Osama take down

Arpa

Probably been done ad infinitum but is pi*sses me offf.

Don't know too much about these tactics but surely crashing a chopper is pretty drastic? Are the Navy Seals really up to these kind of missions? The last major gaffe I know of is the SAS and the Iranian embassy...but surely as we always hear, these are the best trained soldiers in the world who train specifically for this type of mission. How did they f*ck it up so royally...and why don't we get to see Osamas body? Trying not to be a conspiracy theorist here, but surely if you've beeen looking to kill some guy for ten plus years then you would want to show him dead no matter how graphic.

SAS took a bad rap for this I think? Where is the downed chopper? Where is Osamas body? Buried at sea?> Convenient.

All we get instead is a Hollywood version of events and no real mission info. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist but this is irritating...show me footage of the actual entry, show me Osama...and above all don't...once you'vre killed the man you've been chasing...don't throw him overboard. All smells of conspiracy, and if it's not then why run the risk of making it look like one, considering all the U.S government has been through in terms of allegations?

elfy4eva

If there was doubt, why would al Qaeda confirm his death?

NIMAN

If he was alive, would he not just come out and say "hello, here I am, the imperialists did not kill me".

Brown Bomber

elfy4eva wrote: »

If there was doubt, why would al Qaeda confirm his death?

What is "Al Qaeda"? Is it the homeless and mentally sick Muslims the FBI pick up in Mosques and push into carrying out sting operations? Is it the old guard of the US backed Mujahadeen? Is it the terrorist Belhaj the US's ally in Libya? Is it the Jihadis the US is supporting in Syria who have heeded the call of Al Zawahiri?

How exactly can Al Qaeda confirm his death anyway? How would they know he wasn't captured for example?

What does "confirmation" from Al Qaeda involve? Normally, it involves a spooky Israeli intelligence company reading "jihadi" forums that they can never divulge.

Also, it has propaganda value for Al Qaeda if Bin Laden has been killed as a marthyr rather than liver failure or whatever and when did Al Qaeda become trustworthy?

Brown Bomber

NIMAN wrote: »

If he was alive, would he not just come out and say "hello, here I am, the imperialists did not kill me".

Not if:

1. He was already dead.
2. he never stopped working with the "imperialists".
3. He fancies a retirement,

elfy4eva

Loads of people were left alive in the compound to confirm it, not least of which his wife, Amal al-Sadah who was in the room when he was shot, if you find flaw with a witness' testimony then I don't think you'd be satisfied even if they released gruesome photos of his carcass.

Brown Bomber

elfy4eva wrote: »

Loads of people were left alive in the compound to confirm it, not least of which his wife, Amal al-Sadah who was in the room when he was shot, if you find flaw with a witness' testimony then I don't think you'd be satisfied even if they released gruesome photos of his carcass.

How do you know he was shot? And you can't think of a single reason why a supposed wife of the world's most wanted man may lie or say whatever it is she is supposed to say while she is in custody?

elfy4eva

Well this tale keeps getting taller and taller. If a photo was released you probably would say it's not good enough cos half his head is missing.

I'll stick to my view of occams razor I think.

Brown Bomber

elfy4eva wrote: »

Well this tale keeps getting taller and taller. If a photo was released you probably would say it's not good enough cos half his head is missing.

I'll stick to my view of occams razor I think.

Does Occam's razor involve ignoring 10 straight questions?

Jonny7

Arpa wrote: »

SAS took a bad rap for this I think?

SAS weren't involved

Where is the downed chopper?

Where is Osamas body? Buried at sea?> Convenient.

A burial site would most likely have turned into mecca or site of desecration. With hindsight it was a good decision.

They have footage and photos of the corpse, which has been shown to Republican and Democrat senators, and despite certain calls, they have decided not to release these to the public yet.

Torakx

What did they do with Gadaffis body?

Jonny7

Torakx wrote: »

What did they do with Gadaffis body?

Was moved around the country, finally buried in an unknown place in the desert.

elfy4eva

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Does Occam's razor involve ignoring 10 straight questions?

Occam's razor is logic principal in which The simpler of two thoerys is usually the correct one. In this case it's the thoery which makes the least assumptions.

Ask whatever questions you want i bet they can be answered with less assumptions than you will use to try discredit them.

Arpa

Jonny7 wrote: »

SAS weren't involved

Sorry I meant the seals. I was pointing out that SAS and Berets were meant to be trained exactly for this kind of situation...but what happened?....really important mission, probably the most important and they go crash a chopper. So much for them. To be honest I think they're lucky they got him after all that mess.

It just p*sses me off that they didn't release the pics. Sure we all saw Sadam being hanged, we all know how graphic that was. What's the difference? A man having his neck broken or a pic of a man with three rounds in his head from a heckler and koch? The general public can deal with graphic images...we've been desensitised after all these conflicts.

I'm not saying they should plaster them all over the tv stations...but at least release them to the public domain. As for making him a martyr...he already is in the eyes of fundamentalists so big deal.

So what if the USA were the one's who killed him? If he was a terrorist then all nations should be entitled to see the photographic evidence. Not just our governments...we the people too.

Jonny7

Arpa wrote: »

Sorry I meant the seals. I was pointing out that SAS and Berets were meant to be trained exactly for this kind of situation...but what happened?....really important mission, probably the most important and they go crash a chopper. So much for them. To be honest I think they're lucky they got him after all that mess.

It's not the movies.

I'm not saying they should plaster them all over the tv stations...but at least release them to the public domain. As for making him a martyr...he already is in the eyes of fundamentalists so big deal.

The Bin Laden death photos according to those who've seen them are quite gruesome, large chunk of skull missing and brain exposed. Obama thought it could pose an incitement to further violence, the Bush admin would have probably released.

Sixtus

Arpa wrote: »

Sorry I meant the seals. I was pointing out that SAS and Berets were meant to be trained exactly for this kind of situation...but what happened?....really important mission, probably the most important and they go crash a chopper. So much for them. To be honest I think they're lucky they got him after all that mess.
.

It's the real world, accidents and mishaps happen. What they were supposed to abort when the helicopter crashed.

As a matter of fact, I think the helicopter crash proves what an incredible job they did and how incredibly well trained these men were. Despite losing a helicopter unexpectedly early in the mission, they adapted their plan quickly, carried out all their objectives completed and returned to base without a single lose of life among their own men, that by anyones standards is what I would define as a near total success. Furthermore they were able to disable the helicopter so completely as to not allow the technology to fall into Pakistani hands.

I think if you asked anyone involved if they would rather have returned short one helicopter or one man, they would tell you one helicopter.

Torakx

What incitement?
Apparently according to the USA gov they are under attack 24/7.
And in 2001 a full scale attack on their financial district(which helped alot of white business men too im guessing).
Security is up at what? orangina? lemonaide? i cant remember their protocols lol
Maybe it wasnt soft drinks and colours instead.
Im basically saying this is a joke of a situation.To think the USA are afraid of incitement.They have insighted enough rage all over the world.Everyone hates them, even some Israelis im sure.

Brown Bomber

Torakx wrote: »

What incitement?
Apparently according to the USA gov they are under attack 24/7.
And in 2001 a full scale attack on their financial district(which helped alot of white business men too im guessing).
Security is up at what? orangina? lemonaide? i cant remember their protocols lol
Maybe it wasnt soft drinks and colours instead.
Im basically saying this is a joke of a situation.To think the USA are afraid of incitement.They have insighted enough rage all over the world.Everyone hates them, even some Israelis im sure.

It's not only that. What people don't seem to understand are the concepts of Shaheed and jihad. Bin Laden in death (fighting the infidels) becomes a hero and is celebrated.

The incitement is not killing bin Laden their motivations are outlined in Bin Laden's fatwas - military bases in Saudi Arabia, the sanctions killing children in Iraq, unconditional support for the crimes of Israel etc.

And as if a "shrine" to Bin Laden if they had of buried his supposed corpse would be anything other than a Godsend for the CIA. Where the "shrine" would be a magnet for Al Qaeda who could then be monitored, kidnapped, killed, tortured or become informers.

Torakx

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It's not only that. What people don't seem to understand are the concepts of Shaheed and jihad. Bin Laden in death (fighting the infidels) becomes a hero and is celebrated.

The incitement is not killing bin Laden their motivations are outlined in Bin Laden's fatwas - military bases in Saudi Arabia, the sanctions killing children in Iraq, unconditional support for the crimes of Israel etc.

Can you explain this part?
I dont know if its a lack of a comma and my understandig of who "their" is or im just wrecked from a long day of walking lol
But more info cant hurt.
Although dont hit me with a wall of text please im still wrecked.

Jonny7

Torakx wrote: »

What incitement?
Apparently according to the USA gov they are under attack 24/7.

After 2001 yes. There hasn't been a significant attack in a long time, hence the situation is more relaxed. However it will never drop to pre-2001 levels that's for sure.

And in 2001 a full scale attack on their financial district(which helped alot of white business men too im guessing).

Which hasn't been the only terrorist attack in the world.

Security is up at what? orangina? lemonaide? i cant remember their protocols lol

They abandoned that years ago.

Im basically saying this is a joke of a situation.To think the USA are afraid of incitement.They have insighted enough rage all over the world.Everyone hates them, even some Israelis im sure.

Actually, since Obama has taken power, polls have shown the international view of the US has improved.

Brown Bomber

Torakx wrote: »

Can you explain this part?
I dont know if its a lack of a comma and my understandig of who "their" is or im just wrecked from a long day of walking lol
But more info cant hurt.
Although dont hit me with a wall of text please im still wrecked.

The point is that Islamic terrorism exists due to perceived wrongs and bin Laden having been killed in jiihad against the "great satan" means he becomes a martyr - a position of honour. Also, these so called Al Qaeda guys believe that everyone's time of death is fixed so death is less of a tragedy and death true martyrdom is a cause for celebration. Showing photos of Bin Laden (if they existed would not inflame the situation) The point I am struggling to get at is what motivates this jihad is Western Imperialism combined with an Islamic supremacist attitude.

The following are taken from Bin Laden's fatwas against the West and are largely legitimate grievances.

It should not be hidden from you that the people of Islam had suffered from aggression, iniquity and injustice imposed on them by the Zionist-Crusaders alliance and their collaborators; to the extent that the Muslims blood became the cheapest and their wealth as loot in the hands of the enemies. Their blood was spilled in Palestine and Iraq. The horrifying pictures of the massacre of Qana, in Lebanon are still fresh in our memory. Massacres in Tajakestan, Burma, Cashmere, Assam, Philippine, Fatani, Ogadin, Somalia, Erithria, Chechnia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina took place, massacres that send shivers in the body and shake the conscience. All of this and the world watch and hear, and not only didn't respond to these atrocities, but also with a clear conspiracy between the USA and its' allies and under the cover of the iniquitous United Nations, the dispossessed people were even prevented from obtaining arms to defend themselves.

The people of Islam awakened and realised that they are the main target for the aggression of the Zionist-Crusaders alliance. All false claims and propaganda about "Human Rights" were hammered down and exposed by the massacres that took place against the Muslims in every part of the world.

The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places -the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble Ka'ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims- by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies. (We bemoan this and can only say: "No power and power acquiring except through Allah").

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors. Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there.

The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries.

96: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terroris...atwa_1996.html
98: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terroris...atwa_1998.html

Torakx

Well he(Obama) won a nobel peace prize.... that is bound to effect public opinion for a start.
But im not sure how much, if at all, global esteem for the USA has risen again.
I dont have alot of contact with that many mainstream opinions.
No Tv to gage the programming from..:D

Jonny7

Contradictions guaranteed to raise their heads in threads like these..

-Al Qaeda are US controlled
-Al Qaeda are not US controlled, but justified in attacking the US because of US or Israeli injustice
-Al Qaeda exists
-Al Qaeda doesn't exist
-911 attack was happened because of desecration of Saudi sites by the US forces, sanctions on Iraq, etc
-911 was an inside job

Torakx your best bet is to read up from credible sources or perhaps pick up a book, e.g. I recommend "Inside Al-Qaeda and the Taliban: Beyond Bin Laden and 9/11", the author was an investigative journalist from Pakistan with very good connections, sadly killed after it was written.

Brown Bomber

Yes Jonny there will be contradictions if you can't escape the simplistic good vs evil paradigm and are incapable of considering the possible wheels within wheels in motion such as controlled opposition, limited hangout and false flag attacks.

Can you really not figure out why a possible candidate for leader of a controlled opposition group might issue such fatwas which tap into the anger and raise the pertient issues of those who he would seek to recruit as underlings and patsies under his command?

Arpa

I think you've all been readin a little too much Tom Clancy. Choppers don't just go down in missions. The only reason for a chopper to go down at that level is under enemy fire. Reportedly no enemy fire...so therefore the pilot made an error? Rarely would a trained warfare heli pilot make a handling error to ditch a craft. People say "yeah but this is real life!"...this doesn't happen in real life...it's too expensive to the government. Lose a man? Yeah grand. Lose a million dollar chopper...feck no. Only way to avoid it is by rigorous pilot training....and that's what they had. Trust me if they were sending a chopper pilot to kill Osama...they had their best man on the job....or....So why did one chopper go down? All sounds too dramatic.

I heard somewhere that the chopper was a new type of aircraft and as such the pilot was inexperienced, Whole load of crap. Nobody would be allowed to take out a new million dollar piece of machinery without being totally comfortable. Another yarn that everyone gobbles up because it's more exciting.

Look, whatever is the case, this whole mission just sounds a little bit suspicious, and again I'm not one to go in for conspiracy theories but this doesn't quite fit the bill for me.


Also sorry for my confusion between the seals and the green berets...honestly I don't care but I know that the team that infiltrated were meant to be the best the US had...no matter who they were they were still laughable....you don't just crash a chopper.....seriously....when not under fire you don't crash a chopper.... especially when you are trained to be a covert chopper pilot....it's suspect....

Jonny7

Arpa wrote: »

I think you've all been readin a little too much Tom Clancy. Choppers don't just go down in missions.

As they hovered above the target, however, the first helicopter experienced a hazardous airflow condition known as a vortex ring state. This was aggravated by higher than expected air temperature ("a so-called 'hot and high' environment"[49][67]) and the high compound walls, which stopped the rotor downwash from diffusing.[67][75][76] The helicopter's tail grazed one of the compound's walls,[60] damaging its tail rotor,[77] and the helicopter rolled onto its side.[21] The pilot quickly buried the aircraft's nose to keep it from tipping over.[63] None of the SEALs, crew and pilots on the helicopter was seriously injured in the soft crash landing, which ended with it pitched at a 45-degree angle resting against the wall.[49] The other helicopter landed outside the compound and the SEALs scaled the walls to get inside.[78]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Osama_bin_Laden


There was a notorious helicopter incident in the Iran hostage crisis. Also, shortly after the Osama mission, Seals were killed in a helicopter accident.

There have been about 90 helicopters crashed/lost to accidents in Afghanistan alone.

Stainless_Steel

Re the chopper crash, it annoys me when people spout crap about things they have no clue about.

A vortex ring state is near impossible to handle for any pilot. In saying that, it can be put down to human error. The mistake was made by the mission planners, not the pilot.

They practiced at a mockup of the compound in the Nevada desert. The mistake was that the walls of the mockup were constructed from chain link fence. This results in a very different airflow profile from concrete walls.

But the mockup was built from chain link for good reason too - it allows the mission planners to see every detail as the team practices.

Hoop66

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The point is that Islamic terrorism exists due to perceived wrongs and bin Laden having been killed in jiihad against the "great satan" means he becomes a martyr - a position of honour. Also, these so called Al Qaeda guys believe that everyone's time of death is fixed so death is less of a tragedy and death true martyrdom is a cause for celebration. Showing photos of Bin Laden (if they existed would not inflame the situation) The point I am struggling to get at is what motivates this jihad is Western Imperialism combined with an Islamic supremacist attitude.

The following are taken from Bin Laden's fatwas against the West and are largely legitimate grievances.

I would agree generally with what you say here, but I think that there are those in the Islamic world with their own agenda, specifically to consolidate their own local power and influence. And what is better for their standing than a mob in the street, waving photos of a martyred Bin Laden and shouting "death to America"?

Whether the "protestors" are a real, spontaneous demonstration, or whether they are just doing what they are told is debatable.

Torakx

Stainless_Steel wrote: »

Re the chopper crash, it annoys me when people spout crap about things they have no clue about.

A vortex ring state is near impossible to handle for any pilot. In saying that, it can be put down to human error. The mistake was made by the mission planners, not the pilot.

They practiced at a mockup of the compound in the Nevada desert. The mistake was that the walls of the mockup were constructed from chain link fence. This results in a very different airflow profile from concrete walls.

But the mockup was built from chain link for good reason too - it allows the mission planners to see every detail as the team practices.

Even I as a non pilot and nothing to do with flight in anyway, know of this issue.
How is it you think the american governments army forgot this glaring problem?

Obviously there is alot of force on the air when a helicoptor tries to drop down into a hole as it were.
A chain link fence is not a hole again as it were.
I am uneducated in flight lingo lol

Stainless_Steel

Torakx wrote: »

Even I as a non pilot and nothing to do with flight in anyway, know of this issue.
How is it you think the american governments army forgot this glaring problem?

Obviously there is alot of force on the air when a helicoptor tries to drop down into a hole as it were.
A chain link fence is not a hole again as it were.
I am uneducated in flight lingo lol

Mistakes happen. I am not sure what you are insinuating....that there was a conspiracy because a chopper crashed?

Jonny7

Torakx wrote: »

Even I as a non pilot and nothing to do with flight in anyway, know of this issue.
How is it you think the american governments army forgot this glaring problem?

Not really glaring, just an oversight. The planning is meticulous, but there are far too many unknown elements and unforeseens

Again, it's not the movies, each one of these type of missions is extraordinarily risky and difficult.

NIMAN

You will never please CT'ers.

If they released a photo of Osama tomorrow they'd say it was a fake anyway.

Torakx

NIMAN wrote: »

You will never please CT'ers.

If they released a photo of Osama tomorrow they'd say it was a fake anyway.

Probably! lol
We are quite skeptical around here :P

I till think that oversight(with the helicopter) is not a small one at all.
I am a layman regarding the topic of helicopters and I could have told the pilot if I was sitting beside him." erm, dont you think there will be a lashback of airflow if you drop below the line of those high walls?"
"Fook that! let me out before you do this, you crazy mofo!"
lol well something lke that anyway.
It seems to be so obvious, maybe comparable to a race car driver forgetting all about traction when cornering and going 100mph too fast.

Sixtus

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Yes Jonny there will be contradictions if you can't escape the simplistic good vs evil paradigm and are incapable of considering the possible wheels within wheels in motion such as controlled opposition, limited hangout and false flag attacks.

No there are flat out contradictions.

Al Qaeda can't be USA controlled and a Fundamentalist Religious Organisation dedicated to bringing the world under Sharia law.

Sixtus

Torakx wrote: »

Probably! lol
We are quite skeptical around here :P

There were numerous conspiracy theories that the Saddam execution was a imposter or a look alike. You will not satisfy some people period. And in attempting to please these people you risk antagonising others.

I till think that oversight(with the helicopter) is not a small one at all.
I am a layman regarding the topic of helicopters and I could have told the pilot if I was sitting beside him." erm, dont you think there will be a lashback of airflow if you drop below the line of those high walls?"
"Fook that! let me out before you do this, you crazy mofo!"
lol well something lke that anyway.
It seems to be so obvious, maybe comparable to a race car driver forgetting all about traction when cornering and going 100mph too fast.

I think a experience special forces helicopter pilot would know there would be a airflow issue when landing behind a high wall. But landing behind the wall was their job. They trained for it, they knew it was risky, but evalued the risk as worth it.

Torakx

Instead of dropping some special forces down from a rope?
And maybe blowing out the courtyard wall as they leave to enter the helicopter?
I could plan alot of ways to do it im sure without risking the whole team and mission.
The real question for me is what would the motive be to sabotage the helicopter.
If I cant fnd any it will just be put down to suspicious and I dont know what that was all about.

Jonny7

Torakx wrote: »

Instead of dropping some special forces down from a rope?
And maybe blowing out the courtyard wall as they leave to enter the helicopter?
I could plan alot of ways to do it im sure without risking the whole team and mission.

No, no you couldn't

Andy-Pandy

Arpa wrote: »

The last major gaffe I know of is the SAS and the Iranian embassy...

Care to elaborate on this?

I dont think you know what you are talking about

Sixtus

Torakx wrote: »

Instead of dropping some special forces down from a rope?
And maybe blowing out the courtyard wall as they leave to enter the helicopter?
I could plan alot of ways to do it im sure without risking the whole team and mission.
The real question for me is what would the motive be to sabotage the helicopter.
If I cant fnd any it will just be put down to suspicious and I dont know what that was all about.

Well what wonderful back seat quarterbacking. Did you get your Captain's Bars in a cereal box or have you just played alot of call of duty and that's what makes you qualified to decide what was the best course of action.

What inane train of thought is fueling this logic. The pilot planed to crash the helicopter because...... The story wont be plausible.

The absolute asinine theories are just unhinged. Why would they do this?

Torakx

Sixtus wrote: »

Well what wonderful back seat quarterbacking. Did you get your Captain's Bars in a cereal box or have you just played alot of call of duty and that's what makes you qualified to decide what was the best course of action.

What inane train of thought is fueling this logic. The pilot planed to crash the helicopter because...... The story wont be plausible.

The absolute asinine theories are just unhinged. Why would they do this?

Not sure yet
I havent honestly looked into it in ages.
Im just saying this fail landing should have easily been forseen, especially by the pilot.
Maybe they have some serious issues with their structure if a pilot is not part of the planning and/or was trained to obey orders to the T even though he senses it going to go badly.
Is it the case that army recruits and trainees are thought not to think for themselves but to obey orders?
That seems too easy a cop out and a fallacy.

Im open to suggestions from others as to why this would be done purposefully.
I like to have reasons for things, and stupidity seems too easy a cop out for such an advanced and tactical unit and nation.

Stainless_Steel

Torakx wrote: »

Not sure yet
I havent honestly looked into it in ages.
Im just saying this fail landing should have easily been forseen, especially by the pilot.
Maybe they have some serious issues with their structure if a pilot is not part of the planning and/or was trained to obey orders to the T even though he senses it going to go badly.
Is it the case that army recruits and trainees are thought not to think for themselves but to obey orders?
That seems too easy a cop out and a fallacy.

Im open to suggestions from others as to why this would be done purposefully.
I like to have reasons for things, and stupidity seems too easy a cop out for such an advanced and tactical unit and nation.

You're over simplifying the chopper thing. First unforeseen was the air temp difference and the result that has on air pressure.

Secondly are you aware that the chopper was a modified stealth prototype? It had special rotor and body designs. So there is always a risk. But the mission objective meant that they took the risk.

Re your earlier comment that it is suspicious to blow the chopper up....the US did not want this tech to get into anybody's hands.

Arpa

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

Care to elaborate on this?

I dont think you know what you are talking about

Yep...major gaffe. Watch the video yourself. It was a terribly executed operation. Terrorists disguised themselves as hostages....one soldier got entangled in his abseil rope. It was a mess. Yes every mission has it's variables but I just think the Osama mission wen't down worse than any in history and given it's importance it should have been the best executed plan ever.

Not the case. When you are about to storm the building of the most wanted man in the world you shouldn't make mistakes and those mistakes only rouse my suspicions. They are one of the most expertly trained units in the world and on their big day they screw it up. Doesn't add up for me. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but this doesn't make sense. What hapenned that day? I have a feeling we are not getting the full story...and I'm not surprised..it's the US Government, we couldn't believe anything they say.

Jonny7

Torakx wrote: »

Im just saying this fail landing should have easily been forseen, especially by the pilot.

The mission was risky. The easy option would have been to just fire a missile at the compound. However, they wanted concrete evidence it was Osama.

The fact that they were prepared for one or more of the choppers to have an incident should speak volumes to you. They had chinooks on stand-by. They had explosives ready to blow the downed chopper.

Hell, the pilot had the skill and foresight to nose down and roll the chopper, saving everyone on board, then to smash the equipment in the front.

All the Seals escaped alive, in a 40 minute mission, 1 mile from the Pakistani officers academy, without Pakistani knowledge or greenlight for such a mission.

Stainless_Steel

Jonny7 wrote: »

The mission was risky. The easy option would have been to just fire a missile at the compound. However, they wanted concrete evidence it was Osama.

The fact that they were prepared for one or more of the choppers to have an incident should speak volumes to you. They had chinooks on stand-by. They had explosives ready to blow the downed chopper.

Hell, the pilot had the skill and foresight to nose down and roll the chopper, saving everyone on board, then to smash the equipment in the front.

All the Seals escaped alive, in a 40 minute mission, 1 mile from the Pakistani officers academy, without Pakistani knowledge or greenlight for such a mission.

+1 on this. It was a hugely risky but very successful mission. They left with no team casualties and Osama in a body bag.

I also think its important to point out that they completed it without injuring any of the many children present.

Sixtus

Torakx wrote: »

Not sure yet
I havent honestly looked into it in ages.
Im just saying this fail landing should have easily been forseen, especially by the pilot.
Maybe they have some serious issues with their structure if a pilot is not part of the planning and/or was trained to obey orders to the T even though he senses it going to go badly.

Or just a guess here, that they were aware of the risk and the pilot thought the risk was acceptable.

It's a special forces mission to kill the leader of a terrorist network everyone took risks.

Is it the case that army recruits and trainees are thought not to think for themselves but to obey orders?
That seems too easy a cop out and a fallacy.

I'm not even sure where to start.

Im open to suggestions from others as to why this would be done purposefully.

No you're the one suggesting it wasn't an accident. YOU propose why it does done on purpose.

I like to have reasons for things, and stupidity seems too easy a cop out for such an advanced and tactical unit and nation.

Bangs head on keyboard. ITS NOT STUPIDITY STUPID. The Pilot assessed the risk, knew it was dangerous and thought there was a good enough chance to execute the operation.

Honestly....

Torakx

The others explained it better lol
Mind your head!

Sixtus

Torakx wrote: »

The others explained it better lol
Mind your head!

No they didn't. Landing a stealth helicopter (something many of us didn't realise existed until the Osama assassination) at night in the middle of a urban area is something that could only even be attempted by a expert pilot.

It was a dramatic attack, the fact that everyone walked away (including the dog) without injury, and with the loss of only a helicopter makes this a success. Your theories are idiotic.

Torakx

yes they did...

Torakx

Jonny7 wrote: »

The mission was risky. The easy option would have been to just fire a missile at the compound. However, they wanted concrete evidence it was Osama.

The fact that they were prepared for one or more of the choppers to have an incident should speak volumes to you. They had chinooks on stand-by. They had explosives ready to blow the downed chopper.

Hell, the pilot had the skill and foresight to nose down and roll the chopper, saving everyone on board, then to smash the equipment in the front.

All the Seals escaped alive, in a 40 minute mission, 1 mile from the Pakistani officers academy, without Pakistani knowledge or greenlight for such a mission.

Theres an example
I was rusty on the incident and that cleared some things up.
You may notice I thanked the post and it was for thatreason.

Fattes

Ok a few things; the heli’s are flown by pilots from the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment known as the Knight Stalkers. They would probably be very aware and accustomed to the new helis they were flying that night but would also have known things can go wrong.

There is a reason they had Choppers sitting on a river bed near bye for backup and F22 on patrol at the border if required.

Osama is dead, the Seal team that executed the raid did an incredible job and there is nothing more to it.

Sixtus

Fattes wrote: »

Ok a few things; the heli’s are flown by pilots from the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment known as the Knight Stalkers. They would probably be very aware and accustomed to the new helis they were flying that night but would also have known things can go wrong.

There is a reason they had Choppers sitting on a river bed near bye for backup and F22 on patrol at the border if required.

Osama is dead, the Seal team that executed the raid did an incredible job and there is nothing more to it.

Quoted for truth.