Should Paddy Jackson be dropped for the France game?

legendary.xix

I think the fly-half position needs it's own thread. Jackson's performance on Sunday was dreadful in respect of his kicking duties. I'm a supporter of Kidney and am not calling for his head but could not believe the decision to go with Jackson.

Despite Jackson's terrible kicking, it's not a foregone conclusion that he will be dropped. While not likely, I could envisage Ulster's Rabo game going in a direction that the might have to overlook Jackson for the kicks at a crucial moment in the game.

Does Jackson's chance of starting against France hinge on how he plays for Ulster this weekend?

almighty1

Yes and bring in Madigan.

awec

I'd start him again. He was great in every aspect except kicking.

Madigan on the bench.

Also need to get over our obsession of the number 10 having to kick.

thomond2006

legendary.xix wrote: »

I think the fly-half position needs it's own thread. Jackson's performance on Sunday was dreadful in respect of his kicking duties. I'm a supporter of Kidney and am not calling for his head but could not believe the decision to go with Jackson.

Despite Jackson's terrible kicking, it's not a foregone conclusion that he will be dropped. While not likely, I could envisage Ulster's Rabo game going in a direction that the might have to overlook Jackson for the kicks at a crucial moment in the game.

Does Jackson's chance of starting against France hinge on how he plays for Ulster this weekend?

What flyhalves do you want to see as the starter and replacement?

Risteard

No unless he's trying Madigan.

.ak

Keep Jackson, unless Sexton comes back into the frame.

Beery Eyed

If it's because Sexton is fit, or he wants to reward Madigan with his excellent form, then yes.

If it's because ROG is deemed as the "safer" option, then no. Definitely not.

legendary.xix

awec wrote: »

I'd start him again. He was great in every aspect except kicking.

Madigan on the bench.

Also need to get over our obsession of the number 10 having to kick.

I wouldn't call it an obsession. It's still common enough place for the no. 10 to be kicker though many examples are there of others e.g. France and Parra.

Based on history, it's natural for a number 10 who is taking kicks to be judged against other's who have worn the no. 10 jersey.

.ak

legendary.xix wrote: »

I wouldn't call it an obsession. It's still common enough place for the no. 10 to be kicker though many examples are there of others e.g. France and Parra.

Based on history, it's natural for a number 10 who is taking kicks to be judged against other's who have worn the no. 10 jersey.

Yeah, but most teams also have capable kickers across the backline, so that when your first selected goal kicker doesn't produce the goods or is injured you can rely on someone else on the starting team.

It isn't a pre-requisite part of the 10's repertoire to kick at goal. They just tend to be the best at it because of their skill with the boot. Ireland does have an obsession with not realizing other players can kick too.

When was the last time we used someone outside of the outhalf to kick at goal? Mike Gibson?

Glass Prison 1214

Jackson shouldn't be dropped, bar his kicking I thought he played quite well. It was unreasonable to expect him to take the kicks anyway, Bring McFadden onto the wing and we'll be grand.

Hippo

awec wrote: »

I'd start him again. He was great in every aspect except kicking.

Madigan on the bench.

Also need to get over our obsession of the number 10 having to kick.

Who's going to take the kicks then? I'm not arguing against PJ's inclusion, I think this now-discredited coaching ticket should persist with him, but someone has to be goalkicker.

.ak

Hippo wrote: »

Who's going to take the kicks then? I'm not arguing against PJ's inclusion, I think this now-discredited coaching ticket should persist with him, but someone has to be goalkicker.

You could bring in McFadden. Kearney is also a decent goal kicker, as is Murray.

To be honest, I'd be very annoyed if I found out these guys weren't practicing kicks during skills training.

Although having said that, maybe they are, and maybe they're just ****e. We don't know.

awec

legendary.xix wrote: »

I wouldn't call it an obsession. It's still common enough place for the no. 10 to be kicker though many examples are there of others e.g. France and Parra.

Based on history, it's natural for a number 10 who is taking kicks to be judged against other's who have worn the no. 10 jersey.

It is an obsession. There is no rule that the 10 has to be your place kicker.

We have this notion of fielding only 1 place kicker at a time. Stuart Hogg took a penalty for Scotland on Sunday for example. Laidlaw kicked their penalties. Ireland can't (or won't) do that.

It's something that's wrong in our setup. As soon as players turn pro it seems unless they are a 10 they drop the idea of ever kicking. That needs to change. If you were a recognised kicker before you turned pro then you continue to practice it, even if you'll only ever be a backup option.

thebaz

I've never been a huge fan of Jackson , he's young and may develop , BUT right now he is way off a test quality 10 - Madigan or PJ for me

totallegend

legendary.xix wrote: »

I wouldn't call it an obsession. It's still common enough place for the no. 10 to be kicker though many examples are there of others e.g. France and Parra.

Based on history, it's natural for a number 10 who is taking kicks to be judged against other's who have worn the no. 10 jersey.

Lee Halfpenny, Greg Laidlaw...

It's bananas to be picking an out half solely on the basis of goal kicks when he is so crucial to so many other aspects of the game. It would make much more sense to pick a more peripheral player like wing or full back on the strength of his goal kicks if it means getting the right 10 on the pitch.

Can anyone remember an Irish team in which the goal kicker was someone other than the out-half? (I know the likes of Murphy and O'Leary took kicks but I'm talking about the designated kicker)

legendary.xix

thomond2006 wrote: »

What flyhalves do you want to see as the starter and replacement?

It's a hard call. I didn't think O'Gara should have been dropped for Jackson. Madigan was the only player I'd have seen ahead of O'Gara for Sunday if a change was needed.

.ak wrote: »

Keep Jackson, unless Sexton comes back into the frame.

Having gone for O'Gara at the outset of the championship, I think Kidney should stick with him unless a player is playing himself into contention with his province. Jackson has not with Ulster. It should be over to a player in another province.

Beery Eyed wrote: »

If it's because Sexton is fit, or he wants to reward Madigan with his excellent form, then yes.

If it's because ROG is deemed as the "safer" option, then no. Definitely not.

Beery Eyed wrote: »

If it's because Sexton is fit, or he wants to reward Madigan with his excellent form, then yes.

If it's because ROG is deemed as the "safer" option, then no. Definitely not.

If Jackson's doesn't nail his kicks on Friday and Madigan is across the water in Wales the same evening, there'll be a bit more of a clamour for Madigan to get the call.

awec

totallegend wrote: »

Lee Halfpenny, Greg Laidlaw...

It's bananas to be picking an out half solely on the basis of goal kicks when he is so crucial to so many other aspects of the game. It would make much more sense to pick a more peripheral player like wing or full back on the strength of his goal kicks if it means getting the right 10 on the pitch.

Can anyone remember an Irish team in which the goal kicker was someone other than the out-half? (I know the likes of Murphy and O'Leary took kicks but I'm talking about the designated kicker)

I think this is where the notion of out half = kicker comes from.

ROG especially, aspects of his game were compensated for by the rest of the team purely because he was incredibly good with his feet. Like it or not, I think for a lot of people the notion of an out-half in Ireland is personified in ROG almost. In my opinion.

irishbucsfan

Jackson should start. McFadden included in case he gets the kicking wobbles again, but Jackson should take the first one.

How many kicks gas Kearney actually taken in hos career at senior level? It cant be more than 5!?

CIARAN_BOYLE

.ak wrote: »

You could bring in McFadden. Kearney is also a decent goal kicker, as is Murray.

To be honest, I'd be very annoyed if I found out these guys weren't practicing kicks during skills training.

Although having said that, maybe they are, and maybe they're just ****e. We don't know.

To be honest I'm not sure if they are. I've asked a few people who have dropped into the odd training session in UCD when the kickers were out on their own practising and Sexton, Madigan, Nacewa, McFadden and a few of the younger lads tend to be practising but no Kearney.

It may be that he does it less or maybe he just doesn't do it. I don't know.

CIARAN_BOYLE

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Jackson should start. McFadden included in case he gets the kicking wobbles again, but Jackson should take the first one.

How many kicks gas Kearney actually taken in hos career at senior level? It cant be more than 5!?

I don't know how many he has kicked, but he has scored 8 (7 for Leinster and one for Ireland)

dtpc191991

.ak wrote: »

Yeah, but most teams also have capable kickers across the backline, so that when your first selected goal kicker doesn't produce the goods or is injured you can rely on someone else on the starting team.

It isn't a pre-requisite part of the 10's repertoire to kick at goal. They just tend to be the best at it because of their skill with the boot. Ireland does have an obsession with not realizing other players can kick too.

When was the last time we used someone outside of the outhalf to kick at goal? Mike Gibson?

Can Marshall place kick?

bilston

legendary.xix wrote: »

I think the fly-half position needs it's own thread. Jackson's performance on Sunday was dreadful in respect of his kicking duties. I'm a supporter of Kidney and am not calling for his head but could not believe the decision to go with Jackson.

Despite Jackson's terrible kicking, it's not a foregone conclusion that he will be dropped. While not likely, I could envisage Ulster's Rabo game going in a direction that the might have to overlook Jackson for the kicks at a crucial moment in the game.

Does Jackson's chance of starting against France hinge on how he plays for Ulster this weekend?

He missed three kicks at goal pal. One hit the post. Was it good enough? No of course not but he isn't the first kicker to miss three place kicks in a test match. I'm sure both Sexton and O'Gara can testify to that.

The rest of his game was perfectly fine. I actually find it unbelievable that some people even bring up his knock on in the first minute of the game at all, it barely deserves a passing reference. Does everyone else's knock ons get brought up? Even the kick to touch which didn't make it was within a yard of being a 5 metre lineout to Ireland. One missed touch finder in the whole game for a 21 year old on debut isn't hardly a disaster. His passing was crisp, his touch finders were good, he played the game on the gainline and brought his runners onto the ball very well, he didn't give an inch in defence, indeed he was even credited with a turnover for a choke tackle in the first half.

If you break it down and actually look at it then surely you have to say that for a 21 year old under huge scrutiny on debut he played well.

Should he be dropped for France? No absolutely not, the only circumstance where he shouldn't be in the team is if Sexton is available, in which case he obviously returns.

leeroybrown

We should start Jackson again. There's no point in swapping in Madigan or Keatley when neither has been given test level game time. Apart from the place kicks and one touchline miss under pressure he didn't do badly. ROG is past it full stop.

On the point of outhalves having to kick, it makes sense that the majority of teams will have their outhalf as a kicker as they're already in a position on the pitch requiring high levels of kicking skill. What I do think we should do at a coaching level however is encourage more backs to develop their kicking skill. Most players other than outhalves who can kick can only do it because they used to play there as a schoolboy.

Gambas

Is Michael Kiernan the last non-10 to kick regularly for Ireland?

I'd start PJ again too. And have him kicking from the tee. He'l be better than the last day for sure.

legendary.xix

.ak wrote: »

Yeah, but most teams also have capable kickers across the backline, so that when your first selected goal kicker doesn't produce the goods or is injured you can rely on someone else on the starting team.

It isn't a pre-requisite part of the 10's repertoire to kick at goal. They just tend to be the best at it because of their skill with the boot. Ireland does have an obsession with not realizing other players can kick too.

When was the last time we used someone outside of the outhalf to kick at goal? Mike Gibson?

I accept you're point to a degree but unfortunately we don't have that option. I think we started with the best back available bar Jackson. If one of the other backs could've taken the kicks great but it didn't seem an option. I think some have called for McFadden to come in for kick but I'm not sure he should be brought in.

CIARAN_BOYLE

dtpc191991 wrote: »

Can Marshall place kick?

Yes, he has done so at underage level (although he was usually behind Jackson/McKinney at underage level) and in the AIL.

He hasn't taken a kick at senior professional level yet.

Hippo

legendary.xix wrote: »

Having gone for O'Gara at the outset of the championship, I think Kidney should stick with him unless a player is playing himself into contention with his province.

There is no possible argument for persisting with ROG. Even Munster have got the hang of that one.

irishbucsfan

legendary.xix wrote: »

I accept you're point to a degree but unfortunately we don't have that option. I think we started with the best back available bar Jackson. If one of the other backs could've taken the kicks great but it didn't seem an option. I think some have called for McFadden to come in for kick but I'm not sure he should be brought in.

Who would you start then?

Edit: apologies, only saw you answered this now

mfceiling

legendary.xix wrote: »

It's a hard call. I didn't think O'Gara should have been dropped for Jackson. Madigan was the only player I'd have seen ahead of O'Gara for Sunday if a change was needed.



Having gone for O'Gara at the outset of the championship, I think Kidney should stick with him unless a player is playing himself into contention with his province. Jackson has not with Ulster. It should be over to a player in another province.





If Jackson's doesn't nail his kicks on Friday and Madigan is across the water in Wales the same evening, there'll be a bit more of a clamour for Madigan to get the call.

Please say you are joking.....

ScissorPaperRock

The only sensible decision now is to stick with him. We'd be doing the team a diservice as well as Paddy himself by backtracking now.

He deserves more time to prove himself, and based on his game last week, kick aside, he has a lot to offer.

I want to see Madigan in green too, but his time should come this summer.

wp_rathead

Should Jackson be dropped? Only for Sexton imo

Kidney has already made his call about whether to go with Jackson or Madigan and to go with Madigan now would be quiet unfair on Jackson who, as has been said, had solid game bar his place kicking

CGD

No! Have to keep faith with Jackson if Sexton is not fit to play and would have Madigan on the bench.

If sexton is fit he starts with PJ on the bench!

Teferi

Dropping Jackson now in favour of ROG would utterly destroy his confidence. After being dropped in to start ahead of ROG Kidney has essentially rolled the dice and now needs to stick with the man he chose.

leonard7

the best thing to happen would be sexton to come back and PJ to go to the bench then Kidney would save a lot of face...i reckon hes sitting in a church right now praying for it

sydthebeat

assuming sexton is out of the picture then no way should jackson be dropped.

in open play the general consensus is that he was pretty good.
the mistake was having no back up goal kicker, not the fact he started.

Id be delighted to see madigan on the bench, but i think a more likely move would be to start mc fadden for earls.

Piliger

It is clear to me that Jackson is not ready for the big time. I agree with the decision to select him last week, but he needs more time.

This nis the perfect time to give Madigan his chance. He has earned it.

legendary.xix

Piliger wrote: »

It is clear to me that Jackson is not ready for the big time. I agree with the decision to select him last week, but he needs more time.

This nis the perfect time to give Madigan his chance. He has earned it.

I'm surprised you think he was right to get the nod last week but now you want Madigan.

I wasn't surprised by Jackson's woeful kicking. Any team going into a game without a recognised kicker are asking for trouble and that's what we got. When Sexton went off against England, I thought it would have opened the door for Madigan or Keatley.

Sinbad_NI

Thought PJ did really well. Let's not forget the hand he had in the first half line breaks... not his fault that others couldn't convert them. He was also strong in defense. Was a general highlight for me.

Kicking from tee was also not that bad... first cap at 21 after all and 1 did hit the post.
If Earls has to go for FMF i could live with that.

I think Madigans is in storming form now and possibly paying for Leinsters poor form at the start of the year when PJ and Ulster were going strong. Although would love to see him on the bench if JS doesn't make it back.

Eod100

If Sexton's back then Jackson should be dropped.

If Sexton's still injured then start Madigan and let him take the kicks.

P_1

Totally counterproductive to drop him at this stage.

The season is a lost cause now we may as well build for the future

tolosenc

legendary.xix wrote: »

Having gone for O'Gara at the outset of the championship, I think Kidney should stick with him unless a player is playing himself into contention with his province.

Well, what about ROG playing himself miles out of contention for country and province?

IMO, Jackson should be dropped if Sexton is back, should not be dropped in favour of ROG, and I could go either way on Madigan.

Kayless

I would like to see Jackson start against France, the guy will lose all confidence in himself if we drop him now. However, I would like to see Madigan start against Italy, a rewarded for his recent form.

KERSPLAT!

Bit late to the party but sure...

So, if Sexton is still out I'd start PJ with Madigan bench

If Sexton is back, start PJ and Sexton on the bench

If Sexton is fully fit, start Sexton with PJ on the bench

Dropping him now for ROG (please god no!), Madigan or Keatley would destroy his confidence in my opinion. Start him with McFadden on the wing to take kicks or give him another chance at kicking either way I think he has to start unless Sexton is 100%

jacothelad

.ak wrote: »

Yeah, but most teams also have capable kickers across the backline, so that when your first selected goal kicker doesn't produce the goods or is injured you can rely on someone else on the starting team.

It isn't a pre-requisite part of the 10's repertoire to kick at goal. They just tend to be the best at it because of their skill with the boot. Ireland does have an obsession with not realizing other players can kick too.

When was the last time we used someone outside of the outhalf to kick at goal? Mike Gibson?

Michael Kiernan.

totallegend

Surely this thread is crying out for a poll?

jacothelad

totallegend wrote: »

Surely this thread is crying out for a poll?

Only if it's grandmother was Irish.....;)

JRant

Jackson had a fine game against Scotland, the real fault was in not having Ferg on the wing instead of Earls to take the kicks.

For France I'd love to see Boss inside PJ to help marshal the pack a bit more. I think his style and experience would suit PJ a bit more than Murray and he's being having a good season so far. Stick Ferg on the wing to take the pressure kicks. P Marshall and Madigan on the bench to mix it up a bit. Throw in Fitz on the bench and we'd have serious cover for a lot of back line positions.

Gordon Gecko

I'd start Madigan purely because I think he's the better goal kicker, with Jackson benching. Benching isn't the end of the world and I think he'd make an excellent impact sub. Putting Fergus McFadden in the back line to handle goal kicking duties is, I think, sheer madness. He's not good enough to force his way into the back line on the strength of his performances at wing or centre and I don't think we should sacrifice players who are better in those positions just so he's there for the shots at goal.

GerM

jacothelad wrote: »

Michael Kiernan.

Your European Cup winning full back will be disappointed you've forgotten him!

rchendz92

Aye, keep with Jackson and have McFadden on the wing to take kicks. Aside from the OH situation, Earls needs to be dropped for a game or two to teach him to not be so bleeding selfish, so starting McFadden will kill two birds with one stone.

EDIT: that said, I'd have no problem whatsoever with Madigan starting and PJ benching. 50/50 really

Gordon Gecko

rchendz92 wrote: »

Aye, keep with Jackson and have McFadden on the wing to take kicks. Aside from the OH situation, Earls needs to be dropped for a game or two to teach him to not be so bleeding selfish, so starting McFadden will kill two birds with one stone.

EDIT: that said, I'd have no problem whatsoever with Madigan starting and PJ benching. 50/50 really

Can you justify playing McFadden purely for his goal kicking though?