Against the Head - RTE

The Guardian

much potential but this show is flat as hell
need a new panel
frankie is an idiot
quinlan cant think for himself
and no idea who the other fella is

shake it up Montrose

jamiedav2011

The Guardian wrote: »

much potential but this show is flat as hell
need a new panel
frankie is an idiot
quinlan cant think for himself
and no idea who the other fella is

shake it up Montrose

Brendan Fanning is 'the other fella'. One of the best going.

Would love to see Joanne Cantwell get McGuirk's job, far more incisive.

thomond2006

Sheahan makes my ears cry.

kevom

The Guardian wrote: »

much potential but this show is flat as hell
need a new panel
frankie is an idiot
quinlan cant think for himself
and no idea who the other fella is

shake it up Montrose

I actually really like Frankie as a person, comes across as likeable even when hes spouting ****e. Hes only awful when he has to do punditry that involves Munster players or coaches to be honest.

Quinlan is a very good pundit in my opinion but hes put in a really uncomfortable position, you can tell that hes trying to avoid some of the questions but like Frankie hes actually quite good at the pundity.

Brendan Fanning is the surprise sensation. Hes the only one on the panel whos not afraid to say whatever is on his mind. Hes also not afraid to completely disagree with the other panelists and cut across them when they are spouting ****. I've been impressed to be honest.

I think the best panel would be:
Horgan
Fanning
Quinlan

Horgan for me is the best pundit of the bunch.

The Guardian

the show has no future, imo, if quinlan is involved
same for sheehan

opinionatedfan

the show is only on during the irish internationals anyway(which is a mistake)

P_1

Cantwell is doing a great job as a host. Not afraid to ask the 'tough' questions and seems to cut off Frankie when he verges into 'strange' territory.

thomond2006

P_1 wrote: »

Cantwell is doing a great job as a host. Not afraid to ask the 'tough' questions and seems to cut off Frankie when he verges into 'strange' territory.

I wasn't a fan of hers before but she really has improved this year.

FrannoFan

Quinlan is awful!he repeated the same line he used last week when defending ROG "he has achieved so much" three times!

"He's the one guy you want in a crisis i know his form is bad.." ehhh, then comes on cross fields it,misses touch...

Defends Kidney no matter what. He is loyal but unfortunately that isn't much good as a pundit.

The Guardian

thomond2006 wrote: »

I wasn't a fan of hers before but she really has improved this year.

could do with a bit of a makeover though

P_1

The Guardian wrote: »

could do with a bit of a makeover though

What does her image have to do with her abilities as a host

kevom

The Guardian wrote: »

could do with a bit of a makeover though

Childish.

mohawk

The Guardian wrote: »

could do with a bit of a makeover though

Have you ever said that about a male sports presenter??

She has been excellent this year.
Apart from when Quinnie is talking about ROG I think he talks much sense. Fanning is great.
IMO Frankie shouldn't be getting paid by RTE at all because he is an agent.
I like Shane Horgan as a pundit too and would like to see more of him.

Podge_irl

Quinlan interrupts people too much and speaks banal platitudes too much too. Frankie is annoying because he's actually quite good when one of his clients isn't involved. Big fan of Cantwell, she would be an immeasurable improvement over McGuirk.

ironingbored

mohawk wrote: »

Have you ever said that about a male sports presenter??

She has been excellent this year.
Apart from when Quinnie is talking about ROG I think he talks much sense. Fanning is great.
IMO Frankie shouldn't be getting paid by RTE at all because he is an agent.
I like Shane Horgan as a pundit too and would like to see more of him.

Looks like Frankie needs every penny he can get his hands on:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/bank-sues-exrugby-star-frankie-sheahans-dad-over-29m-debt-29108022.html

Podge_irl

I don't blame Frankie at all for taking the gig (even without money worries). He's essentially doing his job by promoting his clients on air. RTÉ should never have hired him in the first place though.

P_1

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't blame Frankie at all for taking the gig (even without money worries). He's essentially doing his job by promoting his clients on air. RTÉ should never have hired him in the first place though.

Yeah I'd say any of us would have done the exact same.

Ad space where you get paid to advertise, where do i sign up?

Irlandczyk

To be honest, I've always wanted anyone but McGuirk as host of the games, and thought Darragh Maloney would be a decent replacement, recently though, I think Cantwell would be perfect to replace McGuirk. I reiterate though; anyone but McGuirk.

I think the only interesting member of the panel tonight was (once again) Fanning. The only person able to call it as he sees it, and I also love how he refuses to let Frankie or Quinlan talk over him, he drives his point regardless.
Sheahan, I honest to God, hate seeing as a panellist. Apart from being incredibly biased whenever questioned about one of his buddies or clients, he has a really annoying smug grin on his face all too often that turns me off listening half the time.
Quinlan I think is decent, potentially a very good pundit. He has the tendency to try to avoid questions and be very biased at times though, which doesn't make for good punditry. Still, he does have interesting things to say at times.
Lenihan isn't too bad, in my opinion. Sometimes has interesting things to say, and isn't nearly as biased.
Horgan is by far the best (bar Conor O'Shea) that RTÉ have, and would do well to be featured on ATH more often. Jackman isn't too bad either.

Coburger

mohawk wrote: »

Have you ever said that about a male sports presenter??

She has been excellent this year.
Apart from when Quinnie is talking about ROG I think he talks much sense. Fanning is great.
IMO Frankie shouldn't be getting paid by RTE at all because he is an agent.
I like Shane Horgan as a pundit too and would like to see more of him.

I really like Horgan, he's knowledgeable, but has anyone else noticed that he does tend to go on a bit. He needs to say 20 words when 10 might suffice. Having said that, he is the best of a bad bunch.
Frankie is ok but too biased (even when Wales were playing Italy he only say things for the ITs I thought). Maybe in a few years when they don't know any of the Irish players personally will they be better.

jamiedav2011

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't blame Frankie at all for taking the gig (even without money worries). He's essentially doing his job by promoting his clients on air. RTÉ should never have hired him in the first place though.

I've had this argument many times before, and I'm more than willing to have it again!

It's fine for someone to big up their clients, IF you disclose that they're your clients.

What Frankie does is use his position to big up clients with the pretense to anyone who doesn't know what he does that he actually believes this.

He managed to shoehorn two favourable client mentions into a recent U20 game and it's just disgracefully blatant, shady, questionable, unethical and inappropriate behaviour.

He's a 'pundit' employed by the national broadcaster ffs.

Sinbad_NI

Only BF made this watchable for me. FS and AQ don't float my boat at all.

padraig.od

Horgan is as toothless as Quinalan when it comes to criticising his old mates.

Good pundit when he's talking generally about a match, but shy's away from the rough stuff.

durkadurka

My god quinny was embarrassing tonight. He didn't hake a single coherent point other that ROG was good years ago.

shuffol

durkadurka wrote: »

My god quinny was embarrassing tonight. He didn't hake a single coherent point other that ROG was good years ago.

Totally agree Re Quinlan, struck me as somebody struggling to come to terms with a bereavment when talking about ROG, just made no sense and was going round in circles, almost begrudgingly admitted that Jackson had a good game Friday night whilst praising O'Gara's performance despite Munsters backs stuggling to engineer a line break all night.

Piliger

I just watched my recording of ATH - I felt that Sheahan and Quinlan seem to be stuck, and soaked in, a 'player/dressing room' mentality, unable to see things from any other point of view. They still talk obsessively in player jargon and psychology ... looking at 'positives' ... when what really matters is we LOST. As a supporter I don't accept losing. I don't care a f*** about the positives.

And when they poo poo the criticism from the supporters, I get really irritated. The frustration of the Irish fans is NOT just about losing. What is driving supporters crazy, in my opinion, is that we KNOW we have players who are good enough. We KNOW we have players CAPABLE of beating other teams like England and Scotland.

The reality of team sports is that whenever ANY team is less than the sum of it's parts, then there is something seriously wrong at the heart of the management. The whole point of a management team is that they make the team MORE than the sum of it's parts, otherwise they are a waste of space ! And NO ONE will persuade me that these players are lesser players than the English or French or Scottish. THIS is the core reason we as supporters are pulling our hair out.

The whole greek tragedy Sheahan and Quinlan are playing out, of ROG being dropped, is another example. So what he has been dropped ! They talk like they are still team mates and awe struck admirers, instead of experienced players with an insight to offer.

Re ROG, the fact is he has played consistently poorly for a long time now. His kicking from hand has been ghastly most of the time. His tactical kicking has been almost totally absent, with kick after kick after kick ending up in opposition hands and ireland losing 20-30 metres. His goal kicking has mostly been very good, but his control of games has evaporated. And I'm afraid all that adds up to being just not good enough.

A 'solid' game at the weekend is simply not good enough. And he flunked the final drop goal. There was nothing there to merit a selection - that's the bottom line.

However I still think that this greek tragedy of him reaching the end of his career is also premature ! It is possible he may retire at the end of this season if his desire fades - but in my mind there is NO REASON it has to be the end. It's up to him how much he wants to play for Ireland again, and if he does and he can regain his old form, then I see every possibility he could come back next season for Ireland. But he has to WIN his place back.

Piliger

padraig.od wrote: »

Horgan is as toothless as Quinalan when it comes to criticising his old mates.

Good pundit when he's talking generally about a match, but shy's away from the rough stuff.

Maybe we need to abandon the whole use of recent players as pundits if they show such inability to detach from the player mentality.

Maybe we need to move on to the older generation and bring in some independent personalities who are not afraid of speaking their minds.

padraig.od

Piliger wrote: »

Maybe we need to abandon the whole use of recent players as pundits if they show such inability to detach from the player mentality.

Maybe we need to move on to the older generation and bring in some independent personalities who are not afraid of speaking their minds.

Haha I see where you are going with that....

Honestly I think both Quinlan & Horgan are good pundits, but both shy away from criticising individual memebers of a team. Maybe its the team sport breeding coming out in them? That we win together, we lose together mentality.

vkid

Coburger wrote: »

I really like Horgan, he's knowledgeable, but has anyone else noticed that he does tend to go on a bit. He needs to say 20 words when 10 might suffice.]

Absolutely, have been saying it for a while. He needs to learn when to shut up, or get his point across in a brief statement. He has an awful habit of waffling on and on and becomes hard to listen to. if he sorts that out, he'll be a good pundit, but right now he's hard to listen to when he seems to love the sound of his own voice so much.

The Guardian

Paid by the word?

$$$$$

.ak

Can this be watched again on RTE player?

tazman77

.ak wrote: »

Can this be watched again on RTE player?

Yes it was up last night.

artvandelay48

P_1 wrote: »

Cantwell is doing a great job as a host. Not afraid to ask the 'tough' questions and seems to cut off Frankie when he verges into 'strange' territory.

Agree totally. She's the only rugby journalist asking the tough questions these days.

canine

Agree with most people here regarding Joanne Cantwell, she's by far the best rugby interviewer on Irish tv, Unfortunately Sheehan and Quinlan are too close to players and coaches to offer any subjective analysis and despite playing at top level for years unfortunately don't seem to have much ability to do so anyway.Irish rugby is incestuous with most panellists on rugby shows afraid to say anything truthful in case it would affect their relationships with any potential employer

Winters

I enjoy listening to Brendan Fanning, Eddie O'Sullivan, Gerry Thornley, Shane Horgan and Conor O'Shea whenever they are on be it radio or TV.

Quinlan can be hit and miss sometimes but agree that Frankie is cringe worthy. I also don't rate Bernard Jackman's analysis and find myself disagreeing with him most of the time.

As for presenters, I think Joanne Cantwell is great and Máire Treasa Ní Dhubhghaill has impressed me too. In fact Jerry Flannery on Rugbybeo is very good too.

Sinbad_NI

Thought Keith Wood was good on OTB lasr night. Although EOS seemed to have a brain malfunction when taking about ROG.

I agree that all these guys are to closer to the IRFU and players. An outsider is needed for unbiased critique.

Grimebox

kevom wrote: »

I actually really like Frankie as a person, comes across as likeable even when hes spouting ****e. Hes only awful when he has to do punditry that involves Munster players or coaches to be honest.

Quinlan is a very good pundit in my opinion but hes put in a really uncomfortable position, you can tell that hes trying to avoid some of the questions but like Frankie hes actually quite good at the pundity.

Brendan Fanning is the surprise sensation. Hes the only one on the panel whos not afraid to say whatever is on his mind. Hes also not afraid to completely disagree with the other panelists and cut across them when they are spouting ****. I've been impressed to be honest.

I think the best panel would be:
Horgan
Fanning
Quinlan

Horgan for me is the best pundit of the bunch.

I don't understand how you can say Frankie and Quinlan are good pundits if they cannot criticise a large portion of the players and coaching staff objectively due to their proximity with them. They seem to be holding back so as to not step on anyone's toes. It's infuriating that they are being paid for their opinion not giving the whole picture.

The show in general is good. Nice round-up of the week with highlights. Just the odd blooper from those two bring it down

sydthebeat

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10117524/

prospect

vkid wrote: »

Absolutely, have been saying it for a while. He needs to learn when to shut up, or get his point across in a brief statement. He has an awful habit of waffling on and on and becomes hard to listen to. if he sorts that out, he'll be a good pundit, but right now he's hard to listen to when he seems to love the sound of his own voice so much.

Are you being deliberately ironic?

Larbre34

Its true the quality of panelist on ATH does vary greatly. They should leave the matchday play by play analysis to former players and have shows like ATH comprised of journos and commentators for the more indepth stuff, if only to prevent the reticence apparent when someone has to critique a former colleague or friend.

Thornley, Fanning and maybe Popey would be a nice group.

By the way, that background montage of ROGs Greatest Hits at the top of last nights show was vomit inducing, shouldnt be allowed unless hes offically retired, or no longer alive.

Ash.J.Williams

Quinlan was asked directly about the manager situation last night! He'd make a great politician with the waffle that followed!!

OldRio

Thought Frankie was going to implode last night.
It seems to Frankie that Deccie has been given orders from within.
Dark forces are pulling his strings.
Very amusing.

sydthebeat

just watching this now

why is quinny referring the france game as a game ireland "need to win" and its a "must win" game ?????

surely, beyond the pride aspect, its a nothing game.....

Tim Robbins

artvandelay48 wrote: »

Agree totally. She's the only rugby journalist asking the tough questions these days.

I think it's tabloid television really. Rugby is a very technical sport and RTE coverage dumb it right down in the direction of Soccer to boost figures.

Feel sorry for Deccie. Not a fan of his rugby, never was but he is still a top coach and honourable fella.

I like ATH as it gives Rugby broader coverage than the International and provincial side.

I enjoy some of the insights presented by the panel, but I find them very safe a lot of the time with certain exceptions.

What absolutely does my goat however, and I don't know why - is that neither Sheehan or Quinny can talk for 60 seconds without saying "we talked about this during the week" or "we talked about this earlier".

I am probably the only one, and I can't understand why it annoys me - but jesus every second sentence begins with it.

Grimebox

sydthebeat wrote: »

just watching this now

why is quinny referring the france game as a game ireland "need to win" and its a "must win" game ?????

surely, beyond the pride aspect, its a nothing game.....

It's the attitude the players must take so its instilled in him since then. Every game is deemed a must win game. What are the Autumn internationals then if the France game is meaningless?


The part where Frankie said he was even taught by Declan Kidney for six years in school made me discount almost anything he would have to say about him. Frankie is too compromised to give an objective opinion

artvandelay48

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think it's tabloid television really. Rugby is a very technical sport and RTE coverage dumb it right down in the direction of Soccer to boost figures.

I disagree. When they discussed the outhalf situation before the scotland game she asked point blank if Rog was the form outhalf and followed it up with "but doesn't kidney pick on form?". No other journalist asked those questions. Thornley only seeks to justify decisions, not question them.

P_1

sydthebeat wrote: »

just watching this now

why is quinny referring the france game as a game ireland "need to win" and its a "must win" game ?????

surely, beyond the pride aspect, its a nothing game.....

That's something that has annoyed me with a large part of the rugby community in Ireland. Everything is short term, there doesn't seem to be any kind of long term thinking happening with a lot of people

sydthebeat

Grimebox wrote: »

It's the attitude the players must take so its instilled in him since then. Every game is deemed a must win game. What are the Autumn internationals then if the France game is meaningless?


The part where Frankie said he was even taught by Declan Kidney for six years in school made me discount almost anything he would have to say about him. Frankie is too compromised to give an objective opinion

the difference between the AIs and this game is that there was serious scare of ending up in 9th for the world cup draw... so teh AI's were a lot more important than this game.

In reality this game has about the same importance as the upcoming USA or canada game.

ive no problem with a player having that opinion, but as a pundit he needs to step back and see the bigger picture.
questioning two young out halves going into a game "we need to win" is just piling more pressure on them... the reality is we do not 'need to win' this game in any shape or form beyond the pride aspect. We are coming to the end of DKs managership and the winning or loosing of this game isnt going to affect it one iota.

Tim Robbins

artvandelay48 wrote: »

I disagree. When they discussed the outhalf situation before the scotland game she asked point blank if Rog was the form outhalf and followed it up with "but doesn't kidney pick on form?". No other journalist asked those questions. Thornley only seeks to justify decisions, not question them.

I don't see why that is a good question.

What it comes down to ROG is a superb tactical kicker, an awful tackler and a very good passer. He also has a very good rugby brain. So is he better than other players for...

Her question takes the technical aspects out of rugby and tries to just simplify it to form and then she personalises the issue.

Kidney knows more than everyone on against the head on managing rugby teams. And the Rugby public are becoming more like the soccer public where when a team looses a few matches they want the manager sacked.

I was never a Kidney fan because I don't like his type of Rugby. Others do. But having a go at Kidney soccer style is well out of order. Most people haven't a clue about rugby and any fool can blame a ref, manager whoever. I prefer the tradition of respect that rugby seems to be losing.

Sinbad_NI

artvandelay48 wrote: »

I disagree. When they discussed the outhalf situation before the scotland game she asked point blank if Rog was the form outhalf and followed it up with "but doesn't kidney pick on form?". No other journalist asked those questions. Thornley only seeks to justify decisions, not question them.

The awful response from FS and AQ to that question really got my goat up. AQ couldn't even keep a straight face as he tried to waffle obvious lies and FS just blurped though a typical nothing answer.
IMO these two should play no part in a show like ATH. maybe if theres an old rugby mates chat show they'd be a perfect host but for opinions and comment they are terrible.

awec

P_1 wrote: »

That's something that has annoyed me with a large part of the rugby community in Ireland. Everything is short term, there doesn't seem to be any kind of long term thinking happening with a lot of people

Everyone is too afraid to lose.