"Queer & Catholic"

robindch

aloyisious wrote: »

If one or more of these elements is missing, there is no infallible pronouncement.

I think it would be fair to say that these fine distinctions are lost on most catholics, just as much as they are on non-catholics.

ShooterSF

aloyisious wrote: »

Any person who professed to being catholic and claimed one cannot be queer and catholic is faced with the dilemma of that being equal to saying that God screwed-up in creation, that God got it wrong.

Indeed that seems like a logical problem but even Jesus (who Christianity teaches is one and the same as god) had no problem condemning creation for being as it was. Look no further than the humble fig tree. It was created to produce figs during a limited period of the year but that didn't stop Jesus from cursing it for not producing figs out of season.

From the gospel of Mark,
"The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it."

Now that leaves (no pun intended) some serious questions over whether the christian god does create things one way and then curse them for behaving as it created or if it actually did make mistakes in their creation and then blames them for it. Just because it seems irrational to you or I doesn't mean the christian god doesn't do it, no one ever claimed rationality was one of it's characteristics!

Peregrinus

robindch wrote: »

I think it would be fair to say that these fine distinctions are lost on most catholics, just as much as they are on non-catholics.

I don't think it would be fair, actually.

Everyone knows that various popes have rules that the practice of contraception is evil, etc, etc.

Everyone also knows that the great bulk of sexually active Catholics do in fact practice contraception, and it's my impression that most Catholics who are not sexually active would practice contraception if the occasion arose for them.

That's kind of difficult to reconcile with the notion that most Catholics think that everything popes say is infallibly true. They clearly don't think that.

Nodin

It would be interesting if some genuine research was done, across a few countries, with regards to what is and is not actually known and believed.

Albertofrog

I'm catholic.
I've gay friends whom I care about
Does that make me a bad catholic or a decent person?

Peregrinus

Nodin wrote: »

It would be interesting if some genuine research was done, across a few countries, with regards to what is and is not actually known and believed.

Oh, there's masses of it. Just google "survey infallibility" for a few pointers on where to start looking. Your problem, I think, will be lots of small scale, diverse surveys asking different questions and with non-comparable survey groups (and varying standards of academic rigour), and trying to turn this into something that gives information that can fairly be compared across different groups. Also some of the surveys focus on establishing exactly what it is that people believe, but most seem to be more interested in establishing how strongly people beleive whatever it is they believe, so when they ask people about their beliefs in, e.g. infallibity, they don;t necessarily define a particular belief about infallibility; they just ask them how strongly they accept or reject a statement that, e.g., "Catholics are required to accept and do everything the Pope says", which of course rolls up infalliblity and obedience as one item, and also of course could be answered differently depending on whether you take the question to be about what the church teachers, or about what you have to accept to consider yourself a Catholic, or about what you do in fact accept.

Having said all that, I'm sure if you dig there is solid research conducted by academic sociologists of religion that will cover the degree to which church teachings are understood by adherents.

Hotblack Desiato

oldrnwisr wrote: »

In short, all catholics are christian but not all christians are catholic.

That depends

The Church of Ireland describes itself as a Catholic church (as do the Anglican churches) - 'Catholic and Reformed' but do not recognise the primacy of Rome, infallibility etc. but in fairness most of this is clearly man-made doctrine and quite recent.

There are Christians who maintain that the RCC isn't Christian. (ex-)Pope Benedict doesn't believe that Protestants are really Christian.

To put it another way, while Christianity depends on believing in Jesus alone,

Ah, but they all have their own baggage, whether it's the papacy or no papacy, which version(s) of scripture are acceptable, which interpretations of that scripture are acceptable, which totally made up stuff with no scriptural basis is required, even down to the one-church outfits in the US who maintain that only their pastor knows the true path to salvation and all others are doomed.

If you're going to take the line that God hates homosexuality and yet it exists, therefore he screwed up, then you might want to start this line of reasoning back a bit further. God also has a problem with evil and sin and yet both of these, according to the Bible, entered the world. Did he screw up, not give a crap or was he powerless to prevent it?

Epicurus dealt quite well with that one a very long time ago

Nodin

Albertofrog wrote: »

I'm catholic.
I've gay friends whom I care about
Does that make me a bad catholic or a decent person?

.....in theory you're supposed to love the "sinner" while hating the "sin". I think. I'm so long a hairy arsed heathen my knowledge of these things (unaided by google) is slim.

Peregrinus

Albertofrog wrote: »

I'm catholic.
I've gay friends whom I care about
Does that make me a bad catholic or a decent person?

No, it makes you a decent person and a good Catholic. And you'd be an even better Catholic if you cared about gay people who aren't your friends.

Catholic teaching is that gay people "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity" and that"every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided". (Even though a homosexual inclination is "objectively disordered" and homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered".)

Schizoid much? Possibly. But if you're asking, as the OP does, how somebody can possibly see himself as both gay and Catholic, well, maybe this is part of the answer.

robindch

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's kind of difficult to reconcile with the notion that most Catholics think that everything popes say is infallibly true. They clearly don't think that.

Look up Cognitive dissonance. People in this country who self-describe as "catholics" seem to suffer from it more than most.

krudler

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, it makes you a decent person and a good Catholic. And you'd be an even better Catholic if you cared about gay people who aren't your friends.

Catholic teaching is that gay people "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity" and that"every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided". (Even though a homosexual inclination is "objectively disordered" and homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered".)

Schizoid much? Possibly. But if you're asking, as the OP does, how somebody can possibly see himself as both gay and Catholic, well, maybe this is part of the answer.

Even though the church itself does nothing of the sort? youre disordered and an evil on the world, but we respect you. what utter bull****.

PopePalpatine

Oh, and don't forget that if you want an audience with the Pope, devising a bill which would make homosexuality punishable by death is a good way to get that.

TwoShedsJackson

Perhaps real life intervened, but it's interesting that since the Catholic Church's stance on homosexuality, and what they require you to believe to be a true Catholic was pointed out to witchgirl26, she has vanished.

aloyisious

Albertofrog wrote: »

I'm catholic.
I've gay friends whom I care about
Does that make me a bad catholic or a decent person?

A true follower of Christ, who had no problem with interacting or conversing with people whom "decent" people would cross the street to avoid.

SebBerkovich

aloyisious wrote: »

A true follower of Christ, who had no problem with interacting or conversing with people whom "decent" people would cross the street to avoid.

I know plenty of "decent" christians that would cross the city to avoid "interacting or conversing" with those Concern folks....

aloyisious

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I know plenty of "decent" christians that would cross the city to avoid "interacting or conversing" with those Concern folks....

True, true!