S2S Cycleway - northside

lennymc

I can imagine the headline in a couple of years

"locals outraged as flood defences fail to defend against floods"

report suggest they should have been higher......

cdaly_

Rogue-Trooper wrote: »

Link

Did they really say "no higher than necessary"? That sounds like carte-blanche for a 3-metre wall to me.

I wonder how many of the 'locals' out protesting yesterday actually live in the flood zone and have suffered uninsured losses?...

Leroy42

I live close to the area and I do understand the worry of the residents. It is a great view across the bay and to have it behind a wall is a shame.

However, surely the greater good must be considered. As mentioned above, if a flood should occur will be residents be happy to have damage to their homes and uninsurable properties like in other parts.

If they want to enjoy the view so much, then taking it in while sitting in the car is kinda missing the point somewhat.

As a local resident surely they can walk/cycle down to enjoy the view and enjoy the exercise while they are at it.

On a slightly different point, the coupling of these works to the extension of the bike path is now having the obvious effect of this wall being apportioned to the bike path, when it actually has little/nothing to do with it

odyssey06

People seem to be assuming the only feasible flood defence is a massive fixed concrete wall. It isn't. There are places in England that I've never even heard of that are putting in more advanced and\or flexible flood defences than DCC feel is warranted for our capital city.
One must also consider the safety aspect, in some proposals for flood defences proposed by DCC, cyclists and pedestrians would be isolated from view of the road and houses behind head height walls. Seems like a recipe for crime and anti-social behavour to me.

Raam

I did hear that it is more than a wall and that there is water storage in place, but that was from talking with a mate.

Lusk_Doyle

Lots of places (both public and private) use underground storage chambers with drainage controls to alleviate flooding and reduce the risk of it also. Much better than walls but more costly.

lennymc

"Locals outraged at cost of flood defences "

"I can't see any flood defences." Said one local. "They just dug up the road and put it back down again. It would have been better had they built a big wall."

Mercian Pro

Raam wrote: »

I did hear that it is more than a wall and that there is water storage in place, but that was from talking with a mate.

Your mate may be confusing water storage with the trunk water main that is a major element of the scheme.

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Lots of places (both public and private) use underground storage chambers with drainage controls to alleviate flooding and reduce the risk of it also. Much better than walls but more costly.

Attenuation tanks are often used to slow the flow of flood water from land drains but I have never heard of them being used for sea flooding.

Lusk_Doyle

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Your mate may be confusing water storage with the trunk water main that is a major element of the scheme.



Attenuation tanks are often used to slow the flow of flood water from land drains but I have never heard of them being used for sea flooding.

Me neither but there is always a first time for everything...

Mercian Pro

cdaly_ wrote: »

Did they really say "no higher than necessary"?

Cop-out #1 - the Councillors want to make sure that they can't be blamed if the height of the wall is reduced and there is flooding at some stage.

Cop-out #2 - they are also well aware that motions like this are not binding on the Manager/DCC but look good when they go looking for votes next year.

Mercian Pro

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Me neither but there is always a first time for everything...

There goes St Anne's park:)

Raam

I wonder was he talking about flood bunding.
http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content//WaterWasteEnvironment/Documents/08159.pdf

Lusk_Doyle

Raam wrote: »

I wonder was he talking about flood bunding.
http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content//WaterWasteEnvironment/Documents/08159.pdf

Never thought that I'd see the day when you even heard about or knew what bunding was!

mrcheez

Rogue-Trooper wrote: »

Hmmmm, looks like we could be 'running the gaunlet' at the roadworks for a while yet so.

I'm curious why people still drive home in the evening on this route and don't just use the Howth Road as a temporary bypass, surely scraping several minutes off their commute.

I've become immune to cars beeping me when I take the lane in the narrow sections, surely they can understand by now there isn't room to pass?

Raam

My sources say they will be opening the road back up for winter and shutting down operations till April.

cdaly_

mrcheez wrote: »

I've become immune to cars beeping me when I take the lane in the narrow sections, surely they can understand by now there isn't room to pass?

They never beep at me. Or maybe it's just my headphones blocking out all the sound...

Carawaystick

I presume the dog dirt bins blocking half the cycle lane further northbound are remaining in place?

mathie

I arrived at the roadworks this morning heading southbound and there were about 10 cars at the lights.
I filtered up to the STOP/GO sign and sat behind the three other cyclists who were waiting.
Sign turns green and off we all go.

First car speeds off and I pass the 3rd cyclist. I looked around to check and signalled as I always do when overtaking.
About 5 seconds later I hear some frantic beeping and look around at a guy in a 4x4 overtaking the last cyclist.

I've caught up on the second cyclist now and look and indicate that Im passing him. I maintain central position and I'm about to pass the first cyclist.

The guy in the 4x4 doesn't like this. For anyone who has cyclist or driven there it's very tight to pass a cyclist. Barriers on one side and a high kerb on the other. Any wobble would be dangerous.

So I hear him beeping and revving and then when we clear the roadworks he says "You deserve a f**king smack"
"Pardon me?"
"You deserve a f**king smack. I was at the lights before you."

So he was annoyed that I filtered past him while he waited at the lights.

I pointed to my non-existent camera and said "You're being recorded. I'll see you in the Garda Station."

His jaw actually dropped. No more words were uttered and off he drove.

Still nice morning for a cycle.

mrcheez

mathie wrote: »

I pointed to my non-existent camera and said "You're being recorded. I'll see you in the Garda Station."

His jaw actually dropped. No more words were uttered and off he drove

I have a GoPro attached to the rear of my bike in clear view. I'm lazy so haven't charged the thing in several months so don't really use it anymore, but I've had drivers noticeably give me a wider berth since I put it on.

I used to regularly have drivers come within 20cm of my bike when overtaking but now it's largely down to 1m since I added the GoPro.

I might even light it up on the dark mornings/evenings

Mercian Pro

Raam wrote: »

My sources say they will be opening the road back up for winter and shutting down operations till April.

That was mentioned in a presentation to the Councillors too. I think it's so as to avoid disturbing the wintering birds!

No doubt they will fully reinstate the road (including the bike lanes) until they start up again in four months:rolleyes:

Raam

Mercian Pro wrote: »

That was mentioned in a presentation to the Councillors too. I think it's so as to avoid disturbing the wintering birds!

No doubt they will fully reinstate the road (including the bike lanes) until they start up again in four months:rolleyes:

Aye, tis the Brent Geese! They must be landing soon.

buffalo

DCC posted about the wall construction and future consultation yesterday: http://www.dublincity.ie/dublin-city-council-clarifies-aspects-flood-alleviation-cycleway-and-watermain-works-clontarf-0

Leroy42

buffalo wrote: »

DCC posted about the wall construction and future consultation yesterday: http://www.dublincity.ie/dublin-city-council-clarifies-aspects-flood-alleviation-cycleway-and-watermain-works-clontarf-0

Pretty succinct and thought out.

I can't see much that people can complain about in that.

One thing I did get confused by was the schedule of works. Does it not say that work can only be carried to from March to Sept, but they are still working in November?

Squeaksoutloud

The Part 8 for this project allows works over winter but just not in the estuary / nature reserve area. They are allowed continue up on the road with services footpaths etc. I think they were to build a wall further down near Bay restaurant but that wont be commencing until April I believe due to the restrictions.

buffalo

Leroy42 wrote: »

Pretty succinct and thought out.

As far as I can see, the time line has been this:
1 flooding along the coastline, residents complain
2 DCC starts building flood defences, residents complain
I'm betting next is:
3 see step 1

Leroy42

The residents seem to be complaining because flooding hasn't occurred in that particular area. They are of course conveniently forgetting that building extra flood defences along anywhere on the stretch will have a knock on effect on other parts and completely failing to take into account the almost certain (I leave the 'almost' there for anyone still not convinced) sea levels rising in the future which will necessitate forward planning.

As the response itself points out, forward planning isn't exactly what DCC (or any CC for that matter) are noted for so in this aspect they seem to have taken the view to better be safe than sorry.

I think they put the whole glass wall arguement to bed for the silly notion that it is.

odyssey06

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think they put the whole glass wall arguement to bed for the silly notion that it is.

I suppose with everything we know of DCC, it was silly to expect Dublin to have flood defences of the same standard as such world famous locations as Wells Next to Sea, Norfolk, England.

mathie

Leroy42 wrote: »

The residents seem to be complaining because flooding hasn't occurred in that particular area. They are of course conveniently forgetting that building extra flood defences along anywhere on the stretch will have a knock on effect on other parts and completely failing to take into account the almost certain (I leave the 'almost' there for anyone still not convinced) sea levels rising in the future which will necessitate forward planning.

As the response itself points out, forward planning isn't exactly what DCC (or any CC for that matter) are noted for so in this aspect they seem to have taken the view to better be safe than sorry.

I think they put the whole glass wall arguement to bed for the silly notion that it is.

Why is it a "silly notion"?

Leroy42

odyssey06 wrote: »

I suppose with everything we know of DCC, it was silly to expect Dublin to have flood defences of the same standard as such world famous locations as Wells Next to Sea, Norfolk, England.

I don't see any glass walls on their flood defences?

OK, 'silly' is the wrong word. Fanciful is probably better. What you have is people sitting in metal vehicles, driving on tarmac roads complaining about a concrete wall. A concrete wall that if they got out and walked would cause no problem at all.

But instead they want to have a glass wall put up. Anyone with a shower door will know that glass is very hard to keep clean. Water, salt, debries from the water. Bird sh1t, algae etc. So, as the letter points out, on top of the additional money required to buy and install the wall, it would then require even more money to maintain.

odyssey06

Wells Next to Sea, use of glass flood defences... I would not consider it a fanciful solution, more expensive perhaps but then so are property tax and commercial rates in Clontarf versus average Dublin rates.
http://www.floodcontrolinternational.com/CASE-STUDIES/case-study-wells.html

If the sightlines of people in motor vehicles should not be considered:
(1) Their sightline shouldn't be included in planning documents stating that there will be minimal impact on ALL sightlines
(2) What's the point of encouraging the Wild Atlantic Way and Achill Atlantic drive?

But I'm not trying to make this into a car v cyclist scenario. This is another round in the Clontarf flood defences battle, this time it's the sightline of motor vehicles; next time it'll either be the sightline of cyclists, or else both cyclists & pedestrians will be isolated and hidden from view of the road. Nearby Fairview Park is already a no-go area after dark, we don't want Clontarf Promenade to turn into another one.

lennymc

^^^ those glass flood defences appear to be mounted on a wall (that to me, looks about the same height as the wall in clontarf).

Just saying.

Leroy42

lennymc got in before me.

So they have actually made the flood defences even higher over there, using glass to increase the height. In Clontarf they are saying that the height of the wall itself is sufficient for now and many years to come.

mrcheez

lennymc wrote: »

^^^ those glass flood defences appear to be mounted on a wall (that to me, looks about the same height as the wall in clontarf).

Just saying.

Wouldn't that be a target for the kids that smash bus shelters?

traprunner

I think the glass walls should be erected and then the property tax in the area increased 4 or 5 fold to pay for it and the upkeep. Also, an additional tax on the sale of property in Clontarf to pay for future flood defences would be great too.

odyssey06

mrcheez wrote: »

Wouldn't that be a target for the kids that smash bus shelters?

I'm assuming that flood defence glass will be made of tougher stuff than the bus shelter one... which seems to be a racket for whoever has the contract with Dublin Bus to replace the glass.

I think the glass could have been a feasible solution to the particular stretch that was already done ... but now it becomes important for the rest of the line. The technology here has moved on since DCC's cursory investigations in 2011.

Mercian Pro

From the 2009 EIS:
"The entire promenade will have an opaque screen of 90 cm height to break the outline of users (walking or cyclists) and hide (most) dogs from the view of birds on the flats below."

Now you know why it's not glass;)

odyssey06

Mercian Pro wrote: »

From the 2009 EIS:
"The entire promenade will have an opaque screen of 90 cm height to break the outline of users (walking or cyclists) and hide (most) dogs from the view of birds on the flats below."
Now you know why it's not glass;)

Strange, the birds have been doing fine for 50 years without a screen... And couldn't the screen be horizontal?
Does the EIS say anything about the impact of projected sea levels on bird habitats?

Mercian Pro

odyssey06 wrote: »

Strange, the birds have been doing fine for 50 years without a screen... And couldn't the screen be horizontal?
Does the EIS say anything about the impact of projected sea levels on bird habitats?

Feel free to read all 482 pages of it - Raam has posted a link to it on the previous page.

buffalo

odyssey06 wrote: »

(2) What's the point of encouraging the Wild Atlantic Way and Achill Atlantic drive?

I never realised Clontarf was on the Atlantic...

odyssey06

buffalo wrote: »

I never realised Clontarf was on the Atlantic...

Well, technically, the Irish Sea is an arm of the Atlantic Ocean but that's me being clever after the fact... Ah, I was trying to make a more general point that the concept of a scenic drive is established in Ireland as a tourism booster ...

cdaly_

odyssey06 wrote: »

Strange, the birds have been doing fine for 50 years without a screen... And couldn't the screen be horizontal?
Does the EIS say anything about the impact of projected sea levels on bird habitats?

There's been a wall along the road edge for as long as I've been passing that way. I presume that has provided the screen thus far.

mrcheez

So I had a quick spin on the newly laid (unopened) section opposite St Anne's Park last night and I'm well impressed with the more-than-ample width given to the bike lane.

You could easily get 4 (5?) flat bar bikes riding side-by-side along the stretch.

Flashy aluminium street lights too ... very classy

I doubt they're going to continue the same bike lane width all the way down to Wooden Bridge though? Also I would be very surprised if they managed to actually complete it all in October as planned (I reckon at least another 2 months).

monument

mrcheez wrote: »

So I had a quick spin on the newly laid (unopened) section opposite St Anne's Park last night and I'm well impressed with the more-than-ample width given to the bike lane.

You could easily get 4 (5?) flat bar bikes riding side-by-side along the stretch.

Flashy aluminium street lights too ... very classy

I doubt they're going to continue the same bike lane width all the way down to Wooden Bridge though? Also I would be very surprised if they managed to actually complete it all in October as planned (I reckon at least another 2 months).

Maybe it's for all of the finishing touches to be done, but they told me February: http://irishcycle.com/2016/09/19/missing-link-on-northside-s2s-dublin-bay-cycle-route-due-to-be-finished-in-february-2017/

Chuchote

mrcheez wrote: »

So I had a quick spin on the newly laid (unopened) section opposite St Anne's Park last night and I'm well impressed with the more-than-ample width given to the bike lane.

You could easily get 4 (5?) flat bar bikes riding side-by-side along the stretch.

Flashy aluminium street lights too ... very classy

I doubt they're going to continue the same bike lane width all the way down to Wooden Bridge though? Also I would be very surprised if they managed to actually complete it all in October as planned (I reckon at least another 2 months).

Photo, please?

mrcheez

monument wrote: »

Maybe it's for all of the finishing touches to be done, but they told me February: http://irishcycle.com/2016/09/19/missing-link-on-northside-s2s-dublin-bay-cycle-route-due-to-be-finished-in-february-2017/

The guys in 360 Cycles plus some local councillor leaflets said it was due to be finished in Oct hence the road closures, but perhaps that is just without the finishing touches. To me it still seems very ambitious to get it done in Oct unless they plan on working 24 hours.

Chuchote wrote: »

Photo, please?

My vid camera battery died before I got a chance Perhaps someone else is heading that way today?

Seanmk1

Here you go

magicbastarder

is that the final road surface? i.e. is it still concrete?

Seanmk1

mrcheez

magicbastarder wrote: »

is that the final road surface? i.e. is it still concrete?

The cycle lane actually looks pretty small from that angle. I'll record it when I cycle on it next (assuming someone has knocked down the barrier again)

It's approx 3-4 average footpaths wide.

The road surface is still being worked on but I think the cycle surface and footpath is finished.

Seanmk1

The final surface will be asphalt. They have it about halfway done.

They've been working late at night all week, but I don't know if it has been 24 hours.