Neighbour has erected cctv cameras on telephone poles on the roadside

bb12

hi, a neighbour has recently erected cctv cameras on the telephone poles outside his home on the side of the road pointing both directions monitoring the roadway. i'm guessing this has got to be against some privacy law? who would i make a complaint to about this as I don't like the idea of my comings and goings on a public roadway being monitored by a private individual.

Paulw

Who owns the poles? ESB or Eircom? Start with them.

You could also make an enquiry at your local Garda station about the matter.

SB2013

You aren't entitled to privacy in a public place though are you?

fergal.b

You might be glad of them if your car or house was ever broken into.





.

Del2005

SB2013 wrote: »

You aren't entitled to privacy in a public place though are you?

No. Once the camera is not pointing in a direction that can't be seen from the road you have no right to privacy. Would living on a road with double deck buses driving past allow a camera by pointed towards an upstairs window?

But the owner of the pole won't be too happy having it vandalised.

bb12

SB2013 wrote: »

You aren't entitled to privacy in a public place though are you?

yes but its a private individual recording a public place. that can't be right. how do i know how he;s managing the data collected? that has got to violate the data protection act.

also he has erected the cameras not on his own property but outside it on public property. surely that can't be allowed either.

i just don't know who is the first port of call to contact...eircom who owns the poles, the council or the gardai?

intospace

Paulw wrote: »

Who owns the poles? ESB or Eircom? Start with them.

You could also make an enquiry at your local Garda station about the matter.

It's not a police matter.

Paulw

bb12 wrote: »

yes but its a private individual recording a public place. that can't be right.

There is no law prohibiting that. You have no explicit right to privacy in public, no matter who is doing the recording.

bb12 wrote: »

how do i know how he;s managing the data collected? that has got to violate the data protection act.

That can be a concern.

bb12 wrote: »

also he has erected the cameras not on his own property but outside it on public property. surely that can't be allowed either.

i just don't know who is the first port of call to contact...eircom who owns the poles, the council or the gardai?

Contact Eircom, if they own the pole, and ask them if they gave permission. If they didn't, then I am sure they will remove the offending items quite quickly.

I don't think there are any planning requirements, so the council would have nothing to do with it.

The Gardai may be interested, but then again, they may have no interest at all, since I can't directly see any law being broken.

coylemj

bb12 wrote: »

how do i know how he;s managing the data collected? that has got to violate the data protection act.

He is not collecting 'data' so is not subject to the data protection act.

An image or video of people coming and going along a public street is not 'data', otherwise every CCTV camera in every shop in the country would need to be registered with the Data Protection Commissioner and they are not.

RTE and TV3 every day of the week take videos of street situations for news items, a reporter standing outside the Criminal Courts in Parkgate St. for example, they are not collecting 'data'.

Paulw

coylemj wrote: »

He is not collecting 'data' so is not subject to the data protection act.

You're incorrect.

Recognisable images captured by CCTV systems are “personal data”. They are therefore subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Acts.

From - http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=242

CINCLANTFLT

coylemj wrote: »

He is not collecting 'data' so is not subject to the data protection act.

An image or video of people coming and going along a public street is not 'data', otherwise every CCTV camera in every shop in the country would need to be registered with the Data Protection Commissioner and they are not.

RTE and TV3 every day of the week take videos of street situations for news items, a reporter standing outside the Criminal Courts in Parkgate St. for example, they are not collecting 'data'.

"Recognisable images captured by CCTV systems are personal data. They are therefore subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Acts"
http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=242


Edit: snap! Same as what Paulw said...

valleyoftheunos

Paulw wrote: »

You're incorrect.

Recognisable images captured by CCTV systems are “personal data”. They are therefore subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Acts.

From - http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=242

CINCLANTFLT wrote: »

"Recognisable images captured by CCTV systems are personal data. They are therefore subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Acts"
http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=242


Edit: snap! Same as what Paulw said...

No. cctv isn't "personal data". The Data protection act 1988 defines personal data and only data or information within that definition are subject to the act.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/act/pub/0025/sec0001.html

information is only "personal data" is if it is capable as identifying you as you, by which I mean your name. your image can't do this on its own so its not Personal Data.

A further example would be if I had a list of all the birthdates of all the commenters on this thread. I can't identify them from that so its not personal data. If I also had a list of everyone's PPS numbers then I could use the birthdays to identify the posters so in that circumstance the birthdays' would be "Personal Data".

Chemical Burn

bb12 wrote: »

hi, a neighbour has recently erected cctv cameras on the telephone poles outside his home on the side of the road pointing both directions monitoring the roadway. i'm guessing this has got to be against some privacy law? who would i make a complaint to about this as I don't like the idea of my comings and goings on a public roadway being monitored by a private individual.

Protecting against scumbags, so long as they don't look into your property, then it's grand. CCTV cameras on houses often overlook the street, so you can't use that as an argument. If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear OP.

bb12

Chemical Burn wrote: »

Protecting against scumbags, so long as they don't look into your property, then it's grand. CCTV cameras on houses often overlook the street, so you can't use that as an argument. If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear OP.

as well as recording hundreds of metres of the public road, the cameras overlooks the entrance into my property. this is a rural area not a street. i don't want to feel like i'm on film everytime i'm near my property entrance and i don't want to feel like i'm being recorded everytime i leave or arrive home, especially when i don't know how the data he's recording is being used.

i can't believe there is no regulation to stop someone mounting a cctv camera on public property for his own personal private use. if that was the case then i could install a cctv camera on grafton st for myself. somehow i can't see that being allowed.


also he has half hidden the cameras amongst the ivy growing on the poles and has no notices anywhere to say cctv recording is in place. i thought you had to erect signs if you were using cctv?

i have no problem in him wanting to erect cameras on his own property and pointing to his own gateway to record intruders etc. i just think he's totally invading my space by placing the cameras outside his property and recording everything coming and going as well as overlooking my own property

Kristopherus

bb12 wrote: »

hi, a neighbour has recently erected cctv cameras on the telephone poles outside his home on the side of the road pointing both directions monitoring the roadway. i'm guessing this has got to be against some privacy law? who would i make a complaint to about this as I don't like the idea of my comings and goings on a public roadway being monitored by a private individual.

Why dont you ask him about it? If he had 2 nudes sitting across the road with the cameras pointing in the same direction as they are now, would you be complaining?

bb12

Kristopherus wrote: »

Why dont you ask him about it? If he had 2 nudes sitting across the road with the cameras pointing in the same direction as they are now, would you be complaining?

2 nudes? don't understand.

he's not a very approachable person and wouldn't be the most popular person in the area so talking to him about it is not an option unfortunately

Del2005

bb12 wrote: »

i can't believe there is no regulation to stop someone mounting a cctv camera on public property for his own personal private use. if that was the case then i could install a cctv camera on grafton st for myself. somehow i can't see that being allowed.

You seem to be confusing two issues here.

Your neighbour can mount a camera which is pointed at your house once it's not viewing anything which can't be viewed from a public place

I'm sure there is a law against attaching unauthorised items to public or private property, trespass and vandalism would be the ones I can think of. The owner of the pole won't be too happy that he's attaching cameras to it, so if you contact them they will remove it.

Littlehorny

These cameras will act as a deterent to any thieves patrolling our country roads maybe this grumpy neighbour has done you a free favour in a roundabout way?

Hair Bear

The law has changed recently re CCTV cameras.
1. The installer of these cameras must have a licence.
2. Anyone using cctv and recording must have a sign up stating that.
3. If the poles are belong to another party they have to gice permission - which they will not.
4. Check out: http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=242 [Data Protection Commission website]

Best wishes

coylemj

CINCLANTFLT wrote: »

"Recognisable images captured by CCTV systems are personal data. They are therefore subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Acts"
http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=242

Personal Data is defined as follows...

“personal data” means data relating to a living individual who can be identified either from the data or from the data in conjunction with other information in the possession of the data controller;

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/act/pub/0025/sec0001.html

An image or video of an individual walking down the street therefore would not by itself constitute personal data and as it is the image alone that is being collected by the OP's neighbour, it does not involve personal data and is not covered by the DPA.

Just to be clear - if someone looks at the image collected by the OP's neighbour and says 'that's Jimmy Murphy!', that does not make the image personal data because that person already knows Jimmy Murphy and what he looks like. Only if a compete stranger can identify the individual using the information collected does it constitute personal data and is then covered under the DPA.

Ken.

Balaclava on and take them down. If he puts them up again take them down again.

meathstevie

coylemj wrote: »

Personal Data is defined as follows...

“personal data” means data relating to a living individual who can be identified either from the data or from the data in conjunction with other information in the possession of the data controller;

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/act/pub/0025/sec0001.html

An image or video of an individual walking down the street therefore would not by itself constitute personal data and as it is the image alone that is being collected by the OP's neighbour, it does not involve personal data and is not covered by the DPA.

Just to be clear - if someone looks at the image collected by the OP's neighbour and says 'that's Jimmy Murphy!', that does not make the image personal data because that person already knows Jimmy Murphy and what he looks like. Only if a compete stranger can identify the individual using the information collected does it constitute personal data and is then covered under the DPA.

By virtue of the definition above the neighbour with the cameras is collecting data about the OP. He has other information in his possession whereby the OP can be identified; namely the knowledge that his neighbour is his neighbour.

Victor

coylemj, I think you have to acknowledge there is a difference between a news crew occasionally taking footage at the Criminal Courts and a neighbour recording the entrance to your property 24x7.

coylemj

meathstevie wrote: »

By virtue of the definition above the neighbour with the cameras is collecting data about the OP. He has other information in his possession whereby the OP can be identified; namely the knowledge that his neighbour is his neighbour.

That information (that his neighbour is his neighbour) exists in his head and is not part of the information that is being collected.

By your logic, if I see my neighbour going into the local pub, I have collected 'personal data' about him and am subject to the DPA.

What the neighbour is collecting is a series of still images or video clips, the identity of the individuals whose movements are being captured does not form part of the data being collected therefore I say it does not constitute 'personal data' within the meaning of the DPA because the images and/or videos by themselves do not identify the people involved.

As I see it, the test is this: if the data being collected was handed over to a total stranger from the other side of the world, could that person use the information to identify the individuals in the data being collected by the OP's neighbour? I say it could not.

Doop

Contact your Local Authority Planning Office they will advise if planning permission is required for such. You will most likely be requested to send in photos of the property with the cameras.

I would imagine there is a planning issue here as your neighbor has gone beyond erecting CCTV on his own property.

I dont see what right he/she has to monitor the comings and goings of a public road. If it was a private estate and the cameras were erected by the residents association it would be a different matter.

coylemj

Victor wrote: »

coylemj, I think you have to acknowledge there is a difference between a news crew occasionally taking footage at the Criminal Courts and a neighbour recording the entrance to your property 24x7.

The OP didn't say the camera is pointing at his or anybody else's entrance, this is what he said....

bb12 wrote: »

hi, a neighbour has recently erected cctv cameras on the telephone poles outside his home on the side of the road pointing both directions monitoring the roadway.

If he pointed a camera specifically at my front door then certainly there is a difference, if all he's doing is recording who is going up and down the street then I wouldn't see any difference. But at the same time I think it's a bit high handed to erect cameras on a utility pole so I'd certainly call the company involved and get them to remove the equipment.

listermint

Im still under the presumption OP that you would be crying into your tea if your house was broken into and the cameras were pulled down according to your, lets be honest unfounded fear of these cameras recording a public road.

Do you know your neighbour ?

Why not chat with them ?

There is a camera pointing at my car all day long Ive no idea what the lad does with the data, do i care ? No because id pop over and grab CCTV should anything happen to it.

I think your fears on this matter may be less than rational.

Dionysius2

Hair Bear wrote: »

The law has changed recently re CCTV cameras.
1. The installer of these cameras must have a licence.
2. Anyone using cctv and recording must have a sign up stating that.
3. If the poles are belong to another party they have to gice permission - which they will not.
4. Check out: http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=242 [Data Protection Commission website]

Best wishes

This seems very constructive.
And the enforcing authority for this legislation is....?

bb12

listermint wrote: »

Im still under the presumption OP that you would be crying into your tea if your house was broken into and the cameras were pulled down according to your, lets be honest unfounded fear of these cameras recording a public road.

Do you know your neighbour ?

Why not chat with them ?

There is a camera pointing at my car all day long Ive no idea what the lad does with the data, do i care ? No because id pop over and grab CCTV should anything happen to it.

I think your fears on this matter may be less than rational.

I have my own security measures to stop my house being broken into which don't interfere with any of my neighbours, so no I don't think I'd be "crying into my tea" if my house was broken into it.

As I stated earlier this is not an approachable neighbour. The cameras as well as recording the public road are also overlooking the entrance to my property.

I don't want to feel as if I'm being monitored every time I enter or exit my property. In my mind, the neighbour might as well be standing outside my gate in person 24/7 watching my movements.

Rhys Essien

OP,give the Gardai a call.I was told by a Garda Sergeant before that a camera cannot be pointed at your neighbours property.I agree that your neighbour should not be allowed to have your comings and goings on record.He could of at least told you in the first place.

listermint

bb12 wrote: »

I have my own security measures to stop my house being broken into which don't interfere with any of my neighbours, so no I don't think I'd be "crying into my tea" if my house was broken into it.

As I stated earlier this is not an approachable neighbour. The cameras as well as recording the public road are also overlooking the entrance to my property.

I don't want to feel as if I'm being monitored every time I enter or exit my property. In my mind, the neighbour might as well be standing outside my gate in person 24/7 watching my movements.

I would imagine you would. CCTV is very popular for identifying thieves and getting your stuff back.

Also as stated already He is not recording your property. He is recording a public road which he can do as he pleases. Just so happens your entrance to this road is in view.

Do you have a problem with shops recording the high street. After all these are private entities too.

I think you would have a hard time living in any populated city because CCTV is everywhere, its legal its a fact of current living. As long as he isnt recording over your fence and into your bedroom windows then frankly there is very little stopping him recording the public road.

Rhys Essien

listermint wrote: »

I would imagine you would. CCTV is very popular for identifying thieves and getting your stuff back.

Also as stated already He is not recording your property. He is recording a public road which he can do as he pleases. Just so happens your entrance to this road is in view.

Do you have a problem with shops recording the high street. After all these are private entities too.

I think you would have a hard time living in any populated city because CCTV is everywhere, its legal its a fact of current living. As long as he isnt recording over your fence and into your bedroom windows then frankly there is very little stopping him recording the public road.

So you have no problem with an ordinary joe fixing cameras to ESB or Eircom property which are also not even on his property?

And how would you feel if every other randomer started doing it?

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

The OP didn't say the camera is pointing at his or anybody else's entrance, this is what he said....

Um ...

bb12 wrote: »

as well as recording hundreds of metres of the public road, the cameras overlooks the entrance into my property.

Think_then_talk

We have cctv in a house set into flats, we have 6 units installed,hall,stairs,main door,when it came to the back of the house the yard we had to come to an agreement with our neighbours to block out their parts of the yard on the camera's so that we were not able to recording them.
However not so long ago their has been a number of breakins next door "they" came into our yard seen on cctv going over our wall to next door then the sound of breaking glass.
Now nextdoor they don't mind if we record them.:rolleyes:
Op you might find this usefull >
http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Case_Study_8_-_2005/327.htm

gavindublin

Chances of line of being further than 10 feet are more than slim. So your hundreds of metres is ridiculous. How many gardens down are you?? Is it wired or wireless? Is there an infra red shield covering the front? I'd bet it's a toys r us set up, used as a deterrent. The system you think he has is prob about 3 grands worth

listermint

Rhys Essien wrote: »

So you have no problem with an ordinary joe fixing cameras to ESB or Eircom property which are also not even on his property?

And how would you feel if every other randomer started doing it?

Couldnt care less. You do realise most CCTV is never ever looked at. Its hours of mindless boring footage only ever examined if there is an incident.

bb12

gavindublin wrote: »

Chances of line of being further than 10 feet are more than slim. So your hundreds of metres is ridiculous. How many gardens down are you?? Is it wired or wireless? Is there an infra red shield covering the front? I'd bet it's a toys r us set up, used as a deterrent. The system you think he has is prob about 3 grands worth

no it's an expensive looking set up with a couple of sensors below the camera lens itself. they've spent the last couple of weekends setting the system up so it looks like he's put a lot of money into it. i would reckon he's easily spent a couple of k on it.

bb12

listermint wrote: »

I would imagine you would. CCTV is very popular for identifying thieves and getting your stuff back.

as I've said before, i have my security measures in place in the case of break ins on my own property. none of which interfere with any of my neighbours.

Rhys Essien

OP,What is your neighbour protecting/involved with.?

Is he storing bars of gold in his garage or what?

bb12

Rhys Essien wrote: »

OP,What is your neighbour protecting/involved with.?

Is he storing bars of gold in his garage or what?

i don't know and to be honest i could care less. i just don't want my life being interfered with because of the actions he chooses to take to protect his property. he could easily install his cctv inside his own property and monitor his own perimeters without it intruding on my privacy.

LoveCoke

coylemj wrote: »

He is not collecting 'data' so is not subject to the data protection act.

An image or video of people coming and going along a public street is not 'data', otherwise every CCTV camera in every shop in the country would need to be registered with the Data Protection Commissioner and they are not.

RTE and TV3 every day of the week take videos of street situations for news items, a reporter standing outside the Criminal Courts in Parkgate St. for example, they are not collecting 'data'.

CCTV camera in every shop in the country would need to be registered with the Data Protection Commissioner and they are not.

the cameras in the shops are colectig data and have to give anyone who asks a copy of their images in the shop. also any company that has CCTv should have a sign



Personal Data

gavindublin

LoveCoke wrote: »

the cameras in the shops are colectig data and have to give anyone who asks a copy of their images in the shop

No they don't. Your solicitor or a garda only get a copy. Your disclaimer is at the front door, if you don't like it don't come in

MadsL

Rhys Essien wrote: »

OP,What is your neighbour protecting/involved with.?

Is he storing bars of gold in his garage or what?

Nice of him to erect very visible CCTV cameras to advertise that he has something worth stealing. Idiot.

OP - make a complaint to the Data Protection Commissioner, you would be well within your rights to complain.

Alex Salmon

gavindublin wrote: »

No they don't. Your solicitor or a garda only get a copy. Your disclaimer is at the front door, if you don't like it don't come in

There is no obligation to use a solicitor.

Scortho

Also get onto the utility company. They don't like anyone interfering with their poles.

Do you know who installed them? Was it a company? very few people wound spend a couple of k on cctv and install it themselves. If you do know what company check out the psa as well to see if they're licensed. They love going to town on unlicensed installers and the person who uses one can be fined as well.

Him having cameras looking onto the road or even onto you're driveway isn't illegal.
Him mounting them on someone else's property is.

denver62002

bb12 wrote: »

who would i make a complaint to about this as I don't like the idea of my comings and goings on a public roadway being monitored by a private individual.

Why don't you start by just telling your neighbour that you don't like the Idea rather than complaining to someone that could get that poor person in trouble. he might have his own reason for having it there. It might help you in future too.

gavindublin

Alex Salmon wrote: »

There is no obligation to use a solicitor.

And there is no obligation to hand over a copy of footage. You won't get it without either of those requesting it

LoveCoke

gavindublin wrote: »

No they don't. Your solicitor or a garda only get a copy. Your disclaimer is at the front door, if you don't like it don't come in

incorrect. on cctv in shop = entitled to copy

gavindublin

Again read my post. CCTV in use in this store = like it or lump it. Walk into a retailer tomorrow and try it.

Del2005

bb12 wrote: »

i don't know and to be honest i could care less. i just don't want my life being interfered with because of the actions he chooses to take to protect his property. he could easily install his cctv inside his own property and monitor his own perimeters without it intruding on my privacy.

Did you contact the owner of the pole yet?

LoveCoke

gavindublin wrote: »

Again read my post. CCTV in use in this store = like it or lump it. Walk into a retailer tomorrow and try it.

That is not a disclaimer as you seem to think and do not even know what a disclaimer is. you are entitled to a copy. The sign on the door does not take that entitlement

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=&fn=/documents/FAQ2012/CCTVFAQ.htm#3
6.3 What if I am asked for a copy of CCTV footage?

Any person whose image has been recorded has a right to be given a copy of the information recorded. To exercise that right, a person must make an application in writing. A data controller may charge up to €6.35 for responding to such a request and must respond within 40 days. This will, of course, only apply if the recording has been retained and is available at the time the request is made.

So - like it or lump it


6.1 What issues surround the use of CCTV?

All usage of CCTV other than in a purely domestic context must be undertaken in compliance with the requirements of the Data Protection Acts. Extensive guidance on this issue is available at http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=m&fn=/documents/guidance/cctv.htm. In summary all uses of CCTV must be proportionate and for a specific purpose. As CCTV infringes the privacy of the persons captured in the images there must be a genuine reason for installing such a system. If installing such a system, it is required that the purpose for its use be displayed in a prominent position. In a shop or store context this would normally be at the entrance.