Ashes 2013 - see mod warning in post 689

booth70

I thought Indian Test cricket was in a mess but judging by the current Ind v Aus test series Australia's is in an even bigger mess

Whilst the conditions in England will be different and you would expect that the Aussies will raise their game higher for the Ashes I think they will be no match for England both home and away with this bunch of players

Nobody wants to see a one sided test series.....we have had enough of that in the last two years but as a neutral the last thing I want to see is a one-sided Ashes series

Safe to say we won't see Hughes in a test again......Clarke is the best batsman in the side by a mile and has to bat at 4.....Watson has to go back to opening bcos that's where he scored all his runs

Don't be surprised if Ricky Ponting gets a call up for the Ashes!

crackit

Australia are going to get run over in the Ashes. Pure and simple

They are now reaping the rewards for a broken selection policy harking back to the days of Hilditch. Favouritism rather than ability has dogged their selection for a long time and now they are left with a giant mess. Lots of inexperienced, but not necessarily young, cricketers who aren't up to scratch instead of some hardened and experienced players at Test level.

Maxwell, Henriques, Quiney, Wade, Cowan, Lyon and Doherty are simply not up to standard. The two spinners especially are a total joke. Absolute garbage the pair of them.

Khawaja, Paine, Hauritz, North and more were not persisted with when they should have been. Dropped and forgotten about for 'poor performance' and never heard from again. Then you have other players who are persisted with no matter how badly they played.

You reap what you sow and what Australia are going to reap in the summer is going to hurt them badly. Don't rule out a whitewash, weather permitting.

Score of 10

Pattinson and Siddle in English conditions could do well but a lot depends on Watson's ability to bowl and form with the bat, Warner's form at the top and in my view Clarke should be batting at 4 with Watson at 3 and the openers as is, Australia can put it up to England on their day but I cant see them having too many days during the next 10 months

Gordon Gecko

Some horrendous batting from England as we speak is making me think the Ashes is going to be a more even competition that some are suggesting.......

kryogen

Its the bowling that the Aussies will have the most trouble with, who are you really confident of going out there and taking the wickets needed to win Test matches?

The batting obviously needs to be much better but the bowling department is so weak, and I have to agree with a previous poster who said they are reaping what they sowed

Cardinal Richelieu

Phil Hughes, filled his boots with runs at county level last year, hopeless at Test. He could turn into another Damian Martyn if he is given a long break to sort out his technique but the pool of No.3s appears small. They had the same problem in the Ashes series Down Under and Australia haven't sorted it.

Test Match Performances of Australian No.3's since Ashes Tour of 2011
Sri Lanka v Australia
1st Ponting 44, 4
2nd Marsh 141, DNB
3rd Marsh 81, 18

South Africa v Australia
1st Marsh 44, Ponting 0( Marsh batted 10th, 0)
2nd Khawaja 12, 65

Australia v New Zealand
1st Khawaja 38, 0 NO
2nd Khawaja 7, 23

Australia v India
1st Marsh 0, 3
2nd Marsh 0, DNB
3rd Marsh 11, DNB
4th Marsh 3,0

West Indies v Australia
1st Watson 39, 52
2nd Watson 56, 0
3rd Watson 41, 5

Australia v South Africa
1st Quiney 9, DNB
2nd Quiney 0, 0
3rd Watson 10, 25

Australia v Sri Lanka
1st Hughes 86, 16
2nd Hughes 10, DNB
3rd Hughes 87, 34

India v Australia
1st Hughes 6, Warner 23(Hughes batted 4th, 0)
2nd Hughes 19, 0

booth70

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Some horrendous batting from England as we speak is making me think the Ashes is going to be a more even competition that some are suggesting.......

England were horrible yesterday all right but I wouldnn't read too much into that ...yet!.....England are notoriously slow starters as evidenced by the thrashing they got in the 1st test in India recently....they still went on to win the series convincingly

decies

I fear for the Aussies thankfully first test in New Zealand is giving me much needed comic relief .

booth70

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Phil Hughes, filled his boots with runs at county level last year, hopeless at Test. He could turn into another Damian Martyn if he is given a long break to sort out his technique but the pool of No.3s appears small. They had the same problem in the Ashes series Down Under and Australia haven't sorted it.

Test Match Performances of Australian No.3's since Ashes Tour of 2011
Sri Lanka v Australia
1st Ponting 44, 4
2nd Marsh 141, DNB
3rd Marsh 81, 18

South Africa v Australia
1st Marsh 44, Ponting 0( Marsh batted 10th, 0)
2nd Khawaja 12, 65

Australia v New Zealand
1st Khawaja 38, 0 NO
2nd Khawaja 7, 23

Australia v India
1st Marsh 0, 3
2nd Marsh 0, DNB
3rd Marsh 11, DNB
4th Marsh 3,0

West Indies v Australia
1st Watson 39, 52
2nd Watson 56, 0
3rd Watson 41, 5

Australia v South Africa
1st Quiney 9, DNB
2nd Quiney 0, 0
3rd Watson 10, 25

Australia v Sri Lanka
1st Hughes 86, 16
2nd Hughes 10, DNB
3rd Hughes 87, 34

India v Australia
1st Hughes 6, Warner 23(Hughes batted 4th, 0)
2nd Hughes 19, 0

In reality Australia have 4 openers in the top 4 slots....Warner,Cowan,Hughes and Watson!

Watto and Warner should open I reckon with Cowan at 3 and Clarke at 4 for the next test in India

Khawaja at 5 perhaps and Wade at 6?.....

Their batting order really looks awfully thin when you look at the above top 6!

Are there any other players knocking on the door?

decies

Warner Cowan and Hughes will be slaughtered in English conditions . Hughes will probably be dropped before the ashes . The squad is in turmoil!!

Cardinal Richelieu

decies wrote: »

Warner Cowan and Hughes will be slaughtered in English conditions . Hughes will probably be dropped before the ashes . The squad is in turmoil!!

I know its not test level but Cowan did play against England Lions in those conditions last year. He made 99, 9 in the 1st Test and 73 in the 2nd Test which made him the highest Australia scorer in the series.

Cardinal Richelieu

booth70 wrote: »

In reality Australia have 4 openers in the top 4 slots....Warner,Cowan,Hughes and Watson!

If they open with Watson or have him at number 3 can the Aussies expect him to contribute to bowling side except for a couple of overs here and there?

booth70 wrote: »

Watto and Warner should open I reckon with Cowan at 3 and Clarke at 4 for the next test in India

Khawaja at 5 perhaps and Wade at 6?.....

Their batting order really looks awfully thin when you look at the above top 6!

Are there any other players knocking on the door?

It does look pretty thin when you compare it to the Golden Period of Batting talent that they produced in the 1990s. In a weird way that batting talent probably stalled the development of talent below them so now you have to either skip a generation and go for inexperienced talent or are forced to rely on late developers or journey men with flaws. Micky Arthur excuse was that only Clarke and Watson have any experiencing of batting in a Test Match in India.

booth70 wrote: »

Are there any other players knocking on the door?

They played Klinger in the A Tests in England at 3 last year and opened with Liam Davis. Does anyone know more about Burns? Can he play 3?

crackit

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Phil Hughes, filled his boots with runs at county level last year, hopeless at Test. He could turn into another Damian Martyn if he is given a long break to sort out his technique but the pool of No.3s appears small. They had the same problem in the Ashes series Down Under and Australia haven't sorted it.

Test Match Performances of Australian No.3's since Ashes Tour of 2011
Sri Lanka v Australia
1st Ponting 44, 4
2nd Marsh 141, DNB
3rd Marsh 81, 18

South Africa v Australia
1st Marsh 44, Ponting 0( Marsh batted 10th, 0)
2nd Khawaja 12, 65

Australia v New Zealand
1st Khawaja 38, 0 NO
2nd Khawaja 7, 23

Australia v India
1st Marsh 0, 3
2nd Marsh 0, DNB
3rd Marsh 11, DNB
4th Marsh 3,0

West Indies v Australia
1st Watson 39, 52
2nd Watson 56, 0
3rd Watson 41, 5

Australia v South Africa
1st Quiney 9, DNB
2nd Quiney 0, 0
3rd Watson 10, 25

Australia v Sri Lanka
1st Hughes 86, 16
2nd Hughes 10, DNB
3rd Hughes 87, 34

India v Australia
1st Hughes 6, Warner 23(Hughes batted 4th, 0)
2nd Hughes 19, 0

This highlights my point nicely. The sample sizes are insufficient is some cases where players were dropped. Khawaja played 6 Tests before getting the boot. Shaun Marsh played 7. Phil Hughes is the only one with any number of tests and even he only has 22 to his name.

Have a few bad innings and they get shot of you. It was the same with North who only had 21 matches. What they've been basically asking people to do, if they aren't one of the golden boys who can do whatever they like, is walk into Test cricket and score 50's and 100's on a regular basis without dipping in form. If your form slides, that it, you're out the door.

Let's take one person as an example. What did Tim Paine ever do to get dropped? Less than I realised. I just popped onto cricinfo and looked up his stats.

Average 35.87 in 4 Tests. 2 against Pakistan, 2 against India.

7, 47, 17, 33, 92, 9, 59, 23

He was then dropped, just turned 25, and never seen again in the Test team. Why? Granted his figures aren't exactly Bradmanesque but they are nice and solid and certainly warranted another look. If he'd stayed in and around the setup he'd have 30 Tests to his name now and all the experience and toughness mentally.

Instead you have Wade, who has similar figures, but again is in the position of not having the experience under the belt.

There is no rhyme or reason to selection sometimes!

Rjd2

Paine got injured did he not? Khawja has been given opportunities and has not taken them, very overrated player.

They had players like Voges and hussey all players with loads of experience in county and state cricket but no interest in given them opportunities. Their is of course Chris Rogers and Stephen O Keefe who have also been overlooked.

Its astonishing that none of the above seem to have ever figured in the selectors minds in the last few years.

But they probably don't have enough x factor like Maxwell or Stephen Smith.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

crackit

Paine had a knock for a while but he was playing ODI's until 2011 so he wasn't sidelined for an extended period. It's not like he had a crippling injury that you just couldn't put him in the frame for Test's.

Khawaja had 6 matches. That's not enough to be written off. Sorry I just can't agree with that thinking. It takes a while to bed into Test cricket. Another aspect of the lack of faith in the chopping and changing is the effect it must have on players confidence.

I agree completely with the likes of Rogers and O'Keefe. How Rogers hasn't had a look in I don't know. Cosgrove has loads of first class runs and experience but I'm guessing the fact he's a bit of a wide load has kept him out. Even Nevill had more of a claim to a crack at the gloves than Wade.

Steve Smith! Don't start me on that one. He was never in a million years a Test cricketer.

Mongarra

I think both teams raise their game for The Little Urn so I would not read too much into current form. It will be the second "half" of Summer before battle begins and that's nearly 4 months away.

England bowling, apart from Anderson, is hit and miss at present and the selectors still cannot decide if Swann or Panesar will be their main spinner. If current form for either side is to be carried into the series it will be either a whitewash for the other side or a series with little excitement between two mediocre panels.

Hunterbiker

It wasn't all that long ago that repeated defeat of England led some in Aus and elsewhere tk question the primacy given to The Ashes.
These things go in cycles and currently it appears to be England's turn (thankfully) to have the edge on paper. One thing The Ashes has shown us is that the unexpected can happen. I think it will be an exciting series even with a below par Australia.

Dozen Wicked Words

Mongarra wrote: »

I think teams raise their game for The Little Urn so I would not read too much into current form. It will be the second "half" of Summer before battle begins and that's nearly 4 months away.

England bowling, apart from Anderson, is hit and miss at present and the selectors still cannot decide if Swann or Panesar will be their main spinner. If current form for either side is to be carried into the series it will be either a whitewash for the other side or a series with little excitement between two mediocre panels.

Swann is clearly number one for selectors when fit. I don't necessarily agree with it, but can't think of any example where selectors have picked Monty over Swann in competitive game. 2 mediocre teams are just as liable to be involved in fantastic games of cricket, probably more positive results too.

I think both series will be close, and unless the Aussies are getting battered at home, there will be full stadiums for every game. A rarity in Test cricket these days.

Rjd2

crackit wrote: »

Paine had a knock for a while but he was playing ODI's until 2011 so he wasn't sidelined for an extended period. It's not like he had a crippling injury that you just couldn't put him in the frame for Test's.

Khawaja had 6 matches. That's not enough to be written off. Sorry I just can't agree with that thinking. It takes a while to bed into Test cricket. Another aspect of the lack of faith in the chopping and changing is the effect it must have on players confidence.

I agree completely with the likes of Rogers and O'Keefe. How Rogers hasn't had a look in I don't know. Cosgrove has loads of first class runs and experience but I'm guessing the fact he's a bit of a wide load has kept him out. Even Nevill had more of a claim to a crack at the gloves than Wade.

Steve Smith! Don't start me on that one. He was never in a million years a Test cricketer.

I seen nothing in Khawaja to get excited about in those games, some starts but that's it. The lad is clueless against spin and useless at rotating strike as well.

I can't see how anyone expects a side with a top 4 of Warner,Cowen, hughes and Watson to beat England over 5 tests. Its not happening folks.

booth70

It's hard to believe that Australia will actually be able to put a team together for the Ashes let alone manage to compete with England.......

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-australia-2013/content/current/story/624494.html

Rjd2

booth70 wrote: »

It's hard to believe that Australia will actually be able to put a team together for the Ashes let alone manage to compete with England.......

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-australia-2013/content/current/story/624494.html

They won't, they will be slaughtered.

kryogen

Bold move?

booth70

kryogen wrote: »

Bold move?

Bold move if it was done with the best interests of Australian cricket at heart......to me it looks like somebody in the Australian management has a few personal agendas

Maybe I am wrong but there is more to this than meets the eye!

Dropping James Pattinson is beyond ridiculous......he is the only one in India who looks threatening enough to take a few wickets!

Rjd2

doing the rounds for a few days now, still funny.

kryogen

Maybe the team manager doesnt feel like he has control/authority over the team (certain senior elements anyway) and he is making a play to get everyone to fall in line, maybe the management team think the group need a boot in the ass and a wake up call with how they have been performing as a group? Who knows, one thing is for sure, Watson is an absolute must for Australia if they are to have any hope v England, they need him fit and firing, Mitch is another one who needs to step up and be a leader to the bowling attack.

I'll be interested to see how this plays out over the next few weeks/months.

Hoping for a positive outcome of course

booth70

Australian bowlers getting pummeled in Mohali........India in control at 224/0 in only 44 overs despite conceding 408

India's dominance in this series only confirms how good England were in India earlier this winter

Dozen Wicked Words

Finn is off the boil in NZ though, and Monty not really getting the job done, but there's plenty of time.

booth70

Another thumping for the Aussies in Mohali......

Australia lose the first three Tests of a series for the first time since 1988-89, against the West Indies......Can see it happening more in the coming year;)

booth70

Australia are not going to win the Ashes with Steve Smith at no: 5 despite his 92 in Mohali

Hughes with his 69 probably gets one more chance in Delhi to salvage his test career

Watto should come back into the side though.....Aus need to get their middle order right...and fast

Moist Bread

I don't see it as been as cut and dry. Australia comfortably beat India a little over a year ago in Australia, they were only just edged out by SA the #1 ranked test side in the world a couple of months ago and arguably out played them for most of the series.

In India the pitches are doctored to suit spinners. Australia do not play spin well barring Clarke. Most Indian batsman play spin well. Australia don't have particularly good spinners. India have plenty of decent spinners. All of this is a recipe for disaster coupled with the internal issues of discipline. These results should shock no one.

The ashes will be played in conditions that will be much more familiar to the Aussie batsmen and will suit their blowing attack. The issue of spin is not as big a problem if the selectors just cop on and play Lyon for the entire series with no chopping and changing. SA have done very well with mediocre spinners, so it's not the end of the world. Australias strength is their seamers and right now they have an abundance of talent in that department. Yeah the middle order looks fragile since Hussy retired, but if they pick proper batsman and not some terrible batting allrounder like Maxwell or Smith they will go ok.

Rjd2

Moist Bread wrote: »

The ashes will be played in conditions that will be much more familiar to the Aussie batsmen and will suit their blowing attack. The issue of spin is not as big a problem if the selectors just cop on and play Lyon for the entire series with no chopping and changing. SA have done very well with mediocre spinners, so it's not the end of the world. Australias strength is their seamers and right now they have an abundance of talent in that department. Yeah the middle order looks fragile since Hussy retired, but if they pick proper batsman and not some terrible batting allrounder like Maxwell or Smith they will go ok.

Their batting bar Clarke is very mediocre, how many Australian batsman would get into the England team right now? Clarke obviously and you could make an argument for Warner but that's it, nobody else would have a chance.

Australia may have more depth but they break down a lot and in Anderson they have the best bowler apart from Steyn and Philander in test Cricket.

Moist Bread

Rjd2 wrote: »

Their batting bar Clarke is very mediocre, how many Australian batsman would get into the England team right now? Clarke obviously and you could make an argument for Warner but that's it, nobody else would have a chance.

Australia may have more depth but they break down a lot and in Anderson they have the best bowler apart from Steyn and Philander in test Cricket.

I would have Warner open instead of Compton, but yeah, otherwise I agree completely.

England are a better team than Australia, but the gulf is not as wide as some people make out. The Aussie quicks are capable of taking 20 wickets at home and in England, so they will always be in with a chance. How Swann recovers from his operation will be important too. Also they need to replace Wade with Haddin or Paine. He's a liability and probably cost Lyon his place to begin with.

kryogen

Would Watson not have a shout at making the England team like?

Moist Bread

kryogen wrote: »

Would Watson not have a shout at making the England team like?

Aw No

Edit: if he was bowling too then he might make it. Otherwise no way, he averages in the mid 30's and get's out after starts and under pressure. England Have Bell for that niche.

SD7792

Completely agree that the gap between Aussies and England is being blown out of proportion. Not too long ago that England were torn apart by spin in the sub continent and no matter how weak the Aussie batting order is, not sure that they would be bowled out for 167 by the NZ bowling attack.

Admittedly, two England Ashes victories seems likely but any talks of 10-0 is just sheer arrogance and hopefully the Aussies can give them a good rattle.

kryogen

Ponting won POTY, recall?????

Dozen Wicked Words

Well England's attack didn't look anything to write home about against the Kiwis on day one of the final test. What on earth Cook was doing putting them into bat on that track I don't know.

Looking forward to some good, close, Ashes tests, that England will hopefully edge, but wouldn't bet on it.

djimi

From what I saw of last nights play the conditions were not exactly helping the bowlers. Awful decision to put NZ in to bat, but did I hear McCullum say he would have done the same (put England in) had he won the toss?

Dozen Wicked Words

djimi wrote: »

From what I saw of last nights play the conditions were not exactly helping the bowlers. Awful decision to put NZ in to bat, but did I hear McCullum say he would have done the same (put England in) had he won the toss?

What did they see in the pitch to both suggest they would both bowl first I wonder.

Moist Bread

You can really see why Swann is England's #1 choice spinner. Monty is toiling away with the same stuff over after over, it said a lot when the coms were praising him for trying to set his own fields. Swann does this a lot more often and it never gets mentioned because it's a given when your plan A doesn't work you try something else. Not saying he would have ran through NZ on this pitch but the difference is he is always trying to out-think the batsman where as Monty just toils the same line, length and speed and hopes for a mistake.

Gordon Gecko

Moist Bread wrote: »

You can really see why Swann is England's #1 choice spinner. Monty is toiling away with the same stuff over after over, it said a lot when the coms were praising him for trying to set his own fields. Swann does this a lot more often and it never gets mentioned because it's a given when your plan A doesn't work you try something else. Not saying he would have ran through NZ on this pitch but the difference is he is always trying to out-think the batsman where as Monty just toils the same line, length and speed and hopes for a mistake.

To be brutally honest I the fact that Monty is the 2nd choice test spinner indicates just how hard up England are in that department.

kryogen

The pitches have played in a way that would lead the captains to think bowling first would give them the best chance at taking 20 wickets and winning the match, the pitches have been doing something early and not so much late.

Unfortunate for England really.

Moist Bread

kryogen wrote: »

The pitches have played in a way that would lead the captains to think bowling first would give them the best chance at taking 20 wickets and winning the match, the pitches have been doing something early and not so much late.

Unfortunate for England really.

Maybe. NZ are in a far better position at this stage though. Martin is choking the run rate (something Monty couldn't do) and from there they might force more mistakes tomorrow. A lot has been said (and rightly so) about how dire Australia have been in India, but a failure to beat NZ can only be seen as a massive failure by England. Again, my point being that the Ashes are far from a foregone conclusion.

Hopefully Bell will show some grit and bat time tomorrow.

booth70

Australia finally show some spirit in India.....even though it is about 3 test matches too late!.....5-for for Nathan Lyon.....4th test nicely poised after two days

booth70

India 4 Australia 0......and the revenge is complete

Australia have been out-batted , out-bowled , out-fielded and out-sledged even;)

Fair to say Australia have been utterly hopeless all series with muddled and strange selections......just like India were in Australia last year!......Goes to show how hollow home series wins are

With England struggling in NZ as well it looks like we might still have a competitive Ashes after all

TrueDub

Folks, a gentle reminder: we try to have discussions about specific series in separate threads. In this one we have talk of the Ashes, the Eng v NZ series and the Aus v Ind series. I understand the relevance of some of the posts, and I'm not going to split the thread off, especially as the other series are all but complete, but I would ask that we all remember the separate threads approach from now on. Anyone can start a thread.

Rascasse

booth70 wrote: »

With England struggling in NZ as well it looks like we might still have a competitive Ashes after all

Possibly, but let us not forget that England beat India 2-1 (also a 4 match series) only a few months ago. That is probably a better indicator to Ashes form than England in NZ.

I find it interesting that Australia (as far as I can see) have no more fixtures until the Champions Trophy in June and no tests until the first Ashes test in July. Meanwhile England have two tests against NZ in May. I'm not sure that's the best preparation for the Aussie's considering all that's been going on recently.

booth70

My Australian X1 for the first test of the Ashes

1. Warner
2. Watson
3. Cowan
4. Clarke
5. Khawaja
6. Henriques
7. Haddin
8. Johnson
9. Siddle
10. Pattinson
11. Lyon

booth70

Rascasse wrote: »

I find it interesting that Australia (as far as I can see) have no more fixtures until the Champions Trophy in June and no tests until the first Ashes test in July. Meanwhile England have two tests against NZ in May. I'm not sure that's the best preparation for the Aussie's considering all that's been going on recently.

Not to worry.....Most of their players will get plenty of practice in the IPL starting shortly!!;)

But agree.....dreadful build-up for the Aussies ahead of the Ashes.....haven't seen their schedule yet but hopefully they'll have atleast 3 first class matches against the counties lined up before the first test

Moist Bread

booth70 wrote: »

My Australian X1 for the first test of the Ashes

1. Warner
2. Watson
3. Cowan
4. Clarke
5. Khawaja
6. Henriques
7. Haddin
8. Johnson
9. Siddle
10. Pattinson
11. Lyon

Watson opening is something I'm not sold on and after Clarke it looks a little brittle. Haddin as WK is a good shout, I'd go with Paine, but as long as Wade is kept away from the gloves it's a good call. If Bird/Harris are fit I'd have them instead of Johnson, as it is, I'd go with Starc. With their rotation policy and inevitable injuries I'm sure all the quicks will get some game time anyway.

My XI

1. Warner
2. Cowan
3. Hughes
4. Watson
5. Clarke
6. David Hussey (Seriously)
7. Paine †
8. Starc
9. Siddle
10. Patto
11. Lyon

booth70

Moist Bread wrote: »

Watson opening is something I'm not sold on and after Clarke it looks a little brittle. Haddin as WK is a good shout, I'd go with Paine, but as long as Wade is kept away from the gloves it's a good call. If Bird/Harris are fit I'd have them instead of Johnson, as it is, I'd go with Starc. With their rotation policy and inevitable injuries I'm sure all the quicks will get some game time anyway.

My XI

1. Warner
2. Cowan
3. Hughes
4. Watson
5. Clarke
6. David Hussey (Seriously)
7. Paine †
8. Starc
9. Siddle
10. Patto
11. Lyon

Watson's best innings for Australia have been as an opener and given his poor fitness levels I can't see him bowling much..... so opening might be the best position to get the best out of him

Hughes has had enough chances to prove himself and though he did get a 60 odd in India I can't see him in the starting XI unless someone is out injured

Hussey is a good player.....but at 36 will be a step backward for Australia

I'd pick Haddin ahead of Paine bcos of his experience and as a backup for the brittle middle order