tactfully put it to him that due to the circumstance with the future sister in law that he probably wont be able to fulfill his obligations under the agreement. Without seeing the exact wording of the contract it's a bit of guess work.

Certainly keep a dialog going and a face to face meeting is always best.

good luck

johnny_adidas

Dont know if I can mention names is the reason I haven't and its hard to know how someone will react if their name is left up there to be discussed online before issues are discussed in person

Fionn

You have a point, but on other threads here, photographers have been mentioned, inquired about etc. it's sometimes a good way to expedite a solution to a particular problem.

Toots

Please do not name the photographer.

paulbok

Well if your sister was to be in charge of organising your photographs with that photographer, and he doesn't answer the phone to her number, then you would have a genuine case of him breaking your contract and he would have to refund your money.
However getting it off him might be another story.

johnny_adidas

Well, things arent looking any better since my last post. My brother in law has received his album after settling out of small claims. Bad blood appears to be there on both sides.
The photographer is refusing to refund us and is basically making us choose to cancel.
Only options I see left are :
- Approach him myself and demand it back, turning up at the odd wedding fair if he happens to be packing up some morning Im sitting outside, generally making a nuisance of myself
- Small Claims - not sure how successful this will be due to contract terms
- Joe Duffy/Consumer Show etc

pooch90

Even notifying him of your intention to attend every wedding fair he's due at might be enough to put the s***s up him.
That's terrible though, why would he even want the hassle of dealing with the family again??

johnny_adidas

He obviously doesnt care and sees it as us cancelling, meaning he's up the deposit at worst. Gets paid in full and has to fill the car with petrol at best if we cant afford to cancel

username123

johnny_adidas wrote: »

He obviously doesnt care and sees it as us cancelling, meaning he's up the deposit at worst. Gets paid in full and has to fill the car with petrol at best if we cant afford to cancel

Listen, there is no price on peace of mind.
I understand the deposit was a few hundred quid and the budget is tight.
Borrow/save/go cheaper on another photographer because you will not be happy with this guy now no matter what.

Spread the word on his sharp business practices and then move on. You have been scammed by someone with a brass neck - he was willing to go to court rather than give someone their wedding photos and now he thinks he can do a wedding with the same people? Nutjob. You wont be comfortable using him, its your wedding day, for a few hundred euro, get someone else.

clint_silver

johnny_adidas wrote: »

He obviously doesnt care and sees it as us cancelling, meaning he's up the deposit at worst. Gets paid in full and has to fill the car with petrol at best if we cant afford to cancel

Well, you stand a chance of getting your photos as well that Im guessing you at least half paid for at this stage. that would be looking at it in a positive manner.

Consult a solicitor I think.
Also, while Im not sure why he cant be named on boards (theres no mention of any legal action threatened), he could be named elsewhere so anyone searching for his name is under no illusion what theyre getting into.

toots, why is that about non-naming? lots of other providors have had bad recommendations on here and names were left.

username123

clint_silver wrote: »

toots, why is that about non-naming? lots of other providors have had bad recommendations on here and names were left.

I thought once you were stating fact it was ok to name people - ie, not slander or libel?

tHE vAGGABOND

We are getting married in 6 weeks :eek: and for a photographer but a request up on both of our facebooks if anyone knew [and would recomend] a good young photographer..

Got a number of recommendations, and eventually got one who seems excellent and very nice for a lot less than a grand, as she needs to build up portfolio and experience..

We paid full whack for a photographer for a family party last year and the photos were TERRIBLE, so for this and a bunch of other things we are going on personal recommendations [based on experience, rather than, "her shop is nice" or "good website"] only!

BizzyC

username123 wrote: »

I thought once you were stating fact it was ok to name people - ie, not slander or libel?

While we're all assuming that the OP is genuine and in need of advice, there's no actual evidence we can supply to a 3rd party to prove what's said on here to be true.
Since they cant prove it to be true, they run the risk of libel if the person is named.

username123

BizzyC wrote: »

While we're all assuming that the OP is genuine and in need of advice, there's no actual evidence we can supply to a 3rd party to prove what's said on here to be true.
Since they cant prove it to be true, they run the risk of libel if the person is named.

Are Small Claims Court proceedings not a matter of public record?

BizzyC

username123 wrote: »

Are Small Claims Court proceedings not a matter of public record?

We're getting a bit off topic here, I'll pop you a PM.

LadyBetty

PM'd you OP.

johnny_adidas

Given that a few people have asked both here and privately, I can stand over the issues spoken about here which can be confirmed by others.
The photographer is Pat McCoole based in Thurles.
I think it's fairly obvious that I have spent plenty of time looking for advice, and never came here just to name and shame but as another poster said it's only fair others are warned of his sharp business practices.
Ours was probably a unique situation but be warned about the amount of deposit paid up front for any service, no matter how comfortable you and your family are made to feel at the time of booking, as until said service and products are handed over they have the upper hand.
Where we go from here I'm still not sure, run the risk of having our wedding ruined by an argument, cancel and take the hit, or proceed with attempts for a refund

johnny_adidas

A Google search would indicate there are similar stories out there. In case you are wondering, I don't have any affiliation to the poster on that site. Just a pity it came too late for us and our family. http://www.weddingsonline.ie/discussion/pat-mccoole-recommendation-t287424.html

ck83

johnny_adidas wrote: »

A Google search would indicate there are similar stories out there. In case you are wondering, I don't have any affiliation to the poster on that site. Just a pity it came too late for us and our family. http://www.weddingsonline.ie/discussion/pat-mccoole-recommendation-t287424.html

I had a feeling you'd mention that particular name. Just a feeling. I'll tell you two things. Firstly- I heard of one couple (a friend of a friend) who had desperate trouble getting a wedding album from him - tbh, I don't know did they ever manage it or not. My friend had him booked and a deposit paid before she heard of this trouble, and freaked out, much like you- but went ahead with him, because she couldn't afford to lose the deposit.
When she saw the DVD of the photos, she was so disappointed by them, that she didn't want her wedding album. I haven't seen them, but apparently they're awful (and he Didnt have any axe to Grind with her). Two years on, she still hasn't gone about getting it. I think that's so sad. It's such an important day OP- don't have this hanging over you, and don't take the chance!

pooch90

Thank you for sharing OP.

Corkbah

johnny_adidas wrote: »

Given that a few people have asked both here and privately, I can stand over the issues spoken about here which can be confirmed by others.
The photographer is Pat McCoole based in Thurles.
I think it's fairly obvious that I have spent plenty of time looking for advice, and never came here just to name and shame but as another poster said it's only fair others are warned of his sharp business practices.
Ours was probably a unique situation but be warned about the amount of deposit paid up front for any service, no matter how comfortable you and your family are made to feel at the time of booking, as until said service and products are handed over they have the upper hand.
Where we go from here I'm still not sure, run the risk of having our wedding ruined by an argument, cancel and take the hit, or proceed with attempts for a refund

How long before we see the pictures after the wedding?
Your photographs will be available for viewing within 24 hours of the reception.

From his website ..... all I can say is anyone who is capable of turning around wedding photographs within 24hours does not post process them or has a team of people working behind the scenes.

this would have set alarm bells off if it was asked in the photography section of boards PRIOR to booking.

have you tried to complain to

is a member of the following professional associations:
Irish Professional Photographers Association
Master Photographers Association
Society of Wedding and Portrait Photographers
He has been awarded Licentiates from each of these bodies.

doriansmith

I think you'd be mad to go ahead with him. Your wedding photos are so important and not only does it sound like you won't get great photos, but the day will probably be tainted by the bad blood between him and your family. I know it's a lot of money to lose but I'd be looking for a new photographer asap, regardless of whether you get anywhere with a refund.

lazygal

doriansmith wrote: »

I think you'd be mad to go ahead with him. Your wedding photos are so important and not only does it sound like you won't get great photos, but the day will probably be tainted by the bad blood between him and your family. I know it's a lot of money to lose but I'd be looking for a new photographer asap, regardless of whether you get anywhere with a refund.

Agree totally. You'll get a disk package elsewhere, add album and prints when you can afford it. After the day is over they'll be the main momento. I wouldn't give the man another cent.

johnny_adidas

Corkbah wrote: »

From his website ..... all I can say is anyone who is capable of turning around wedding photographs within 24hours does not post process them or has a team of people working behind the scenes.

this would have set alarm bells off if it was asked in the photography section of boards PRIOR to booking.

have you tried to complain to

Yes we tried complaining to the lippa who were quiet frankly useless saying they had never had an issue with the photographer. It might be worth highlighting the issues found online to them though now. Maybe they would get more involved

Corkbah

johnny_adidas wrote: »

Yes we tried complaining to the lippa who were quiet frankly useless saying they had never had an issue with the photographer. It might be worth highlighting the issues found online to them though now. Maybe they would get more involved

you should also highlight that you tried to complain to "professional groups" which he is affiliated and their attitude.

I am a professional photographer and find that if a group does something like that ...they are trying to protect their name/reputation but also ignoring the possibility that one or some of them made a mistake at some point and essentially they are reluctant to do what they claim they are doing - holding high standards in photography.

johnny_adidas

Just want to follow up with an update on this. In the end, we cancelled our contract with Pat McCoole Photography. We had asked for the album we had selected initially, as a gesture of good will against the deposit, at which stage we would part ways. He seemed willing to do this but as he had also seen this thread, asked for it to be removed as part of the deal. However after some things he said on the phone to my wife, we decided to take the hit and not have any further dealings with him at all.

It turned out to be one of the best decisions we made and ended up using a local husband/wife pairing who couldn't have been nicer to us. They did an engagement shoot, to get us a bit more relaxed with them and look at any particular shots we wanted. The day went off without a hitch and my wife was so comfortable with them, which shows in the photos. An extra special touch was an unexpected appearance during the day-after party to give us a canvas print of a special shot as a gift to us. All this without any deposit required and booking just a few weeks before the wedding.

We got our photos a few weeks after getting back from Honeymoon and have since gone back for a studio shoot at Xmas. I would like to thank everyone here for their advice and must say that, between them and you, my faith in photographers has been repaired. Hopefully no one else will have any bad experiences dealing with Pat McCoole, but i very much doubt it

dazberry

johnny_adidas wrote: »

Since then it transpired that the photographer dragged his heals when it came to their album. Im sure such things happen from time to time, however, this photographer has in the last month stopped taking their calls and blocked their emails. (They had to ring from a new number at one stage which he answered and promised to ring back, which he did not). They have now had to go down the legal route.

Sorry to pull back up this thread. Johnny_adidas did your fiancé's sister even get any resolution with that photographer. Unfortunately we are in the same position since 2012 and with the absence of any returned calls or emails I feel we have little alternative now but to go down the legal route.

D.

AoifeCork

dazberry wrote: »

Sorry to pull back up this thread. Johnny_adidas did your fiancé's sister even get any resolution with that photographer. Unfortunately we are in the same position since 2012 and with the absence of any returned calls or emails I feel we have little alternative now but to go down the legal route.

D.

HOLY LIATHROIDÍ! Legal route ASAP my friend. :O

dazberry

AoifeCork wrote: »

HOLY LIATHROIDÍ! Legal route ASAP my friend. :O

Well when I say since 2012, I mean that we got married in 2012, we are approaching our 2nd anniversary, the last contact we had was last christmas only because we spotted him in a local pub and collared him. Regrettably without any engagement there's little else I can do at this point but start down the legal route.

D.

Bacchus

dazberry wrote: »

Well when I say since 2012, I mean that we got married in 2012, we are approaching our 2nd anniversary, the last contact we had was last christmas only because we spotted him in a local pub and collared him. Regrettably without any engagement there's little else I can do at this point but start down the legal route.

D.

I think AoifeCork understood that bit when she said

HOLY LIATHROIDÍ! Legal route ASAP my friend

2 years waiting for your photos is off the scale of unacceptably late. We had ours within a month, the photo album within 3 months.

The last contact you had was 8 months ago! And only happened because you bumped into him! Have you been chasing him regularly for the past 2 years? What has he said? Has he ever given a reason for the delay?

If you have been chasing him and he's been ignoring you, then take the legal route ASAP. If it's a case of neither side really been engaging with each other, try and speak with him (I assume since he's a local, he's easy to find) and sort it out first.

johnny_adidas

Sister-in-law got a solicitor involved and went down the Small Claims route. As they had a contract in place and album was never provided by the photographer, they had a valid claim. They eventually got it, as part of a settlement rather than day in court.

I have since spoken to someone else who also had a problem with Pat McCoole and spent the day outside his house/business in Thurles until it was sorted.

I would certainly be going down the Small Claims route at this stage.
You could however file the claim yourself. The registrar in Clonmel, for example, is very helpful and may be able to negotiate a settlement before going to court.
This would save you wasting any further money on him (employing a solicitor).

dazberry

Bacchus wrote: »

The last contact you had was 8 months ago! And only happened because you bumped into him! Have you been chasing him regularly for the past 2 years? What has he said? Has he ever given a reason for the delay?

While we dragged our feet the first 5/6 months ourselves, I managed to get to speak to him twice since the wedding. The first time was a year ago when we were attempting to get a CD of the photos as to make a selection where he was apologetic about the delay and sent it immediately. The last was by chance in the arch late last year where he claimed he had lost a quantity of email due to an issue with his mail hosting provider, and I had to resend the selection of photos we wanted included.

The majority of emails I have sent him have returned read receipt notification, but none have been replied to. The last email I sent was around 6 weeks ago the last time I rang was last week. Anyway, that's all incidental, I've been extremely matter of fact in the last few correspondences and there is no where for me left to go with this but legal.

Thanks for all the feedback guys...

D.

Bacchus

Do ye have the photos so? You say he sent a CD with the photos? So is it just that you've paid for him to create an album but he hasn't delivered on that? Considering he has been ignoring you, go the legal route. Or, you could cut your losses and get an album made elsewhere. I suppose it depends on the costs incurred and/or if you want to follow through out of principle.

dazberry

Bacchus wrote: »

Do ye have the photos so? You say he sent a CD with the photos? So is it just that you've paid for him to create an album but he hasn't delivered on that? Considering he has been ignoring you, go the legal route. Or, you could cut your losses and get an album made elsewhere. I suppose it depends on the costs incurred and/or if you want to follow through out of principle.

Well not exactly, we have a CD with low(er) resolution copies of the photos, which we were to use as a reference and select a specific number for inclusion in the actual album(s), which we did last September (and resent list in December). On cost alone it's not something I would be prepared to write off

D.

Bacchus

dazberry wrote: »

Well not exactly, we have a CD with low(er) resolution copies of the photos, which we were to use as a reference and select a specific number for inclusion in the actual album(s), which we did last September (and resent list in December). On cost alone it's not something I would be prepared to write off

D.

Ah that sucks. Best of luck getting your photos. Go the legal route and be proactive about it. Yer man probably thinks it's been 2 years, they haven't bothered me much, forget about it.