NI: New Unionist Party

Thomas_I

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21595575

"Basil McCrea and John McCallister set up new unionist party"

There is still something on the move in NI. According to that BBC News article (link above) an new unionist party is to be set up in April 2013. From the outset more progessive than the others and more "inclusive" as well.

How do people from the unionist community consider this development. The aim of that party is also to keep NI going and addressing the expressions of Catholics who consider themselves as unionists. I wonder how many people from both sides can this new party unite in their common believe in a peaceful future for Northern Ireland and thus outnumbering the people still in favour of a UI. Are there some chances that this new party, altough found and lead by former Ulster Unionists from the very start, can develop to something like an "Peoples Party for NI"?

I think that the more people on a cross-community level recognise that what they have with their current Northern Ireland government is working well and is still improving, the more people won´t think about a re-unification with the RoI in the nationalist community. This could be leading towards a "third way to solve the Irish question" in which the people there concentrate on what they have and how to make it better. By this the debate about Irelands unification won´t end soon, but it can become less relevant to an eventually growing majority in favour of NI instead in favour of a UI.

Happyman42

"We're committed to the union. We think that's the right way for Northern Ireland to go forward'

Mr McCrea added that they wanted to "find a name that is inclusive of all sections of Northern Ireland community".

Hand me down the facepalm. Don't confuse unionist power plays with progress.

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

Hand me down the facepalm. Don't confuse unionist power plays with progress.

What when they are going to proof that it does? They don´t have a name for that party yet and they´re just the two of them at the moment. If this new party will be a success from the very start, it could change the political environment in a couple of years to come. Interesting to notice that there is still something on the move.

Penfailed

They may be pro-union but according to the census figures, so too are many Catholics. They will appeal to those Catholics who are happy to live in NI under the UK banner as long as their nose isn't being rubbed in it at every turn. They have already stated that they are pro-union but don't feel that they have to wrap themselves in a flag to show it.

Chips Lovell

Isn't this Alliance Party territory or is there room for another party?

Thomas_I

Penfailed wrote: »

They may be pro-union but according to the census figures, so too are many Catholics. They will appeal to those Catholics who are happy to live in NI under the UK banner as long as their nose isn't being rubbed in it at every turn. They have already stated that they are pro-union but don't feel that they have to wrap themselves in a flag to show it.

Could become some part of normality that people don´t have "wrap themselves in a Union Flag" to show they´re backing the union.

I suppose that this new unionist party might settle itself somewhere right of the centre and might gain some votes from the Alliance Party as well.

Thomas_I

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Isn't this Alliance Party territory or is there room for another party?

I would say that it could be an advantage towards a peaceful NI if there will be a party that is capable to bridge the gap better than the Alliance Party. Normally, there should be room for every other party in a democracy. Their policy and the way they convince people to vote for them will make a difference.

I´m curious which name they´ll give this new unionist party and how many people will join it during this year, as well as what their policies will be. I expect that one thing might not appear in their manifesto, an approach towards a United Ireland. Rather something strong related towards a self-governing of NI as it is at the present.

Fratton Fred

If they have any sense, unionists will reorganise, get rid of the sectarian shackles and unite behind one party, that is the only way they can provide any credible pro union opposition to Sinn Fein.

Thomas_I

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If they have any sense, unionists will reorganise, get rid of the sectarian shackles and unite behind one party, that is the only way they can provide any credible pro union opposition to Sinn Fein.

I couldn´t say it better than you did. It´s just that this will be a difficult undertaking because either way it will be a competition among the unionists themselves and I don´t know what loyalists think of that. The important thing is, that it is intended to be the political platform for all moderate minded people who are not so much in favour of the Alliance Party or the already established parties altogether. They can gain from all political factions but I wouldn´t be so enthusiastic at the moment. Just wait and see, who´s going to join them.

Happyman42

Thomas_I wrote: »

Could become some part of normality that people don´t have "wrap themselves in a Union Flag" to show they´re backing the union.

Unionism is fracturing.
These two are jumping ship but it's hard to see how they can heal the fracture. Nobody within Unionism is brave enough to grasp the nettle and tell their supporters the truth about how it has to be in the future.
Until they do, 'return to normality' issues like flying the flag will deeply rupture and further divide Unionism.
A few years ago Billy Hutchnson was all for flying the flag on designated days, now, fearing oblivion, he is siding with the UUP and the DUP, who themselves had precious little concerns about it a short while ago.
The only thing this new party (if it is a serious attempt and not just a power play, which I suspect it is) can achieve is further disarray. The amount of pro Union catholics about is minimal and won't bolster lack of interest and disaffection among traditional Uionist voters.

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

Unionism is fracturing.
These two are jumping ship but it's hard to see how they can heal the fracture. Nobody within Unionism is brave enough to grasp the nettle and tell their supporters the truth about how it has to be in the future.
Until they do, 'return to normality' issues like flying the flag will deeply rupture and further divide Unionism.
A few years ago Billy Hutchnson was all for flying the flag on designated days, now, fearing oblivion, he is siding with the UUP and the DUP, who themselves had precious little concerns about it a short while ago.
The only thing this new party (if it is a serious attempt and not just a power play, which I suspect it is) can achieve is further disarray. The amount of pro Union catholics about is minimal and won't bolster lack of interest and disaffection among traditional Uionist voters.

It could be the case that they´re just jumping the ship and there is much to be awaited for coming up in the next month. It depends on how many people they can bring over to their side from the Unionist camp. As you said often, the amount of pro Union Catholics is minimal, it´s also possible that this amount can grow. See how many people on here, just for an example, from the RoI are strongly arguing against a re-unification with NI. I don´t hold these boards as the ultimate representative mirror, but I can imagine that there are other places where unification is not a favoured matter. Further I think that people in NI take note of this and by the way their impression grows that they´re "not wanted" they might give in to second thoughts and re-orientate towards an alternative in NI.

It´s clear to me, that this new party will not attract the die-hards on the unionist side.

Penfailed

Happyman42 wrote: »

The amount of pro Union catholics about is minimal

Don't be so sure about that. Going by the census figures, there are many more that consider themselves Northern Irish rather than Irish and would be happy to remain within the UK without the trappings of flags and emblems.

Happyman42

Penfailed wrote: »

Don't be so sure about that. Going by the census figures, there are many more that consider themselves Northern Irish rather than Irish and would be happy to remain within the UK without the trappings of flags and emblems.

That is no indication that they would support and join a 'pro-Union' party.

And are you sure you are not confusng a 'census' with a 'poll'?

Happyman42

Thomas_I wrote: »

It´s clear to me, that this new party will not attract the die-hards on the unionist side.

Nothng is clear, they don't even have a name yet much less a manifesto. Probably because they can't swallow hard and omit the descriptive word 'Unionist'. Faltering at the first hurdle?

Chips Lovell

The census did ask about national identity alright.

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

Nothng is clear, they don't even have a name yet much less a manifesto. Probably because they can't swallow hard and omit the descriptive word 'Unionist'. Faltering at the first hurdle?

Yes, that all has to be worked out yet and it is still in the making. If they remain just the two of them, then it´s a non-starter.

smcgiff

Happyman42 wrote: »

That is no indication that they would support and join a 'pro-Union' party.

And are you sure you are not confusng a 'census' with a 'poll'?

Alas, I think Pennfield is spot on. I think you might be confusing the voting for nationalist parties with being pro UI. There are several reasons as to why voting for Nationalist parties would not translate into a vote for a UI.

Unionist Catholics (or Unicorns) are very much out there and in significant number.

Thomas_I

smcgiff wrote: »

Alas, I think Pennfield is spot on. I think you might be confusing the voting for nationalist parties with being pro UI. There are several reasons as to why voting for Nationalist parties would not translate into a vote for a UI.

Unionist Catholics (or Unicorns) are very much out there and in significant number.

Is that word meant as an insult or any other kind of offence? It´s the first time I notice it in relation to Catholics in NI.

Chips Lovell

smcgiff wrote: »

Alas, I think Pennfield is spot on. I think you might be confusing the voting for nationalist parties with being pro UI. There are several reasons as to why voting for Nationalist parties would not translate into a vote for a UI.

Unionist Catholics (or Unicorns) are very much out there and in significant number.

I think you're spot on here. If you want to get cross-community support, putting the word unionist in the title is probably a bad idea. I'm fairly sure that there's plenty of people who are happy enough with the status quo, but would be still loath to cast a vote for anything branded as "unionist".

Happyman42

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The census did ask about national identity alright.

Yes it did, but to say that 29.9% who distinguish themselves as 'Northern Irish' are automatically 'pro-Union' is a bit of a stretch.
Happy to stay in the Union for now-would not vote for a UI tomorrow, that is as much as you can say about both the census and the BBC poll.

I fail to see that there is a signficant demographic out there whose votes could be hoovered up by a new moderate party.

If these two where serious they would have formed an alliance with somebody from across the divide and chosen a name before announcing a new party. What signifiicant politician is going to want to join a new party where the leader is already chosen and it's ideology already defined?

smcgiff

Thomas_I wrote: »

Is that word meant as an insult or any other kind of offence? It´s the first time I notice it in relation to Catholics in NI.

Not derogatory. It's a term used to describe Catholic Unionists as being non existent. Both Nationalist and unionist politicians have used it, by the later in terms such as 'unicorns do exist'.

Iwasfrozen

smcgiff wrote: »

Not derogatory. It's a term used to describe Catholic Unionists as being non existent. Both Nationalist and unionist politicians have used it, by the later in terms such as 'unicorns do exist'.

I think you'll find there are a lot of catholic unionists. At least in the sense 38% of them want to maintain the union. there will also be a lot of Catholics voting to maintain it in the Scottish referendum too.

Penfailed

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

If you want to get cross-community support, putting the word unionist in the title is probably a bad idea. I'm fairly sure that there's plenty of people who are happy enough with the status quo, but would be still loath to cast a vote for anything branded as "unionist".

They have already indicated that the word 'Unionist' will not be in the name of the party.

Chuck Stone

If they managed to get a couple of prominent SDLP politicians on board and down-played the whole 'committed to the union' thing they might actually have a chance.

They'll need some good propaganda PR if they want to attract Catholic 'status quoists'

sanbrafyffe

natioalists in the north are happy enough with the union aslong as the they dont have to wrap the flag around them etc.lot of this is due to the poor economy down south.things are bad enough in the uk never mind looking down here.i seen it for myself while is aus with all the young northern nationalists(even a few unionist lads) hanging around the irish bars and chatting to them.a few lads from north tyrone told me that they will never have any affection for the uk government but at the moment they said they were stable and wouldnt change it till things in the south looked brighter etc,so that showed me that theat most nationalists have no love for the union but will abide by it till things are better else where.if they are happy with it there for now leave them too it.id love to see a united ireland but not yet or for a good few years yet with the state we are in.if i was asked to vote id prob say no for now but in a few years i would certainly vote yes.i think the nationalists have the same idea for now.the whole reason there is no united ireland and wont be for a good few years yet is that the irish government do not simply want it and we know thats a fact,but we do definitely know that the the british government dont want it either and that is certainly even more of a fact:)

Happyman42

Chuck Stone wrote: »

prominent SDLP politicians

Does not compute.

sanbrafyffe

arent the sdlp hopeing to link up with fianna fail actually.that would be interesting

Happyman42 wrote: »

Does not compute.

Chuck Stone

Happyman42 wrote: »

Does not compute.

Okay, maybe ones that are 'status quoists'.

Fratton Fred

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Okay, maybe ones that are 'status quoists'.

Wasn't that fianna fails mantra?

Whatever you want, whatever you like...

guinnessdrinker

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

arent the sdlp hopeing to link up with fianna fail actually.that would be interesting

Nah, the SDLP are not that stupid.

J Cheever Loophole

I would have to say that the background to this new party being formed has instilled in me a new found respect for Basil McCrea - and that is not something I thought I would have ever said.

Basil McCrea resigned from the UUP because of the 'unity candidate' that they were putting forward with the DUP in Mid Ulster. At that time he said that the Mid Ulster by-election was "squaring up to be a sectarian battle" and that a joint candidate damaged the "whole of Northern Ireland".

In that, he hit the nail firmly on the head.

Let's not forget the context to this - the DUP have constantly lamented the fact that the Northern Ireland government that they are part of, and which enshrines power sharing, does not represent true democracy, and it is their ambition to have a future political process more aligned to somewhere like Westminster. Furthermore, both they and the UUP have significant differences in important policies - the proposals for local council reform up here I believe is an example of one major difference. I also think most reasonable people would agree that there is no danger currently to the Union.

Against that background, the agreement betwen the DUP and UUP to run a joint candidate really does stink of sectarian politics at its worst and is designed to ensure that the 'other side' don't get in, and it's why McCrea was so spot on in his assessment. The stance of the main Unionist parties sickens me to be honest.

McCrea I feel has shown himself to be a man of principle and as a Nationalist I wish him all the best with his new party.

everdead.ie

In Fairness to MCrea he appears a lot more liberal than other Unionist and this idea of a Liberal Unionist party could go down very well given that the UUP and DUP are right leaning Aliiance and SDLP Center and Sinn Fein the only left leaning party and given the poverty issues especially in Belfast a left leaning(if thats what he means by liberal) party could do very well.

Similarly a right leaning nationalist party could do pretty well too.

Jeff D.

Ulster Protestants won't be voting for you Basil, so you shouldn't bother trying to get our vote. We are a conservative and traditionalist people, so this new party won't get very far at all.

Penfailed

Jeff D. wrote: »

Ulster Protestants won't be voting for you Basil, so you shouldn't bother trying to get our vote. We are a conservative and traditionalist people, so this new party won't get very far at all.

Wow. Massive generalisation is massive. Do you speak for every Ulster Protestant? Even the ones in the three Ulster counties that can't vote in NI elections?

Chuck Stone

Jeff D. wrote: »

Ulster Protestants won't be voting for you Basil, so you shouldn't bother trying to get our vote. We are a conservative and traditionalist people, so this new party won't get very far at all.

Jeffery Dahmer is the prophet of the Protestants of Ulster.

Jeff D.

Penfailed wrote: »

Wow. Massive generalisation is massive. Do you speak for every Ulster Protestant? Even the ones in the three Ulster counties that can't vote in NI elections?

This new party will not get that many votes from Ulster Protestants. Basil is just barking up the wrong tree and will fail miserably. Expecting people to abandon the heritage they have is not going to work.

Good to see the UUP got rid of the leftie liberal though.

nesf

Jeff D. wrote: »

Ulster Protestants won't be voting for you Basil, so you shouldn't bother trying to get our vote. We are a conservative and traditionalist people, so this new party won't get very far at all.

Jeff D. wrote: »

This new party will not get that many votes from Ulster Protestants. Basil is just barking up the wrong tree and will fail miserably. Expecting people to abandon the heritage they have is not going to work.

Good to see the UUP got rid of the leftie liberal though.

And that's enough of that. (serial rereg by the way guys, thanks for the reported posts)

junder

Can I ask why specifically jeff was banned, while his opinion may not be comfortable with many Irish posters but its a common view amoung many unionists, I have only seen a couple of posts and may have missed something really offensive that me may have posted but he is right on one thing. I see my community as right wing on moral issues such as gay rights or abortion ( this is due to the involvement of the church's) but quite left wing on social, bread and butter issues (this is due to the involvement in trade unions as a result of the heavy industry's, ship building etc) so I don't see this new unionist party as being successful.

J Cheever Loophole

junder wrote: »

I see my community as right wing on moral issues such as gay rights or abortion ( this is due to the involvement of the church's) but quite left wing on social, bread and butter issues (this is due to the involvement in trade unions as a result of the heavy industry's, ship building etc) so I don't see this new unionist party as being successful.

The two main political parties representing the views of your community have come together to support a single candidate, despite the fact that they are diametrically opposed on a number of significant political issues up here. It is surely no coincidence that they have chosen to do this in a constituency where there has not been a Unionist MP in the best part of a generation. You can be sure that no such compromise candidate will be considered for North, South or East Antrim the next time there is a general election.

That the DUP chooses to do this makes a mockery of their concerns about the democratic process up here, as it is clearly a move designed to maximise the possibility that one of "the other side" doesn't get in.

Basil McCrea has recognised this and being a man of principle has decided that he will not go down the political road of sectarian headcounts. Whilst this is totally admirable, the likelihood is that it is doomed to political failure. Why - because the reality is that the Unionist electorate, when faced with a choice of Basil McCrea and his democratic principles or stopping one of "the other side" from getting in, will not worry one jot about the "social, bread and butter issues" that you referred to.

junder

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

The two main political parties representing the views of your community have come together to support a single candidate, despite the fact that they are diametrically opposed on a number of significant political issues up here. It is surely no coincidence that they have chosen to do this in a constituency where there has not been a Unionist MP in the best part of a generation. You can be sure that no such compromise candidate will be considered for North, South or East Antrim the next time there is a general election.

That the DUP chooses to do this makes a mockery of their concerns about the democratic process up here, as it is clearly a move designed to maximise the possibility that one of "the other side" doesn't get in.

Basil McCrea has recognised this and being a man of principle has decided that he will not go down the political road of sectarian headcounts. Whilst this is totally admirable, the likelihood is that it is doomed to political failure. Why - because the reality is that the Unionist electorate, when faced with a choice of Basil McCrea and his democratic principles or stopping one of "the other side" from getting in, will not worry one jot about the "social, bread and butter issues" that you referred to.

Why wouldn't a unionist be concerned about 'bread an butter issues' since they are subject to the same economic pressures as anybody else in Northern Ireland

J Cheever Loophole

junder wrote: »

Why wouldn't a unionist be concerned about 'bread an butter issues' since they are subject to the same economic pressures as anybody else in Northern Ireland

Why would two political parties, with different policies on many of the "bread and butter" issues, unite to fight an election? Do they not feel that their constituency care about these "bread and butter" issues?

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

Why wouldn't a unionist be concerned about 'bread an butter issues' since they are subject to the same economic pressures as anybody else in Northern Ireland

As was evident recently the 'fur coat Unionists' in the DUP and UUP will manipulate fundamentalist loyalism to their own ends.

If FCU's really cared about loyalists they'd focus on getting working class loyalists into education, training and jobs rather than whipping them into a paranoid frenzy over flegs and marching in an attempt to make political capital.

ardmacha

Why wouldn't a unionist be concerned about 'bread an butter issues' since they are subject to the same economic pressures as anybody else in Northern Ireland

Unionists want to keep NI an economic basket case to keep talk of UI off the table.

Fooker

I think it's important to realise that most pro-union Catholics see it as something beneficial and I would guess that most would almost certainly not describe themselves as British. I think many are tired out by the sectarian violence and dogma and they see the status-quo as going some way of creating normality.

nesf

junder wrote: »

That's fair enough, but the content of his/ her last two posts are relevant

His last two posts would not get anyone banned. Being the fifth account I think to pop up from this banned user on the other hand.

Fratton Fred

Fooker wrote: »

I think it's important to realise that most pro-union Catholics see it as something beneficial and I would guess that most would almost certainly not describe themselves as British. I think many are tired out by the sectarian violence and dogma and they see the status-quo as going some way of creating normality.

I'm not so sure. I know nationalists from the north (admittedly ones living in London) who for one reason or another just dont feel much connection to a government in Dublin.

Happyman42

Chuck Stone wrote: »

As was evident recently the 'fur coat Unionists' in the DUP and UUP will manipulate fundamentalist loyalism to their own ends.

If FCU's really cared about loyalists they'd focus on getting working class loyalists into education, training and jobs rather than whipping them into a paranoid frenzy over flegs and marching in an attempt to make political capital.

Nail on head here.
There's a saying in business..'If business is bad, never ever drop your prices, you can never recover'.
Core Unionism is so fractured now they will do anything to attempt to get one over on Nationalism, ultimately that will backfire and we will probably see much more of this Unionist infighting sideshow.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm not so sure. I know nationalists from the north (admittedly ones living in London) who for one reason or another just dont feel much connection to a government in Dublin.

It will only take SF sharing power in the south to change that, and it will change very quickly. Sharing power in both juristictions will be seismic

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

I see my community as right wing on moral issues such as gay rights or abortion ( this is due to the involvement of the church's) but quite left wing on social, bread and butter issues (this is due to the involvement in trade unions as a result of the heavy industry's, ship building etc) so I don't see this new unionist party as being successful.

True which is why I suspect PUP with its support of bringing over the UK mainland abortion laws which allow for abortion at a point when we are clearly talking about a human baby and for "gay rights" was cooked up somewhere in England by English people. Of course when the DUP- the Presbyterian wing of Fianna Fail which whatever you say about it is something native to Ireland- came on side the "Peace Process" than PUP had outlived its usefulness.

SoulandForm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If FCU's really cared about loyalists they'd focus on getting working class loyalists into education, training and jobs rather than whipping them into a paranoid frenzy over flegs and marching in an attempt to make political capital.

Lets be honest- there is very little more the DUP can do other than what it is doing. You could also criticize Sinn Fein for the state of some nationalist areas- but the real power lies outside of Northern Ireland.

Francie Barrett

Fooker wrote: »

I think it's important to realise that most pro-union Catholics see it as something beneficial and I would guess that most would almost certainly not describe themselves as British.

You seem to be the only person here that gets that.

Basil McCrea is wasting his time with his new party. The Alliance party already fills the gap of voters who don't want to identify themselves as Nationalist or Unionist. If McCrea tries to position his party as being more Unionist, then Catholics just won't vote for him. He won't fracture the Unionist vote either, UUP and DUP voters will just continue voting for those parties to stop a Nationalist getting in.

If you ask me, he's committing electoral suicide.

gallag

I dont feel represented by any unionist partys at present so I am quite excited by this. I hope they also become the first unionist party in the north to branch out to southerners, to show them the benefits of the UK and ultimately unite these islands.