KARE Tour de Foothills 2013

quirkee

Hi guys
we launched the cycle last night in Naas Gaa Club. Sunday 14th April 2013 for your diaries. This year we are adding 18km to the route to offer a climbing challenge up Ballysmutten area. We will continue from Blessington to Kilbride and turn right onto Sally Gap road for approx. 2 miles where we will turn right and head over Ballysmutten Bridge and over hill dropping down to lake side and on around Lacken Hollywood Donard Glen of Imaal Dunlavin as before. An exciting new challenge we thiunk. Also another addition will be the introduction of electronic timing chips for ensuring we know all cyclists have returned and also for a personal challenge to see how long it takes you to complete the distance you have chosen. you will receive a text with your time on it later on the evening of the ride.We look forward to seeing you all on the 14th April. Routes will be up on website very shortly.
Regards

godtabh

any links?

quirkee

www.karetourdefoothills.com for all the information on the event

NeedMoreGears

Looking forward to this. Always a nice start to the sportif season for me.

Roadtoad

Please tell me the descent from Ballysmutten to Lacken has been resurfaced in the last 2 years! It would have been a total mess sending a group over that the last time I did it.

Weather guaranteed as usual?

nilhg

Just wondering about the timing chips, not something I've seen on a sportive before, in fact I'd associate it with more "competitive" events like tri/duathlons and various running events. Are they going to count time stopped at food stops?

Most people riding the TDF will have a bikecomputer/garmin/smartphone with strava app running so will have a decent idea of their own time anyway so I'm just wondering if the cost of the timing infrastructure is reasonable for what is a leisure event or if the money might be better off going to the charity itself?

Taking in Ballysmutten is a good move I think, though it would probably have put me off last year when I was only building up, will the foodstop for the long event still be at the Church in Donard, quite a distance in if it is, it'd be no harm to let folk know if that's the case.

longshank

nilhg wrote: »

Most people riding the TDF will have a bikecomputer/garmin/smartphone with strava app running so will have a decent idea of their own time anyway so I'm just wondering if the cost of the timing infrastructure is reasonable for what is a leisure event or if the money might be better off going to the charity itself?

Think the idea would be to be able to compare your time to everyone else not just your own time. Might not appeal to you but would appeal to alot of people and maybe bring in more entires. This would mean more money for the charity. Cutting back on the extras is not the way to go for any event.

nilhg

longshank wrote: »

Think the idea would be to be able to compare your time to everyone else not just your own time. Might not appeal to you but would appeal to alot of people and maybe bring in more entires. This would mean more money for the charity. Cutting back on the extras is not the way to go for any event.

Is that not called a race?

Most folk who are interested in comparisons will be on Strava or the like.

I'm not saying it's not worth trying but there are risks and costs involved as well

longshank

nilhg wrote: »

Is that not called a race?

Most folk who are interested in comparisons will be on Strava or the like.

I'm not saying it's not worth trying but there are risks and costs involved as well

I don't think having timing chips = a race and I think you overestimate strava's popularity!
I personally would have no interest in timing chips but am all for organisers striving to put on better events. Some people think food is a waste, some think t-shirts are a waste etc etc.

Fender76

Both Naas Cycling Club and Cycling Ireland have dissassociated themselves from this event because of the introduction of timing chips. The event is now more expensive to enter and will be perceived more as a race than a sportive...

LeftBlank

Fender76 wrote: »

Both Naas Cycling Club and Cycling Ireland have dissassociated themselves from this event because of the introduction of timing chips. The event is now more expensive to enter and will be perceived more as a race than a sportive...

Were CI ever involved though? I don't remember having to sign on for a one day CI license for this one.

My own personal opinion is that timing chips have no place in a sportive like this. If I do this (and I probably will) then I will refuse to use the chip.

joxerjohn

On last Sunday's Naas CC ride many people were saing it was a real pity about the falling out between KARE and the Naas Club about the issue of the chips. It now seems that club members will probably not participate in the TDF event because of this issue. When one considers the level of support in previous years provided to KARE by the club members and friends in participating in promoting and organising the event this latest development is in my opinion most unwelcome.

I would like the charity, Naas Cc and CI to clarify their positions regarding safety issues and insurance cover etc for this event as soon as possible.

07Lapierre

LeftBlank wrote: »

Were CI ever involved though? I don't remember having to sign on for a one day CI license for this one.

My own personal opinion is that timing chips have no place in a sportive like this. If I do this (and I probably will) then I will refuse to use the chip.

Have to agree...Its a charity event held on open roads, not closed roads. Don't see the point of timing chips.

Leroy42

Not sure what the problem is. The timing chips are an extra, something for people to look at after the event. Many continental sportives have them and people can see how they compared against others in an overall context.

Yes many people have computers/smartphones etc, but that is an individual time. Those people who like to go fast on these events and stay near the front won't change because of the timing chip, although they may take less time at the stops.

Those who do these events for leisure/charity etc were not going to race and will not race (some because of the limiting factor of fitness, others because they aren't interested in that.)

The marathons are all timed events yet it causes very few people to going running after Sonia or whoever.

It's just a 'nice' (if you happen to like that sort of thing) but harmless gimmick and I don't understand why Naas CC would refuse to partake just because of that.

RobFowl

I'd be put off by the timing chips tbh.
They will make riders push themselves to get a faster time and on non closed roads with traffic operating as usual this will lead to riskier riding. I've seen it at the Tour of Louth esp after the platinum level was introduced. Light were broken, cars ignored and the standard of riding went down big time.
Was planning to do this, not sure at all now and will probably do a race instead.....

07Lapierre

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not sure what the problem is.

Timing chips might discourage your "average charity cycle rider". They won't discourage club riders, but surley the point of charity rides is to get as many people as possible to participate? Also..an extra expense for the organisers which could have gone to the charity instead of the timing chip suppliers ( assuming there was a cost for them )

Chips Lovell

Tend to agree with RobFowl. You get enough eejits treating sportives as races as it is.

Did the Tour of the Foothills before and there was a small contingent treating it like a race. The gas thing was that there was plenty of races on that day for anyone who did want a race.

Leroy42

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Tend to agree with RobFowl. You get enough eejits treating sportives as races as it is.

Did the Tour of the Foothills before and there was a small contingent treating it like a race. The gas thing was that there was plenty of races on that day for anyone who did want a race.

And those guys will continue to treat them as races, whether you have timing chips or not as they are either racing against a time or against the group they are in.

So the problem you guys are saying this will create is already there! I have seen cyclists breaking lights and taking risks on training spins (hell even on a commute). Put two cyclists beside each other and you have a race. That's the very reason d'etre for the existence of Strava!

Will timing chips make more people push harder, probably a small amount. But Wicklow 200 does do a sort of timing based on the cards and I don't see 2000 cyclists josling for position on the last stretch!

Unless the event demands that everyone stays together the whole time you are always going to get those at the front that want to 'race' it, and those behind that want to complete it.

RobFowl

Leroy42 wrote: »

And those guys will continue to treat them as races, whether you have timing chips or not as they are either racing against a time or against the group they are in.

So the problem you guys are saying this will create is already there! I have seen cyclists breaking lights and taking risks on training spins (hell even on a commute). Put two cyclists beside each other and you have a race. That's the very reason d'etre for the existence of Strava!

Will timing chips make more people push harder, probably a small amount. But Wicklow 200 does do a sort of timing based on the cards and I don't see 2000 cyclists josling for position on the last stretch!

Unless the event demands that everyone stays together the whole time you are always going to get those at the front that want to 'race' it, and those behind that want to complete it.

You will always get some buck eejets but that doesn't mean you should encourage them !!

Chips Lovell

Leroy42 wrote: »

And those guys will continue to treat them as races, whether you have timing chips or not as they are either racing against a time or against the group they are in.

And I think the addition of timing chips will encourage more people to adopt this attitude.

joxerjohn

Apparently the charity had already committed to the cost of renting the chip system and so are now sticking to their position despite protests along the lines outlined above.

There are also concerns that way points (to ensure there is no cheating on the route ) may even encourage intermediate sprints to take place !

This is causing a lot of unnecessary confusion for what is supposed to be a charity event.

07Lapierre

joxerjohn wrote: »

Apparently the charity had already committed to the cost of renting the chip system and so are now sticking to their position despite protests along the lines outlined above.

There are also concerns that way points (to ensure there is no cheating on the route ) may even encourage intermediate sprints to take place !

This is causing a lot of unnecessary confusion for what is supposed to be a charity event.

Cheating???? Its a charity event, not a race! If someone pays the registration fee and only cycles 10k, so what?

Tourman

The introduction of timing chips gives tacit support to the idea that it is a race which is not conducive to charity events.
I look for events that are more fun and friendly and avoid race type events cant see myself returning this year.

bcmf

RobFowl wrote: »

I'd be put off by the timing chips tbh.
They will make riders push themselves to get a faster time and on non closed roads with traffic operating as usual this will lead to riskier riding. I've seen it at the Tour of Louth esp after the platinum level was introduced. Light were broken, cars ignored and the standard of riding went down big time.
Was planning to do this, not sure at all now and will probably do a race instead.....

+1
and +1 on the fact that there are enough dopes treating sportives as a race while not have the sense/kahuna's to go actual racing.
Pity about this as this was up there as one of the best sportives going plus the addition of some more hills (boo hiss ) making this a great sportive.

funkyjebus

Perhaps the timing chip is so that less people will stop at a food stops for tea, that way the two kettles they had last year might be sufficient for the numbers.

Eamon, are you aware of these issues last year, have they been addressed? I queued for 15 minutes and got half way up the line before leaving while one women franticly tried to make tea for hundreds using a couple of kettles, it was a joke and left me angry tbh (I was cold).

So before money got spent in areas that it would appear most people don't care about or actually have a problem with , was iti spent in the more critically areas that the majority of people rely on?


FWIW I don't care about the timing chips, I have a garmin and won't be treating this as a race, but it annoys me that I have to pay for it.



I've done it every year, but this year I'm on the fence.

velo.2010

Disappointing to hear Naas are no longer involved. I did a few sportives last year and I think 3 of them were supported by Naas CC. I can only surmise that KARE want to give a Tour 'feel' to ordinary cyclits with the timing chips. There is no harm in wanting to push yourself on a sportive and having an official time for the event. I understand though that folk be might tempted to take too many chances.

Regarding the route and Ballysmuttan - they gone and changed the surface on the Sally Gap side to the rough gravelly type. So now its sh!t both sides!

iregk

Leroy42 wrote: »

The timing chips are an extra, something for people to look at after the event. Many continental sportives have them and people can see how they compared against others in an overall context.

Many continental sportives particularly in Italy use them on law enforcement advice and insurance claims and for no other reason. One I did in Italy that was rolling closed road you had to stay within a certain time/speed in order to avail of the closed road. Fall out of that time and you fall out of the closed road sportive. That doesn't mean you're out of the sportive, of course you still complete it but if you have an accident where you go through a light lets say, get hit by a car and your insurance defense is it was a closed road event the organizers can say no, you were outside of the closed road as per your timing chip. Results were never posted.

The W200 timing card is different, I've clocked, gone and gotten my self and bike together and started probably 20mins later. So not accurate.

I've done the TDF and a lot of riding with Naas and the introduction of the timing chips this year has closed the event off for me. Sad but I will not be partaking in it. It will lead to more risks been taken early on by riders trying to set a good time. Encouraging the racing element of a sportive is not what should happen.

Now for those in Naas Blessington area a little annoyed at this and no longer partaking I draw your attention to the day before. The 13th of April Blessington GAA club cycle 4 dsi. €10 entry where would you get it.

http://www.facebook.com/events/132995056868804/?fref=tck

alexanderomahon

Don't race and won't be near the front. I like the idea of the chip.

Eamonnator

If Naas C.C and C.I. are not supporting this event, what is the position regarding insurance? Will C.I. licence provide insurance? Are the organisers
arranging their own insurance for the event?

funkyjebus

iregk wrote: »

Now for those in Naas Blessington area a little annoyed at this and no longer partaking I draw your attention to the day before. The 13th of April Blessington GAA club cycle 4 dsi. €10 entry where would you get it.

http://www.facebook.com/events/132995056868804/?fref=tck

This looks like a very nice route and only €10. Think that just decided it for me. Anyone else. Might be time for a new seperate thread.

iregk

Tis a nice route indeed. The club are pretty much all doing it and as it's the first year it's running a good bit of support is needed.

joxerjohn

As I understand it this event may now also no longer be a CI endorsed event. Under your CI leisure licence insurance you are specifically covered for CI endorsed events and training for CI events such as on club spins etc. The CI cover is not a 24/7 cycling cover and for example you are not covered for such things as if you are injured or you injure someone when cycling down to the shops (according to the FAQ on the CI website). Hence the reason why many sportifs are run in conjunction with CI affiliated clubs I suppose.

So if this is now no longer a CI endorsed event then the insurance cover question is a valid one on which clarification is needed.

funkyjebus

joxerjohn wrote: »

As I understand it this event may now also no longer be a CI endorsed event. Under your CI leisure licence insurance you are specifically covered for CI endorsed events and training for CI events such as on club spins etc. The CI cover is not a 24/7 cycling cover and for example you are not covered for such things as if you are injured or you injure someone when cycling down to the shops (according to the FAQ on the CI website). Hence the reason why many sportifs are run in conjunction with CI affiliated clubs I suppose.

So if this is now no longer a CI endorsed event then the insurance cover question is a valid one on which clarification is needed.

Your CI insurance would cover you taking part in this as long as you call it training. It would cover you going to the shops if you consider it training.

funkyjebus

Eamonnator wrote: »

If Naas C.C and C.I. are not supporting this event, what is the position regarding insurance? Will C.I. licence provide insurance? Are the organisers
arranging their own insurance for the event?

Your cycling Ireland Licence will still have effect once this is 'training'. Yes they would have to have their own insurance or else they never would have gotten approval from Kildare CC or the gardai.

joxerjohn

This idea of calling your cycle trip "training" is mentioned in relation to commuting on CI where is says that if your commuting is part of your training programme then you would be covered under your CI insurance.

If it is as easy as just saying that everything is training then why is the CI Insurance restricted ? And why do CI make a point of saying that it is ?

Eamonnator

I think it mean spirited, to say the least, of iregk to advertise an event, that is
in direct competition with Tour de Foothills, in this thread.
If you want, start a new thread about the other sportive.

iregk

How is it in direct competition? It's on a different day, in a different location. Aside from that they are both for charity so I'd hardly call in competition. I also was not advertising it as you say I simply notified those that said they had no intention to do the TDF that there was an alternative.

If me trying promote and push a charity event can possibly be taken as mean spirited then I weep for the human race.

quirkee

Hi guys
The issue of the timing chip has caused a lot of comment I see. Just to clarify a number of points. We wish to make this the best event we can. We are introducing timing chips to the event in the hope of attracting more cyclists to our event. We want to keep adding experiences to this event for all cyclists and this year we have decided to add timing chips and the text to individuals with their times. On there being a falling out with Naas CC this is not the fact, we as the committee organising the event decided to engage a company to do timing chips for us. Naas CC have not endorsed this themselves and we respect their decision however it is not true to say Cycling Ireland have distanced themselves from the event. We have liaised with Cycling Ireland personnel and they have no difficulty with what we are doing. we are complying with cycling ireland leisure guide and sending our safety statement to them to ratify, engaging appropriate support personnel for the day, ie marshals, order of malta, gardai, outriders, bike mechanics etc.
Regarding the cost there is no change from last years costs. We are investing in our ride in the hope that it attracts more numbers to support us. it is a gamble but one we are hoping pays off resulting in bigger numbers.
Our aim is to run this event to give the cyclists that wish to support us the best experience we can both before the day and on it.
On the question of insurance we see no reason why from talking to cycling ireland that they will not ratify it as it is run to their standards. We send the sign in sheets and appropriate fees to cycling ireland and again this will happen this year. Should Cycling Ireland come back to us and inform us that they will not insure our cycle we have our own insurance that allows us run charity bike rides and it will run under that solely and we will still follow the guides laid out to ensure we have the best event we can possibly organise.
on the issue of feed stations I am well aware of the queue in Donard as I was there working at that food station myself and fully understand the need to change that and we have planned for that this year.
This event will constantly change and evolve over the years hopefully every year for the better but where we have not made it better we will learn and change accordingly.
I hope this clears up some issues and I will continue to update on facebook, website and here to ensure clarity and openness with regard to, what we want to be, the best event in the country the KARE Tour de Foothills.

Eamonnator

iregk wrote: »

How is it in direct competition? It's on a different day, in a different location. Aside from that they are both for charity so I'd hardly call in competition. I also was not advertising it as you say I simply notified those that said they had no intention to do the TDF that there was an alternative.

If me trying promote and push a charity event can possibly be taken as mean spirited then I weep for the human race.

Of course, it's in competition. It's the same weekend, and the venues are only a few miles apart.
Is notifying and advertising, in this context, not pretty much the same.
"I also was not advertising it" and "If me trying promote and push a charity event"
Surely those two quotations contradict each other.

As I said, if you want to advertise another event, start a new thread. Leave this one to K.A.R.E. Tour de Foothills.

LeftBlank

quirkee wrote: »

Our aim is to run this event to give the cyclists that wish to support us the best experience we can both before the day and on it.

I'm afraid that you are misunderstanding the target market for these events. To the average sportive rider (myself included) the following would be more important than timing chips

- Decent foodstops
- Good marshalling
- Availability of mechanic/broomwagon etc..

From my couple of times doing this event, the food stops have always been a problem. If anything, you should take whatever money is being spent on the timing chips and try and use it to improve the food stops (or indeed have more of them). That's what will keep people coming back. As others have said, those that are interested in timing will already have their own equipment for this and all the timing chips will do is encourage risky riding (of which I have seen plenty in the previous years).

I would appreciate an answer to the question: can I still do this if I refuse to use a timing chip?

boege

My experience of timing chips is that you do tend to get a bit more excited in the beginning but your legs and lungs tend to put you back in your place fairly quickly. So yeah, the starts may be a little more hectic but then in my experience so are most spotives.

I think Naas Club probably want a more open family friendly event and timing chips tends to put it in the other direction. I think they are two equally valid views, just different styles of events and diversity should be welcomed.

I wonder if the organisers are after the growing tri community?

Leroy42

So an event organiser is trying out something new to try to attract increased numbers! If people don't like it then I'm sure they won't bother with it again so why not let them give it a try?

Plenty of events do this type of thing, it's a gimmick for sure, much like giving a medal or a t-shirt. But they seem to think it worth a try to try to get people to do their event rather than others out there.

Hey I know, why don't we do all cycling on closed circuits, no downhills of course cos that only increasing speed.

Well done quirkee, I think its a good idea (not the timing itself in my opinion but the fact you guys are thinking of something new). I hope you get loads more numbers and thus more money for charity. Feck the begrudgers

Leroy42

LeftBlank wrote: »

I would appreciate an answer to the question: can I still do this if I refuse to use a timing chip?

quirkee already said that the costs are being kept the same as last year so why would it bother you if you were given a timing chip. Just don't bother with it.

Inquitus

The Maracycle had timing chips when I did it in 2011 and noone seemed to give a shíte on here, or on the day, it was just a novelty thing much like the timestamps on the WW200. Some people will always try and win a "Sportif", some people will try and do it as fast as they can for them. Even when in the "lead" group in a Sportif I have never seen anything dangerous with regard to some folks taking risks to gain an "edge". The Tour of Louth is the more likely to cause people to do dumb stuff due to the time limit for platinum imo.

sheepfield

I cycle competitively: however I have attended this sportive each year since it started. Regarding timing chips, I think they are a gimmicky waste of money but hey! everybody is free to enter if they want and I'm sure KARE has done some kind of cost-benefit analysis on them, since this is a charity event. And issues of insurance are surely red-herring as KARE must have the proper insurance to run the event in the first place.

I am more concerned with some issues I noticed last year and made casual reference to afterwards:

a) TT Bars - what do KARE think of them being used in this event? In my view they are lethal in these mass start events and downright out of place, not just in this event. You cant use them racing so why in a leisure cycle?

b) Earphones - a guy in shades and earphones last year made numerous attempts to take me and others out of it and despite people trying to remonstrate with him he peddled away furiously in total oblivion. He was a strong cyclist and very fit, just not the most considerate road user.

c) lads, have you seen the road to Donard? The Hollywood Glen, to borrow a colloquial phrase "is in pure sh1te" and has been for years. Its a tractor lane at best. Last time I went there was the TDF last year and found it in rag order. I have driven it and still think its pretty poor. The N81 runs parallel....

I train regularly on the roads in the final 30km and you have a series of sharp downhill and in some cases off-camber bends to contend with. Good bike handlers should do fine and lots of care as fatigue sets in is advised.

Now: throw in an unlucky day with weather, agricultural detritus, lads with TT bars and headphones, plus a timing chip ticking away....

This event has always clashed with the Stamullen GP race. I will be in Stamullen this year. I have supported KARE numerous times before. Just not this time. Sorry.

quirkee

On the question of refusing the timing chip, of course you can still do the event without the timing chip. That is not an issue.

quirkee

I'm afraid that you are misunderstanding the target market for these events. To the average sportive rider (myself included) the following would be more important than timing chips

- Decent foodstops
- Good marshalling
- Availability of mechanic/broomwagon etc.

We have decent foodstops and we continue to try and get them right every year, this year being no exception. We have always had marshalling in targetted areas and always look to increase the amount of marshals we have on the day. We have motorbike outriders too to help with marshalling.
And we have mechanics available pre-event and also on the route during the event.
We also have broomwagons on all routes every year.
Timing chips are in addition to all of these that are in place. We are adding them in this year in the hope of attracting more cyclists.
following the cycle we will again evaluate everything associated with the cycle, look for feedback on all areas and plan for next year based on the feedback we get, again all in the interest of putting on the best event we can. We appreciate all the support we get and we try to ensure everyone has an enjoyable experience that leaves them wanting to come back.

MediaMan

I've ridden the TDF a couple of times and really enjoyed it. I know from talking to others that some people have treated it as a race right from the starting line. I don't see any value in having the timing chips but I respect the intent of the organisers to try to add to the event.

It may push a few more people to race around the course, and that may create more problems at the front, but I don't think that will make much difference overall. For those nutcases who like to race sportives, its about being first over the line more than the actual time. For the rest of us, we can cycle as normal.

I think the introduction of timing chips is is being talked up into something much bigger than it actually is.

Lambretta

Justchecking if anyone knows if this is available yet?


Thanks for any info

midlands1

quirkee wrote: »

Hi guys
we launched the cycle last night in Naas Gaa Club. Sunday 14th April 2013 for your diaries. This year we are adding 18km to the route to offer a climbing challenge up Ballysmutten area. We will continue from Blessington to Kilbride and turn right onto Sally Gap road for approx. 2 miles where we will turn right and head over Ballysmutten Bridge and over hill dropping down to lake side and on around Lacken Hollywood Donard Glen of Imaal Dunlavin as before. An exciting new challenge we thiunk. Also another addition will be the introduction of electronic timing chips for ensuring we know all cyclists have returned and also for a personal challenge to see how long it takes you to complete the distance you have chosen. you will receive a text with your time on it later on the evening of the ride.We look forward to seeing you all on the 14th April. Routes will be up on website very shortly.
Regards

Will they stop/start automatically at the food stops.

Craig06

I don't really see what the deal is with the timing chips. All charity runs normally have them and they entice more people to enter. I like the idea of timing to see what sort of times people do on these and then next time out you try to beat your own time. A sportive is a personal challenge and I think most people regard them as this and not a race.