How do you feel about the Mens Rights Movement?

Woodward

I'm just looking to hear what the ladies opinions on it are. Do you support it? Do you think the issues are valid? Would you join it or work against it? The main issues tend to be infant circumcision, the lack of resources for male victims of domestic violence, unfair court treatment, family law discrimination, lack of due process in rape trials and the lack of recognition of male victims rape.

If you want to learn more I suggest you check out the Mens Rights Thread in tGC, Girlwriteswhat youtube channel or Warren Farrells books/talks. I would avoid Paul Elam and who is a very vocal MRA and tends to speak as if he represents the whole movement but most in the movement feel his rhetoric is a bit too extreme

Legs.Eleven

I support any cause where people are being treated unfairly, man or woman. Who in their right mind wouldn't.

Not a fan of those who use it as a stick to beat feminists with though as we believe women have causes which are just as valid.

Being a feminist doesn't preclude me from supporting the rights of all people. I can be more than one "ist".

It's the people against the system, not man against woman or visa versa.

Madam_X

Woodward wrote: »

Do you support it? Do you think the issues are valid?

Of course.

Would you join it or work against it?

Why only one or the other, unless "join" means the same as "support"?

If you want to learn more I suggest you check out the Mens Rights Thread in tGC

I wouldn't. Very unwelcoming place - only due to a small number, but unfortunately, they shout the loudest.

Had a look at the Paul Elam website home page just there - merely a few sentences had me feeling depressed enough to click out of it. Thank feck he's viewed as too extreme, because... what a vile person. There's language on that site like "titty hall" and "feminists can suck dicks". FFS...

And the area of men's issues is presented as "Problems caused by women". Nope, they're not all caused by women.

Legs.Eleven

Yep I'd have to agree with Madame X. Although I support the causes in your post OP, that thread is not a very welcoming place for female posters.

Lyaiera

Woodward wrote: »

I'm just looking to hear what the ladies opinions on it are. Do you support it? Do you think the issues are valid? Would you join it or work against it? The main issues tend to be infant circumcision, the lack of resources for male victims of domestic violence, unfair court treatment, family law discrimination, lack of due process in rape trials and the lack of recognition of male victims rape.

All of those issues I see paralleling feminist issues. Where they're to do with traditional patriarchal roles that see women as weak and men as strong and dominant. With family law there's the traditional view of men as the provider and women as the typical parent. Both of those aspects need to be addressed to get a balance that's fair for men and women. That includes paternity leave and the like so there isn't a presumed imbalance between male and female careers. Domestic violence and rape cases have similar issues where men are seen as aggressive and unable to be abused so women must be weak and incapable of abusing. Both horrendous notions that do a disservice to caring women and hurting men. That leads onto the element I didn't see you mention, the automatic presumption that child abuse is perpetrated by solely men. Again stereotyping men as incapable of looking after children or being caring and women being naturally adept at it.

Those are the areas I've seen that are clear cut. With circumcision it's hugely divided along cultural lines and there seems to be no one distinct ideology. That's to be expected though as an equality drive will have differing opinions amongst all it's non-cohesive elements.

I've never heard about "lack of due process in rape cases." Unless you're talking about the inability for a man to be raped by a woman under certain legal grounds that are hugely flawed.

Edit: And I'd agree with Madam X. The MRA thread in the GC can be extremely hostile due to a couple of posters.

jaffacakesyum

Absolutely support it. In my opinion, and I don't want to have a tit for tat debate about it, men's rights regarding to their children is far more important than for example any small pay discrimination (which is also wrong of course) that goes on in Ireland today. I can't believe in 2013 there are not equal rights after divorce with getting to see your own children. It's ludicrous.

As for the other issues in the men's rights movement, yes of course I support them, as long as they bring about equality across the board. Some issues that affect men indirectly also affect women, for example the link between lack of paternity leave or shared leave, and women falling behind in the workplace/career ladder. Joint effort in this matter could prove successful for both genders.

I do think however that some of the men's rights issues raised by some involved in the movement are miniscule compared to the issues women face worldwide on a daily basis such as not having the right to vote or drive, such as sex trafficking, rape, female genital mutilation, no control over their own bodies etc. I think unfortunately, like the way there are some extreme feminists who are not for equality at all but rather superiority, there are some men in the movement who have an inflated opinion of their gender. It happens on both sides. Ironically, these men give out about the extreme feminists (who I do not support at all by the way).

lazygal

I find some posters in TGC very off putting and just as bad as the so-called 'militant feminists' they rail against. I support equality but on a self centered level I'm more interested and involved in further equality for women, especially improved reproductive rights.

Legs.Eleven

Militant anything is never a good thing. Unfortunately these types of movements tend to get hijacked by them and give them a bad name. We have to learn to see beyond this extremism.

Mod

No discussing other forums please.

clairefontaine

I feel the same way about the men's movement as I do about the womens', mainly suspicion.

We are far more complicated than gender, with culture, class, nationhood, generational conditioning etc, at play to get absorbed by these universals that these ideogogues want to create.

Fundamentally, I had it up to my wazoo with feminism, and whatever the men do, I hope they don't make the same mistakes their female counterparts did post 1960s. And there was some damage done alright.

If they are coming out of the US, I can see the boy crisis there. In Ireland, not as much. I agree with sorting out all the issues in the OP, but I think things should be done issue by issue rather than a blanket gender platform, which is a mistake feminists made I feel.

jaffacakesyum

clairefontaine wrote: »

I feel the same way about the men's movement as I do about the womens', mainly suspicion.

We are far more complicated than gender, with culture, class, nationhood, generational conditioning etc, at play to get absorbed by these universals that these ideogogues want to create.

Fundamentally, I had it up to my wazoo with feminism, and whatever the men do, I hope they don't make the same mistakes their female counterparts did post 1960s. And there was some damage done alright.

If they are coming out of the US, I can see the boy crisis there. In Ireland, not as much. I agree with sorting out all the issues in the OP, but I think things should be done issue by issue rather than a blanket gender platform, which is a mistake feminists made I feel.

I don't really understand this post The feminist movement arose from there being clear laws discriminating against women. There was no other way to target an issue that only affected one gender. It didn't affect men. Similarly, rights involving those of African American race in the US cannot be done "by issue" they have to reform laws that affect a whole blanket race.

clairefontaine

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I don't really understand this post The feminist movement arose from there being clear laws discriminating against women. There was no other way to target an issue that only affected one gender. It didn't affect men. Similarly, rights involving those of African American race in the US cannot be done "by issue" they have to reform laws that affect a whole blanket race.

We are not talking about laws anymore, the laws are in place, things are alot more subtle than that now. We don't live in isolation and all this partiality is going to get us to lose sight of the picture.

There are no laws that specifically target African Americans anymore, or women, or men. The laws are there. It's a whole other thing at work that involves, race, class, religion, etc. Not just gender.

Take circumcision for example. Why can't this be a medical vs religious practise issue?

eviltwin

I would fully support men's rights but I'm a feminist and I happen to work for a feminist organisation so the few times I have gotten into debates with men on various subjects I've been treated as the enemy and regarded as part of the problem not the solution. This when I am usually in agreement with what they say. So I don't engage anymore.

I will always support equal rights for both sexes but I am sick having to defend the work done to help vulnerable women around the world as if its an either/or situation. You can support both.

jaffacakesyum

clairefontaine wrote: »

We are not talking about laws anymore, the laws are in place, things are alot more subtle than that now. We don't live in isolation and all this partiality is going to get us to lose sight of the picture.

There are no laws that specifically target African Americans anymore, or women, or men. The laws are there. It's a whole other thing at work that involves, race, class, religion, etc. Not just gender.

Take circumcision for example. Why can't this be a medical vs religious practise issue?

Ok I get you. It's just in your post you said you hoped men's right's movements wouldn't go down the same route and make the same mistakes as the 60s feminists. I don't understand how history could have changed at all if it hadn't gone down the route of gender specifics.

But yes I agree circumcision could be considered in terms of medical vs religious practice. But then again so could female genital mutilation, yet I still see that as a very misogynistic practice so it's difficult not to think of it as a woman's rights issue. It's interesting.

clairefontaine

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

Ok I get you. It's just in your post you said you hoped men's right's movements wouldn't go down the same route and make the same mistakes as the 60s feminists. I don't understand how history could have changed at all if it hadn't gone down the route of gender specifics.

But yes I agree circumcision could be considered in terms of medical vs religious practice. But then again so could female genital mutilation, yet I still see that as a very misogynistic practice so it's difficult not to think of it as a woman's rights issue. It's interesting.

The 60s and post 60s feminists made a lot of mistakes and I do hope the men's rights movements have seen and learned.

History may have changed but not all for the better. There was some damage done too, and not just to men, but to women, kids, the family etc. I don't mean because women were freed up from the kitchen, but because the sexual liberation movement also put a different kind of pressure on girls, double binded with the puritanical streak that runs through feminism too, and promoting the redundancy of men.

Not to mention that heterosexuality is practising internalised oppression, your husband of 30 years is a potential rapist, all that garbage that went along with it. When my friend's husband left her and her kids, my dad made a point "yas did that to yerselves!" He had a point [not that that kind of thing didn't happen before but it sure became easier after the 1960s].

Honestly, when I look at Mad Men, I don't see that anything has changed, it has just become more insidious and subtle.

I hope that men learn from the errors that were made, not that everything was an error, but there was damage done.

Personally I feel infant circumcision, male and female, should be illegal. But if you do that all the liberals will start whining about the white christian male imposing his ethnocentric views on the jews and the muslims and we are back to anti- semitism and islamophobia. It ties into the whole family too. The mother have to consent to it, but if they don't what will happen to them?

Same with domestic violence. Until its acknowledged that women can conduct it they wont get the same rehabilitative resources that men get when they get convicted, as in therapy. It's not there for women in the same way.

Let's look at date rape. You think that is just a woman's issue? Well, if men and boys weren't under this insane pressure to be macho and sexually active don't you think that might lessen the date rape statistics on women? If we eradicated male shame and allowed them to be sensitive without being called fags and pussies, this might change how they deal with women?

This is what I mean about working collaboratively as opposed to divisive partisan groups. It's better to think outside of isolation.

ashers222

The only persons rights I'm interested in fighting for are mine, best place to start tbh.

Viper_JB

I don't get it...can't we all just be non extremist humanists, and leave the nutters to their tin foil hats and prejudice.

rainbow kirby

I'd agree a *lot* more with the Good Men Project type of MRA than the /r/mensrights angry misogynist type. Many of the basic principles are things that everyone can agree with - stereotypes of male as aggressor/woman being weaker, family law discrimination, lack of recognition of male rape/sexual abuse, lack of recognition of male victims of domestic violence etc hurt everyone. That said, unfortunately there is an awful lot of misogyny, particularly online, thrown about by MRAs, which unfortunately dilutes what is a very valid message.

clairefontaine

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I'd agree a *lot* more with the Good Men Project type of MRA than the /r/mensrights angry misogynist type. Many of the basic principles are things that everyone can agree with - stereotypes of male as aggressor/woman being weaker, family law discrimination, lack of recognition of male rape/sexual abuse, lack of recognition of male victims of domestic violence etc hurt everyone. That said, unfortunately there is an awful lot of misogyny, particularly online, thrown about by MRAs, which unfortunately dilutes what is a very valid message.

To add to this, some of the work done by authors such as William Pollack on boyhood and dodgy models of masculinity are also insightful and productive.

Just as you get manhating within feminism you will also find strains of misogyny within MRAs, or hate whitey within black activism, etc. You will always get strains of that, unfortunately they have very loud voices that get heard quickly in victim politics.

cantdecide

For a start, I think the terms feminism and indeed masculinism need updating. OBVIOUSLY, certain issues affect one gender to a far greater extent than the other but a spirit of equality and meeting in the middle where possible, can't exist where even the terms are divisive, IMO.

pwurple

I believe that overhauling mens rights towards their own children, in terms of paternity leave/benefits and childcare would help both men and women. Men should be allowed to take care of their own children, and let the other partner go back to work if she wishes.

Inequality in this area affects both genders.

There are also some very upsetting instances of access to children being witheld in order to emotionally ransom the man when a relationship break down. This should be dealt with.

Woodward

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I'd agree a *lot* more with the Good Men Project type of MRA than the /r/mensrights angry misogynist type. Many of the basic principles are things that everyone can agree with - stereotypes of male as aggressor/woman being weaker, family law discrimination, lack of recognition of male rape/sexual abuse, lack of recognition of male victims of domestic violence etc hurt everyone. That said, unfortunately there is an awful lot of misogyny, particularly online, thrown about by MRAs, which unfortunately dilutes what is a very valid message.

TGMP has a lot of good stuff but once thing that irritates me is that they tend to view masculinity in how it affects women. I agree that masculinity needs to be rethought but I do not think it is best to do it in a framework of what is best for women

GalwayGuy2

I must admit a lot of the Men's Rights Activists come across like they have a little bit too much college like activism that blinds you to the larger picture. But there are a large number of people who stereotype and outright sexists, and misogynists.

This is what I mean about working collaboratively as opposed to divisive partisan groups. It's better to think outside of isolation.

This is actually quoting the whole post, but I didn't want to take up a large portion of the page.

I do agree with this, because it's blatantly obvious that sexism (or stereotyping based on sex would be a better term, because it may be becoming an overused term) cuts both sexes deep.

If men are seen as naturally violent (sexual or otherwise) then women are seen as victims, and needed to be protected.

If women are seen as the caregivers, then men aren't seen as the caregivers, and both will lose on an important facet of life.

And there's probably a hundred and one other examples, but personally I think the best way to help gender discrimination is to destroy the notion of, not sex, but gender. Give men and women the freedom to act "masculine" or "feminine" or in any way they want to act without recrimination or derision.

Das Kitty

I think what's sometimes forgotten is the fact that the problems on both "sides" are the result of the same societal setup.

This underlying false idea that men and women are profoundly different creatures. We're not. Physiologically, yes, women have to carry the pregnancies and all that goes with that, but our minds are not separated down the gender lines by birth. That element is almost completely a societal construct, IMO.

I think we're all on the same side, tbh.

Morag

Das Kitty wrote: »

I think what's sometimes forgotten is the fact that the problems on both "sides" are the result of the same societal setup.

Yup Patriarchy.

Viper_JB

Das Kitty wrote: »

I think what's sometimes forgotten is the fact that the problems on both "sides" are the result of the same societal setup.

This underlying false idea that men and women are profoundly different creatures. We're not. Physiologically, yes, women have to carry the pregnancies and all that goes with that, but our minds are not separated down the gender lines by birth. That element is almost completely a societal construct, IMO.

I think we're all on the same side, tbh.

I couldn't agree more, I don't like the idea of people looking at each other and immediately trying to pick out what ever differences they see first, we are all fundamentally the same and generally want the same things.

I want to see a society where everyone is treated equally regardless of gender or race and I don't think mens rights movements or womens rights movements will result in this they focus on our differences too much, everyone should be fighting for everyones rights....surely we're getting to a stage where this is what we should strive for, peoples rights and equality movements!

Links234

Das Kitty wrote: »

I think what's sometimes forgotten is the fact that the problems on both "sides" are the result of the same societal setup.

couldn't agree more

and I read something rather disturbing today, 25% of gay and bisexual men and 80% of trans people suffer from domestic abuse in the UK, according to a new charity report

One in four people in same-sex relationships suffer from domestic violence or abuse in the UK, a new study has revealed. 80% of trans people have also experienced emotionally, sexually or physically abusive behavior by a partner or ex-partner, according to UK-based charity Broken Rainbow. The charity has released the statistics for Gay, Bi and Trans Male Domestic Violence Awareness Week, which begins today (4 March).

Broken Rainbow says there has to be a greater investment in campaigns explaining in plain language what domestic violence and abuse actually is. They are also concerned some lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people have learned to accept abuse and violence as normal.

it shows how society's focusing on domestic violence has left a lot of people in the lurch.


and not just that, but the courts are going to have to be seriously dragged kicking and screaming into the future when we reach a time were same sex parents are legally recognised.