Slow Play Question

DeanAustin

If there is another thread like this, apologies, just point me to it coz I couldn't find one.

I often find myself under pressure from the group behind me. I never thought I was excessively slow but if I'm usually the common denominator then I sort of have to look at myself. So I did at the weekend.

I usually take 20-25 seconds over a shot from the start of my pre-shot routine to striking the ball. It's the same whether it's a drive, iron or putt. I do the same thing no matter how short the putt is (aside from tap ins) because if I deviate, I find myself missing 1-3 footers. However, is this too long over a ball?

I do try to walk fast between shots but there is nothing worse than having people standing waiting behind you. It's awful for them and it's awful for me and my group.

BigChap1759

DeanAustin wrote: »

If there is another thread like this, apologies, just point me to it coz I couldn't find one.

I often find myself under pressure from the group behind me. I never thought I was excessively slow but if I'm usually the common denominator then I sort of have to look at myself. So I did at the weekend.

I usually take 20-25 seconds over a shot from the start of my pre-shot routine to striking the ball. It's the same whether it's a drive, iron or putt. I do the same thing no matter how short the putt is (aside from tap ins) because if I deviate, I find myself missing 1-3 footers. However, is this too long over a ball?

I do try to walk fast between shots but there is nothing worse than having people standing waiting behind you. It's awful for them and it's awful for me and my group.

IMO 25 secs standing over the ball seems like a long time and won't do anything to help keep you loose but the main issue usually is not time over the ball but general fannying around - use the time walking to the ball to decide what club you're going to play and how to play it so that you are ready to hit when you reach your ball.

donalg1

Are you group keeping up with the group ahead or losing holes on them, I look at it in a way that if I tee off on the first with a group ahead on the say the 1st green, them I should be teeing off on pretty much every hole when they are around the green on the same hole. If they have gone a few holes ahead then maybe I am too slow although if there is nobody behind me then who cares.

If however the group behind are standing around waiting to take every shot then I would let them through, it could be a case that they are fast players and not one of me being slow, so I would much rather they go ahead and leave me play at my pace and take the pressure off.

not yet

I can tell you if you think it's 20-25 seconds then it is closer to a minute.

If your a four ball and nothing ahead of you it should not take longer then 4 hours to get round, 4.15 at a push. I know its annoying when you see groups starting to back up behind you, but all I can say is if you keep up with the group ahead of you nobody can give you stick.

DeanAustin

not yet wrote: »

I can tell you if you think it's 20-25 seconds then it is closer to a minute.

If your a four ball and nothing ahead of you it should not take longer then 4 hours to get round, 4.15 at a push. I know its annoying when you see groups starting to back up behind you, but all I can say is if you keep up with the group ahead of you nobody can give you stick.

I had thought it was longer but actually recorded myself at the weekend to see how long I took and it's genuinely 20-25 seconds.

My group doesn't usually lose holes, as such, that often but there is often a gap - the group ahead is on the green as we're teeing off on a par 4 or 5 type of thing.

donalg1

Well once you are keeping up with the group ahead there is nothing anyone can say to you, if you did let those behind you play through they will only keep up with the group ahead so you will in affect just be swapping positions with them with no benefit to the other group at all. That is unless of course they catch and play through the group originally ahead of yours.

Benicetomonty

If the group behind you are waiting and you aren't, that's slow play. Doesn't matter if they're on the same hole. If you notice people behind you, your job is to speed up until you're on top of the group ahead and blame them, or let the guys behind through. There's no other way of looking at it.

I also agree that the 25 seconds over the shot probably isn't the problem, far more likely to be general farting around between shots, leaving bags on the wrong side of the green, chatting instead of walking to your ball directly when yours is left and mate's is right... etc.

nomunnnofun

I have a friend who gets a bit of stick for being a slow player. He has the slowest practice and real swing I've ever seen. I actually timed him and another friend one day on the sly with the hopes of showing him later how slow he actually was, but when I looked at it overall, he wasn't that bad. The 2nd fella used to take 2-3 practice swings at a regular pace which added up to the same overall time. I suppose the fact that we could almost fall asleep watching him play made us all think he was holding us up. As others have said, 20-25 seconds isn't bad, just make sure that your club is selected and you are ready to go when it is your turn.

BTW - Didn't tell him the outcome of my secret experiment as I enjoy giving him stick about it too much to let go.:D

Arsenium

I have the same routine every time on every shot apart from putts. I dont think it's slow although I havent timed it.

Putting is a different case though. I use the time before my turn to line it up and get ready to play. But...and I know this myself...I pause for a while over the putt before playing it. I find if I dont do it I am not committed to the putt and I may aswell not putt at all as my mind is all over the shop. One day my brother was manning the flag for me, I looked up and he had removed it and I blamed him for my bad putt. His reply was that he had to move as he was about to fall asleep :-(

It's the only aspect of my game that I think could be considered slow. Everything else is fine (in my opinion). And my argument is that its what you do between your shots that contributes to slow play instead of time spent on the shot.

Bags on the wrong side of the green are SO annoying. As is pausing for a minute to complete a story or a joke.....Agghh !!

FixdePitchmark

nomunnnofun wrote: »

I have a friend who gets a bit of stick for being a slow player. He has the slowest practice and real swing I've ever seen. I actually timed him and another friend one day on the sly with the hopes of showing him later how slow he actually was, but when I looked at it overall, he wasn't that bad. The 2nd fella used to take 2-3 practice swings at a regular pace which added up to the same overall time. I suppose the fact that we could almost fall asleep watching him play made us all think he was holding us up. As others have said, 20-25 seconds isn't bad, just make sure that your club is selected and you are ready to go when it is your turn.

BTW - Didn't tell him the outcome of my secret experiment as I enjoy giving him stick about it too much to let go.:D

Couldn't play with them. Sorry.

DeanAustin

Thanks for the responses guys. Don't think I'm a massive offender on the bag on the wrong side but might be on the not choosing a club or lining my putt up when the other guy is hitting.

Will keep a close eye this weekend and see how I get on.

FixdePitchmark

DeanAustin wrote: »

Thanks for the responses guys. Don't think I'm a massive offender on the bag on the wrong side but might be on the not choosing a club or lining my putt up when the other guy is hitting.

Will keep a close eye this weekend and see how I get on.

Dean -
You will never be slow if you think about your shot and club while other player is playing.
Be ready.
A big problem in golf.

BigChap1759

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Dean -
You will never be slow if you think about your shot and club while other player is playing.
Be ready.
A big problem in golf.

Amen! Especially at the moment with winter rules the number of guys I see waiting until the last guy has played before marking their ball, cleaning it, looking which club to hit............aaarrrghhh:mad:

Arsenium

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Amen! Especially at the moment with winter rules the number of guys I see waiting until the last guy has played before marking their ball, cleaning it, looking which club to hit............aaarrrghhh:mad:

Or one more really annoying one....the guy who plays first (in a 4 ball for example) stands with his driver still out of the head cover and the bag until everyone has hit, then has to get the cover and put it on, then get the driver back into the bag and eventually is ready to move on, probably last of the group when he should be the first one ready to go after the last guy has played !!

charlieIRL

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Amen! Especially at the moment with winter rules the number of guys I see waiting until the last guy has played before marking their ball, cleaning it, looking which club to hit............aaarrrghhh:mad:

Rob Lee was giving out about Hunter Mahan doing exact same think in the WGC last weekend. Was quite animated about it too.

Arsenium wrote: »

Or one more really annoying one....the guy who plays first (in a 4 ball for example) stands with his driver still out of the head cover and the bag until everyone has hit, then has to get the cover and put it on, then get the driver back into the bag and eventually is ready to move on, probably last of the group when he should be the first one ready to go after the last guy has played !!

Maybe you don't want to put other lads off their swing by fumbling around with a headcover and putting club back into bag making noise??!!

BoardsMember

charlieIRL wrote: »

Maybe you don't want to put other lads off their swing by fumbling around with a headcover and putting club back into bag making noise??!!

Yes. Also, your bag/trolly might be behind you, so you dont leave the tee until all have driven off.

ssbob

Lads I wrote a blog on this a few weeks ago as it is something that really annoys me:

http://jamesenglishgolf.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/slow-play/

Arsenium

BoardsMember wrote: »

Yes. Also, your bag/trolly might be behind you, so you dont leave the tee until all have driven off.

If there are 4 guys in a group and you are teeing first, there is ample opportunity to get the club back into the bag without putting your partner off. As soon as the last guy tees, you are ready to go. It may only make a small difference but over the course of the round it adds up.

DeanAustin

ssbob wrote: »

Lads I wrote a blog on this a few weeks ago as it is something that really annoys me:

http://jamesenglishgolf.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/slow-play/

Were the estimated savings educated guesses or was there any science behind them?

BoardsMember

Arsenium wrote: »

If there are 4 guys in a group and you are teeing first, there is ample opportunity to get the club back into the bag without putting your partner off. As soon as the last guy tees, you are ready to go. It may only make a small difference but over the course of the round it adds up.

I beg to differ, I dont think it is ok to stand behind the guy playing his shot, it is common courtesy to stand ball side of the player playing the ball. Also, I haven't noticed people leaving the t-box until the last person has hit, actually I'm not sure its the thing to do at all. I am close to psychotic about keeping place/being speedy on the course, by the way.

ssbob

DeanAustin wrote: »

Were the estimated savings educated guesses or was there any science behind them?

Educated guesses based on timing friends unknowingly over the last couple of months. I even erred on the coservative side!

Arsenium

BoardsMember wrote: »

I beg to differ, I dont think it is ok to stand behind the guy playing his shot, it is common courtesy to stand ball side of the player playing the ball. Also, I haven't noticed people leaving the t-box until the last person has hit, actually I'm not sure its the thing to do at all. I am close to psychotic about keeping place/being speedy on the course, by the way.

Fair enough. I struggle to see where the courtesy bit comes in though. I have quite often been asked to stand behind a player to help track their ball flight, particularly in early morning sun or late evening sun.

Thinking about it I actually think I'd prefer to have someone behind me than directly across from me as I hit my tee shot, much in the same way I dont like anyone in the vicinity of the hole as I am putting. But that's just me.

I just cant see the logic of standing with your club in your hand long after you have teed off, delaying the pace of moving up the course. I dont find it discourteous to move to your bag and place your club back.

SnowDrifts

OP, first of all, fair play for trying to find out if you are indeed a slow player and attempting to fix it.

I really do think 25 seconds is too long after you have a club in your hand. I would generally be less than 10 seconds - one practice swing and hit. I find that if I take too much time, I think too much and as a consequence, the shot will not be good.

So if we combine our times for lets say, 85 strokes, I would spend circa 14 min hitting shots whilst you would be closer to 35 min. That is 20 minutes slower. Now I realize I am a fast player and that's not for everyone but you can see how you might lose time if I was in front of you.

Some things to keep in mind perhaps to speed up play:

> Maybe reduce the amount of practice swings you take.
> If possible (without being a distraction), read putts before your up so when it is your turn, you will be nearly ready.
> Have ball and tee ready in your hand whilst on the teebox before its your turn.
> Know who is up, if it is your honour, don't wait to be told "you're up".

pinseeker

Arsenium wrote: »

I just cant see the logic of standing with your club in your hand long after you have teed off, delaying the pace of moving up the course. I dont find it discourteous to move to your bag and place your club back.

I have to say Arsenium im with BoardsMember on this one, the worst thing that id have thought you could do on the tee box if you hit first is to be off moving around and at your bag. standing ball side and waiting for all to tee off is something that i would have taken as the done thing.

There is so much more that is causing slow play than what happens on the tee.

donalg1

Arsenium wrote: »

Fair enough. I struggle to see where the courtesy bit comes in though. I have quite often been asked to stand behind a player to help track their ball flight, particularly in early morning sun or late evening sun.

Thinking about it I actually think I'd prefer to have someone behind me than directly across from me as I hit my tee shot, much in the same way I dont like anyone in the vicinity of the hole as I am putting. But that's just me.

I just cant see the logic of standing with your club in your hand long after you have teed off, delaying the pace of moving up the course. I dont find it discourteous to move to your bag and place your club back.

Bring your head cover to the tee with you and put that on while the other lads are walking up to take their shots obviously not during thier routine or while taking a shot, even wait and do it while their ball is in the air.

But I wouldnt say walking to your bag and putting your club away is acceptable at all, if the head cover is on it should take no more than 2 seconds to put it in your bag anyway so there is no need to do it before the others have teed off. That would just annoy me if someone I was playing with kept doing that it would be like they were saying to me right I have played my shot now hurry up will ya so I can get going to my next shot, when they should be offering me the same courtesy I gave them during their tee shot.

charlieIRL

I have come across a good few golfers who do not like people standing behind them when taking a tee shot, I always stand to the side. I also leave my headcover beside me at the tee box and pick it up and have it on my driver before the next person is even on the tee box but I won't go near my bag until everyone has hit their balls.

Arsenium

charlieIRL wrote: »

I have come across a good few golfers who do not like people standing behind them when taking a tee shot, I always stand to the side. I also leave my headcover beside me at the tee box and pick it up and have it on my driver before the next person is even on the tee box but I won't go near my bag until everyone has hit their balls.

Beside / behind. Personal preference. Maybe it's a part of the etiquette, I dont know. I myself stand about 3 -4 paces to the right of the ball and usually about 4 - 5 paces back. I wouldnt stand directly to one side of a player. I'd prefer to give them a bit of room.

If you watch the golf tonight on TV I bet you will see some player hit their tee shot and before the ball hits the top of it's flight the other pro will be walking down the fairway. Ok they will have given their club to the caddy who will have put the cover on the club and put it into the bag, and off they go. Hardly discourteous that the club had been put away.

If it boils down to leaving the tee box and courtesy I can see your point in that regard. My original (and still) main point of complaint was when the last guy has teed off, put his club away and is leaving the tee box while the player who played first is still putting the cover back on his club.

Pints?

Your place on the course is immediately behind the group in front, not immediately in front of the group behind.

For Paws

Just reminds of the number of times I've been ready to play, when another member of my group, having played and got his drive safely away, is now in relaxation mode and starts chatting away. Then notices that he's disturbing me and says 'Sorry was your playing disturbing my talking'. Ho Ho Ho

GreeBo

Arsenium wrote: »

Beside / behind. Personal preference. Maybe it's a part of the etiquette, I dont know. I myself stand about 3 -4 paces to the right of the ball and usually about 4 - 5 paces back. I wouldnt stand directly to one side of a player. I'd prefer to give them a bit of room.

If you stand directly opposite someone you are out of their line of sight as they are looking down at the ball, if you are behind (to the right for a right handed player) at all then you need to be further away as they will see you in their peripheral vision.

If you are standing behind my line of flight I will ask you to move as I will see you during my backswing and its off putting, as Im expecting you to move.

This is especially true on putts... (for me)

Arsenium

GreeBo wrote: »

If you stand directly opposite someone you are out of their line of sight as they are looking down at the ball, if you are behind (to the right for a right handed player) at all then you need to be further away as they will see you in their peripheral vision.

If you are standing behind my line of flight I will ask you to move as I will see you during my backswing and its off putting, as Im expecting you to move.

This is especially true on putts... (for me)

Same here on putts. I need it to be just me and the hole (I tried to find a better way to phrase that, honestly !!)

charlieIRL

especially on putts, hate having someone within my line of sight as the slightest movement would "putt" you off

Oilbeefhooked!

Kudos to OP for trying to address / analyze his speed of play.
My view would be that the very fact that you are aware/concerned about possibly being a bit on the slow side can only be a good thing.
As in my experience the real golfsloths out there holding up courses countrywide -
have either zero awareness of whats going on ahead/behind them ,or simpy dont care what else is happening ,as they think their own 18 holes are all that matters!!
So yeah take on board all the advice given and you will be fine.
Ill reiterate a previous point that i agree is all you ever need - BE READY!
If you are ready for your shot when your turn comes and you walk at a decent pace between them, you will never be the problem whether your preshot routine is 10 secs or 25 secs.
Its when a 25 sec preshot routine golfer is combined with 20 secs headscratching picking club,10 secs assessing target, 20 secs retrieving bag from wrong side of green etc, then combined with slow pace of walking that the problems occur.

GreeBo

donalg1 wrote: »

Well once you are keeping up with the group ahead there is nothing anyone can say to you, if you did let those behind you play through they will only keep up with the group ahead so you will in affect just be swapping positions with them with no benefit to the other group at all.

I wouldnt fully agree with this, otherwise a couple of slow groups in the morning delay the whole course. Your job is not just to keep up with the group in front, you also need to pay attention to how long its taking and if you are slow, speed up and put the guys in front under pressure to also speed up.

There is too much danger of everyone slowing down to the slowest group and golf takes 5 hours, no gaps on the course, but everyone is out there for aeons and the game as a whole suffers for it.

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

I wouldnt fully agree with this, otherwise a couple of slow groups in the morning delay the whole course. Your job is not just to keep up with the group in front, you also need to pay attention to how long its taking and if you are slow, speed up and put the guys in front under pressure to also speed up.

There is too much danger of everyone slowing down to the slowest group and golf takes 5 hours, no gaps on the course, but everyone is out there for aeons and the game as a whole suffers for it.

I'm sorry Greebo but how can you not agree with what donalg1 has said? If you are keeping up with the group in front there is absolutely no point in leaving a group behind you through if you don't want to.

I know you are on about putting pressure on the group in front but donalg1 wasn't. Just look at what he said again and I fail to see how you could not "fully agree" with it

GreeBo

denisoc16 wrote: »

I'm sorry Greebo but how can you not agree with what donalg1 has said? If you are keeping up with the group in front there is absolutely no point in leaving a group behind you through if you don't want to.

I know you are on about putting pressure on the group in front but donalg1 wasn't. Just look at what he said again and I fail to see how you could not "fully agree" with it

I didnt mention letting anyone through in my post, that wasnt my point at all...

He said "Once you are keeping up with the group in front there is nothing anyone can say to you"
I disagree.

You can be slow as fcuk and still up with the equally slow as fcuk group in front. The fellas behind you have a right to tell you to hurry the fcuk up in this case as your group is the only group that can put pressure on the guys in front.

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

I didnt mention letting anyone through in my post, that wasnt my point at all...

He said "Once you are keeping up with the group in front there is nothing anyone can say to you"
I disagree.

You can be slow as fcuk and still up with the equally slow as fcuk group in front. The fellas behind you have a right to tell you to hurry the fcuk up in this case as your group is the only group that can put pressure on the guys in front.

Look, i'm not getting into an argument because I know where that will finish. In my opinion it is the job of the ranger(if one is employed) or a phonecall to the clubhouse to sort this particular case out. My point was, and still is, that donalg1 was correct in what he said and you disagreed with him. His point is correct. If you want to "tell a group to hurry the fcuk up" when they themselves are being held up then that is your prerogotive(sp). I don't believe it's the correct thing to do to "tell a group to hurry the fcuk up" when I know they aren't the cause of the slow play.

However, disagreeing with someone who has said something that is widely believed to be the correct procedure as regards pace of play(ie your place on the course is directly behing the group in front of you etc etc)is not fair, in my humble opinion. You might have your own way of approaching these things but donalg1 was right and correct.

stockdam

The main way to speed up as has been mentioned is to always be ready to hit. Too many people wait until their playing partner hits before they even start to prepare for the shot. Providing it is safe to do so then walk to your ball, size up the distance, decide on your shot, decide on your club. As soon as your playing partner has hit then you should be ready to address the ball.

There are other ways to speed up but the one above is the main way. If you keep your ball on the fairway then you'll not be slow if you prepare for your shot as early as you can.

FixdePitchmark

Greebo ,

I know what you are getting at. But if somebody told somebody to "hurry the **** up". For case above. Id imagine there would be war.

There are clubs i know of that. You could get a dig for that.

It would be along the lines "ill show you to hurry the **** up".

onlyfinewine

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Greebo ,

I know what you are getting at. But if somebody told somebody to "hurry the **** up". For case above. Id imagine there would be war.

There are clubs i know of that. You could get a dig for that.

It would be along the lines "ill show you to hurry the **** up".

As a friend of mine quotes "there is no point being a thick ucnt unless you show it!"

And we have seen plenty of instances recently, which show that it's true..

BigChap1759

GreeBo wrote: »

I didnt mention letting anyone through in my post, that wasnt my point at all...

He said "Once you are keeping up with the group in front there is nothing anyone can say to you"
I disagree.

You can be slow as fcuk and still up with the equally slow as fcuk group in front. The fellas behind you have a right to tell you to hurry the fcuk up in this case as your group is the only group that can put pressure on the guys in front.

So what is your advice in this instance - ask the group in front to hurry up, they don't what then???

BigChap1759

onlyfinewine wrote: »

As a friend of mine quotes "there is no point being a thick ucnt unless you show it!"

And we have seen plenty of instances recently, which show that it's true..

Fine wine :rolleyes:

ssbob

Guys stay on topic and I don't think there is any need to bring crude language into this thread.

GreeBo

denisoc16 wrote: »

Look, i'm not getting into an argument because I know where that will finish. In my opinion it is the job of the ranger(if one is employed) or a phonecall to the clubhouse to sort this particular case out. My point was, and still is, that donalg1 was correct in what he said and you disagreed with him. His point is correct. If you want to "tell a group to hurry the fcuk up" when they themselves are being held up then that is your prerogotive(sp). I don't believe it's the correct thing to do to "tell a group to hurry the fcuk up" when I know they aren't the cause of the slow play.

However, disagreeing with someone who has said something that is widely believed to be the correct procedure as regards pace of play(ie your place on the course is directly behing the group in front of you etc etc)is not fair, in my humble opinion. You might have your own way of approaching these things but donalg1 was right and correct.

I really dont see what your problem is

I disagree with what he said regarding once you are behind the group in front you are absolved of all blame for being slow.

Also, if they are not pressuring a slow group in front then they are the "cause" of slow play. If you play at the same slow pace as the slow group in front then you are slow!

GreeBo

BigChap1759 wrote: »

So what is your advice in this instance - ask the group in front to hurry up, they don't what then???

Well I'd say its the same issue if the group in front dont let you through in a "normal" scenario?

I'd just play my normal pace (which is not slow, but not crazy fast) and put them under pressure to speed up which will in turn put the first slow group under pressure to speed up.

I just believe that if people dont force all the slow players to speed up then the problem doesnt get any better for anyone.

donalg1

I dont see the point in asking the group ahead of me to hurry up when they have another group in front of them. Sure if they were to hurry up they would have to either play over the heads of the group in front or just walk past them on the fairway pretending like they arent there?!

If someone says to me hurry up and there is a group in front I wouldnt be short of telling them where to go. Or I would just ask them in all there infinite wisdom where they would like me to hurry up to. Or I might even let them through my group and spend the rest of the round telling them to hurry up.

As long as I am keeping up with the group ahead I dont see a problem if they are slow then obviously I would like them to let me through and the others behind, if they refuse then the marshall can do his job and tell them to get a move on. I dont fell any pressure from groups behind as long as I am keeping up with the group ahead.

BigChap1759

Have to say I also disagree that the guys behind have a right to tell you to hurry up if you're right up the erse of the group in front - what else can you do

donalg1

My point was that if for example I am playing a Par 4 and have teed off and am now stood on the fairway waiting to hit my shot to the green, but am waiting because there is a group on the green holing out I am not going to start worrying if a group appears on the tee behind me.

And if they tell me to hurry up I would just stand there shaking my head and asking them where they want me to go.

Miley Byrne

ssbob wrote: »

Guys stay on topic and I don't think there is any need to bring crude language into this thread.

GreeBo wrote: »

You can be slow as fcuk and still up with the equally slow as fcuk group in front. The fellas behind you have a right to tell you to hurry the fcuk up in this case as your group is the only group that can put pressure on the guys in front.

.

ssbob

denisoc16 wrote: »

.

My post was partly aimed at Greebo, ye have asked for us to moderate the moderators and that is what I was doing here.

BoardsMember

GreeBo wrote: »

I didnt mention letting anyone through in my post, that wasnt my point at all...

He said "Once you are keeping up with the group in front there is nothing anyone can say to you"
I disagree.

You can be slow as fcuk and still up with the equally slow as fcuk group in front. The fellas behind you have a right to tell you to hurry the fcuk up in this case as your group is the only group that can put pressure on the guys in front.

This is just nonsense. If I am keeping up with the people in front (call it putting pressure on them if you like), I'm doing all I can and nobody behind me is entitled to tell me to hurry up. Suggesting otherwise is plain wrong.