What are the security on Luas lines for?

denver62002

Hello All,

There was a situation on the Luas the other day that came into mind now, so I'm posting it here to see if anyone else faced a similar situation.

I was travelling with my wife accompanying her to work from Georges Dock to The point theatre on Thursday evening on the luas. That was the day when "Example" was at the O2. The Carry on was ridiculous. There was a group of 10-12 youngsters in the tram aged about 12 -16 drinking and disturbing other people. They were falling over other people, were slagging old folks and not giving up seats for them. There was a tourist lady with her luggage looking to get off the tram at her a stop and a fella was tugging her luggage while the other one pulled his pants down and was flashing his !"£$%^&*(. :eek: The worst part was that there were 3 Luas security on the tram and they just watched all this. :mad:

Why is there security in the tram if they let this happen?

corktina

did you complain to Veolia? It wont do any good ranting on here.

denver62002

corktina wrote: »

did you complain to Veolia? It wont do any good ranting on here.

What is Veolia?

LXFlyer

The company that runs LUAS.

Check out www.luas.ie for contact details.

corktina

they operate the Luas

carlmango11

Still though he has a point. Plus considering representatives of Veolia witnessed the whole thing he shouldn't really need to complain.

corktina

thats what he would be complaining about!

carlmango11

corktina wrote: »

thats what he would be complaining about!

Oh right! I thought you meant complain about the behaviour of the passengers

Jamie2k9

I rather passengers drinking any day over a slapper spraying hair spary in her hair, people couldn't get away faster.

LLU

They're there to harass and intimidate quiet sober well dressed people who may have underpaid their fare, or stayed on for a stop too many - provided said passenger is not too well built or assertive, of course.

corktina

Really? that would be Revenue Protection not Security I'd imagine. But hey, lets not let the truth get in the way of a rant in favour of fraudulent passngers!

monument

corktina wrote: »

did you complain to Veolia? It wont do any good ranting on here.

You think ranting to Veolia will do more than posting here?

mikemac1

denver62002 wrote: »

Why is there security in the tram if they let this happen?

Probably under orders from management not to do anything.

They had to pay out 10k to lying junkie in Connolly Station recently.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=83209707

Losty Dublin

monument wrote: »

You think ranting to Veolia will do more than posting here?

If they rant to Veolia they don't get infractions aplenty.

Unless you work for them as well

corktina

monument wrote: »

You think ranting to Veolia will do more than posting here?

Really I'm surprised at that post. I didn't say he should RANT to Veolia, I said he should COMPLAIN to them, two different things entirely.

Markcheese

Would vieolia be better off scrapping ineffective security gards (or at least half of them) and funding some real Gardai who work on Luas and their stops full time ... A bit like transport police in uk,

denver62002

Markcheese wrote: »

Would vieolia be better off scrapping ineffective security gards (or at least half of them) and funding some real Gardai who work on Luas and their stops full time ... A bit like transport police in uk,

that would be appropriate for scum like these..

foggy_lad

Markcheese wrote: »

Would vieolia be better off scrapping ineffective security gards (or at least half of them) and funding some real Gardai who work on Luas and their stops full time ... A bit like transport police in uk,

Will you pay an extra 5% in taxes or massive rises in fares to pay for q transport police?

I was waiting on the luas earlier at jervis tad at least 5 of those stt guards were preventing one person from boarding trams. The person was saying he had a ticket but they weren't having any of it. He did not look like your average scumbag but maybe he was known to veolia for fare evasion or something more serious? Is this a good use of resources for an hour? Was it worth it or value for money to keep that person off the trams?

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Will you pay an extra 5% in taxes or massive rises in fares to pay for q transport police?

I was waiting on the luas earlier at jervis tad at least 5 of those stt guards were preventing one person from boarding trams. The person was saying he had a ticket but they weren't having any of it. He did not look like your average scumbag but maybe he was known to veolia for fare evasion or something more serious? Is this a good use of resources for an hour? Was it worth it or value for money to keep that person off the trams?

Well Foggy,what if this person was a known paedophile or sexual deviant of the type you so comprehensively described some time back....perhaps he has a Court Order directing him to stay off the Luas...do you know..?

I rather suspect,that,yet again it's an opportunity for You to take a pop at the STT Staff.

steamengine

Veolia run a very slack system as on the majority of trams there is no security or service personnel. Kids being kids will take advantage of that situation. I reckon if Dublin Bus ran that route, there would be little or no messing as these kids would have to run the gauntlet past the driver first.

Back in the old days 'scutting' was the 'in' thing in the city - it's just gone more upmarket !

denver62002

steamengine wrote: »

V I reckon if Dublin Bus ran that route, there would be little or no messing as these kids would have to run the gauntlet past the driver first.

Back in the old days 'scutting' was the 'in' thing in the city - it's just gone more upmarket !

I dont understand why should anyone accept things like these happening at all? If you look at this situation only there was a tourist who definitely wont be going back and saying good things about Dublin/Ireland, and a senior Citizen who was harassed. If this is on the increase every year imagine in the next 20-30 years

mikemac1

foggy_lad wrote: »

I was waiting on the luas earlier at jervis tad at least 5 of those stt guards were preventing one person from boarding trams.


He did not look like your average scumbag

Exactly the kind of people that STT and Veoila like to tackle.

The ordinary office worker type who won't talk back

denver62002

mikemac1 wrote: »

Exactly the kind of people that STT and Veoila like to tackle.

The ordinary office worker type who won't talk back

Amen to that..

Del2005

denver62002 wrote: »

Hello All,

There was a situation on the Luas the other day that came into mind now, so I'm posting it here to see if anyone else faced a similar situation.

I was travelling with my wife accompanying her to work from Georges Dock to The point theatre on Thursday evening on the luas. That was the day when "Example" was at the O2. The Carry on was ridiculous. There was a group of 10-12 youngsters in the tram aged about 12 -16 drinking and disturbing other people. They were falling over other people, were slagging old folks and not giving up seats for them. There was a tourist lady with her luggage looking to get off the tram at her a stop and a fella was tugging her luggage while the other one pulled his pants down and was flashing his !"£$%^&*(. :eek: The worst part was that there were 3 Luas security on the tram and they just watched all this. :mad:

Why is there security in the tram if they let this happen?

Because they can't do anything about it. It's illegal to remove minors from public transport and the Gardaí won't respond, as they can't do much either. The Gardaí maybe could remove them, but then they'd need about 30+ officers to bring them home as you can't leave intoxicated minors alone on the streets.

Blame the bleeding hearts and lawyers, not the workers having to deal with the crap everyday.

steamengine

denver62002 wrote: »

I dont understand why should anyone accept things like these happening at all? If you look at this situation only there was a tourist who definitely wont be going back and saying good things about Dublin/Ireland, and a senior Citizen who was harassed. If this is on the increase every year imagine in the next 20-30 years

Yep, and you are right to point this up on a public forum, but I've lost count of the number of Luas threads of a similar vein. My point is that on the Luas when it stops, all doors open and there is no control over who boards and whether or not they have a ticket - so it would seem to me that is the point to start from.

If these kids are barred from the Luas then the subsequent harassment can be avoided. The more people point this up on public fora then then hopefully Veoila will be pressurised into sorting it out.

ResearchWill

Del2005 wrote: »

Because they can't do anything about it. It's illegal to remove minors from public transport and the Gardaí won't respond, as they can't do much either. The Gardaí maybe could remove them, but then they'd need about 30+ officers to bring them home as you can't leave intoxicated minors alone on the streets.

Blame the bleeding hearts and lawyers, not the workers having to deal with the crap everyday.

Can you point out where it is illegal to remove minors from public transport, does this include if they have a knife, or have committed an assault, or are intoxicated to such an extent they are a danger to themselves or others.

denver62002

ResearchWill wrote: »

Can you point out where it is illegal to remove minors from public transport, does this include if they have a knife, or have committed an assault, or are intoxicated to such an extent they are a danger to themselves or others.

That's a good point....

denver62002

Del2005 wrote: »

Because they can't do anything about it. It's illegal to remove minors from public transport and the Gardaí won't respond, as they can't do much either. The Gardaí maybe could remove them, but then they'd need about 30+ officers to bring them home as you can't leave intoxicated minors alone on the streets.

Blame the bleeding hearts and lawyers, not the workers having to deal with the crap everyday.

I don't think there is anything illegal in it. If its on Dublin bus, the driver just calls the Gardai they take it from them.
Being kids cannot be an excuse for every B.S that they do. If the government cannot control kids make laws to punish the parents so they control their own kids. :pac:

GreeBo

maybe something to do with duty of care?
If you dump out a bunch of kids early and something happens to them, maybe a liability issue?

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well Foggy,what if this person was a known paedophile or sexual deviant of the type you so comprehensively described some time back....perhaps he has a Court Order directing him to stay off the Luas...do you know..?

No, I do not know why the person was prevented from boarding the luas but i suspected there may have been some previous case of fare evasion or pickpocketing or anti-social behaviour involved.

I rather suspect,that,yet again it's an opportunity for You to take a pop at the STT Staff.

Not at all an opportunity to take any pop at on the ground security staff but I do wonder at luas policy in such situations and the effectiveness and costs of 5 security guards at one stop for almost an hour just for one person. wouldn't it be more effective to let him travel but travel with him and patrol the line while watching him and catch him if he committed any offence?

Del2005

ResearchWill wrote: »

Can you point out where it is illegal to remove minors from public transport, does this include if they have a knife, or have committed an assault, or are intoxicated to such an extent they are a danger to themselves or others.

It was during my Driver CPC that I saw it. Can't find anything about it now as I can never find anything when searching the Statute Book.

ResearchWill

Del2005 wrote: »

It was during my Driver CPC that I saw it. Can't find anything about it now as I can never find anything when searching the Statute Book.

I can well imagine a driver being told, to call back up etc., but I can think of no blanket legal requirement to allow minors on public transport, especially if they are intoxicated, or armed or stealing. In fact I would think there is an obligation to deal with the matter.

Take an example, intoxicated children, pushing passengers, driver does nothing, this goes on for 30 mins, nothing done, bus/luas stops person gets on they are pushed they fall back onto platform, serious head injury, the lawyers would have a field day on the company and rightly so.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

No, I do not know why the person was prevented from boarding the luas but i suspected there may have been some previous case of fare evasion or pickpocketing or anti-social behaviour involved.

Not at all an opportunity to take any pop at on the ground security staff but I do wonder at luas policy in such situations and the effectiveness and costs of 5 security guards at one stop for almost an hour just for one person. wouldn't it be more effective to let him travel but travel with him and patrol the line while watching him and catch him if he committed any offence?

You suspected.....Hmmmm...yet earlier on you said he did'nt "Look like your average scumbag".

The reality is you know absolutely nothing of this incident,the individual concerned,the STT and Veiloa staff involved and/or the reasons for their particular course of action.

You are second guessing and perhaps this once it's best that we were'nt expected to take that as Gospel !!

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

You suspected.....Hmmmm...yet earlier on you said he did'nt "Look like your average scumbag".

The reality is you know absolutely nothing of this incident,the individual concerned,the STT and Veiloa staff involved and/or the reasons for their particular course of action.

You are second guessing and perhaps this once it's best that we were'nt expected to take that as Gospel !!

I suspected because of the persistence of the security people in keeping the person off the trams. are they going to be at every tram stop from now on to watch for this individual??

AlekSmart

ResearchWill wrote: »

I can well imagine a driver being told, to call back up etc., but I can think of no blanket legal requirement to allow minors on public transport, especially if they are intoxicated, or armed or stealing. In fact I would think there is an obligation to deal with the matter.

Take an example, intoxicated children, pushing passengers, driver does nothing, this goes on for 30 mins, nothing done, bus/luas stops person gets on they are pushed they fall back onto platform, serious head injury, the lawyers would have a field day on the company and rightly so.

The head of this particular pin,Research Will,revolves around the children actually gaining admission to your vehicle.

Once the child is on board your vehicle,then both the Busdriver and Vehicle Owner/Operator must observe a somewhat different set of parameters relating to what actions they can or cannot take.

As a Busdriver,I must not put a minor off my bus in any situation without first ensuring it is into the care of a Responsible Adult,Parent or Guardian.

This situation merely reflects the great weight which Courts will give to accusations of improper conduct towards a "child",including putting them off a bus.

Even Gardai are quite significantly hamstrung in relation to general misbehaving by "children",with quite a degree of extra paperwork and administrative work attendant upon securing HSE/Probation & Welfare personnell to act in loco parentis etc

The key,for a Busdriver,is in keeping these disruptive children off the bus in the first instance...then they are not the Drivers problem.....once on-board,they most certainly are...and are well aware of this :mad:

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

I suspected because of the persistence of the security people in keeping the person off the trams. are they going to be at every tram stop from now on to watch for this individual??

Doubtless whilst being observed and chided by your good self on each and every occasion..?

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Doubtless whilst being observed and chided by your good self on each and every occasion..?

You don't know much(or anything at all) about me then.

monument

AlekSmart wrote: »

Doubtless whilst being observed and chided by your good self on each and every occasion..?

Please keep away from personalising the discussion.

And the two of you can cut it out - it's going nowhere good.

Mod.

Del2005

ResearchWill wrote: »

I can well imagine a driver being told, to call back up etc., but I can think of no blanket legal requirement to allow minors on public transport, especially if they are intoxicated, or armed or stealing. In fact I would think there is an obligation to deal with the matter.

Take an example, intoxicated children, pushing passengers, driver does nothing, this goes on for 30 mins, nothing done, bus/luas stops person gets on they are pushed they fall back onto platform, serious head injury, the lawyers would have a field day on the company and rightly so.

The law wasn't made with feral children we have today in mind.

AlekSmart wrote: »

The head of this particular pin,Research Will,revolves around the children actually gaining admission to your vehicle.

Once the child is on board your vehicle,then both the Busdriver and Vehicle Owner/Operator must observe a somewhat different set of parameters relating to what actions they can or cannot take.

As a Busdriver,I must not put a minor off my bus in any situation without first ensuring it is into the care of a Responsible Adult,Parent or Guardian.

This situation merely reflects the great weight which Courts will give to accusations of improper conduct towards a "child",including putting them off a bus.

Even Gardai are quite significantly hamstrung in relation to general misbehaving by "children",with quite a degree of extra paperwork and administrative work attendant upon securing HSE/Probation & Welfare personnell to act in loco parentis etc

The key,for a Busdriver,is in keeping these disruptive children off the bus in the first instance...then they are not the Drivers problem.....once on-board,they most certainly are...and are well aware of this :mad:

Thanks, it's been a while since I did the CPC.

Since there is no controlled access to the Luas there in lies the problem. The STT guys can't remove them and it's too much work for the Gardaí. I'm not blaming the Gardaí, as they know that even if they do remove them nothing will happen and they'll be back at it tomorrow.

ShadowFox

ResearchWill wrote: »

Can you point out where it is illegal to remove minors from public transport, does this include if they have a knife, or have committed an assault, or are intoxicated to such an extent they are a danger to themselves or others.

I dont know if its illegal as such but i do know its an unwritten rule regarding public transport It comes from about 10 years ago (maybe longer or shorter) a minor was refused travel on Dublin Bus because s/he had no money to pay the fair said minor walked home but was badly beaten (if memory serves me right) The parents sued Dublin Bus and were awarded a large amount ever since that no minor can or will be refused travel on public transport

ShadowFox

foggy_lad wrote: »

No, I do not know why the person was prevented from boarding the luas but i suspected there may have been some previous case of fare evasion or pickpocketing or anti-social behaviour involved.

Not at all an opportunity to take any pop at on the ground security staff but I do wonder at luas policy in such situations and the effectiveness and costs of 5 security guards at one stop for almost an hour just for one person. wouldn't it be more effective to let him travel but travel with him and patrol the line while watching him and catch him if he committed any offence?

Have you ever watched Road Wars/other cop shows on tv and see how many cops arrest someone ? This is done in this way to minimize injury to person or cops Im not saying it justifies 5 STT to one member of the public but I dont know who or what this member of the public was being stopped for There could have been 1000 reasons was he mentally unstable was he known to be violent was he known to carry weapons was he trying to jump in front of a Luas The only ones that know the answer to this are the 5 members of STT and the member of the public being refused travel