New xbox drm and blocks used games

richymcdermott

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Xbox-720-Has-Always-DRM-Blocks-Used-Games-Says-Eidos-President-53032.html

Well now...**** got interesting

super_furry

These rumours don't seem to be going away but it'd be suicide for Microsoft to do this with Sony going the other way.

Pushtrak

Always. Go. To. The. Source.

http://www.mcvindia.com/news/read/ian-livingstone-talks-next-gen-hints-at-always-on-used-game-blocking-xbox/0111409

“With the next Xbox, you supposedly have to have an internet connection, and the discs are watermarked, whereby once played on one console it won’t play on another. So I think the generation after that will be digital-only.”

cgarrad

PS4 will require a new "licence" for used games. Announced the day after the main event....

super_furry

cgarrad wrote: »

PS4 will require a new "licence" for used games. Announced the day after the main event....

Really? Where?

cgarrad

super_furry wrote: »

Really? Where?

http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/21/yoshida-used-games-caveat/

Far from 100% but the hate loosing money to the second hand market...

Pushtrak

cgarrad wrote: »

http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/21/yoshida-used-games-caveat/

Far from 100% but the hate loosing money to the second hand market...

I think they would hate to lose the majority of the market more.

cgarrad

Waiting for Xbox to make a move....

super_furry

Yeah it might be a case of who blinks first. Developers want this, I don't doubt that Microsoft and Sony do too but if one of them goes with it, it gives the other a massive advantage if they don't.

Retr0gamer

I think it's more publishers that want it not developers.

Kiith

You can't really blame them for wanting this, with how the likes of Gamestop are taking advantage of the 2nd hand market. It was always only a matter of time before someone did something to stop, or at least curb how much money they make from trade ins. Online passes were the 1st step, but it seems like Sony / Microsoft want it stopped altogether.

cherryghost

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I think it's more publishers that want it not developers.

Nail on the head. Devs will get their money but it's the publishers that need to max out their profit on the games.

Retr0gamer

I on the other hand think it's just publishers being greedy. What they want to do just punishes customers when they have a problem with Gamestop and even still the second hand market is something publishers need to accept and not go blame and punishing customers when a company does something that they were well within their rights to do. There's a reason that copyright holders not being able to profit from the second hand sale of a copy of a copyrighted work is written into copyright law, to stop ridiculous profiteering.

richymcdermott

I always found it silly that they want to hurt the likes of gamestop yet they give them exclusive pre order content.

Taken away used games isnt going to see an increase of sales.

Kirby

richymcdermott wrote: »

I always found it silly that they want to hurt the likes of gamestop yet they give them exclusive pre order content.

Taken away used games isnt going to see an increase of sales.

It probably will actually. I know plenty of people who walk into a shop with 50 quid and buy 4 of 5 used games. These guys won't stop buying games.....they will merely have to buy one game new instead. Victory for the publisher as 80% of 1 game sale is alot more than 0% of 5 games. It's a shortsighted move longterm but you can understand their logic.

I very rarely, if ever, buy used so it really doesnt effect me much. If I buy a game digitally or store bought, it's brand new.

I want my money to go to the people that made the game, even by proxy. The store had no hand in it. They already take their cut. I find the fact that they get 100% from second hand sales abhorrent. I might not agree with how the publishers go about battling it, but I understand their desire to.

Dravokivich

Pushtrak wrote: »

Always. Go. To. The. Source.

http://www.mcvindia.com/news/read/ian-livingstone-talks-next-gen-hints-at-always-on-used-game-blocking-xbox/0111409

“With the next Xbox, you supposedly have to have an internet connection, and the discs are watermarked, whereby once played on one console it won’t play on another. So I think the generation after that will be digital-only.”

I'd hope there's a way of sorting out issues regarding consoles that become faulty. He could be confusing console with xbox account?

Pushtrak

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'd hope there's a way of sorting out issues regarding consoles that become faulty. He could be confusing console with xbox account?

The "supposedly" as in, that is what the rumours have been saying. Not that's what'll happen.

krudler

I don't overly have a problem with this tbh, I never buy 2nd hand and if it means taking the wind out of gamestop's sh1tty business practices then good. The profit they make on 2nd games is insane, anyway I don't see the point in buying 2nd hand at all, games get so cheap a few months after release these days online whats the point in paying a few quid less for some disc that someone had their grubby hands all over? Look at something like Hitman, its half the price it was on release now most places online.
I was in there the other day and they had a copy of Dead Space 3 there new for 54.99 and used for 49.99, why would you bother for the sake of a fiver? sealed copy with any dlc intact or used one without.

ShadowHearth

Pushtrak wrote: »

Always. Go. To. The. Source.

http://www.mcvindia.com/news/read/ian-livingstone-talks-next-gen-hints-at-always-on-used-game-blocking-xbox/0111409

If they will do this, then they lost next gen console war already.

As PC gamed I am used to buy new games and having no way of trade in them, but your average console Joe is not. Publishers will love Xbox, gamers will love Xbox. I wonder which one will win in the end... Unless MS will get some really really really good exclusives IPs, but I doubt halo will save them this time.

Varik

ShadowHearth wrote: »

If they will do this, then they lost next gen console war already.

If they did then it'll just have set a new Status quo for consoles. Sony's comments have been sparse on this, they've said that the games will work but whose games and in what manner; online passes are not a system wide feature for the consoles but most games have them.

ShadowHearth

Varik wrote: »

If they did then it'll just have set a new Status quo for consoles. Sony's comments have been sparse on this, they've said that the games will work but whose games and in what manner; online passes are not a system wide feature for the consoles but most games have them.

I am 100% sure teu said that you can play used games on ps4. Someone from Sony was asked directly and he gave clear answer. Sorry, I can't find the link to it.

Though I have to agree, they can rephrase and make playing used games ( then says in very quiet voice ), terms and conditions apply.

Shane-KornSpace

Pushtrak wrote: »

Always. Go. To. The. Source.

http://www.mcvindia.com/news/read/ian-livingstone-talks-next-gen-hints-at-always-on-used-game-blocking-xbox/0111409

Well that's just stupid. What happens if your Xbox breaks down? Buy the game again?

I would imagine itd be registered to your gamer tag. That would make more sense.

maximoose

SUPPOSEDLY

No substance to this at all, just more repeating the rumour.

Seamus Aran

Kirby wrote: »

It probably will actually. I know plenty of people who walk into a shop with 50 quid and buy 4 of 5 used games. These guys won't stop buying games.....they will merely have to buy one game new instead. Victory for the publisher as 80% of 1 game sale is alot more than 0% of 5 games.

That only holds true if those people think they're getting as much value out of that one new game as they would four or five used ones. They probably don't.

NTMK

ShadowHearth wrote: »

I am 100% sure teu said that you can play used games on ps4. Someone from Sony was asked directly and he gave clear answer. Sorry, I can't find the link to it.

Though I have to agree, they can rephrase and make playing used games ( then says in very quiet voice ), terms and conditions apply.

they came out later and said they're leaving it up to publishers to decide whether or not to block preownd games

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/pre-owned-games-block-on-ps4-is-a-publisher-decision/0111344

nesf

Kirby wrote: »

It probably will actually. I know plenty of people who walk into a shop with 50 quid and buy 4 of 5 used games. These guys won't stop buying games.....they will merely have to buy one game new instead. Victory for the publisher as 80% of 1 game sale is alot more than 0% of 5 games. It's a shortsighted move longterm but you can understand their logic.

I imagine people would switch to buying games when Amazon/whoever were doing a sale. Or waiting for price drops. What would be very interesting would be the drop in new game purchases by people who only can afford their rate of buying by finishing games quickly and selling them on second hand to get 50% or whatever of the cost back.

I'd love to see sales breakdowns for games full price versus sales price for PCs but Valve don't release those kinds of figures to the public.

super_furry

I trade games, nearly every game I trade in goes towards the purchase of new releases. If you take that ability away, I'm going to be buying less new releases.

VinLieger

IF this whole thing goes ahead im betting there will be some form of unlock feature that you need to pay for

super_furry

May well just be an extended version of the online pass, which I think already strikes a fair balance.

nesf

VinLieger wrote: »

IF this whole thing goes ahead im betting there will be some form of unlock feature that you need to pay for

As a parallel, on PCs with Steam, you can only trade games you've never played. All played games are locked to your account. Giving your account to someone else, either freely or by sale can get your account banned by the T&C (though I don't think they actually do this actively and it only comes up if I sell my account to you, hand over the details and you never pay and they just lock the account rather than returning it to me).

o1s1n

Kirby wrote: »

It probably will actually. I know plenty of people who walk into a shop with 50 quid and buy 4 of 5 used games. These guys won't stop buying games.....they will merely have to buy one game new instead. Victory for the publisher as 80% of 1 game sale is alot more than 0% of 5 games. It's a shortsighted move longterm but you can understand their logic.

I very rarely, if ever, buy used so it really doesnt effect me much. If I buy a game digitally or store bought, it's brand new.

I want my money to go to the people that made the game, even by proxy. The store had no hand in it. They already take their cut. I find the fact that they get 100% from second hand sales abhorrent. I might not agree with how the publishers go about battling it, but I understand their desire to.

If people like yourself didn't exist, then the rest of us couldn't get second hand bargains.

Keep up the good work! :pac:

K.O.Kiki

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I on the other hand think it's just publishers being greedy. What they want to do just punishes customers when they have a problem with Gamestop and even still the second hand market is something publishers need to accept and not go blame and punishing customers when a company does something that they were well within their rights to do. There's a reason that copyright holders not being able to profit from the second hand sale of a copy of a copyrighted work is written into copyright law, to stop ridiculous profiteering.

Wait... so how the fúck are they getting away with "online passes"?

Varik

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Wait... so how the fúck are they getting away with "online passes"?

Because that was simplifying it, and it's not that they can't profit from it. Their rights are exhaustion at that point to a degree, i.e you're not able to copy it and sell those copies but you can sell the original. There are overall exception such as artists in some countries being paid a % when a painting is re-sold.

Kirby

o1s1n wrote: »

If people like yourself didn't exist, then the rest of us couldn't get second hand bargains.

Keep up the good work! :pac:

Perhaps true.

But conversely if people like me didn't exist, you would't have any games to play at all. If everyone acted as you did, the publishers would make no money and the industry would collapse.

You are welcome.

I also find it peculiar that a mod of a gaming forum would so readily advocate the destruction of the gaming industry by encouraging people to buy second hand. I mean, if you had your way......you will end up mod of a forum that doesn't exist.

richymcdermott

Kirby wrote: »

Perhaps true.

But conversely if people like me didn't exist, you would't have any games to play at all. If everyone acted as you did, the publishers would make no money and the industry would collapse.

You are welcome.

I also find it peculiar that a mod of a gaming forum would so readily advocate the destruction of the gaming industry by encouraging people to buy second hand. I mean, if you had your way......you will end up mod of a forum that doesn't exist.

Like the book/comic book industry, the music industry, movies etc ?

I do agree with people should be getting the money for what they made but i think saying the industry would collapse is blowing things out of proportion

Retr0gamer

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Wait... so how the fúck are they getting away with "online passes"?

Online passes either unlock content (a form of DLC really) or else offer access to the games servers where the customer is paying for a service rather than a copyrighted piece of software. They don't lock the player completely out of the game either.

Also it has never been tested in the court of law meaning there's no official stance on whether the law in this case has enough strength that it can be enforced.

Kirby

richymcdermott wrote: »

Like the book/comic book industry, the music industry, movies etc ?

I do agree with people should be getting the money for what they made but i think saying the industry would collapse is blowing things out of proportion

If nobody bought any games new, the industry would collapse. It's a fairly simple and accurate statement.

People who only buy second hand are leeching in the same way that Pirates do. It may be legal leeching, but it's leeching all the same. None of your money is getting to the people that matter. It's all going to the retailer.

Morally second hand buyers may feel superior to pirates and illegal downloaders......but both are damaging the industry in the same way. I.E not paying the people who actually produce the games.

TiGeR KiNgS

Kirby wrote: »

People who only buy second hand are leeching in the same way that Pirates do. It may be legal leeching, but it's leeching all the same. None of your money is getting to the people that matter. It's all going to the retailer.

Morally second hand buyers may feel superior to pirates and illegal downloaders......but both are damaging the industry in the same way. I.E not paying the people who actually produce the games.

utter nonsense.

Kirby

Nice post. I like how you explained your position and then backed up your opinion.

If you disagree with me, by all means have at it. Debate is welcome. But what you are doing is simply trolling.

richymcdermott

Kirby wrote: »

If nobody bought any games new, the industry would collapse. It's a fairly simple and accurate statement.

People who only buy second hand are leeching in the same way that Pirates do. It may be legal leeching, but it's leeching all the same. None of your money is getting to the people that matter. It's all going to the retailer.

Morally second hand buyers may feel superior to pirates and illegal downloaders......but both are damaging the industry in the same way. I.E not paying the people who actually produce the games.

But people do by new.. Not everyone by used . No one is going to fork out 50-60 quid on a new game and in some cases like for me what do i do when a game goes out of print and my only option is to buy used ?

The demise of a company due to lack of fund is bad management . Thq learned that the hard way with u draw.

If a game like battlefield 3 has millions behind its development and ea decided to use 100 million for advertisement . No matter how much people buy new , it be crazy to think ea could profit from all that spending.

Then you have a company like nis america who make obsecure jrpg who are still hanging on in there with their stronghold title disgaea. A smart company can survive , even if people buy second hand.

Not directly putting this towards you but there is people like you that praise gaming industry to be special and shouldnt have a second hand market , i do wonder do the same person support any other industry by buying cds, movies ?

TiGeR KiNgS

Kirby wrote: »

Nice post. I like how you explained your position and then backed up your opinion.

If you disagree with me, by all means have at it. Debate is welcome. But what you are doing is simply trolling.

So by you logic people who buy second hand cars are leechers. Which make up probably close to 100% of people at some point in there lifetime.

We live in a market based economy. It is our democratic right to buy and sell legally obtained goods.

(And my post didn't need any explanation. I just gave one to satisfy you.)

biggebruv

Kirby wrote: »

If nobody bought any games new, the industry would collapse. It's a fairly simple and accurate statement.

People who only buy second hand are leeching in the same way that Pirates do. It may be legal leeching, but it's leeching all the same. None of your money is getting to the people that matter. It's all going to the retailer.

Morally second hand buyers may feel superior to pirates and illegal downloaders......but both are damaging the industry in the same way. I.E not paying the people who actually produce the games.

Sorry I don't agree there will always be people who buy brand new on day1 no matter what im buying tomb raider next Tuesday because im impatient:D and want to play it the second it goes on sale I know if I wait just a few weeks extra maybe what 2? 3? I could get it for abit cheaper second hand but something like god of war 4 I can wait till second hand pops up and im sure other people would be the other way around everyone has that game there dying to get and will get it day 1 no matter what.

What im more confused about is the online stores on PSN/XLIVE why in the hell are the games alot more expensive than the physical copies in the shops??

are they even aware that the digital copies have no CD,BOX,COVER,MANUAL,SHIPPING COSTS.

also with this theres no trade in option for us or no CD to bring to a mates

yet the stores get off on charging us above the price of retail shops WTF!! for next gen developers/publishers and microsoft/sony should work together to bring great deals on these stores and release brand new games DAY1 for 40euros not flipping 70euro maybe even release the games a week early that would certainly bring in some dough

I know if tomb raider was on the store right now for 40euros and was a week early I would DL it right now

Azza

I'm pretty sure if the second hand market didn't exist game retailers wouldn't be able to survive.

If they go bust then that would be extremely damaging to game developers and publishers as most of the consoles sales are still done at retail than digitally.

You could still go to Super Markets and the like but they tend to cheery pick the most popular titles. The selection of games on offer to the consumer would be poorer.

biggebruv

Azza wrote: »

I'm pretty sure if the second hand market didn't exist game retailers wouldn't be able to survive.

If they go bust then that would be extremely damaging to game developers and publishers as most of the consoles sales are still done at retail than digitally.

You could still go to Super Markets and the like but they tend to cheery pick the most popular titles. The selection of games on offer to the consumer would be poorer.

good point HMV is f**ked maybe it would have helped them if they had that good hold of the second hand market that gamestop seems to have

Kirby

TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »

So by you logic people who buy second hand cars are leechers. Which make up probably close to 100% of people at some point in there lifetime.

We live in a market based economy. It is our democratic right to buy and sell legally obtained goods.

(And my post didn't need any explanation. I just gave one to satisfy you.)

No, thats not my logic....at all.

Your comparison is a poor one and highly illogical as there is no comparison between the motor industry and the games one. I shouldn't have to explain the difference between hardware sales and software sales and why they can't be compared. Maybe I do?

And to touch on your spiel about "democratic rights to buy and sell" for a moment, I have no issue with people selling their goods to other people. My issue is when they sell them to corporations who then sell the same item at a 500% markup to another person the same day and pocket the lot.

To re-iterate my original point, second hand sales hurt the industry as a whole and I will not shed a tear to see attempts to curb it.

Regardless, whether it happens this generation or the next, the second hand market as we known it won't last. Digital distribution is the future and while I'm sure we will see games traded second hand through account transfers and the like, the days of people walking in to retail outlets to sell them is numbered. The only question is whats the number.

dreamers75

Watermark on a replicated disc hmmm. < cds/dvds are replicated from a master, depending on the title it could be in the millions> to watermark a disc you would need to change the master each time or Panasonic would have to invent/create a way to "write" a serial as such to a dvd at the end of the moulding process.

Sounds expensive

Could just put a serial on each case and once activated its tied to your account, its seems to work well on another platform that knows nothing about this pre owned lark......other platform has cheap games tho.........

I would have no issue with this if games did not cost 60 bucks a pop. Games like cod could charge 30 buck a game and still make huge money

If second hand games are stopped it creates a monopoly of sorts and games will hit 100 euro a pop in no time

Cookie_Monster

Kirby wrote: »

Nice post. I like how you explained your position and then backed up your opinion.

If you disagree with me, by all means have at it. Debate is welcome. But what you are doing is simply trolling.

does the same go for second hand cars or houses or furniture or dvd boxsets or books?
Your point is utter ridiculous.

And to touch on your spiel about "democratic rights to buy and sell" for a moment, I have no issue with people selling their goods to other people. My issue is when they sell them to corporations who then sell the same item at a 500% markup to another person the same day and pocket the lot.

the same occurs in the motor industry, sell to dealer, dealer resells for considerable more, or furniture, books & movies again or even gold.

Digital distribution is the future and while I'm sure we will see games traded second hand through account transfers and the like, the days of people walking in to retail outlets to sell them is numbered. The only question is whats the number.

remove the resale potential and you'll also have to drastically reduce the price. A big part of the value of games to the player is to get X amount of play out of them and then sell to regain some of that value. Not being able to sell automatically makes them far less valuable and people will buy far less games than they would otherwise if they can't move them on.

The ideal solution is, like the music industry, the removal of publishers from the equation with companies going direct to market themselves much like bands now achieve via the web or itunes.

Kirby

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The ideal solution is, like the music industry, the removal of publishers from the equation with companies going direct to market themselves much like bands now achieve via the web or itunes.

The ideal solution, eh? Itunes and the web. You mean digital distribution? Like I said was the future in my post? Well we agree it would seem!

richymcdermott

Kirby wrote: »

The ideal solution, eh? Itunes and the web. You mean digital distribution? Like I said was the future in my post? Well we agree it would seem!

I was all for buying digital till the stunt sony pulled with the ps3 games not playing on ps4 due to different hardware that prevents it.

Also taken into account if games go digital what why would publishers feel the need to drop their games in price, looking assassin creed 3 or fifa thats on psn is 80 quid. You hear developers say if games go digital games go cheaper yet no one proved it yet.

What happens if a company goes out of business. All your purchases are gone.

Retr0gamer

richymcdermott wrote: »

I was all for buying digital till the stunt sony pulled with the ps3 games not playing on ps4 due to different hardware that prevents it.

Coldn't really be helped. Each game would have to be extensivelly reworked or an emulator built which just isn't feasible considering the horsepower required (the timing between a CPU and six SPU's would be insane to code for, just look how much power is required to run Sega Saturn emulators and all that had was two parallel processors).

The architecture is just too different but perhaps Gaikai will be a solution.