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nany state based on morals

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    #62
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Why do people think they have to dictate to others what they should and shouldn't do?

    Power mad control freaks??


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    #63
    Lou.m
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,532 ✭✭✭Lou.m


    IM0 wrote: »
    as oppose to the warm fuzziness youre hiding in of unfounded notions, something is unfounded untill it is proven to be 100% and no statistic will ever say that something causes something because the truth is alot of assumptions have been made to arrive at the data they arrived at.


    Read my above post. It is a founded fact. Your arrogance is astounding. Thousands of brilliant minds working for years , thousands of legal minds working for years to construct a case all to get the damned truth printed on the side of a paper packet to save your ignorant ass so you don't die horribly!
    It has been proven. These are not assumptions but hypothesis.....which they proved one by one to make up a theory which they could again prove to make up a proven model.

    Scientists are not using statistics. That was not what they used to understand the the fact that carcinogens in cigarettes cause mutations in human cells that result in cancer.

    The fact that smoking is a leading cause of cancer is based of proven hypothesis making up a proven theory which makes a proven model.

    If you don't want to have a high risk of wheeling a canister of oxygen around stop smoking.

    If you want to debate that risk...I'll take that bet!


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    #64
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    I'd like to see smoking banned. I couldn't care less if people want to give themselves lung cancer or other diseases but I'm sick of seeing hundreds of cigarette butts on every street I walk down.


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    #65
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    An ideal scenario would have JS Mill's harm principle in action in society. It's a wonderful theory, the only problem is that it's a rare theory that survives interaction with the human race


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    #66
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    I'd like to see a Europe-wide ban on the manufacture, sale and supply of tobacco products, with massive penalties for those caught attempting to smuggle them. I know some people would whine about the "nany state" (sic) taking away their "right" to ingest the highly carcinogenic chemicals to which they are addicted, but shouldn't the families of smokers have rights too? Like the right not to have to watch someone they love fading away as a result of a smoking-related illness.


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    #67
    Dwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Dwork


    Can I book a place in the queue to give them a kick, in the sack.


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    #68
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    RayM wrote: »
    I'd like to see a Europe-wide ban on the manufacture, sale and supply of tobacco products, with massive penalties for those caught attempting to smuggle them. I know some people would whine about the "nany state" (sic) taking away their "right" to ingest the highly carcinogenic chemicals to which they are addicted, but shouldn't the families of smokers have rights too? Like the right not to have to watch someone they love fading away as a result of a smoking-related illness.
    What about individual liberty?


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    #69
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    P_1 wrote: »
    What about individual liberty?

    What specific liberty are we talking about here? When did smoking become a matter of individual liberty? People smoke because they're addicted, and because giving up is incredibly difficult. The "freedom" argument is bullshit. If anything, the freedom of the smoker is being hampered by their addiction.


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    #70
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    RayM wrote: »

    What specific liberty are we talking about here? When did smoking become a matter of individual liberty? People smoke because they're addicted, and because giving up is incredibly difficult. The "freedom" argument is bullsh[COLOR="Black"]i[/COLOR]t. If anything, the freedom of the smoker is being hampered by their addiction.
    People have the liberty to make their own choices in life for better or worse and nobody should have the right to tell people what choices they should and should not make


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    #71
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    Lol at this thread.

    Who's "nany" anyway?

    This is the first google result https://twitter.com/NanyMTV .... I'd get in the sack with her...


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    #72
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    P_1 wrote: »
    People have the liberty to make their own choices in life for better or worse and nobody should have the right to tell people what choices they should and should not make

    No, the liberty of the individual surely must be tempered by the public good.


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    #73
    somefeen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭somefeen


    IM0 wrote: »
    ah the language of the the new religion. statistics!!

    all hail statistics!!

    you have a 50% chance of everything in life, stuff will or wont happen ;)
    regardless of what statistics will have you believe

    No, that's binomial probability.

    It only works in cases with two possible outcomes e.g. flipping a coin where the probability of either heads or tails is equal to 0.5.

    We know smoking contributes to cancer risk because a statistically significant amount of smokers get cancer.
    In this case the probability of the numbers of smokers who get cancer being a coincidence is <0.005.

    You're the one who dragged statistics into this


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    #74
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    WileyCoyote wrote: »

    No, the liberty of the individual surely must be tempered by the public good.
    Well yes that's where the harm principle comes into things


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    #75
    somefeen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭somefeen


    RayM wrote: »
    I'd like to see a Europe-wide ban on the manufacture, sale and supply of tobacco products, with massive penalties for those caught attempting to smuggle them. I know some people would whine about the "nany state" (sic) taking away their "right" to ingest the highly carcinogenic chemicals to which they are addicted, but shouldn't the families of smokers have rights too? Like the right not to have to watch someone they love fading away as a result of a smoking-related illness.

    If you did that no one would bother smoking.
    Its actually a really **** drug and it wouldn't be worth the risk of prosecution to get it.
    Thats all they have to do, ban it and no one will start smoking fags, because why smoke tobacco when you could smoke weed with the same legal consequences?


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    #76
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    P_1 wrote: »
    People have the liberty to make their own choices in life for better or worse and nobody should have the right to tell people what choices they should and should not make

    You've missed my point completely. Smoking isn't a choice. It's an addiction.


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    #77
    bedrock#1
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭bedrock#1


    RayM wrote: »
    You've missed my point completely. Smoking isn't a choice. It's an addiction.

    Is it not a question of logic? How can you be addicted to something before you do it?? The initial choice to smoke is exactly that - a choice.


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    #78
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    bedrock#1 wrote: »
    Is it not a question of logic? How can you be addicted to something before you do it?? The initial choice to smoke is exactly that - a choice.

    And one usually made by people who are legally too young to make such a choice.


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    #79
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    RayM wrote: »

    You've missed my point completely. Smoking isn't a choice. It's an addiction.
    For some it is. For others its an enjoyable past time


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    #80
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    RayM wrote: »

    And one usually made by people who are legally too young to make such a choice.
    Again, by some not by all. Why punish the majority for the actions of the minority?


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    #81
    bedrock#1
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭bedrock#1


    RayM wrote: »
    And one usually made by people who are legally too young to make such a choice.

    What about the people you aren't? What about parental responsibility? Also, the attribution of 'responsibility' to children is not a fixed idea. 'Doli incapax' varies wildly around the world. It used to be 7 here, now 12. How can we say that on the one hand children aren't capable of knowing right from wrong yet claim they are capable of knowing right from wrong?


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    #82
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    P_1 wrote: »
    For some it is. For others its an enjoyable past time

    I've yet to encounter a regular smoker for whom it is merely an enjoyable pastime. It's disingenuous to suggest that otherwise intelligent people would partake in such a dangerous habit simply because they find it pleasurable and not because they're satisfying a severe craving.
    P_1 wrote: »
    Again, by some not by all. Why punish the majority for the actions of the minority?

    The average age for starting smoking in Ireland is 16.4 years. And while we're talking about punishment, it seems quite unfair to punish someone (via a serious addiction, serious long-term health problems and then a high risk of a lingering, painful death) for a decision taken when they were very young.
    bedrock#1 wrote: »
    How can we say that on the one hand children aren't capable of knowing right from wrong yet claim they are capable of knowing right from wrong?

    The decision to start smoking is a life-changing (and usually life-shortening) one. Can you really trust someone to make an informed decision about something so profound when they're only a teenager, and the consequences of their actions are probably a few decades away? Teenagers are idiots. I mean, I bought a Coldplay album when I was 18. Would it be fair if that decision was to follow me through the rest of my life?


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    #83
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    RayM wrote: »
    I've yet to encounter a regular smoker for whom it is merely an enjoyable pastime. It's disingenuous to suggest that otherwise intelligent people would partake in such a dangerous habit simply because they find it pleasurable and not because they're satisfying a severe craving.

    I'm sure you'll find a nice intelligent group of people over here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=609


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    #84
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    P_1 wrote: »
    I'm sure you'll find a nice intelligent group of people over here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=609

    ...none of whom are addicted to cigarettes. They all smoke because they enjoy it...


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    #85
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    RayM wrote: »
    ...none of whom are addicted to cigarettes. They all smoke because they enjoy it...

    But weren't you just after making the point that people can't enjoy smoking without getting addicted to it?

    Does. Not. Compute. :confused:


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    #86
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    P_1 wrote: »
    But weren't you just after making the point that people can't enjoy smoking without getting addicted to it?

    Does. Not. Compute. :confused:

    I'm going to be really kind here and assume that you're just sarcastically failing to recognise my sarcasm.


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    #87
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    RayM wrote: »
    I'm going to be really kind here and assume that you're just sarcastically failing to recognise my sarcasm.

    Sarcasm doesn't tend to come across very clearly in the written form of the English language so I'm going to be kind and assume that you have your argument and I have mine and there's little point in going around in circles arguing the same points over and over.


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    #88
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    RayM wrote: »
    I've yet to encounter a regular smoker for whom it is merely an enjoyable pastime. It's disingenuous to suggest that otherwise intelligent people would partake in such a dangerous habit simply because they find it pleasurable and not because they're satisfying a severe craving.


    Hi Ray.

    P_1 wrote: »

    Sarcasm doesn't tend to come across very clearly in the written form of the English language     so I'm going to be kind and assume that you have your argument and I have mine and there's little point in going around in circles arguing the same points over and over.


    Tell me about it.


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    #89
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,653 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    It seems to me that Ireland is a society that in just a few short decades has gone from being unduly influenced by a stifling religious moralistic near theocracy to being a nanny state without the libertarian period in between that most modern societies have experienced. There are plenty of people out there who can't seem to be able to allow others to make decisions for themselves.

    I would really prefer if the busybody self appointed so called "moral guardians" who lobby to dictate policy minded their own business.


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