Docking pups' tails

Gardenview

A friend of mine just got a new pup at 8 weeks old and has decided that the pups tail looks awful and wants to get it docked... I have had numerous arguments with her over such a cruel act. She contacted local vet and he said he would perform the tail docking at 8 weeks old. As she is 8 weeks now she will be getting it done this week on this tiny little girl puppy. Am I gone mad or is this disgraceful and to the point tha the vet has agreed such a cruel act is a serious matter. The pup should of been docked in the first few days of life not 8 weeks later when the bone and nerves have formed sick.

dodderangler

It's supposed to be done in first week when pups are born
8 weeks old is bit late to do it
Dont know why it's illegal as most breeds are well known by their docked tails
My family have always had German pointers or a gundog of some sort and they don't look right with long tails
That's just my 2 cents

ISDW

dodderangler wrote: »

It's supposed to be done in first week when pups are born
8 weeks old is bit late to do it
Dont know why it's illegal as most breeds are well known by their docked tails
My family have always had German pointers or a gundog of some sort and they don't look right with long tails
That's just my 2 cents

Its not illegal.

I don't think that dogs with black coats look right, so i think they should all have to be dyed.

andreac

What vet is doing this? As I'm sure the veterinary council of Ireland would be interested to know about this.
Dogs that are docked are done between 1 & 3 days old. 8 weeks is far too old and they should only be done for medical reasons if the dog has been injured.

Knine

I have a gundog breed who used to be docked but are not any more. They look much nicer with their tails and it does not affect their working ability or increase their chances if injury

I have also had litters docked and it was extremely unpleasant. Never again.

I'm assuming the 8 week old puppy will have a GA for the procedure. Really disgraceful thst this person is doing this to the dog for cosmetic reasons.

kylith

I really wish docking would stop. They look so much better, and can communicate much more easily, when they have a full tail. For a pet animal docking in unnecessary and cruel.

Tranceypoo

Surely the breeder your friend got the pup from would object to this? Mind you that's if he/she got it from a reputable breeder I suppose.

Honestly, hearing things like this makes me sick, I'm in a bad mood today already!

Knine

Anyone that thinks the puppies don't feel pain when its done at a couple of days old probably never had pups docked!

Magenta

Gardenview wrote: »

The pup should of been docked in the first few days of life not 8 weeks later when the bone and nerves have formed sick.

A puppy's nervous system is formed before they are even born.

In my eyes, any breeder that docks is not reputable. I don't care how many trophies their dogs win- if they chop a puppy's tail off for some silly cosmetic reason, I don't want to know.

And as for the "oh they injure their tails out hunting" brigade- why aren't retrievers and setters docked, but pointers and spaniels are? And if it really is for safety, why are these breeds ALL bred to have long floppy ears that can caught in things just as easily? I call BS.

Knine

Magenta wrote: »

A puppy's nervous system is formed before they are even born.

In my eyes, any breeder that docks is not reputable. I don't care how many trophies their dogs win- if they chop a puppy's tail off for some silly cosmetic reason, I don't want to know.

And as for the "oh they injure their tails out hunting" brigade- why aren't retrievers and setters docked, but pointers and spaniels are? And if it really is for safety, why are these breeds ALL bred to have long floppy ears that can caught in things just as easily? I call BS.

I have also noticed that the HPR breed that I have is much more agile with his tail. Show breeders don't have to dock anymore.

Vojera

The Veterinary Council of Ireland now considers cosmetic and prophylactic docking to be an act of mutilation and has instructed its members that such requests are to be refused. It also says that members in breech of that will face disciplinary action.
Could be worth reporting the vet.

EDIT: I also found this post from last year that indicates that, regardless of the position of the VCI, it's actually against the law to dock a dog's tail for any reason other than when medically required once the dog is more than one month old.

meoklmrk91

I am completely against it, my fella has his tail docked and I would give anything for him to have a long, saggy tail.

Just a note on the vets, it may be worth reporting them, however I have witnessed people basically telling vets that pups will have their tails regardless of who does it, sort of a you should do it right or else someone else might do it wrong. Still no vet should be agreeing to it.

borderlinemeath

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

I am completely against it, my fella has his tail docked and I would give anything for him to have a long, saggy tail.

Just a note on the vets, it may be worth reporting them, however I have witnessed people basically telling vets that pups will have their tails regardless of who does it, sort of a you should do it right or else someone else might do it wrong. Still no vet should be agreeing to it.

This does happen. I know a vet that has worked in the UK and here in the south and she says that people here will try and emotionally blackmail the vets into doing the procedure, saying if they don't do it that they'll find somebody who will but they would prefer the vet as they're 'professional'. ie they'll get some backyard puppy farm breeder to butcher the dog. :mad:

JustRoss23

Most gundogs we dock there tails its fine as long as its done at an early stage:D:D its better for them to have there tailed docked. i usually get it on the 3rd day of birth and get the dew claws removed also.the docking of pet puppy dogs just for the sake of it or because it makes it look 'hard' is totally out of order, but the docking of a working dog is a necessity. When done properly it is an expensive job, but in my opinion is a cost well worth spent for the health and wellbeing of our working dog's.

kylith

It may be 'fine' but it's still cruel and pointless. I would see it as about equivalent to circumcising boys; done out of tradition, pointless, unnecessarily painful, and any supposed benefits are easily debunked.

JustRoss23

no its not. when it comes to a select breed;)of gundog its a must. having worked and bred Working springers since the age of 15y/o i think i can account from my experience's. I have seen so many nasty accidents with working long tailed dogs who have got tangled up in brush, in reeds when searching under water and the general rubbish that people dump in fields and lakes etc. so for the safety of them dogs its better to dock there tail's.

kylith

JustRoss23 wrote: »

no its not. when it comes to gundogs its a must. having worked and bred Working springers since the age of 15y/o i think i can account from my experience's. I have seen so many nasty accidents with working long tailed dogs who have got tangled up in brush, in reeds when searching under water and the general rubbish that people dump in fields and lakes etc. so for the safety of them dogs its better to dock there tail's.

Why not crop their ears as well then, sice those would be just as susceptible to injury? And why aren't GRs or Labs docked then they too do work as retrievers and therefore also in heavy cover? Why are Boxers and Dobes docked even though they are not used for any such work?

Knine

JustRoss23 wrote: »

no its not. when it comes to gundogs its a must. having worked and bred Working springers since the age of 15y/o i think i can account from my experience's. I have seen so many nasty accidents with working long tailed dogs who have got tangled up in brush, in reeds when searching under water and the general rubbish that people dump in fields and lakes etc. so for the safety of them dogs its better to dock there tail's.

Working gundogs are just as likely to injure their legs, ears and head as their tail. Thats what happens when breeds work in thick cover.

And no there are plenty of working gundogs with full tails.

JustRoss23

You missed my point i stated in my first post about family pet docking. my springers would be flushing going through scrub and i have seen many cases where there tail has caught them up so i choose to dock future pups.also i have seen many many labs and grs with docked tails too so each to there own i guess:p

JustRoss23

Knine wrote: »

Working gundogs are just as likely to injure their legs, ears and head as their tail. Thats what happens when breeds work in thick cover.

And no there are plenty of working gundogs with full tails.

Yes and there are plenty of working dogs with docked tails also:D

Nody

JustRoss23 wrote: »

Yes and there are plenty of working dogs with docked tails also:D

And plenty of people who should not own a dog but do; that there's plenty of something don't prove anything.

JustRoss23

yea exactly you cant say its wrong soo:D

Knine

If the tail is getting caught up then I would suggest grooming!

I've seen lots of working HPRs that go through the thickest of cover with tails. No problems. I've seen Springers get their ears damaged though.

JustRoss23

cant comment on other breeds as i my chosen one is the lovely springer:D eh no i will pass on the groom and just have the tails docked but thanks for the advice;)

Knine

JustRoss23 wrote: »

cant comment on other breeds as i my chosen one is the lovely springer:D eh no i will pass on the groom and just have the tails docked but thanks for the advice;)

Well ok so. Enjoy your lovely springers. Great dogs!

JustRoss23

There the best mate just are :D

Magenta

JustRoss23 wrote: »

also i have seen many many labs and grs with docked tails too

Photos/links please?

borderlinemeath

JustRoss23 wrote: »

yea exactly you cant say its wrong soo:D

Anybody can have an opinion on what is right and what is wrong. The majority of pet owners would consider getting a dogs tail docked barbaric. To them it's morally and ethically wrong.

I can't comment on hunters as I don't know that many but I have setters and they've never caught their tails and they're always in and out of ditches and undergrowth. The worst that tends to happen is that they tend to get scratches from brambles, mainly on their belly.

JustRoss23

Magenta wrote: »

Photos/links please?

have a search on the net you will see many examples;);)

lb1981

So many people commenting in this thread haven't got a clue what they are talking about.
Labradors don't have their tails docked as the end of their tail is not soft and does not cut easily.
I own springers and cocker's and they are spoilt rotten and looked after better than most peoples kids.
Docking their tail is not for fashion it is a necessity ,their tail end is soft and gets badly cut when charging through torn bushes and briar's.
I have seen the damage first hand on an undocked dogs tail it is very hard to heal and i have seen it ending up in an amputation as the infection got so bad,it is very hard to keep it uninfected .
A pup should be only docked before it is 3 days old and by someone that knows what they are doing ,it is like a baby having its cord cut.
If it has not been done by then you have to just leave it , it will be an amputation by then.
So do the people commenting on this saying its cruel not think that a dog cutting its tail week after week and loosing a lot of blood and having an infected tail is alright then.

JustRoss23

^^^^
well said mate. agree with what you said i have my springers done on day 3.

kylith

lb1981 wrote: »

A pup should be only docked before it is 3 days old and by someone that knows what they are doing ,it is like a baby having its cord cut.
If it has not been done by then you have to just leave it , it will be an amputation by then.

Not it isn't. The umbilical cord doesn't have any nerve endings and is designed to naturally separate from a baby, puppy, or other newborn mammal. The tail has plenty of nerve endings and bone and is not designed to naturally separate from the pup. There's a reason why humans born with a vestigial tail have them removed under anaesthetic rather than just chopping it off in the first day or so of life.

SillyMangoX

lb1981 wrote: »

I have seen the damage first hand on an undocked dogs tail it is very hard to heal and i have seen it ending up in an amputation as the infection got so bad,it is very hard to keep it uninfected .

I've seen first hand injuries in working dogs paws that end up with severe infection and amputation. Should they have their legs removed at birth too?:rolleyes:

lb1981

kylith wrote: »

Not it isn't. The umbilical cord doesn't have any nerve endings and is designed to naturally separate from a baby, puppy, or other newborn mammal. The tail has plenty of nerve endings and bone and is not designed to naturally separate from the pup. There's a reason why humans born with a vestigial tail have them removed under anaesthetic rather than just chopping it off in the first day or so of life.

There is no bone in the part of the tail that is cut off.

<snip>

Knine

SillyMangoX wrote: »

I've seen first hand injuries in working dogs paws that end up with severe infection and amputation. Should they have their legs removed at birth too?:rolleyes:

+1

These working gundogs must be going into cover arse first. Mine tend to go in head first.

lb1981

SillyMangoX wrote: »

I've seen first hand injuries in working dogs paws that end up with severe infection and amputation. Should they have their legs removed at birth too?:rolleyes:

Paws and legs do get injured sometimes yes but it is not that often were a soft tail is cut easily as the dog is charging through cover , the tail wags at speed once they are on to game so it is moving in the torn bush even if the dog is standing still.

kylith

lb1981 wrote: »

There is no bone in the part of the tail that is cut off.

Yes there is. Only the tip of the tail doesn't have vertebrae in it. Dogs are docked relatively close to their hips and the tail definitely does have bone there. I have seen bone showing on badly-docked puppies.

<snip>
Do you think this is less "cruel" than a dog cutting its tail every week while out hunting.

This is not an indication of lack of pain, and may indicate just the opposite. From P C Bennett and E Perini, Tail docking in dogs: a review of the issues. Australian Veterinary
Journal 81(4):208-218 (2003)

It is sometimes suggested that the fact that puppies fall asleep or suckle within a few minutes of tail-docking
indicates that they are not in pain. However, it could indicate the reverse. Others have pointed out that there
may be evolutionary reasons for puppies sleeping and suckling, as a way of conserving strength at a time of
injury. It is also possible that the puppies suckle to reduce the pain, as it is known that the act of suckling
stimulates the release of endogenous opioids (endorphins) that produce analgesia.

lb1981

Examples

lb1981

kylith wrote: »

Yes there is. Only the tip of the tail doesn't have vertebrae in it. Dogs are docked relatively close to their hips and the tail definitely does have bone there. I have seen bone showing on badly-docked puppies.


This is not an indication of lack of pain, and may indicate just the opposite. From P C Bennett and E Perini, Tail docking in dogs: a review of the issues. Australian Veterinary
Journal 81(4):208-218 (2003)

Any dog that is docked close to the hips or has bone showing was not docked correctly and was done by a fool.
That report is only opinion and is not fact ,it is just his view.
Im giving first hand experience here , i cant stand cruelty to animals so if i thought it was cruel it would not be done on my dogs.
All your doing is googling answers to try prove me wrong.

Wibbs

It's amazing how wild canines who have to hunt to survive and do so in various levels of cover evolved to have no tails. Oh wait. They didn't.

kylith

lb1981 wrote: »

Any dog that is docked close to the hips or has bone showing was not docked correctly and was done by a fool.
That report is only opinion and is not fact ,it is just his view.
Im giving first hand experience here , i cant stand cruelty to animals so if i thought it was cruel it would not be done on my dogs.
All your doing is googling answers to try prove me wrong.

I said relatively close to the hip, as opposed to about 90% of the way down the tail which is where the bone actually ends.

No, what I'm doing is researching studies which have shown that puppies feel pain when docked. If you have any studies showing the opposite you're welcome to link me to them.

lb1981

Wibbs wrote: »

It's amazing how wild canines who have to hunt to survive and do so in various levels of cover evolved to have no tails. Oh wait. They didn't.

Ok look at the structure of the tails ,they are strong, thick and well covered with fur, like labradores which are not docked for that reason.
As i said people just googling crap and have no experience in this field at all.

Knine

kylith wrote: »

I said relatively close to the hip, as opposed to about 90% of the way down the tail which is where the bone actually ends.

No, what I'm doing is researching studies which have shown that puppies feel pain when docked. If you have any studies showing the opposite you're welcome to link me to them.

Believe me they feel pain. Mine screamed. And as I mentioned Never again.

I've seen banding done too which was not as severe but takes longer.

Synyster Shadow

Iv a Doberman and he would look so odd with a full tail. That been said when I got him he was near dead. He was docked wrong and at 5 weeks old and had an infection in his stump that nearly went into his spine which would have killed him took months to fully heal and in the end sudocream fixed it as he wouldn't touch his tail cause he hated the taste. If It was done in first week it would have healed before he had the ability to chew it. He also had a few other problems but let's just say he was a lucky puppy and for the first few days he slept in bed with me and hubby (it was during the bad snow and had sinus infection and was under weight so had to keep him warm)

I don't say it should be illegal but people need to be educated as to when to have it done and do that before having a litter of pups

Magenta

lb1981 wrote: »

So many people commenting in this thread haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

lb1981 wrote: »

There is no bone in the part of the tail that is cut off.

Consider yourself educated.

lb1981

kylith wrote: »

I said relatively close to the hip, as opposed to about 90% of the way down the tail which is where the bone actually ends.

No, what I'm doing is researching studies which have shown that puppies feel pain when docked. If you have any studies showing the opposite you're welcome to link me to them.

That study proves noting it is only opinion and suggestions therefore it is not proved a puppy is in excruciating pain from being docked.

Knine

lb1981 wrote: »

That study proves noting it is only opinion and suggestions therefore it is not proved a puppy is in excruciating pain from being docked.

Well the screams of the puppies told me all I needed to know.

JustRoss23

well the same could be said for a dog stuck in brush hence why i have the docked the future springer pups.

lb1981

Knine wrote: »

Believe me they feel pain. Mine screamed. And as I mentioned Never again.

I've seen banding done too which was not as severe but takes longer.

Dont like that banding it is too prolonged.

What i think should be done is the way it is in England , working dogs are docked by a vet so you have a cert for docking and de clawed so when selling the pups you have the cert to prove they were done properly , that would cut out the cowboy jobs that are done on dogs.

P.s i dont agree with cropping or docking for fashion, the reason it is done on some working dogs is because it is an necessity.

lb1981

Knine wrote: »

Well the screams of the puppies told me all I needed to know.

mate who the hell done your dogs , the most ever heard is a small yelp and that was it ,the twine tied around the tail for a few mins numbs the area a bit before the cut.
Your dogs should not have been screaming.

kylith

lb1981 wrote: »

That study proves noting it is only opinion and suggestions therefore it is not proved a puppy is in excruciating pain from being docked.

You have nothing but opinion that it doesn't hurt. The study I quoted found that in a 1996 survey of Australian vets 75% believed that it caused significant pain and none believed that no pain was felt. Another study observed

All pups appeared distressed by the amputation of the tail. Relatively continuous mild
vocalizations during the preparation of the tail turned dramatically to repeated and intense
shrieking vocalizations at the moment the tail was docked. The intensity of vocalizations
decreased slightly (but was still above the intensity made during preparation of the tail) in the
period between amputation and placement of the suture (if appropriate). At the moment of
piercing the skin for suture placement, vocalizations again returned to levels comparable with the
amputation. Similar intense vocalizations were noticed when pressure was placed on the suture
material as the knot was tied. The average number of shrieks made during the amputation of the
tail was 24 (range of 5 to 33). The average number of whimpers made during the amputation of
the tail was 18 (range of 2 to 46). All pups exhibited some degree of bleeding from the stump
following docking

G J Noonan et al., Behavioural observations of puppies undergoing tail docking. Applied Animal
Behaviour Science 49:335-342 (1996)

Again, if you have any studies showing that it does not cause pain you are welcome to link to them.