The Irish international team, what's gone wrong and how can it be fixed?

P_1

Right, going to try to keep things rational here. I know emotions are a tad high after the match so without backseat modding, lads can we keep things calm here, I'm sure that lads have enough crap to be dealing with at the moment. (Lads lock this if becomes too much hassle for ye).

So what's going wrong? We have the provinces flying high yet the international team is struggling.

1 - Lack of backup in key positions. The 10 debate sums this up rather well. Twickenham last year also sums it up.

2 - Tactics. We seem to try to play something akin to cricket in that we build up a score and then sit back and try to defend it.

3 - The captaincy. Now I think Heaslip is a fantastic player, sadly it seems that he seems to make the wrong decisions at key moments.

How do we fix things?

tolosenc

Get rid of Kidney.

P_1

I agree, Kidney is one of the problems, but he isn't the entire problem. It seems to me that there's just something amiss with the international team, something that can't be fixed by the one 'silver bullet'.

lologram

http://kidneyclock.net/

Fez101

Get O'Shea ASAP!

Clegg

The pressure of the captaincy has gotten to Heaslip imo. I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as some people make out but he isn't able to concentrate on his own game and the decision making process of captain at the same time. I actually agreed with Kidney's decision to give the captaincy to a younger man but it hasn't worked out.

Secondly we should stop selecting ROG. He's been on the decline for at least three seasons and we've seen this with his cameo's off the bench for Ireland. He's been genuinely awful against South Africa, England and Scotland. And his perfroances for Munster haven't been any better. He barely got any minutes in last years 6 Nations and thats the time when he should have been dropped for good. It's criminal that we made Jackson take the kicks for Ireland when he hasn't been the main kicker for Ulster. I don't blame him either. He had a solid game overall and he can build on that performance.

Madigan has been in fine form with Leinster from the boot and with ball in hand. I know he's only second choice and isn't playing at that high a level but his performances have been much better than what we've seen from ROG in the last 18 months.

We also have a problem with some of our players game intelligence. I think SOB is a fine player and one of the best backrowers in Europe but right now he's a penalty machine for Ireland. And Kearney has made more mistakes in the opening three matches than he did in the entirety of last season. Earls can't pass and Ross doesn't look like he can last for the full 80 minutes anymore. He can still do a good job for 50-60 minutes but we need to find another decent tighthead and quick. Deccie Fitz is decent but his fitness can't be relied upon.

A major revamp of the team is needed. More competition for our senior players and to jettison some of the underperformers.

CatFromHue

O'Shea has no interest in the Ireland job yet.

Rightwing

Paul O Connell. What a loss to both club and country.

thebaz

one word Kidney - Why was Madigan not picked at 10 ? Kidney is dragging a great group of players backwards . Schmidt to me would do justice to the quality of players available in Ireland. After watching the brand of rugby played by Leinster , not just the first 15, but the backup, makes watching Ireland such a frustrating experience. Think we're stuck with kidney for many more campaigns , yawn yawn

P_1

I think its too simplistic to blame it all on Kidney (as much as I want to :pac: ).

It's strange that the provinces seem to deal so well with injuries yet the national team can't.

CatFromHue

It is too simplistic to blame it on one man, he has some serious questions to answer all the same.

For me though he has put his faith in players who have ultimately let him down.

washman3

P_1 wrote: »

I think its too simplistic to blame it all on Kidney (as much as I want to :pac: ).

It's strange that the provinces seem to deal so well with injuries yet the national team can't.

The provinces have the luxury of a cheque book and can bring players from the southern hemisphere at the drop of a hat.
Secondly, and this has been argued here many times, the provincial game is far less intense than an international test match. Today has proved this beyond any doubt.

gcgirl

Earls had BOD on his right shoulder instead he drifts off out bloody left :mad: I would have took Earls off and stuck Luke on straight away, stupid thing to do

CatFromHue

Yes the National team is missing players through injury but there were plenty of good options available to fill in.

Bowe and Zebo are injured - Trimble and McFadden are outside the squad
Struass is injured - Best is first choice and Cronin is playing very well at the moment
Ferris is injured - Ferris is always injured
POC is injured - POC has been injured off and on for a good while now but we've a good amount of good second rows available; McCarthy, DOC, Toner, Tuohy
Sexton is injured - Jackson and Madigan are available
D'arcy is injured - Marshall played pretty well today
Healy banned - Court and Kilcoyne may have struggled in the scrum but no more than Healy would have I think.

We have plenty of strength in depth for the first time probably since the game went professional.

Clarehobo

CatFromHue wrote: »

O'Shea has no interest in the Ireland job yet.

His reaction today when it was put to him that he was in line for the job said it all. And I think he would be mad to take on Ireland. He is doing a great job at quins at the moment.
Ireland seems to be a bit of a poisoned chalice when it comes to head coaches. The last few Ireland coaches seem to all have had a bad departure from the team (and I doubt Kidney will redeem himself before his contract ends): maybe they are not the main problem?

thomond2006

You cannot properly analyse the performances of the team and management without taking stock of the injuries. Some of those injured would make any of the other Six Nations sides' starting lineups.

CatFromHue

Clarehobo wrote: »

maybe they are not the main problem?

There are other wider IRFU problems too.

Last March the IRFU announced they were looking for a director of scum in Ireland type role, it's not been filled yet. The leading candidate, Massimo Cuttita who is with Scotland now, pulled out of the recruitment process saying it was an ill defined role.

P_1

Clarehobo wrote: »

His reaction today when it was put to him that he was in line for the job said it all. And I think he would be mad to take on Ireland. He is doing a great job at quins at the moment.
Ireland seems to be a bit of a poisoned chalice when it comes to head coaches. The last few Ireland coaches seem to all have had a bad departure from the team (and I doubt Kidney will redeem himself before his contract ends): maybe they are not the main problem?

Well historically the blazers haven't exactly been the best to deal with. Also I hate to say it but the Irish fans really are a bandwagon hopping group at times

OldRio

Answer to the first part. Kidney.
Second part. Yes it can but with the blazers in charge I doubt it.

jacothelad

CatFromHue wrote: »

Yes the National team is missing players through injury but there were plenty of good options available to fill in.

Bowe and Zebo are injured - Trimble and McFadden are outside the squad
Struass is injured - Best is first choice and Cronin is playing very well at the moment
Ferris is injured - Ferris is always injured
POC is injured - POC has been injured off and on for a good while now but we've a good amount of good second rows available; McCarthy, DOC, Toner, Tuohy
Sexton is injured - Jackson and Madigan are available
D'arcy is injured - Marshall played pretty well today
Healy banned - Court and Kilcoyne may have struggled in the scrum but no more than Healy would have I think.

We have plenty of strength in depth for the first time probably since the game went professional.

The scrum wasn't great and again the usual reasons are evident. Ross was under pressure on his side from Grant destabilising the whole thing on occasion. Grant is developing into a very good player. On the other side Court had problems not so much against Cross who he usually stuffs but Hamilton at almost 20 stone and an 18 stone w.f. backing him up. Killer was even more uncomfortable when he came on though I think he is very much the future and while there isn't much between them I would start Kilcoyne against France. Ryan isn't a heavy guy and DOC is showing his age. There really isn't much choice

flutered

kidney has to take the blame, we had some serious problems today, all the irish backs failed at some stage, the lead up to scotlands try was/is nightmare inducing stuff, both for the playes and the coaches,the captain called the wrong shots, the hooker did not do a terrific job, bad darts, also luckey not to conceded two against the head, our scrum is a mess,if one does not have a scrum then one gets beaten, no matter what plan or coaching is done, when players come under real pressure they revert to what they normally do.

jacothelad

flutered wrote: »

kidney has to take the blame, we had some serious problems today, all the irish backs failed at some stage, the lead up to scotlands try was/is nightmare inducing stuff, both for the playes and the coaches,the captain called the wrong shots, the hooker did not do a terrific job, bad darts, also luckey not to conceded two against the head, our scrum is a mess,if one does not have a scrum then one gets beaten, no matter what plan or coaching is done, when players come under real pressure they revert to what they normally do

Which try was that...the first or the second?....:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Coburger

Clarehobo wrote: »

His reaction today when it was put to him that he was in line for the job said it all. And I think he would be mad to take on Ireland. He is doing a great job at quins at the moment.
Ireland seems to be a bit of a poisoned chalice when it comes to head coaches. The last few Ireland coaches seem to all have had a bad departure from the team

I guess its the nature of the business, how many coaches are there who don't get the sack in the end.

P_1

There have been a few matches where we have been nilled in the second half at this stage.

That's a worrying trend to say the least.

Hagz

Wishlist
. new manager with no provincial allegiances
. injured players to come back in good form
. new captain
. Madigan to be involved

The new manager will come once this 6 nations concludes, whether he'll have provincial allegiances will remain to be seen

Most players should come back from injury with doubts surrounding POC and Fez

I'm confident that the new manager will select a different captain.

Madigan will undoubtedly be involved once the new manager takes over

Shelflife

Whats gone wrong?

no scrum coach despite advertising for one 15mths ago

no attacking coach seemingly kiss our defensive coach is doing that as well.

No forward planning from kidney who doesnt seem to know what even he wants to do at the moment.

Cant make up his mind regarding the back up loosehead or outhalf. kilcoyne is listed as sub then someone (Court) who wasnt good enough to be sub leapfrogs above him, the same with PJ and Rog. While I believe that these were the correct decision it says something about kidney that what was the right decision in his mind last week is the wrong one this week.

I believe that indecisive crap like this confuses and demoralises the players involved. Also the way that Fitzpatrick and Cronin are used suggests that he has no faith in them at all, this too will erode the confidence of the players involved.

Kidneys refusal to blood new players until its forced upon him has come back to haunt him, his "loyality" to rog when it was clear to every one that he was passed it has bit him royally in the backside.

The way he uses the bench infruiates me, especially when players are put on with 5mins to go or even less in the case of taking off ross a few weeks ago with 90 secs left and Leo cullen against the ABs i think with 30secs left in the game, no sense to those substitutions at all and devalues the irish cap.

Kidneys inability to change plan A, or to even have a plan B, being out thought on the sideline against Eng last week and against wales in the WC are two which highlight this.

The Blazers for their part in my first two points and for not having the balls to sack Kidney after our humiliating and unacceptable defeat in NZ.

Ireland are far too easy to play against as we have witnessed against any top team we have played. Whether a new coach can solve this issue I don't know but at the moment the plan B seems to be to engage in an aimless kicking game where we always come out 2nd best.

jacothelad

There are some things over which a head coach has no control and for which he really can't be blamed in relation to how they impact on the Ireland side. For example:-
The form of existing players.
Competition for places at Provincial level and how it is managed by the coaches.
The style of play developed at the Provinces.
The number of really good players of international potential / proven ability and the speed with which the academy newcomers emerge at the provinces

There are however some things that a head coach should be able to see. The main one is when a player is no longer up to it. Sadly I think that the only conclusion we can arrive at is that Kidney has simply turned a blind eye on this since 2010. It is only when injury intervenes, a player retires or they are so awful that they get shunted first to the bench and then to the sidelines that anything happens. ROG is the current case in point but he is just the latest in a chain that goes back to 2009 /10 season. What on Earth does he see when ROG plays?

Secondly, on what basis does a player 'emerge' from the pack to claim a place. Why for example was Jackson singled out for fast tracking while Madigan and Keatley were not? Why does he continually ignore the possibility that Andress might add something to the tight head side bench / competition. Ross was pretty much second best all day.

Kidney also has a team of coaches and advisors at his disposal to travel around and look at players. He should be able to evaluate a player's performance in the light of his opponents. A player having a good game against the Ospreys or a good French side is likely to be operating at a higher level than some one playing a m.o.t.m against Zebre or Edinburgh or Cardiff Blues. Sadly, this seems to elude him.

Really, he has gradually created an increasingly shambolic mess with no direction or much by way of intelligent use of the players at Ireland's disposal.

Stheno

Borders no.2 wrote: »

Ireland are far too easy to play against as we have witnessed against any top team we have played. Whether a new coach can solve this issue I don't know but at the moment the plan B seems to be to engage in an aimless kicking game where we always come out 2nd best.

Scotland captain referenced how Ireland were notorious to get off to a quick start and they knew they had to address that today.

NIMAN

We do not have a large pool of players to choose from, so do people really expect us to be winning Six Nations/Grand Slams regularly, and challenging for the WC? Seriously?

Teams win patches, teams lose matches, era's come and go, thats the nature of sport. There is no magic manager or team of players out there that will allow you to win enough to satisfy all the fans.

Storm 10

Best should go too, shocking line outs.

P_1

NIMAN wrote: »

We do not have a large pool of players to choose from, so do people really expect us to be winning Six Nations/Grand Slams regularly, and challenging for the WC? Seriously?

Teams win patches, teams lose matches, era's come and go, thats the nature of sport. There is no magic manager or team of players out there that will allow you to win enough to satisfy all the fans.

I don't think anybody is expecting that to be honest, it would be great if it were to happen though :pac:

I think another problem we have is that the press don't tend to ask the 'hard questions' when they need to be asked too.

CatFromHue

jacothelad wrote: »

The scrum wasn't great and again the usual reasons are evident. Ross was under pressure on his side from Grant destabilising the whole thing on occasion. Grant is developing into a very good player. On the other side Court had problems not so much against Cross who he usually stuffs but Hamilton at almost 20 stone and an 18 stone w.f. backing him up. Killer was even more uncomfortable when he came on though I think he is very much the future and while there isn't much between them I would start Kilcoyne against France. Ryan isn't a heavy guy and DOC is showing his age. There really isn't much choice

Ross is first choice so I wouldn't include him on the injury issue.

Cullen and Tuohy both played for their provinces this weekend and Toner was also available. That's three of the four first choice starting locks for our two best provinces available. Granted Tuohy is only coming back from injury but I don't see losing McCarthy and POC to injury as a crisis. They are a loss but we do have other options available that can do a similar job.

thomond2006

Storm 10 wrote: »

Best should go too, shocking line outs.

for who?

desertcircus

NIMAN wrote: »

We do not have a large pool of players to choose from, so do people really expect us to be winning Six Nations/Grand Slams regularly, and challenging for the WC? Seriously?

Teams win patches, teams lose matches, era's come and go, thats the nature of sport. There is no magic manager or team of players out there that will allow you to win enough to satisfy all the fans.

We have three teams that would be comfortably classed among the ten best in Europe. England's team is picked largely from Sarries, Quins, Leicester and Saints. France's team is picked largely from Toulouse, Toulon and Clermont. Ours is picked largely from Leinster, Munster and Ulster. The difference in player pools isn't as serious as we pretend; we identify promising players early and bring them through the provincial system carefully. And the players we have at the moment should be far more than enough to beat Scotland. Hell, we should be able to field a second fifteen that would have a decent shot against Scotland - we have twice as many professional teams as they do, and our teams are a hell of a lot better. The reason people are frustrated is not because we don't have the players; it's because we don't have the gameplan or the coach.

Storm 10

desertcircus wrote: »

We have three teams that would be comfortably classed among the ten best in Europe. Ours is picked largely from Leinster, Munster and Ulster. The difference in player pools isn't as serious as we pretend; we identify promising players early and bring them through the provincial system carefully. And the players we have at the moment should be far more than enough to beat Scotland. Hell, we should be able to field a second fifteen that would have a decent shot against Scotland - we have twice as many professional teams as they do, and our teams are a hell of a lot better. The reason people are frustrated is not because we don't have the players; it's because we don't have the gameplan or the coach.

100% they play with/against each other weeks in and out know each other and yet put on the Green and it is like they lost their mojo.

Swiwi

I really don't think it's rocket science - new coach.

We know Ireland has the players as witnessed by HEC success, but it's picking the right ones that seems to have eluded Mr Kidney in recent times.

Ireland should be aiming for a consistent position in the top 6 of world rugby, with a minimum 1st or 2nd place finish in the 6N, and a semi-final or better at RWC 2015.

jacothelad

NIMAN wrote: »

We do not have a large pool of players to choose from, so do people really expect us to be winning Six Nations/Grand Slams regularly, and challenging for the WC? Seriously?

Teams win patches, teams lose matches, era's come and go, thats the nature of sport. There is no magic manager or team of players out there that will allow you to win enough to satisfy all the fans.

Absolutely correct in every respect. However your points lead to the inescapable conclusion that whoever is in charge has a duty to select the best side available from our scant resources and put into place a system that ensures a proper succession startegy.

What we have seen is one that rewards his former proteges and favourites well past their best simply for still being capable of tying their own boots. There is no plan to bring in new players unless someone dies apparently. The players who were Ireland's opponents today come from teams that invariably get stuffed by the Irish players. Kidney may have a limited number of players at his disposal but he has far more and better players than Scotland.

Teferi

Storm 10 wrote: »

Best should go too, shocking line outs.

You mean the very same Best who has been one of Irelands most consistently brilliant players over the last 2 years?

You are saying we should drop him because of a few lineout throws gone awry?

sydthebeat

Teferi wrote: »

You mean the very same Best who has been one of Irelands most consistently brilliant players over the last 2 years?

You are saying we should drop him because of a few lineout throws gone awry?

agree, that was a lazy comment by storm 10.

firstly best has been one of our very few consistent performers so far the 6N.
His work in the scrum and loose has him as one of teh two possible lions starters.
secondly, winning line outs has as much to do with the call, timing and lift as it does the hooker. TBH today there was only one throw which could have been described as off line. Its impossible to tell if the rest we lost was down to loose throwing or iffy lifting. and lest not forget we were up aginst the tallest losks in the 6N today, who pride the line out as one of their major strengths.

petebricquette

Storm 10 wrote: »

Best should go too, shocking line outs.

It's not entirely his fault anytime a lineout goes wrong. The lifters and jumpers have something to answer for as well.

Teferi

NIMAN wrote: »

We do not have a large pool of players to choose from, so do people really expect us to be winning Six Nations/Grand Slams regularly, and challenging for the WC? Seriously?

I see absolutely no reason why we should not be challenging for the Championship at least every 2/3 years and why anything less than a semi-final in the WC should be seen as a failure.

We're not the callow team of the 90's and the new generation actually look better than the Golden one.

NIMAN

desertcircus wrote: »

We have three teams that would be comfortably classed among the ten best in Europe. England's team is picked largely from Sarries, Quins, Leicester and Saints. France's team is picked largely from Toulouse, Toulon and Clermont. Ours is picked largely from Leinster, Munster and Ulster. The difference in player pools isn't as serious as we pretend; we identify promising players early and bring them through the provincial system carefully. And the players we have at the moment should be far more than enough to beat Scotland. Hell, we should be able to field a second fifteen that would have a decent shot against Scotland - we have twice as many professional teams as they do, and our teams are a hell of a lot better. The reason people are frustrated is not because we don't have the players; it's because we don't have the gameplan or the coach.

If we played Scotland 10 games, 10 weeks in a row we'd probably win 8 or 9 out of 10, but my point is that on any given day, teams can have poor days at the office and underperform, its the nature of sport. You can't win them all.

.ak

NIMAN wrote: »

If we played Scotland 10 games, 10 weeks in a row we'd probably win 8 or 9 out of 10, but my point is that on any given day, teams can have poor days at the office and underperform, its the nature of sport. You can't win them all.

We've consistently under performed, and have displayed in some games what we are capable of by game plan and tactics alone.

P_1

One thing that I just can't comprehend is why we persist on playing unfamiliar combinations together when its been proven that these combinations work well together on the closest level to test level.

OldRio

k

NIMAN wrote: »

If we played Scotland 10 games, 10 weeks in a row we'd probably win 8 or 9 out of 10, but my point is that on any given day, teams can have poor days at the office and underperform, its the nature of sport. You can't win them all.

Thats grand then.
Turn up and give it a lash. We win 8 out of 10 so why worry about a loss or two.
Times have moved on.

awec

There were occasions today where to me Best's throws looked fine to me but nobody seemed to jump. Other times his throw was just off.

We need to work on the set piece, but it wasn't all Best's fault today.

Trojan

Declan Kidney: You have to pick the players with experience.

Declan Kidney: Summer tours are no time for experimentation.
Declan Kidney: The autumn internationals are no time for experimentation.
Declan Kidney: The Six Nations is no time for experimentation.

Declan Kidney: An out-half has 2 jobs: 1)playing out-half, and 2) place-kicking (because no other position can kick).

There are lots of reasons Irish rugby is in trouble, but many of them will be resolved in 86 days, 2 hours, 23 minutes and 31 seconds.

jacothelad

P_1 wrote: »

One thing that I just can't comprehend is why we persist on playing unfamiliar combinations together when its been proven that these combinations work well together on the closest level to test level.

Yes. Sexton / Reddan is a better combo than Sexton / Murray. Bringing on Reddan and then ROG - WHY?

Stheno

P_1 wrote: »

One thing that I just can't comprehend is why we persist on playing unfamiliar combinations together when its been proven that these combinations work well together on the closest level to test level.

Illustrated today by the difference between BOD/Earls and Jackson/Marshall and how they worked together.

awec wrote: »

There were occasions today where to me Best's throws looked fine to me but nobody seemed to jump. Other times his throw was just off.

We need to work on the set piece, but it wasn't all Best's fault today.

There were a few funnies in the Irish lineout today, one I remember the most was DOC seemingly running out of the front of it even before the ball was thrown.

jamiedav2011

Stheno wrote: »

Illustrated today by the difference between BOD/Earls and Jackson/Marshall and how they worked together.


There were a few funnies in the Irish lineout today, one I remember the most was DOC seemingly running out of the front of it even before the ball was thrown.

One of the times we kicked to the corner and Hamilton turned over he was the only one that jumped.