What happens if you don't pay your ESB?

ebixa82

Hi,

I am in a dispute with ESB at the moment over an outstanding amount (long story).

I phoned them several times and each person I spoke to was as rude, ignorant and incompetent as the next.

I phoned airtricity and their rates are 16% cheaper with a further 14% discount when paid by DD. I have set up an account with bills to be paid by DD.

Is there anyway ESB can come after me for the outstanding amount? They can't exactly cut the power off as it is now being supplied by Airtricity!

RiseToMe

Airticity get their electricity from esb..
However, I don't know if esb can stop supplying you via them

cml387

Can you change to airtricity if you have an overdue bill?
I understood that a bill overdue by sixty days or owing greater than 250 euro would cause a problem.

the groutch

ebixa82 wrote: »

Is there anyway ESB can come after me for the outstanding amount? They can't exactly cut the power off as it is now being supplied by Airtricity!

yes, they can take you to court over it, which if a judgement is made against you will effect your credit rating.

Yawns

I'd double check the rates Airtricity are quoting you tbh. 16% cheaper and an extra 14% off for Direct Debit? Usually before they only offer an extra 2% off if paying with DD.

L1011

Expect eirtricity to not be able to transfer the metering.

Also, those rates are clearly incorrect and even then, their standing charges are far higher

the_syco

ebixa82 wrote: »

their rates are 16% cheaper with a further 14% discount when paid by DD.

Get these rates written down.

ebixa82

the_syco wrote: »

Get these rates written down.

Actually, my bad. The rates are not 16% cheaper. They are 14% cheaper because of direct debit payments.

Standing charge is 8c per day more expensive. 49c vs 41c.

I'm currently in dispute with ESB over my bill (280e). Airtricity didn't seem to care about this thou as I'm paying by DD.

Received a closing bill from ESB for 4 days between last bill and closing of a/c. No contact made by ESB otherwise on the issue.

the_syco

I'd wonder if ESB disconnects you, how much do you have to pay Airtricity to reconnect? I ask as reconnection fees are usually around the €150 mark.

ebixa82

the_syco wrote: »

I'd wonder if ESB disconnects you, how much do you have to pay Airtricity to reconnect? I ask as reconnection fees are usually around the €150 mark.

ESB said they charge 75e to disconnect and that Air WOULD charge me 75e to re-connect.

However, when I phoned Air they told me they didn't charge any re-connection fee.

Yawns

^^ I'd get that in writing before you do anything.

StillWaters

Yawns wrote: »

^^ I'd get that in writing before you do anything.

Not to mention your credit rating. 5 years with no access to credit cards, loan, mortage etc. 5 years is a long time with an impaired credit rating.

Yawns

Electric Ireland cannot touch his credit rating.

EI can only affect a credit rating if they're members of the Irish Credit Bureau, and I don't think they are.

It's no longer possible to "debt hop" so Airtricity wouldn't be allowed to take over the supply unless the EI debt was cleared.

Victor

Yawns wrote: »

Electric Ireland cannot touch his credit rating.

Being sued and having a court judgement just might.

solas111

Don’t burn your bridges with the ESB because people that I know who changed to Airtricity ended up going back to the bad old ESB and were glad they had the option.

bassey

Just on the re and disconnection fees, they're the same across the board. Whichever supplier wants it done requests ESB Networks to do it, ESB Networks charge the supplier and this is charged to the customer.

ebixa82

I should specify I was never actually disconnected. I had an electricity supply when I switched.

They took over my account, even though I had a (disputed) outstanding ESB bill.

the_syco

ebixa82 wrote: »

I should specify I was never actually disconnected. I had an electricity supply when I switched.

They took over my account, even though I had a (disputed) outstanding ESB bill.

Okay, things seem a bit muddled.

Who are you with now?
Why do you dispute the charges?
Are you renting, or do you own the property?

ebixa82

the_syco wrote: »

Okay, things seem a bit muddled.

Who are you with now?
Why do you dispute the charges?
Are you renting, or do you own the property?

I was renting out the property. Moved back in on my own in November. The ESB is and was in my name. The tenant paid ESB to end of Oct., for two months it was 100e. He paid it and moved out.

I moved in, took storage heaters out, installed Lucht heaters, don't use emersion just electric shower. Was expecting a low bill. Bill came to 280e for two months.

The last bill was obviously a gross under estimate by them and they added on the difference to this bill. I didn't realise it at the time, tenant moved out, my own fault for not expecting this but I was away on holidays at the time.

Phoned them up, dealt with 3 ignorant pricks on 3 separate occassions, had enough and moved to Airtricity.

ESB sent me a closing bill. Will see how Airtricity go, but based on people's reactions here..maybe I was a bit too quick to make the jump!

bidiots

Devil's advocate here - Regardless of cause or circumstance, there is an amount owing that's accurate?

From what I can gather, your previous tenant has been 'lucky' to receive a low estimate bill and now you are left with the actual cost.

As bitter the pill is to swallow, either chase the previous tenant for what effectively is an unpaid bill(unlikely but what harm) or stump up yourself. A harsh lesson to learn but I imagine it won't happen you again.

ebixa82

bidiots wrote: »

Devil's advocate here - Regardless of cause or circumstance, there is an amount owing that's accurate?

From what I can gather, your previous tenant has been 'lucky' to receive a low estimate bill and now you are left with the actual cost.

As bitter the pill is to swallow, either chase the previous tenant for what effectively is an unpaid bill(unlikely but what harm) or stump up yourself. A harsh lesson to learn but I imagine it won't happen you again.

Exaclty. Tenant was lucky and there are two chances of getting anything off him.
The reasons I am pissed with ESB:

1) Why do they have to make such a gross underestimation

2) All three of the customer service reps were as thick, ill informed, unhelpful and ignorant as the next.

I got burnt, will put that bill on the long finger as more pressing bills to pay but will probably end up paying it eventually.

Yawns

Aye it seems as if there is nothing to dispute here. Bill was in your name and estimate readings were sent that the tenant paid. Hindsight is great in all I know, but you really should have had the bill in the tenants name or submitted meter readings once a month to ensure correct usage. Ultimately I think the actual reading bill you got from ESB is your responsibility and you should pay it. You could try to get the tenant to pay but how likely is that going to be. As said above, it's one of those expensive lessons and at some stage everyone learns one.

There is a chance that the transfer over won't go through but even if it does, ESB will still be sending out reminders for the bill.

bidiots

ebixa82 wrote: »

Exaclty. Tenant was lucky and there are two chances of getting anything off him.
The reasons I am pissed with ESB:

1) Why do they have to make such a gross underestimation

2) All three of the customer service reps were as thick, ill informed, unhelpful and ignorant as the next.

I got burnt, will put that bill on the long finger as more pressing bills to pay but will probably end up paying it eventually.

I hear you....I don't understand their estimate structure whatsoever. If it was based on past usage then it should be more accurate than it is, although there has to be allowance for different tenant/different usage on your part I suppose.

Dealing with these guys can be as frustrating as constipation, more so when you are dealing with inept reps. Give them a payment plan that suits you, at least show you are trying to deal with the bill.

Best of luck with it

Yawns

This is why I shouldn't leave tabs open too long, you've already replied

the_syco

ebixa82 wrote: »

I moved in, took storage heaters out, installed Lucht heaters, don't use emersion just electric shower. Was expecting a low bill. Bill came to 280e for two months.

Why did you expect a low bill for using electric heaters?

ebixa82

the_syco wrote: »

Why did you expect a low bill for using electric heaters?

I got one of these installed..

http://www.smartelectrics.ie/lucht-radiators

They are 60% cheaper than storage heaters to run. Just switch them on and off as required.

I use them usually just for 2 hours in the evening, leave them on overnight 1-2 nights a week to dry clothes, and during day at weekends.

My closing bill for ESB included 4 days of current bill cycle. Worked out as 2e per day (good for winter).

Very happy with them.

Victor

ebixa82 wrote: »

3 ignorant pricks

Moderate your language please.

Moderator

ebixa82

Victor wrote: »

Moderate your language please.

Moderator

Apologies

ThunbergsAreGo

I had a similar experience to the OP with Electric Ireland and found them to be entirely incompetent and have serious problems with their internal communications. Due to this i had to pay them money for a debt which they had previously indicated had been wiped (through a third party).. In the end i have to pay and will never ever go back. The whole experience was appalling, for example getting letters threathening to cut off my supply for an unpaid bill which had (A) been previously explained and (B) wasnt paid due to a block put on by the company THEMSELVES!!

You cant change if you have a bill of greater than 250 outstanding. Think you are in a tough position OP

bidiots

ebixa82 wrote: »

Apologies

I salute your patience and acceptance;)

ebixa82

naughtb4 wrote: »

I had a similar experience to the OP with Electric Ireland and found them to be entirely incompetent and have serious problems with their internal communications. Due to this i had to pay them money for a debt which they had previously indicated had been wiped (through a third party).. In the end i have to pay and will never ever go back. The whole experience was appalling, for example getting letters threathening to cut off my supply for an unpaid bill which had (A) been previously explained and (B) wasnt paid due to a block put on by the company THEMSELVES!!

You cant change if you have a bill of greater than 250 outstanding. Think you are in a tough position OP

The bill was for 280e. I phoned Airtricity to confirm and I have already been switched over. ESB also sent me a closing bill which was for previous bill cycled plus four days of this cycle.

As I said above, the 4 days worked out at €8, so my bill should've been €120 for two months (good for winter usage) but is actually €280.

I completely accept that I am liable for this debt as the account is in my name. I was just unfortunate to move back the month after a gross underestimate was given (and the previous tenant was very lucky!).

ANOTHER THING that pissed me off:

I asked them could they at least tell me the breakdown of the last bill i.e. what amount was attributable to the under-estimate and what was the actual bill for the previous two months. They said it would be impossible to do so, making it very difficult for me to go back to the previous tenant and ask for payment by him.

Akrasia

Why haven't you paid them the portion of the bill that you believe you are responsible for. Pay them the 120 euro that you think is your portion and at least that will bring the outstanding balance down and it will look good if you are brought to court (might not make a difference to the judgement though)

ebixa82

Akrasia wrote: »

Why haven't you paid them the portion of the bill that you believe you are responsible for. Pay them the 120 euro that you think is your portion and at least that will bring the outstanding balance down and it will look good if you are brought to court (might not make a difference to the judgement though)

Won't make any difference. I accept I'm responsible for the whole lot as the bill is in my name. I would have no case in court.

As I said, I'll probably end up having to pay it...but it will be the least of my expense priorities.

Yawns

Akrasia wrote: »

Why haven't you paid them the portion of the bill that you believe you are responsible for. Pay them the 120 euro that you think is your portion and at least that will bring the outstanding balance down and it will look good if you are brought to court (might not make a difference to the judgement though)

As he knows himself he is responsible for the entire bill as it is in his name. It's an unfortunate situation he has found himself in as clearly the tenant received estimated readings and paid those accordingly.

air

Can't see how the ESB have put a foot wrong to be honest.
As for those Lucht heaters, they are no better than any standard convection heater in terms of energy efficiency.
Their "savings" calculation seems to be based on the fact that storage heaters leak most of their heat before it is demanded by the user.
This is only true if you don't require heat in the morning or during the day.

If you have the option to use gas or oil for space heating it will be far cheaper than either option and furthermore if you have a high occupancy rate (home all day) then a storage heater would likely work out far cheaper to run than the Lucht heaters.

Clive

ebixa82 wrote: »

ANOTHER THING that pissed me off
I asked them could they at least tell me the breakdown of the last bill i.e. what amount was attributable to the under-estimate and what was the actual bill for the previous two months. They said it would be impossible to do so, making it very difficult for me to go back to the previous tenant and ask for payment by him.

In fairness to them how could they? They would need an accurate meter reading from two months ago, the estimated reading which was billed and the actual meter reading at the end of the billing period.

They can't monitor usage without meter readings, so they use estimates.

RustyNut

Either they cut you off or take you to court.

ebixa82

air wrote: »

Can't see how the ESB have put a foot wrong to be honest.
As for those Lucht heaters, they are no better than any standard convection heater in terms of energy efficiency.
Their "savings" calculation seems to be based on the fact that storage heaters leak most of their heat before it is demanded by the user.
This is only true if you don't require heat in the morning or during the day.

If you have the option to use gas or oil for space heating it will be far cheaper than either option and furthermore if you have a high occupancy rate (home all day) then a storage heater would likely work out far cheaper to run than the Lucht heaters.

Either way they work out cheaper. I'm home for 2-3 hours in the evening so storage are useless and they are way cheaper to run than traditional electric heaters.

This works out way more economical than gas or oil too.

Clive wrote: »

In fairness to them how could they? They would need an accurate meter reading from two months ago, the estimated reading which was billed and the actual meter reading at the end of the billing period.

They can't monitor usage without meter readings, so they use estimates.

Yes but no need to supply grossly miscalculated meter readings at the same time.

RustyNut wrote: »

Either they cut you off or take you to court.

They can't cut me off as they don't supply my electricity, Airtricity do!

air

Yeah, storage heaters are a disaster if you want heat in the evening, had the same experience myself.
However gas or oil should be a lot cheaper for you than instant electric heating unless maybe you only occupy a small portion of your home? Do you have a wet heating system (gas/oil/solid fuel) available to you?

The estimated bill issue was unfortunate but it's up to you as the bill payer to keep on top of this.

ebixa82

air wrote: »

Yeah, storage heaters are a disaster if you want heat in the evening, had the same experience myself.
However gas or oil should be a lot cheaper for you than instant electric heating unless maybe you only occupy a small portion of your home? Do you have a wet heating system (gas/oil/solid fuel) available to you?

The estimated bill issue was unfortunate but it's up to you as the bill payer to keep on top of this.

It's a small 2 bed apt. No option for anything else. I'd only need the living area heated normally.

The lucht heaters are not standard electric heaters

http://www.smartelectrics.ie/lucht-radiators

I don't know much about the science behind them but they are alot cheaper than normal electric heaters.

Re the bill, as I've said, I'm 100% liable but ESB were horrific to deal with. Had they been in anyway decent I would have stayed with them and paid it off!

air

That's fair enough, it's a travesty that so many apartments were built in this country with no option for anything other than electric heating.

I've read the spiel on the Lucht heaters, they are no more efficient than any other electric heater. It's all smoke and mirrors / snake oil / marketing speak.

There's no getting away from the physics of energy in = energy out, every electric heater is 100% efficient.
There's a bit of scope for varying perceptions of levels of radiant heat with different varieties - halogen vs convection etc but in terms of actually heating the air in a whole room they're all the same.

I appreciate that you are seeing a perceived improvement in energy efficiency vs your storage heaters but you would have seen the same benefits with any instant electric heater.
Storage heaters aren't actually a bad idea if you have to use electric heat (avoid at all costs though), the problem with them is that current models are designed really poorly with hopeless levels of insulation. For someone like you they would have lost all their stored energy to the room already by the time you get home in the evening.

the_syco

One thing to note for the next time you rent your house out: take the reading from the metre and give it to the ESB/etc when the tenant moves out, so that they give an accurate bill to the tenant, and not an estimate.

melekalikimaka

RiseToMe wrote: »

Airticity get their electricity from esb..
However, I don't know if esb can stop supplying you via them

no they dont, company spilt a few years ago.

they can chase the debt, or write it off. as a rule no other supplier will take you on, but thats not always the case

ebixa82

melekalikimaka wrote: »

no they dont, company spilt a few years ago.

they can chase the debt, or write it off. as a rule no other supplier will take you on, but thats not always the case

I think the only reason Airtricity took me on is that I agreed to sign up to direct debit, otherwise they wouldn't have touched me.

Don't understand how ESB haven't got some legal block against this. What's to stop loads of others just building up a massive debt then jumping ship?

The bill I received for 4 days from ESB's closing bill was 8e. So average was 2e per day, 120e for two months. So 160e was from their under-estimate.

Maybe they need to review their estimation process.

Esel

I hope you don't regret moving to Airtricity. I think they have received a lot of negative comments here on Boards, especially regarding their use of Direct Debit system.

air

An estimate is always going to be just that - an estimate, how are the ESB to know that you have installed new heaters and that you usage has changed?
Presumably storage heaters were in use in the apartment for a number of years and thus the ESB's estimates would have been based on that historical usage.

It seems to me that you are looking for excuses for yourself for walking away from a debt which you are liable for fair and square.
It's no concern of the ESB or anyone else if you made a mistake managing your tenancy.

This kind of laissez faire attitude to walking away from debts is a big part of the reason this country is in the state it is in. By rights the ESB and other utilities should be pursuing non payment vigourously through the courts to discourage this kind of behaviour which only increases the cost of utilities for everyone else who pay their bills on time and in full.

ebixa82

air wrote: »

An estimate is always going to be just that - an estimate, how are the ESB to know that you have installed new heaters and that you usage has changed?
Presumably storage heaters were in use in the apartment for a number of years and thus the ESB's estimates would have been based on that historical usage.

It seems to me that you are looking for excuses for yourself for walking away from a debt which you are liable for fair and square.
It's no concern of the ESB or anyone else if you made a mistake managing your tenancy.

This kind of laissez faire attitude to walking away from debts is a big part of the reason this country is in the state it is in. By rights the ESB and other utilities should be pursuing non payment vigourously through the courts to discourage this kind of behaviour which only increases the cost of utilities for everyone else who pay their bills on time and in full.

You've got it backways there. If the estimate was based on historical usage and probable use of storage heaters then the estimate should have been much, much higher...not far lower than what one would expect. You have a background in heating, you should understand that.

As I have said repeatedly I am not walking away from any debt. I cancelled my contract because of the sh.ite customer service arising from the issue.

I never said I wouldn't pay and to date the ESB is not even overdue yet.

ebixa82

Esel wrote: »

I hope you don't regret moving to Airtricity. I think they have received a lot of negative comments here on Boards, especially regarding their use of Direct Debit system.

I know, serious negative press on boards! Two suppliers both as crap as the other by the looks of it.

air

You're correct, I got that wrong, although it's possible that your tentant used the heaters a lot more than you.
Again this is a change that the ESB couldn't hope to predict?
Out of interest how does their estimate compare with the bill for the same period the year before?
In my experience they are reasonably accurate with their estimates.

If you fully intend to pay the bill then why are you asking the question posed by this thread's title?
This thread seems a bit pointless to be honest, it seems you just created it to have a rant about a mistake you made.
I have the height of respect for anyone with the patience to work in customer service and I'm sure you tested their mettle.
You are the account holder, you or your tenants used the energy and thus you need to pay for it.

I understand the mistake that you made and it was unfortunate but what did you seriously expect from customer service - some consolation, a bit of tenderness and a few kind words telling you how unlucky you were? Or maybe you were expecting them to take some of your pain and accept half your losses? Sure while you're at it why not ask them to cover your losses on your bet for ManU in the Champions League - it's about as relevant to them.

In conclusion, if you let a property, either:
1. Take a meter reading and sign the bill over to the tenant.
OR
2. If you remain the bill payer, ensure you take a meter reading when the tenant leaves and don't return their deposit until they pay in full.

If you don't do either of the above you've only yourself to blame for any consequences and only you will be liable for any losses incurred.

the groutch

I have electric storage heating, but rarely use it because I discovered something called a jumper.
Seriously, how hard is it for someone to put on an extra layer or two in the winter?