If there was a general election in the morning who would you vote for

Twoandahalfmen

1. Fine Gael
2. Labour
3. Fianna Fáil
4. Sinn Féin
5. People Before Profit
6. Socialist Part
7. Workers and Unemployed Action Group
8. Or an Independent


Personally i would vote Sinn Fein

Mods Please add a poll

Cookie_Monster

Nobody, unless the Green candidate was decent.

Boulevardier

Dissident Labour.

manofcavan

Sinn Féin

Fr Tod Umptious

FG

They have deliveerd the follwing that FF told us were not negotiable

1, Reduced bailout interest rate
2. Promisary note restructuring
3. Extension of bailout loan terms

As a result our bond yelid is in the 3%-4% range comared to being the the 14%-15% whne they took over

They have also reduced the number of TDs from the next election onwards, and promised a Senade refferendum in autumn.
Not to mention changing the law on judges pay.

Zaph

If FG were serious about reducing the number of TDs they would have cut 30-40. Reducing the number by 6 is to merely give the illusion that they wanted to tackle the issue.

ArmaniJeanss

Zaph wrote: »

If FG were serious about reducing the number of TDs they would have cut 30-40. Reducing the number by 6 is to merely give the illusion that they wanted to tackle the issue.

In fairness they couldn't cut by more than that amount of 6 - It needs a referendum to reduce it below the 1 per 30000 people figure.
So at most they could be criticised for failing to propose such a referendum.

****
Though I'd reckon such a referendum might fail anyway. People like the idea that there are too many TDs in other parts of the country, but then its explained to them that reducing the numbers may actually mean that their county or locality might no longer have representation, or that the TDs most likely to lose out are those from the smaller parties/indos who sneak in in 4th place on transfers. Then suddenly it doesn't seem as attractive an idea.

Chips Lovell

The small parties would oppose any referendum to reduce the amount of TDs further. They'd be the ones who'd get hit by it.

Peanut2011

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

FG

They have deliveerd the follwing that FF told us were not negotiable

1, Reduced bailout interest rate
2. Promisary note restructuring
3. Extension of bailout loan terms

As a result our bond yelid is in the 3%-4% range comared to being the the 14%-15% whne they took over

They have also reduced the number of TDs from the next election onwards, and promised a Senade refferendum in autumn.
Not to mention changing the law on judges pay.

They have also burdened each and every citizen with the debt of Irish Anglo Bank, so I guess yes, fair play to them!

Fr Tod Umptious

Peanut2011 wrote: »

They have also burdened each and every citizen with the debt of Irish Anglo Bank, so I guess yes, fair play to them!

Was that not FF who did that or are you one of these who just think we can wish away our commitments to agreements, like SF

Peanut2011

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Was that not FF who did that or are you one of these who just think we can wish away our commitments to agreements, like SF

No we can't wish our commitments away, however private business's debt being lumped on the national debt is not helping the country.

So next time before answering like Eamonn Gilmore maybe you can have a look in to the subject.

danbrosnan

Who else is left but sein fein... time to give them a chance!

Walt Jabsco

You forgot the new political party Direct Democracy Ireland, led by Ben Gilroy.
If like me you're tired of the old Cronyism and "Keep it in the family" way of politics, why not try a new better fairer way of politics.
They are now running in the by-election in the Meath-East constituency.
I wish them the best of luck and hopefully a new dawn for Ireland.
http://directdemocracyireland.ie/author/ben/

Corkbah

any independent who wanted me to vote them in ....simply because I believe in sharing the wealth !!

(let some randommer earn some political money instead of the usual political families ...its not like anything is going to change - but at least some local independent can earn a bit of cash and support his family, the political families have had their turn and no matter what party ...they have ruined this country)

uberalles

FiannaLabour for sure

666irishguy

Fine Gael would get my vote. Like a previous poster said they have done what Fine Fail could not, which is at least try and get us some sort of a manageable deal and not swallow the lie that this is the way it must be. Anybody who wants to whinge about our children being saddled with debt should remember that Fine Fail created that situation when the greatest f**k wits this country has produced in a long time (Lenihan and Cowen) walked into a room with bankers and emerged some hours later with an agreement to give security to the speculation, prospecting and gambling of private investors. I'd also vote for any party that would guarantee that Cowen and Ahern would be forced to have their eyes gouged out.

Peanut2011

666irishguy wrote: »

Fine Fail created that situation when the greatest f**k wits this country has produced in a long time (Lenihan and Cowen) walked into a room with bankers and emerged some hours later with an agreement to give security to the speculation,

Just the same way it will be seen the midnight legislation to liquidate Anglo, but wait not liquidate it or liquidate it......

Bit confused as when something is liquidated there is nothing left, yet we going to liquidate it but have Anglo's debt left.....

Corkbah

666Irishguy....do you not think they could be a bit more tactful with the spending of public funds ?

creating taxation (ie household tax, water tax, leaving Ireland tax, VAT increases etc etc)

political spending/wasting (travel to various countries ie paddy's day - plenty of other countries attend these events via video link - or do we simply not have good enough broadband to try this ??, political wines, etc)

I have an issue with the ministers saying we must all take cuts in our pay - yet they seem to continue spending money and do not appear to make sacrifices on a par to the people !! (most people in this country are struggling - 1 in 8 according to yesterdays news reports are late on payments on their mortgage thats a very high amount)

and while I'm at it .... do you also believe FG has done anything to stop the new *social class ? or the huge recidivist rate in this country ? Crime is at an all-time high and nothing is being done to stop it.....or even attempt to curb it.

How many unemployed labourers are on the dole ? how many qualified building tradesmen ? ....why not offer them a job building a new prison - so the judges cannot say the reason behind the suspended sentences is because there are no prison places....none of the new prisons need to be fancy - simple buildings - no mod cons required - make prisoners not want to go back to prison.

A motion was tabled last year at a committee meeting about crime - the proposal was to make the criminals pay, remove free legal aid and have those accused of crimes pay for every appearance before the courts.....the motion was refused on the basis that it would be too difficult to admin....yet they can create a button to send letters out to every household saying you owe us extra taxes because we want you to pay for everything.

* = the new social class is the class of people who believe they are entitled to everything from the government, a house, payment for trying to find work, payment for sitting the leaving cert, payment for doing a FAS course, payment for having multiple kids when its clear they cannot afford to support them, free legal aid from the state, free advice from the state on any matter.

you may not have noticed it but there is a social class of people who have not worked a day in their lives nor do they intend to, some of them commit crimes and re-offend and expect that the government(taxpayer) will pay the bill for their legal representation and if they are jailed we pay the bill for that too, as well as giving them money for not being able to work while incarcerated and supporting their families because they cannot provide for them while they are locked up, there are generations of families going through the courts who have not and do not intend to work/contribute to the state....and why should they !! ... they have everything handed to them on a platter.

my solution would be to reduce child benefit for each child - if you have more kids you must ensure you can afford to take care of them...people need to take responsibility for their actions - stop giving benefits to repeat criminals (at least reduce their benefits - if they are not willing to obide by the state rules/laws ... why should the state support them (i.e. pay them to break the law))

Hijpo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The small parties would oppose any referendum to reduce the amount of TDs further. They'd be the ones who'd get hit by it.

DDI would give the power to call referenda back to the people, the odius debt, the number of TD'S and even whether cowan and bertie get to recieve there full pension to name a few, would all be voted on by the people. The citizens the government is financially raping these days would actually have a say instead of being expected yo open up there bank accounts, none of these legislative rush jobs would be accepted. Its like some medieval **** over of the peasants by a fat power hungry king.

Fr Tod Umptious

Peanut2011 wrote: »

No we can't wish our commitments away, however private business's debt being lumped on the national debt is not helping the country.

So next time before answering like Eamonn Gilmore maybe you can have a look in to the subject.

What is there to look into ?

The bank debt was lumped on with National debt and we with our European partners agreed that that was the way it would be.

We cannot no unilaterally renege on that agreement.
The EU has discussed a change to the above but the detail has yet to be ironed out.

And in the mean time FG have delivered what I said above

Peanut2011

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

What is there to look into ?

The bank debt was lumped on with National debt and we with our European partners agreed that that was the way it would be.

We cannot no unilaterally renege on that agreement.
The EU has discussed a change to the above but the detail has yet to be ironed out.

And in the mean time FG have delivered what I said above

The problem is that WE did not agree to that. FG and Lab were voted in for the exact opposite reason. To use Enda's words while in opposition, they did not have a mandate to do that!! However as long as we have parish politics and "as long as I am ok" thinking we will have these and the likes of these crooks in the government!

The typical answer from FG / Lab of FF gave us this mess / SF killed so many people does not fly! I can only hope come to next election Lab is gone like the greens and FG gets a hammering!

oscarBravo

Hijpo wrote: »

DDI would give the power to call referenda back to the people, the odius debt... [would be] voted on by the people.

So let's say the people vote against being in debt. What happens next?

Fr Tod Umptious

Peanut2011 wrote: »

The problem is that WE did not agree to that. FG and Lab were voted in for the exact opposite reason. To use Enda's words while in opposition, they did not have a mandate to do that!! However as long as we have parish politics and "as long as I am ok" thinking we will have these and the likes of these crooks in the government!

The typical answer from FG / Lab of FF gave us this mess / SF killed so many people does not fly! I can only hope come to next election Lab is gone like the greens and FG gets a hammering!

Show me where FG said in the election campaign or the programme for govt that it would NOT continue with the programmes that were already in place ?

It's on thing for FG to say that FF did not have a mandate for what they did, but that does not mean that FG could just tear up the agreements when they got elected.

As I said already FG have so far delivered on three things that FF said were impossible

1. Reduced interest rate (via EU agreement)
2. Extention of lenght of term to promissory note making them much more manageable
3. Extension of length of term of bailout loans making them much more manageable

Chips Lovell

oscarBravo wrote: »

So let's say the people vote against being in debt. What happens next?

The debt would magically disappear and international lenders would continue to borrow to us as normal, of course.

666irishguy

Corkbah wrote: »

666Irishguy....do you not think they could be a bit more tactful with the spending of public funds ?

creating taxation (ie household tax, water tax, leaving Ireland tax, VAT increases etc etc)

political spending/wasting (travel to various countries ie paddy's day - plenty of other countries attend these events via video link - or do we simply not have good enough broadband to try this ??, political wines, etc)

I have an issue with the ministers saying we must all take cuts in our pay - yet they seem to continue spending money and do not appear to make sacrifices on a par to the people !! (most people in this country are struggling - 1 in 8 according to yesterdays news reports are late on payments on their mortgage thats a very high amount)

and while I'm at it .... do you also believe FG has done anything to stop the new *social class ? or the huge recidivist rate in this country ? Crime is at an all-time high and nothing is being done to stop it.....or even attempt to curb it.

How many unemployed labourers are on the dole ? how many qualified building tradesmen ? ....why not offer them a job building a new prison - so the judges cannot say the reason behind the suspended sentences is because there are no prison places....none of the new prisons need to be fancy - simple buildings - no mod cons required - make prisoners not want to go back to prison.

A motion was tabled last year at a committee meeting about crime - the proposal was to make the criminals pay, remove free legal aid and have those accused of crimes pay for every appearance before the courts.....the motion was refused on the basis that it would be too difficult to admin....yet they can create a button to send letters out to every household saying you owe us extra taxes because we want you to pay for everything.

* = the new social class is the class of people who believe they are entitled to everything from the government, a house, payment for trying to find work, payment for sitting the leaving cert, payment for doing a FAS course, payment for having multiple kids when its clear they cannot afford to support them, free legal aid from the state, free advice from the state on any matter.

you may not have noticed it but there is a social class of people who have not worked a day in their lives nor do they intend to, some of them commit crimes and re-offend and expect that the government(taxpayer) will pay the bill for their legal representation and if they are jailed we pay the bill for that too, as well as giving them money for not being able to work while incarcerated and supporting their families because they cannot provide for them while they are locked up, there are generations of families going through the courts who have not and do not intend to work/contribute to the state....and why should they !! ... they have everything handed to them on a platter.

my solution would be to reduce child benefit for each child - if you have more kids you must ensure you can afford to take care of them...people need to take responsibility for their actions - stop giving benefits to repeat criminals (at least reduce their benefits - if they are not willing to obide by the state rules/laws ... why should the state support them (i.e. pay them to break the law))

I don't see why you are raising the issues of unemployment, child benefit and crime with me with regards to my opinion on voting for Fine Gael. Sign of the times. The money went to the Paddy Power's of the economic world. You wont see a change in those figures until the state can get some breathing space and things start to solidify economically. With regards to this entitlement demanding social class, you seem to be shooting yourself in the foot there. You talk about a sense of entitlement, yet seem to be aghast that we will have to pay taxes that are pretty common across the developed world and generate revenue for the provision of services. This "social class" as you describe it, that drain benefits and do not work has existed forever. I am more than aware of their existence and have been since I was old enough to question why they do not have jobs. The remedy to them is fairly simple and along the lines of what you said, but alas the PC brigade would be out hankies in hand crying about the fact these people are disadvantaged and have no shiny facilities to shred in their area. People seem to be only realizing that such a class exists now, or more to the point realize the drain they are once they have had to compete with them for scarce benefits. Before that though, there was no real outcry as long as money was coming in and we all got what we wanted. I can't argue that government pay is high and there are wastage's with regards to foreign trips etc and that needs to be curtailed, but Fine Fail are the ones who had the boom money, they were happy to dish out the gravy, blew billions on E-voting and dead end projects and programs and people never raised any issues with it. Why didn't they build new prisons and put in place better social welfare programs? Where was this great wave of primarily newly struggling middle-class outrage at wastage we have now? You seem to be caught up in the measures needed to remedy this mess being so unpalatable and they are. But don't forget who landed us in this mess which is a mess within the bigger mess of a global recession. When you go to vote ask yourself where are Cowen and Ahern now? Ahern was writing little soccer stories and popping out of cupboards on TV last we heard of him, with his pension that he decided to give some little bit back and still having a ball of a time. Cowen, the man who told us we had to secure all those economic gamblers is laying low but still enjoying himself with the bit of golf when he feels like it. Lenihan can't be made accountable for his role, but he should be regarded as complicit as the rest of them and has gotten off lightly in the public mind due to his death which was a tragedy for his family and friends and for the record I am not trying to make light of that fact. The rest of us? Slumming it out day to day. I'd like their heads on spikes.

Hijpo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The debt would magically disappear and international lenders would continue to borrow to us as normal, of course.

oscarBravo wrote: »

So let's say the people vote against being in debt. What happens next?

The irish people are not stupid, the two of ye come across the exact same way as the ginger quiff Fionnan Sheahan when he was on Vinny Brown being told about direct democracy in the first place.

We dont just have a referendum on "not bothering to pay back the debt" it would be having a referendum to suspend the payments pending legal review of this odious debt. Failing that, the financial waste that is not being curtailed by the government (unless you class mobility grants for disabled people being a waste???) and all the other needless finances they still benefit from (in times of austerity might i add) would go to the debt fund. I await the claims of "you could cut the pay all you want and it wont make a dent in the national debt" thats no reason why the effort should not be made in the current climate.

Anyway, why shouldnt the people have more say on issues that effect them, instead of being thrown a referendum here and there?
Even when we are given a say if they dont like it your made vote again :rolleyes:

Amirani

Independent or perhaps Green. My constituency choice would be:

1. Shane Ross
2. Eamon Ryan

Chips Lovell

So sovereign default while a legal review is held? That will end well.

You'd swear that nobody was allowed take a legal challenge against the state's borrowing policies at the moment.

Corkbah

666irishguy wrote: »

I don't see why you are raising the issues of unemployment, child benefit and crime with me with regards to my opinion on voting for Fine Gael. Sign of the times. The money went to the Paddy Power's of the economic world. You wont see a change in those figures until the state can get some breathing space and things start to solidify economically. With regards to this entitlement demanding social class, you seem to be shooting yourself in the foot there. You talk about a sense of entitlement, yet seem to be aghast that we will have to pay taxes that are pretty common across the developed world and generate revenue for the provision of services. This "social class" as you describe it, that drain benefits and do not work has existed forever. I am more than aware of their existence and have been since I was old enough to question why they do not have jobs. The remedy to them is fairly simple and along the lines of what you said, but alas the PC brigade would be out hankies in hand crying about the fact these people are disadvantaged and have no shiny facilities to shred in their area. People seem to be only realizing that such a class exists now, or more to the point realize the drain they are once they have had to compete with them for scarce benefits. Before that though, there was no real outcry as long as money was coming in and we all got what we wanted. I can't argue that government pay is high and there are wastage's with regards to foreign trips etc and that needs to be curtailed, but Fine Fail are the ones who had the boom money, they were happy to dish out the gravy, blew billions on E-voting and dead end projects and programs and people never raised any issues with it. Why didn't they build new prisons and put in place better social welfare programs? Where was this great wave of primarily newly struggling middle-class outrage at wastage we have now? You seem to be caught up in the measures needed to remedy this mess being so unpalatable and they are. But don't forget who landed us in this mess which is a mess within the bigger mess of a global recession. When you go to vote ask yourself where are Cowen and Ahern now? Ahern was writing little soccer stories and popping out of cupboards on TV last we heard of him, with his pension that he decided to give some little bit back and still having a ball of a time. Cowen, the man who told us we had to secure all those economic gamblers is laying low but still enjoying himself with the bit of golf when he feels like it. Lenihan can't be made accountable for his role, but he should be regarded as complicit as the rest of them and has gotten off lightly in the public mind due to his death which was a tragedy for his family and friends and for the record I am not trying to make light of that fact. The rest of us? Slumming it out day to day. I'd like their heads on spikes.

please use paragraphs ! (its very difficult to read and see where your points are)

my response was in reply to you saying you would vote FG

Fine Gael would get my vote. Like a previous poster said they have done what Fine Fail could not, which is at least try and get us some sort of a manageable deal and not swallow the lie that this is the way it must be

and my reason for my reply was simply to highlight some of the things promised and not done by FG - I understand they are trying to clean up a mess created by years of bribery, planning bungs and general nepotism...but that doesn't permit them to continue along the same pathway (ie. wasting public funds), didn't Enda Kenny himself say in the early 90's that it was morally unjust to tax a persons home - yet he is not stopping a minister from bringing in such a tax.

In respect to you claiming I don't want taxation - I have to disagree, a country cannot fund itself without taxation (Just to point out this part is not about the various political parties but about taxation itself) - but taxation must be realistic and fair, do you think that the "leaving Ireland tax" is/was an idea created by pub-politics or was it a stroke of genius by some political sidekick ?

similarly with the plastic bag levy ? .... if my memory is correct that money was supposed to go towards road maintenance and various road projects ....but after a few years we get told all tax goes into a slush fund for general usage.

The government or its advisors seem to get ideas similar to what you would hear in a pub after several pints .... look at Eamonn Coughlan at the recent debate/seminar on how to tackle cyber bullying - he suggested that in order for a person to post anything online they should register their passport and IP address ....sounds sensible but is completely impractical as it doesn't allow for people picking up free wi-fi or those that work from laptops and travel throughout the country ..... or another suggestion that was made ... that people pay per post online....you have to wonder where they come up with the ideas.

the vast majority of politicians do not see what is happening amongst the ordinary people of Ireland - many of them are interested in doing things for their own parish (ie. any of the Healy-Rae's) rather than doing what is right for the country as a whole.

Personally I believe there needs to be a huge political cull ...anyone who has been involved in political life any anyone related to them should be banned so the country can start with fresh eyes - I do believe that we should have defaulted circa 2008 and believe that we should still default, look at Iceland .... they defaulted ... couple of months of hardship, a few years of economic downturn and ...they are back !

I cant understand why changes have not been made to deter criminals and why criminals receive suspended sentences when they have multiple previous convictions, I do not understand why those with money can receive six month sentences for serious offences - yet those without money get several years for similar attacks.... all these things happen because of the current governments inability to want change and inability to effect change....they say they want stricter sentences yet ALL judges are political appointees so choose someone with a strict outlook on punishing crime.

Fr Tod Umptious

Corkbah wrote: »

and my reason for my reply was simply to highlight some of the things promised and not done by FG - I understand they are trying to clean up a mess created by years of bribery, planning bungs and general nepotism...but that doesn't permit them to continue along the same pathway (ie. wasting public funds), didn't Enda Kenny himself say in the early 90's that it was morally unjust to tax a persons home - yet he is not stopping a minister from bringing in such a tax.

The 90s were a while ago, I'm sure there are lots of things said by politicians years ago that they have now gone back on when they realise what has to be done.

The property tax is essential to close the gap between what the country earns and what it is spending. I don't like it either but I am not sure what the alternatives are

Corkbah wrote: »

In respect to you claiming I don't want taxation - I have to disagree, a country cannot fund itself without taxation (Just to point out this part is not about the various political parties but about taxation itself) - but taxation must be realistic and fair, do you think that the "leaving Ireland tax" is/was an idea created by pub-politics or was it a stroke of genius by some political sidekick ?

What tax is this "leaving Ireland tax" you are on about ?

Corkbah wrote: »

similarly with the plastic bag levy ? .... if my memory is correct that money was supposed to go towards road maintenance and various road projects ....but after a few years we get told all tax goes into a slush fund for general usage.

Plastic bag tax went to environmental funds, not roads.
And I'd image it's that a real revenue generator these days as the numbers of plastic bags bought are very low

Corkbah wrote: »

The government or its advisors seem to get ideas similar to what you would hear in a pub after several pints .... look at Eamonn Coughlan at the recent debate/seminar on how to tackle cyber bullying - he suggested that in order for a person to post anything online they should register their passport and IP address ....sounds sensible but is completely impractical as it doesn't allow for people picking up free wi-fi or those that work from laptops and travel throughout the country ..... or another suggestion that was made ... that people pay per post online....you have to wonder where they come up with the ideas..

I hate it too how people who have no ideas about technology talk about things like that

Corkbah wrote: »

the vast majority of politicians do not see what is happening amongst the ordinary people of Ireland - many of them are interested in doing things for their own parish (ie. any of the Healy-Rae's) rather than doing what is right for the country as a whole.

Yea the system as it is means that national politicians end up doing local jobs, that is a problem but I would disagree that the vast majority of politicians do not see what is happening amongst the ordinary people of Ireland

Corkbah wrote: »

Personally I believe there needs to be a huge political cull ...anyone who has been involved in political life any anyone related to them should be banned so the country can start with fresh eyes

Stupidest idea I ever read on boards.ie

Sounds like something out of Kemer Rouge Cambodia or Stalinist Russia.

Corkbah wrote: »

- I do believe that we should have defaulted circa 2008 and believe that we should still default, look at Iceland .... they defaulted ... couple of months of hardship, a few years of economic downturn and ...they are back !

We are not Iceland
We are part of an economic union, we cannot just unilaterally default and expect everything to be Ok in a few months

Not everyone is convinced that what Iceland did was a good move by the way (discussed on other threads)

Manach

Given that Revenue have now the power to enter under court warrant homes to in respect of the home tax, I can safely say I'll not be voting for FG/Lab and their failure to cut the welfare state that has brought the country to this state.

Corkbah

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The 90s were a while ago, I'm sure there are lots of things said by politicians years ago that they have now gone back on when they realise what has to be done.

But some of the very same politicians and/or their children are in government or working as politicians these days....wasn't Noel o Flynn (Cork) asked NOT to run in the 2011 elections because Michael Martin thought it was bad for the party....and lets not get into his son's recent antics !! (you really think politicians have changed or simply learned how not to get caught)

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The property tax is essential to close the gap between what the country earns and what it is spending. I don't like it either but I am not sure what the alternatives are

There are plenty of alternatives: how many millions do you want to save: our politicians dont see the many flaws in todays society and only see the figures instead of the people, for example: frontline gardai should be increased, foreign trips should be abolished, do we need an army ? remove the wastage in the HSE, FAS (or is it now called Solas), Abolish the Seanad, remove the huge ministerial perks, forget about supporting for the families of former tisaoigh (plural of Taoiseach - probably spelled wrong), sector by sector create documented processes of carious departments, remove wastage workers - there are thousands of qualified unemployed people who simply cant get a job because they are not related to anyone in the Civil Service.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

What tax is this "leaving Ireland tax" you are on about ?

the ridiculous departure tax which was I think €10 per person when exiting the country (not sure if its still in existence but its one of the measures brought in a few years ago which smelled of pub politics)

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Plastic bag tax went to environmental funds, not roads.
And I'd image it's that a real revenue generator these days as the numbers of plastic bags bought are very low

Apologies for getting the fund wrong - but either way after a few years they said it just goes into a fund and is not actually used for any specific purpose, I do agree that in this day and age they only make a couple of hundred thousand sales every week ...so its not worth a whole lot on the grand scale of things but its still a stupid tax.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I hate it too how people who have no ideas about technology talk about things like that

Glad we agree on some things :)

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yea the system as it is means that national politicians end up doing local jobs, that is a problem but I would disagree that the vast majority of politicians do not see what is happening amongst the ordinary people of Ireland

woo hoo ... we agree again

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Stupidest idea I ever read on boards.ie

Sounds like something out of Kemer Rouge Cambodia or Stalinist Russia.

is it really worse than the "departure tax" ? have a look at political life in this country - sons, daughters, nephews, nieces of people who have been involved in systematically destroying this countries economic policies - I refer you back to Mr O'Flynn mentioned above and his son's recent antics !! ... look at the many politicians who took up seats following a family death ...look at the many politicians who have courted controversy (Ivor Callelly for example) ... how many families have been involved in political life simply because they are not qualified to do anything else....have a look at the young lady McEntee who wants to run and take her fathers Seat in Meath (East) ... does she know anything about politics ? (I dont know), is she qualified ? I dont know, she's 26 and has worked for her dad - no previous employment so she knows nothing of life outside the cushy number that politicians have.

Ask yourself this - how many times has a politician said something stupid ? would they have said that if they were properly trained in their field (ie. Minister for finance should have some grasp of economics as well as a qualification and work experience in that industry.)

Also, we gave away our fishing waters to the EU - something which we could have developed and made into a licenced business, we could have developed our fishing waters and created a sound enterprise, not to mention the various oil finds off the coast.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

We are not Iceland
We are part of an economic union, we cannot just unilaterally default and expect everything to be Ok in a few months

Not everyone is convinced that what Iceland did was a good move by the way (discussed on other threads)

An Economic experiment - not en economic union - if it was a union would the burden not be shared instead of flogging the dead horse, I do believe that the bank guarantee was a mistake and as a result of mis-information or selective information given to the minister at the time a decision was made - which could have been avoided - similar to the winding up of Anglo a few weeks ago .... why do it so fast ? if I was a conspiracy theorist I would suggest that the people involved in creating the debt were also influencing the collapse of Anglo, follow the money ... where has it all gone ?

oscarBravo

Hijpo wrote: »

The irish people are not stupid...

Indirect democracy thus far has failed to convince me of that; I have no reason to believe that direct democracy will work any better. As it is, referendum campaigns in this country are soul-destroying.

When we elect better governments; when we take those referendums we do hold seriously - then I'll re-think my views on direct democracy.

We dont just have a referendum on "not bothering to pay back the debt" it would be having a referendum to suspend the payments pending legal review of this odious debt.

So rather than just have a legal review, you pass the legislation required to hold a referendum, gear up the Referendum Commission to produce an information leaflet, print ballot papers, pay polling and count staff, and then - assuming the motion is carried - unilaterally default on our sovereign debt until such time as the legal review is carried out.

Yeah, sounds like an awesome way to run a country.

Anyway, why shouldnt the people have more say on issues that effect them, instead of being thrown a referendum here and there?

Because the people don't have full access to the information required to make informed decisions, and - based on the referendums we've been "thrown" in the past - the people aren't interested in putting the effort into acquiring and evaluating that information.

Even when we are given a say if they dont like it your made vote again :rolleyes:

Hm. So you're in favour of more referendums, as long as the same issue is never voted on twice?

Hijpo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So sovereign default while a legal review is held? That will end well.

You'd swear that nobody was allowed take a legal challenge against the state's borrowing policies at the moment.

Maybe they can, but how long will it take to conclude if we are still paying the money? it certainly wont be wrapped up in the same time it took them to pass legislation to suit themselves and the banks.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Indirect democracy thus far has failed to convince me of that; I have no reason to believe that direct democracy will work any better. As it is, referendum campaigns in this country are soul-destroying.
When we elect better governments; when we take those referendums we do hold seriously - then I'll re-think my views on direct democracy.

If people have a vote that they see is worth while and brings change then they will vote. This is why people do not vote in the government selected referendums. The issues that effect the majority the most are not passed onto the majority to ballot there opinions.

So rather than just have a legal review, you pass the legislation required to hold a referendum, gear up the Referendum Commission to produce an information leaflet, print ballot papers, pay polling and count staff, and then - assuming the motion is carried - unilaterally default on our sovereign debt until such time as the legal review is carried out.
Yeah, sounds like an awesome way to run a country.

There is no point holding a legal review while you shell out a fortune, it is inevitable that will drag on for years and years and that defeats the purpose. Whats wrong with it? i dont think anyone is in denial about our gap between our national income and expenditure but private banking debt conjured into sovereign debt increasing it by a few billion is a problem and shows how disregarded the public is by the government.

Because the people don't have full access to the information required to make informed decisions, and - based on the referendums we've been "thrown" in the past - the people aren't interested in putting the effort into acquiring and evaluating that information.

The government are well able to provide the information they want the people to see and pay for the material with tax payers money, which is against the constitution right?. Why not make the information accessible? plenty of people with internet access where there is a never ending stream of information. Look at all the social media available to people. The only problem i see with making these informed decisions is the fact the public need to be informed and i dont believe the government are in favour of that.

Hm. So you're in favour of more referendums, as long as the same issue is never voted on twice?

No, i would have no issue with voting on something twice. However, under the circumstances of a government pushing a yes vote with a big yes campaign and the proposals are rejected, then the people are made vote again, thats when i would have a problem. What if something was introduced where by you cannot vote on the same issue twice within two years?

oscarBravo

Hijpo wrote: »

If people have a vote that they see is worth while and brings change then they will vote. This is why people do not vote in the government selected referendums. The issues that effect the majority the most are not passed onto the majority to ballot there opinions.

People don't vote because they are apathetic. The fervently-held view that the electorate will suddenly become enthusiastic enough about issues to make well-informed and carefully-reasoned choices in the event that there are vastly more referendums is little more than magical thinking.

There is no point holding a legal review while you shell out a fortune, it is inevitable that will drag on for years and years and that defeats the purpose. Whats wrong with it?

What's wrong with it is that a majority of people voting for something that superficially seems like a good idea doesn't magically make it one.

If you ask people whether we should stop paying our sovereign debts, a great many - possible a majority - will vote in favour. They won't do so because they have carefully evaluated the possible consequences of doing so and concluded that, on balance, those risks are more than offset by the benefits; they will do so because not repaying debt appeals on a visceral level, particularly if you've managed to convince yourself that it's not your debt in the first place.

i dont think anyone is in denial about our gap between our national income and expenditure but private banking debt conjured into sovereign debt increasing it by a few billion is a problem and shows how disregarded the public is by the government.

And there's the problem neatly encapsulated: you just conflated deficit with debt in the same sentence, and are probably unaware that you did so. What percentage of the electorate will carefully educate themselves as to the distinction - a crucially important one - before voting?

The government are well able to provide the information they want the people to see and pay for the material with tax payers money, which is against the constitution right?. Why not make the information accessible? plenty of people with internet access where there is a never ending stream of information. Look at all the social media available to people. The only problem i see with making these informed decisions is the fact the public need to be informed and i dont believe the government are in favour of that.

The public have to want to be informed. Most of the conversations I've had with people in the run-up to referendums involve the phrase "I don't know much about all this stuff" - which, in this era of ubiquitous and easily-accessible information, is pretty much unforgivable.

There's also the problem of confirmation bias. People have a tendency to reject information that doesn't support the conclusion they've already decided upon. A truly open mind is a very, very scarce commodity.

No, i would have no issue with voting on something twice. However, under the circumstances of a government pushing a yes vote with a big yes campaign and the proposals are rejected, then the people are made vote again, thats when i would have a problem. What if something was introduced where by you cannot vote on the same issue twice within two years?

What if the people have changed their mind within those two years, but have been disenfranchised by your dislike of being asked the same question more than once?

Hijpo

oscarBravo wrote: »

People don't vote because they are apathetic. The fervently-held view that the electorate will suddenly become enthusiastic enough about issues to make well-informed and carefully-reasoned choices in the event that there are vastly more referendums is little more than magical thinking. What's wrong with it is that a majority of people voting for something that superficially seems like a good idea doesn't magically make it one.

If you ask people whether we should stop paying our sovereign debts, a great many - possible a majority - will vote in favour. They won't do so because they have carefully evaluated the possible consequences of doing so and concluded that, on balance, those risks are more than offset by the benefits; they will do so because not repaying debt appeals on a visceral level, particularly if you've managed to convince yourself that it's not your debt in the first place. And there's the problem neatly encapsulated: you just conflated deficit with debt in the same sentence, and are probably unaware that you did so. What percentage of the electorate will carefully educate themselves as to the distinction - a crucially important one - before voting? The public have to want to be informed. Most of the conversations I've had with people in the run-up to referendums involve the phrase "I don't know much about all this stuff" - which, in this era of ubiquitous and easily-accessible information, is pretty much unforgivable.

There's also the problem of confirmation bias. People have a tendency to reject information that doesn't support the conclusion they've already decided upon. A truly open mind is a very, very scarce commodity. What if the people have changed their mind within those two years, but have been disenfranchised by your dislike of being asked the same question more than once?

Your claims of people being disinterested in voting may have carried weight when things were rosey but now that they realise how little voice they have when it comes to opposing immoral and excessive taxes and legislation they want change. Direct Democracy gives them this voice and rightly so. I used deficit because people know and understand the country runs a deficit, what people are unhappy with is the private debt added to national debt. I have not merged deficit with sovereign debt.
Have the government ever provided equal ammounts of information in equal detail on both sides of a referendum?

Changed there mind from what? I never said they should not be asked the question twice, im simply suggesting a way in which that nice treaty farce cant happen again.

None of them.

Why isn't there an option on the ballot paper, for 'None of the above'?

For Forks Sake

Deleted User wrote: »

None of them.

Why isn't there an option on the ballot paper, for 'None of the above'?

Because this is the real world, not a student union election?

For Forks Sake

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Because this is the real world, not a student union election?

So if I'm uninspired by the candidates, I either pick the best of a bad bunch, or don't vote?

I hate not voting, but I certainly won't be voting for someone I have no confidence in. At least if there's an option for 'None of the above' or a similar option, I'm showing my discontent and lack of confidence, as I'm sure, would many others.

efb

Spoil your ballot

eire4

I would go for Sinn Fein and then Labour or the Greens for second preference unless there was a very good indpendant running as well.