Landlord not renewing lease - notice period- deposit

pa2606

Hello

Thank you in advance for helping me understand how I stand in relation to the below:

My rental agreement will expire in the middle of this month. I have received an email from my landlord earlier this week informing us that he has no intention of renewing as he is looking to sell the house. He is giving us one month notice to vacate the property.

I have started looking around for a different house/apartment in the area.
It doesn't seem that easy to find any sort of suitable accommodation which I can afford.(and I am not picky).
I have a daughter who is in primary school so I am bound to remain in the area for school, work and childcare arrangements.

The landlord is giving us a set date to vacate the property. My problem is that I need to seriously start looking for another place to move to, but most of the places are available immediately and require payment of the deposit and first month rent right on the spot.

I cannot afford paying rent in two places at the same time, this wasn't a planned expense and I have no money set aside.
Am I required by law to stick with the date he is giving me? If I find something suitable can I move out of the place and not been liable to pay the rent up to the last week of the month?

Thank you.

djimi

First off, you are entitled to 6 weeks (42 days) notice once the tenancy is between 1 and 2 years. As the landlord seems keen to terminate the lease it may be possible to negotiate a shorter notice period if it suits you, but if it does not suit you then the landlord has no legal right to demand that you are out of the property after a month.

You need to sit down and discuss this matter with the landlord. Explain the situation that you now find yourself in and see what arrangement you can come to. You may have to agree to a small crossover of rent between two properties (say you find yourself two weeks into a month in your current property when you move then you will have to fund the two weeks plus the month up front for the new property), but this is something that you can negotiate with your current landlord. If they are keen to get you out of the property then Im sure they will be willing to deal to ensure that it happens swiftly and smoothly.

Tigger

djimi wrote: »

First off, you are entitled to 6 weeks (42 days) notice once the tenancy is between 1 and 2 years. As the landlord seems keen to terminate the lease it may be possible to negotiate a shorter notice period if it suits you, but if it does not suit you then the landlord has no legal right to demand that you are out of the property after a month.

You need to sit down and discuss this matter with the landlord. Explain the situation that you now find yourself in and see what arrangement you can come to. You may have to agree to a small crossover of rent between two properties (say you find yourself two weeks into a month in your current property when you move then you will have to fund the two weeks plus the month up front for the new property), but this is something that you can negotiate with your current landlord. If they are keen to get you out of the property then Im sure they will be willing to deal to ensure that it happens swiftly and smoothly.

if you finish up a years lease then how do you have 42 days?
the o has not claimed a part 4

Where a tenancy that was entered into for a specific period (i.e. a fixed term
tenancy) comes to the end of that period, a notice of termination does not
have to be issued. If that period was 6 months or more and the tenant intends
to continue in occupation, he/she must inform the landlord of that intention
between one and three months before the expiry date

http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Termnating_Tenancy.pdf

if you were palnning to stay you had to tell him before 1 month from the end and in fact the landlord is being fair

also it should be against the charter to give what amounts to legal advice
links to relevant documents should be needed

sorry op

djimi

You dont claim a part 4; you aquire it automatically after 6 months. You need to inform the landlord of your intention to stay on as you may be liable for any costs that they have incurred readvertising etc, but not informing them does not mean that you do not aquire part 4 rights.

Edit: if you want a link Trigger this is taken from Citizens Information:

If you do not notify your landlord you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4 but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss she/he has incurred because you did not notify him/her of your intention to remain in the tenancy

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

Tigger

djimi wrote: »

You dont claim a part 4; you aquire it automatically after 6 months. You need to inform the landlord of your intention to stay on as you may be liable for any costs that they have incurred readvertising etc, but not informing them does not mean that you do not aquire part 4 rights.

did you read my post

Where a tenancy that was entered into for a specific period (i.e. a fixed term
tenancy) comes to the end of that period, a notice of termination does not
have to be issued. If that period was 6 months or more and the tenant intends
to continue in occupation, he/she must inform the landlord of that intention
between one and three months before the expiry date

i didnt make that up
the fixed term is the notice
its written in the lease
you have to claim the right to a different end date 1 month before the end of the fixed term

this is from the ptrb themselves
look at the link

djimi

Its my understanding that no notice of termination is required by a tenant who wishes to vacate after a fixed term lease has expired, but this does not apply to a landlord as the tenant has automatically aquired part 4 tenancy rights after 6 months, which take effect the moment the fixed term lease has expired. Ive read quite a few people who agree the same.

Tigger

djimi wrote: »

You dont claim a part 4; you aquire it automatically after 6 months. You need to inform the landlord of your intention to stay on as you may be liable for any costs that they have incurred readvertising etc, but not informing them does not mean that you do not aquire part 4 rights.

Edit: if you want a link Trigger this is taken from Citizens Information:



http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

its Tigger
not trigger

from your link that links to the harder to understand 2004 act

Residential Tenancies Act 2004. [2004.]
Pt.9
Proposed
overholding under a
fixed term tenancy.
Equal Status Act
2000 not prejudiced.
Amendment of
Housing
(Miscellaneous
Provisions) Act
1997.
116
195.—(1) In this section ‘‘relevant dwelling’’ means a dwelling, the
subject of a tenancy that is for a fixed period of at least 6 months.
(2) The tenant of a relevant dwelling, if he or she intends to
remain (on whatever basis, if any, that is open to him or her to do
so) in occupation of the dwelling after the expiry of the period of
the tenancy concerned, shall notify the landlord of that intention.
(3) That notification shall not be made to the landlord—
(a) any later than 1 month before, nor
(b) any sooner than 3 months before,
the expiry of the period of that tenancy.

this is the text of the law

Tigger

djimi wrote: »

Its my understanding that no notice of termination is required by a tenant who wishes to vacate after a fixed term lease has expired, but this does not apply to a landlord as the tenant has automatically aquired part 4 tenancy rights after 6 months, which take effect the moment the fixed term lease has expired. Ive read quite a few people who agree the same.

read the law as i've quoted
100 people saying something that is wrong is still wrong

ive been a tennant for over 20 years
the 2004 act is brilliant for tennants but it still needs to be understood

pre the 2004 act all sorts of bad things were happening but in case anyone is looking for the answer i dont think its shouild be left wrong

why dont you delet yopur posts and ill delet mine and you can link to the correct 2004 act and the ptrb pdf that explains it

Tigger

djimi wrote: »

Its my understanding that no notice of termination is required by a tenant who wishes to vacate after a fixed term lease has expired, but this does not apply to a landlord as the tenant has automatically aquired part 4 tenancy rights after 6 months, which take effect the moment the fixed term lease has expired. Ive read quite a few people who agree the same.

the citizens info state

If you do not notify your landlord you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4 but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss she/he has incurred because you did not notify him/her of your intention to remain in the tenancy.

but thats is more of a: it will take them 35 days to turf you out thing

and you could have to pay 2 months rent extraa

it should be left here that the op would have been better off claiming 35 days past the end of tennency date and then lookinbg for a new home

djimi

You are quoting the wrong part of the RTA 2004. The relevant point is that after 6 months of a tenancy the tenant automatically aquires part 4 tenancy rights (unless termination notice has been issued prior to this). Link: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/sec0028.html The landlord cannot refuse these rights. The OP did not specify whether or not they have been in the tenancy for more than 6 months, but if we are to take it that they have been then they have already aquired part 4 tenancy rights, which take effect immediately at the end of the fixed term lease.

And I am not giving legal advise; I am expressing my opinion based on my understanding of the tenancy laws. If the OP wants legal advise then they should consult with a legal professional on the matter.

And dont patronize me by telling me to delete my posts again.

Zamboni

pa2606 wrote: »

Hello

Thank you in advance for helping me understand how I stand in relation to the below:

My rental agreement will expire in the middle of this month. I have received an email from my landlord earlier this week informing us that he has no intention of renewing as he is looking to sell the house. He is giving us one month notice to vacate the property.

I have started looking around for a different house/apartment in the area.
It doesn't seem that easy to find any sort of suitable accommodation which I can afford.(and I am not picky).
I have a daughter who is in primary school so I am bound to remain in the area for school, work and childcare arrangements.

The landlord is giving us a set date to vacate the property. My problem is that I need to seriously start looking for another place to move to, but most of the places are available immediately and require payment of the deposit and first month rent right on the spot.

I cannot afford paying rent in two places at the same time, this wasn't a planned expense and I have no money set aside.
Am I required by law to stick with the date he is giving me? If I find something suitable can I move out of the place and not been liable to pay the rent up to the last week of the month?

Thank you.

This was not an unexpected event.
Any tenant approaching the end of their lease should always prepare financially for the possibility of non-renewal i.e. have adequate capital to move and to monitor the market and see what other accommodation is available.
Leaving the lecture that you don't to hear aside, you are looking for rental accommodation in the most sought after area in the country.
If you think you may be not be able to afford accommodation in the time-frame and need assistance you should contact your local DSP office.

odds_on

Tigger wrote: »

if you finish up a years lease then how do you have 42 days?
the o has not claimed a part 4



http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Termnating_Tenancy.pdf

if you were palnning to stay you had to tell him before 1 month from the end and in fact the landlord is being fair

also it should be against the charter to give what amounts to legal advice
links to relevant documents should be needed

sorry op

After 6 months in occupancy, Part 4 rights are acquired by the tenant. This gives the right to the tenant to remain in the property for a total of 4 years (i.e. for a further 3.5 years) without signing a new lease. The Part 4 rights acquired, commence at the time of 6 months in occupancy and run along side a fixed term agreement for the second 6 months of the fixed term.

The tenant should advise the landlord between 3 months and 1 month prior to the end of the fixed term if the tenant wishes to remain in the property under his Part 4 rights. However, if the tenant fails to advise the landlord of his wish to remain, it does not negate the tenant's rights to remain - the tenant may be liable for any reasonable expenses incurred by the landlord.

Under Part 4 tenancy laws, a landlord may regain possession of his property using any of six grounds as set out in the RTA 2004, of which one is if the landlord intends to sell the property within the next 3 months.

Therefore, we have a tenant who wishes to remain and a landlord who wants possession of his property. The fact that the tenant may remain in the property at the end of the fixed term would imply that a Notice of Termination must therefore be issued by the landlord to regain possession.

A NoT must be in writing, stating the reason for termination, various other details and must be signed by the landlord. It would be unlikely that an email would be "signed" by a person. Thus the Notice would be invalid.

The notice period in the NoT must be in accordance to the RTA 2004 - 35 days if the tenant has been in occupancy for more than 6 months but less that 1 year.

However, the problem comes as to whether a landlord may issue a NoT during a fixed term tenancy or must he wait until the fixed term has expired before a valid notice may be issued.

My belief is that a valid NoT may be issued during the Fixed term as part of Part 4 rights acquired by the landlord and tenants; thus a landlord may regain possession (required notice period having been given) immediately the fixed term has expired.

There are others who say that the NOT may only be issued once the Fixed term has expired. Thus, a landlord must wait a further 42 days (because at this stage the tenant will have been in occupancy for more than 1 year but less than 2 years) before he can regain possession.

Lastly, if a landlord uses for the grounds of eviction that he intends to sell the property, and within 3 months has rented the property to new tenants, he is in breach of his Notice of Termination details and the ex tenant is open to make a claim against the landlord for damages and illegal eviction.

MMAGirl

I dont think people understand what a lease is.
A
Its pretty obvious that a lease for one year means 1 year.
Thats your end date right there. If you or the landlord wants to extend or terminate early or carry on under another lease or a part 4 then you can agree to.

But notice is taken as given on the day you signed the lease. If the landlord doesnt wish you to stay you must be gone by the last day in your lease.

djimi

MMAGirl wrote: »

I dont think people understand what a lease is.
A
Its pretty obvious that a lease for one year means 1 year.
Thats your end date right there. If you or the landlord wants to extend or terminate early or carry on under another lease or a part 4 then you can agree to.

But notice is taken as given on the day you signed the lease. If the landlord doesnt wish you to stay you must be gone by the last day in your lease.

This would be true were it not for the existence of part 4 tenancy rights. Once a tenant is in a property for 6 months (be it on a fixed term lease or not) they are entitled to remain in the property for 4 further years, unless the landlord triggers one of the six termination clauses as set out in the part 4 tenancy (none of which allow a landlord to terminate a tenancy simply because the lease has expired).

TheOldHand

MMAGirl wrote: »

I dont think people understand what a lease is.
A
Its pretty obvious that a lease for one year means 1 year.
Thats your end date right there. If you or the landlord wants to extend or terminate early or carry on under another lease or a part 4 then you can agree to.

But notice is taken as given on the day you signed the lease. If the landlord doesnt wish you to stay you must be gone by the last day in your lease.

Wow. I had to register to boards just to comment on this crazy advice. A tenant has part 4 rights as soon as they are in situ more than 6 months, lease or no lease. At the end of the lease term it is no further tenancy periods have to be negotiated. The tenant has the right to remain but is supposed to inform the landlord. Failure to do so could result in the landlord suing the tenant for costs associated with advertising. However, the tenant can just leave at the end of the period with no notice required.

MMAgirl could you refrain from posting legal advice in future, it would benefit us all.

MMAGirl

TheOldHand wrote: »

Wow. I had to register to boards just to comment on this crazy advice. A tenant has part 4 rights as soon as they are in situ more than 6 months, lease or no lease. At the end of the lease term it is no further tenancy periods have to be negotiated. The tenant has the right to remain but is supposed to inform the landlord. Failure to do so could result in the landlord suing the tenant for costs associated with advertising. However, the tenant can just leave at the end of the period with no notice required.

MMAgirl could you refrain from posting legal advice in future, it would benefit us all.

Im not giving advice. Im stating a fact. The clue is in the name. "Fixed Term"
You get a part 4 after the lease has expired - if the landlord lets you stay beyond the time specified in the lease. If they dont, you honour the terms of the lease you signed.

djimi

MMAGirl wrote: »

Im not giving advice. Im stating a fact. The clue is in the name. "Fixed Term"
You get a part 4 after the lease has expired - if the landlord lets you stay beyond the time specified in the lease. If they dont, you honour the terms of the lease you signed.

You "get" a part 4 after 6 months regardless. A landlord cannot refuse your part 4 rights; you already have them and they just take effect the moment a fixed term lease expires.

TheOldHand

MMAGirl wrote: »

Im not giving advice. Im stating a fact. The clue is in the name. "Fixed Term"
You get a part 4 after the lease has expired - if the landlord lets you stay beyond the time specified in the lease. If they dont, you honour the terms of the lease you signed.

Wrong again.
You have a part 4 tenancy after 6 months, nothing to do with the terms of the lease. Have a read of this if you are able.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/index.html
The landlord has not right to end a part 4 tenancy on a whim.

This is from the PRTB themselves.

Where a tenancy has lasted more than 6 months and less than 4 years, the
landlord must state in the termination notice the reason the tenancy is being
terminated and the termination will not be valid unless that reason relates to
one of the following:
- the tenant has failed to comply with the obligations of the tenancy
- the landlord intends to sell the dwelling within the next 3 months
- the dwelling is no longer suited to the needs of the occupying household
- the landlord requires the dwelling for own or family member occupation
- vacant possession is required for substantial refurbishment of the dwelling
- the landlord intends to change the use of the dwelling.

MMA girl can you show me any references to back up your claims?

MMAGirl

djimi wrote: »

You "get" a part 4 after 6 months regardless. A landlord cannot refuse your part 4 rights; you already have them and they just take effect the moment a fixed term lease expires.

Lord help us :rolleyes:

Why dont you read the entire text you linked to. You might find actually reading it helps. In fact its been posted on message boards thousands of times already. And try to find out what a Lease is, will you.

Its like trying to tell someone to just look at the sky to see what colour it is, and they just wont look, but keep saying its green, because they dreamt it.

But carry on anyway.

TheOldHand

MMAGirl wrote: »

Lord help us :rolleyes:

Its like trying to tell someone to just look at the sky to see what colour it is, and they just wont look, but keep saying its green, because they dreamt it.

Carry on.

Tell me about it. I've just shown you to be completely wrong with references from the PRTB and actual legislation.

MMAGirl

TheOldHand wrote: »

Tell me about it. I've just shown you to be completely wrong with references from the PRTB and actual legislation.

You havent shown anything.
Im not going to feed the troll. Read the damned link YOU posted. Its all there for you to help yourself.

odds_on

MMAGirl wrote: »

Im not giving advice. Im stating a fact. The clue is in the name. "Fixed Term"
You get a part 4 after the lease has expired - if the landlord lets you stay beyond the time specified in the lease. If they dont, you honour the terms of the lease you signed.

As both myself djimi have indicated, once a tenant has been in occupancy for six months, they automatically acquire certain rights (known as Part 4 rights). These rights include the right to remain in the property for a total of 4 years without signing another lease.

At the end of a fixed term lease, the tenant may vacate without giving notice and the landlord is free to find a new tenant for a new tenancy.

However, at the end of a fixed term lease, a tenant has the absolute right to remain in occupancy. He should advise the landlord at least 1 month prior to the end of the fixed term of his wish to remain.

However, if the tenant fails to advise (note: advise, not "ask") the landlord, it does not take away from the tenant's rights to remain in the property but the tenant may be liable for a landlord's expenses (which may include advertising costs, estate agents fees etc).

Fixed term agreements only take effect when they give a tenant more security of tenure over and above those provided in the RTA 2004.

I sincerely hope that you are not a landlord. If you are, you need to brush up on both landlord and tenant's rights and obligations.

djimi

MMAGirl wrote: »

You havent shown anything.
Im not going to feed the troll. Read the damned link YOU posted. Its all there for you to help yourself.

How about you post the part of the RTA that you think backs up your claim?

D3PO

lads and lassies can you stop with the back and forth. Its COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT here.

The OP has asked can they leave earlier. The answer is no.

Part 4 or no part 4 that is still the answer.

MMAGirl

Believe me or dont believe me, it makes no difference to my life.
You not believing that a fixed term lease expires after a fixed term and becomes a part 4 only if the landlord decides that the tenant can stay after their end date, specified in the lease on day one, does not change the laws of the land.
I know the law and some people in here are too lazy to even read the links that they post themselves.
So I'm not going to post the text, i'm actually going to require you to read your own links

So keep your head in the sand. Next you'll be saying that praying works if you need anything.

djimi

Okay; this has already been linked, but Ill link it again.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

The relevant part:

Part 4 tenancies
Under Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, if you have been renting for at least 6 months and haven't been given a written notice of termination, you automatically acquire security of tenure in 4-year cycles. Any tenancy, therefore, that has lasted more than 6 months is a 'Part 4 tenancy' or a 'further Part 4 tenancy'. After 4 years of your tenancy has passed, a new tenancy starts. The same 4-year cycle can begin again, leading to a further Part 4 tenancy.

When you have acquired a Part 4 tenancy your landlord can terminate your tenancy only in certain circumstances. Read more about if your landlord wants you to leave here. If you want to leave during your Part 4 tenancy and you do not have a fixed-term agreement, you do not have to give a reason but you must give the correct period of notice in writing as required under the Act. (See 'Rules' below).

Claiming a Part 4 tenancy at the end of a lease
If you have a fixed-term contract or lease (for example of 1 year) and you wish to remain in the property under the rights acquired under Part 4, you must notify your landlord of your intention to stay in the property between 3 months and 1 month before the expiry of your fixed–term tenancy or lease agreement. You can use this sample letter of notification to remain in the property under Part 4.

If you do not notify your landlord you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4 but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss she/he has incurred because you did not notify him/her of your intention to remain in the tenancy.

Claiming a Part 4 tenancy during a periodic tenancy
If you are in a periodic tenancy (renting without a lease or a contract) you also have automatic security of tenure under Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 but you don’t have to notify your landlord of your intention to remain in the property for up to 4 years.

Ive bolded the relevant points in red.

TheOldHand

MMAGirl wrote: »

Believe me or dont believe me, it makes no difference to my life.
You not believing that a fixed term lease expires after a fixed term and becomes a part 4 only if the landlord decides that the tenant can stay after their end date, specified in the lease on day one, does not change the laws of the land.
I know the law and some people in here are too lazy to even read the links that they post themselves.
So I'm not going to post the text, i'm actually going to require you to read your own links

So keep your head in the sand. Next you'll be saying that praying works if you need anything.

How convenient. I hope you get to try that one out at PRTB hearing soon.

D3PO, I beleve it is the case that if a landlord does not serve a valid notice that the tenant can leave without penalty. I'm trying to find some supporting material for this but I'm not sure if in this case the correct notice has been served.

Giblet

MMAGirl wrote: »

Believe me or dont believe me, it makes no difference to my life.
You not believing that a fixed term lease expires after a fixed term and becomes a part 4 only if the landlord decides that the tenant can stay after their end date, specified in the lease on day one, does not change the laws of the land.
I know the law and some people in here are too lazy to even read the links that they post themselves.
So I'm not going to post the text, i'm actually going to require you to read your own links

So keep your head in the sand. Next you'll be saying that praying works if you need anything.

*Douche Chill*

odds_on

TheOldHand wrote: »

How convenient. I hope you get to try that one out at PRTB hearing soon.

D3PO, I beleve it is the case that if a landlord does not serve a valid notice that the tenant can leave without penalty. I'm trying to find some supporting material for this but I'm not sure if in this case the correct notice has been served.

If the Notice of Termination issued by a landlord is not valid, the tenant does not have to leave.

However, if a tenant leaves without (written) objection he will usually be deemed to have accepted the landlord's request and if a claim against the landlord for illegal eviction were made at a later date, the tenant would be unlikely to awarded damages unless there were other provable circumstances such as harassment etc.

MMAGirl

Oh you are so close.
Now look up what a lease means in law. Particularly a fixed term lease.

Teach a man to fish.

djimi

Im through debating this. Its written in front of you in black and white (and red); if you disagree with it then more power to you.

D3PO

TheOldHand wrote: »

How convenient. I hope you get to try that one out at PRTB hearing soon.

D3PO, I beleve it is the case that if a landlord does not serve a valid notice that the tenant can leave without penalty. I'm trying to find some supporting material for this but I'm not sure if in this case the correct notice has been served.

that is incorrect. IF and its unknown incorrect notice has been served then the notice is invalid and the OP could remain until correct notice has been served.

getting incorrect notice does not mean you can leave early.

TheOldHand

MMAGirl wrote: »

Oh you are so close.
Now look up what a lease means in law. Particularly a fixed term lease.

Teach a man to fish.

Ok, I've had enough of this. I will end it once and for all.

PART 4

Security of Tenure

Non-application of Part.

25.—(1) This Part does not apply to a tenancy of a dwelling where the conditions specified in subsection (2) are satisfied if the landlord of the dwelling opts, in accordance with subsection (3), for this Part not to apply to it.

(2) Those conditions are—

(a) the dwelling concerned is one of 2 dwellings within a building,

(b) that building, as originally constructed, comprised a single dwelling, and

(c) the landlord resides in the other dwelling.

(3) A landlord's opting as mentioned in subsection (1) shall be signified in writing in a notice served by him or her on the tenant before the commencement of the tenancy.

(4) This Part does not apply to a tenancy of a dwelling—

(a) if the landlord of the dwelling is entitled, in relation to expenditure incurred on the construction of, conversion into, or, as the case may be, refurbishment of, the dwelling, to a deduction of the kind referred to in section 380B(2), 380C(4) or 380D(2) (inserted by the Finance Act 1999 ) of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 , or

(b) if the entitlement of the tenant to occupy the dwelling is connected with his or her continuance in any office, appointment or employment.

Greater security of tenure not affected.

26.—Nothing in this Part operates to derogate from any rights the tenant enjoys for the time being (by reason of the tenancy concerned) that are more beneficial for the tenant than those created by this Part.

These are the only reasons that a part 4 tenancy will not apply. Nothing to do with fixed term leases.


Periods of occupancy before relevant date to be disregarded.

27.—In this Part “continuous period of 6 months” means a continuous period of 6 months that commences on or after the relevant date.

Statutory protection — “Part 4 tenancy” — after 6 months occupation.

28.—(1) Where a person has, under a tenancy, been in occupation of a dwelling for a continuous period of 6 months then, if the condition specified in subsection (3) is satisfied, the following protection applies for the benefit of that person.

(2) That protection is that, subject to Chapter 3, the tenancy mentioned in subsection (1) shall (if it would not or might not do so otherwise) continue in being—

(a) unless paragraph (b) applies, for the period of 4 years from—

(i) the commencement of the tenancy, or

(ii) the relevant date,

whichever is the later,

or

(b) if a notice of termination under section 34 (b) is served in respect of the tenancy giving a period of notice that expires after the period of 4 years mentioned in paragraph (a), until the expiry of that period of notice.

(3) The condition mentioned in subsection (1) is that no notice of termination (giving the required period of notice) has been served in respect of the tenancy before the expiry of the period of 6 months mentioned in that subsection.

(4) Despite the fact that such a notice of termination has been so served, that condition shall be regarded as satisfied if the notice is subsequently withdrawn.

“Part 4 tenancy”— meaning of that expression.

29.—A tenancy continued in being by section 28 shall be known, and is in this Act referred to, as a “Part 4 tenancy”.

odds_on

MMAGirl wrote: »

Oh you are so close.
Now look up what a lease means in law. Particularly a fixed term lease.

Teach a man to fish.

Commercial leases are very different to Residential leases

TheOldHand

D3PO wrote: »

that is incorrect. IF and its unknown incorrect notice has been served then the notice is invalid and the OP could remain until correct notice has been served.

getting incorrect notice does not mean you can leave early.

Shorter notice terms may be given on the landlords site for breaches of tenancy agreements. I've heard of a few cases where a landlord should have given 2-3 months notice but only gave a month and the PRTB accepted the tenant moving out within a week after they found a place. It will require some research on my part, could take a while.

djimi

I would have thought that an invalid notice would simply be considered to be null and void, ie as if it didnt exist? Would it be considered to be a breach of tenancy agreement?

D3PO

TheOldHand wrote: »

Shorter notice terms may be given on the landlords site for breaches of tenancy agreements. I've heard of a few cases where a landlord should have given 2-3 months notice but only gave a month and the PRTB accepted the tenant moving out within a week after they found a place. It will require some research on my part, could take a while.

why are you going off on a tangent ? The OP asked a question could they leave early. The answer is no they cannot.

Even if what you say above has happened (which i dont believe) and you can find the tribunal detail with the decision that does not help the OP.

Lets forget all the specifics of tenancy law for the moment and look at this pragmatically and in what is likely to happen in a real world situation. The landlord in that instance look to withold the deposit or a portion of it under the guise that the tennant left early with rent outstanding. Now the OP can go to the PRTB and if what you say is correct will win the case and be awarded their deposit back when that is heard in 8-9 months time if there lucky.

how does that help them ? they have said they have no money to overlap rent or to pay a deposit on another property right now. So they are still no better off.

if you guys want to go off and discuss notice periods and part 4 start a new thread how about we stick to the original post in this one.

odds_on

TheOldHand wrote: »

Shorter notice terms may be given on the landlords site for breaches of tenancy agreements. I've heard of a few cases where a landlord should have given 2-3 months notice but only gave a month and the PRTB accepted the tenant moving out within a week after they found a place. It will require some research on my part, could take a while.

For breach of obligations, the usual notice period is 28 days (having been preceded by a letter advising of the breach and a request to remedy the breach).

In cases where there is risk of serious injury to persons or property (which is basically serious anti-social behaviour) a notice period of 7 days may be given.

Obviously, with a Part 4 tenancy eviction (using one of the grounds available to a landlord), this would depend on the length of time the tenant has been in occupation, with a maximum of 112 days.

No shorter periods than those set out in the RTA 2004 may be included in any agreement. However, at the time of the notice (issued by either landlord or tenant) the two parties may agree on a shorter or longer notice period (with, I think a maximum of 3 months)

MMAGirl

And with a fixed term lease you have your notice on day one. That's why it's called fixed term. That can change automatically by signing a new lease or by the landlord deciding to just let it run, then part 4 applies.
And if you don't agree try to find a case where the prtb stopped a landlord from taking back their property on expiry of a lease.

TheOldHand

D3PO wrote: »

why are you going off on a tangent ? The OP asked a question could they leave early. The answer is no they cannot.

Even if what you say above has happened (which i dont believe) and you can find the tribunal detail with the decision that does not help the OP.

Lets forget all the specifics of tenancy law for the moment and look at this pragmatically and in what is likely to happen in a real world situation. The landlord in that instance look to withold the deposit or a portion of it under the guise that the tennant left early with rent outstanding. Now the OP can go to the PRTB and if what you say is correct will win the case and be awarded their deposit back when that is heard in 8-9 months time if there lucky.

how does that help them ? they have said they have no money to overlap rent or to pay a deposit on another property right now. So they are still no better off.

if you guys want to go off and discuss notice periods and part 4 start a new thread how about we stick to the original post in this one.

You shouldn't speak definitively about things. And **** off with the modding, I don't see any mod titles to your name.

D3PO

TheOldHand wrote: »

You shouldn't speak definitively about things. And **** off with the modding, I don't see any mod titles to your name.

do you understand comprehension ? where have i said anything definitively except that the OP cannot leave early without agreement. That is FACT and if you disagree prove it. (Im telling you that you cannot) All your posts are in the context of the opening post waffle.

none of them have a bearing on the ops prediciment. Its just a load of pointless part 4 discussion that has no place in this thread.

oh and a bit of advise to you as a newbie who only signed up today. Cut the abuse unless you want a short lived time on this forum. Thats not modding its fact.

TheOldHand

The answer is no.

There.

D3PO

TheOldHand wrote: »

There.

prove me wrong so. :rolleyes:

The_Conductor

You're skating on thin ice- esp. using language like that.
Please read the forum charter, if you intend to continue posting here.

To everyone- its not hard to remain civil towards one another- if you disagree with what someone posts- refute the post without attacking the poster.

No further warnings- next person who acts the Mick will get a posting holiday.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

The_Conductor

D3PO wrote: »

prove me wrong so. :rolleyes:

Quit with the tit-for-tat, you're not going to achieve anything other than point scoring against one another- and if you want to do that- please take it elsewhere.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

Jo King

A fixed term lease does not mean that Part 4 rights do not become applicable after 6 months. It is not permitted to contract out of the mandatory provisions of the RTA and so a fixed term lease cannot oust Part 4. Agreeing to a tenancy for a year does not mean that the parties contract out of their part 4 rights.
There is no case of a landlord walking in the door on the expiry of a fixed term and taking possession without the tenant in occupation agreeing. There is no case where a landlord made a successful claim for overholding without having issued a termination notice.

sunnysoutheast

Jo King wrote: »

A fixed term lease does not mean that Part 4 rights do not become applicable after 6 months. It is not permitted to contract out of the mandatory provisions of the RTA and so a fixed term lease cannot oust Part 4. Agreeing to a tenancy for a year does not mean that the parties contract out of their part 4 rights.
There is no case of a landlord walking in the door on the expiry of a fixed term and taking possession without the tenant in occupation agreeing. There is no case where a landlord made a successful claim for overholding without having issued a termination notice.

Can the landlord issue the termination notice to coincide with the end of the one year fixed lease, or can the termination notice only be issued once the fixed term has expired?

That is the question for which I don't recall ever seeing a definitive, traceable answer. Many people have an opinion but that is not the same thing.

Effectively, therefore, a landlord should not sign a new lease with a prospective tenant until the in-situ tenant has physically vacated the property, due to the risk of overholding under part IV?

djimi

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Can the landlord issue the termination notice to coincide with the end of the one year fixed lease, or can the termination notice only be issued once the fixed term has expired?

That is the question for which I don't recall ever seeing a definitive, traceable answer. Many people have an opinion but that is not the same thing.

Effectively, therefore, a landlord should not sign a new lease with a prospective tenant until the in-situ tenant has physically vacated the property, due to the risk of overholding under part IV?

There seems to be some confusion over this one. I think I remember reading even Threshold werent entirely sure of the answer. My personal feeling is that notice cannot be issued during a fixed term lease, but that is literally just my opinion based on how I read the law. Id love to see a definitive answer to this though.

TheOldHand

I can't see any reason why notice could not be issued during the fixed term. The landlord has acted within the terms of notice required to end a part four tenancy based on reasons and notice periods.

djimi

To be honest I could see arguements for and against either side of that particular debate; its why Id love to see a definitive ruling one way or another.

The_Conductor

Your (and indeed your landlord's) rights in a fixed term lease, are in addition to, but do not supercede, any rights you have under the 2004 Act. By signing a Fixed Term Lease- you are signing a contract between you and the landlord, and subject to the terms and conditions of the specific lease, may or may not have break clauses in the lease, specifying how and when either party can vacate the lease, outside of the natural elapse of the lease.

If you break a fixed term lease, or your landlord does, outside of any break clauses- it is a civil matter between you and your landlord, and while either party could compel the other party to court, and indeed have a judgement registered against them- its incredibly rare with residential tenancies (very common with commercial leases though).

So- you are signing up to obligations separate to, and in addition to, any obligations or rights you may have under the 2004 Act, when you sign a fixed term lease. Yes, its legally binding. How enforceable is it- in practical terms, its rarely worth anyone's while and trouble to initiate legal proceedings, and its only very rarely done.