Paid Parking for all Staff & Students

new2tri

A letter from Eamonn Ceannt to the Unions us is currently circulating among UCD staff. The letter outlines how current car parking arrangements will cease and paid car parking for staff and students "is being introduced" in both belfield and blackrock from next September. Apparently staff and students are to be treated equally with a base parking fee of 50c per hour for all. This is to fund the new commuter facility.

These new arrangemnts could cost full-time saff up to €1000 per year for normal day-to-day parking!!

SIPTU believe free car parking to be part of the terms and conditions of employment of staff in UCD and are planning to work with other unions in the university to oppose the introduction of paid car parking on its members. I would imagine the Students Union will be all over this one too.

I wonder how all the local residents will feel about all the local estates being clogged up with cars!

bbuzz

At the moment you can get an annual parking pass for the pay carparks for around €50. I'm sure (or I hope) there will be something similar next year.

godtabh

Read the first article here
http://www.smartertravelworkplaces.ie/media/newsletter_120101.pdf

very similar and a great move by UCD

bbuzz

godtabh wrote: »

Read the first article here
http://www.smartertravelworkplaces.ie/media/newsletter_120101.pdf

very similar and a great move by UCD

The shuttle bus to the train station seems to have been a great success at IT Blanchardstown. Maybe UCD should consider something similar to link the campus to the Luas and Dart? The 17 does that now, but its so unreliable!

groovyg

Is this going to stop all the people who use UCD as a park and ride facility?

RayCarley

bbuzz wrote: »

At the moment you can get an annual parking pass for the pay carparks for around €50. I'm sure (or I hope) there will be something similar next year.

That was only available to staff though wasn't it? Not like it would help, the paid parking still fills up in UCD, only people try and get free parking first.

bbuzz

RayCarley wrote: »

That was only available to staff though wasn't it? Not like it would help, the paid parking still fills up in UCD, only people try and get free parking first.

Nope, was for students too. I got one because I had to get back to Belfield from Smurfit at around 11am and could only get parking in the pay & display. But you're right, even the pay & display car parks fill up at some points during the day.

Link: http://www.ucd.ie/building/code/traffic.html

RayCarley

bbuzz wrote: »

Nope, was for students too. I got one because I had to get back to Belfield from Smurfit at around 11am and could only get parking in the pay & display. But you're right, even the pay & display car parks fill up at some points during the day.

Link: http://www.ucd.ie/building/code/traffic.html

I never knew that. I guess it wasn't something they wanted to tell everyone, although I can't see why.
I'm not surprised they haven't told students that all parking will be paid for next year yet though.

ironclaw

groovyg wrote: »

Is this going to stop all the people who use UCD as a park and ride facility?

At 50c an hour it will probably encourage it as many students (I feel) won't pay it and rather make alternative arrangements. God help the surrounding neighborhoods! A week's parking would cost about 20 euro at that rate. I certainly won't be forking out 100 euro a month for the right to park in a university I pay close to 3k to attend (And 6k next year due to a Masters)

They should introduce paid parking but it should be a permit system for students. They already have ANPR cameras in operation so they know what cars are parking where in the university. With SISWeb etc it wouldn't be that hard to integrate i.e. One car per year for X euros additional to your fee's.

I'd happily pay an upfront, reasonable fee if it somewhat guaranteed some parking space (i.e. Only 1.5 times the population of permits available) A blind man can see that the front car park completely full at 7.45am is hardly students.

cuckoo

ironclaw wrote: »

A blind man can see that the front car park completely full at 7.45am is hardly students.

+10000000000000

I'd support a permit for paid parking for staff and students, but 20c per hour is too much. UCD is private property - no permit/not in a 'paid and display zone' = clamp.

I live in Dublin 6 and pay Dublin city council 50 euro a year for an on street residents permit, and there's pay and display machines in my area. Before these measures were introduced it was a battle for parking, and similar to ucd there was a lot of park and ride going on.

50 euro per semester for a permit in ucd - that and the clamping fines would probably more than meet the enforcement costs and would make parking a much less stressful experience for everyone.

ironclaw

cuckoo wrote: »

I live in Dublin 6 and pay Dublin city council 50 euro a year for an on street residents permit, and there's pay and display machines in my area. Before these measures were introduced it was a battle for parking, and similar to ucd there was a lot of park and ride going on.

Out of interest, with the introduction of a permit and Pay N' Display, did the park and ride brigade move elsewhere? Or did it make much difference?

I figure as long as your making it the same cost as getting a bus from further afield (Or generally more expensive that its worth) then it should stop people parking in UCD. The issue at the moment is it costs next to nothing if you can grab a bus from UCD and use a prepaid ticket. Its also ridiculously convenient for the drive home. Weigh that up against a prepaid ticket and probably €5 per day on parking and I think you'd very quickly see people go elsewhere.

Chet T16

I'd happily pay 100 or so for a years parking permit assuming there was a reasonable chance of getting parking when I arrive. The only reasons I didn't get the 50 euro pass was because they changed the entrance to 'my' car park so i couldn't get to it without coming in the main entrance and that didn't suit. It was also based on your reg and being restricted to taking a certain car every day didn't work. Theres a lake there now anyway

With everyone having a ucard there is no reason not to have parking restricted to staff and students, it's no secret who takes up a large chunk of the current spaces.

RayCarley

Chet T16 wrote: »

I'd happily pay 100 or so for a years parking permit assuming there was a reasonable chance of getting parking when I arrive. The only reasons I didn't get the 50 euro pass was because they changed the entrance to 'my' car park so i couldn't get to it without coming in the main entrance and that didn't suit. It was also based on your reg and being restricted to taking a certain car every day didn't work. Theres a lake there now anyway

With everyone having a ucard there is no reason not to have parking restricted to staff and students, it's no secret who takes up a large chunk of the current spaces.

The problem is that the number of parking spaces in UCD is capped at 3600 by the county council and other bodies, so even if they bring in a permit system there won't be any guarantee that you'll get a space. So you'd really just be paying for something you've been getting for free all along: a chance at a parking space. These costs won't help get parking, the only reason is that UCD needs more money to build the 2 multistorey car parks (although I don't know what the plan with the second one is, I've only heard about the one they're putting on the tennis courts.)

The number of park & ride people is quite small anyway... although maybe it's time to do another survey on that.

cuckoo

ironclaw wrote: »

Out of interest, with the introduction of a permit and Pay N' Display, did the park and ride brigade move elsewhere? Or did it make much difference?

Massive difference. The Swan shopping centre car park in Rathmines always had a charge, so large numbers of people used to park on the surrounding streets.

ironclaw

RayCarley wrote: »

The number of park & ride people is quite small anyway... although maybe it's time to do another survey on that.

I'd completely disagree Ray. I often walk in well before 8am and the front car park is full with plenty of people walking out. Same at the Quinn school. Well dress, 30 somethings walking towards the N11. Its a serious problem. The demographic of the people and the cars alone is a dead give away.

RayCarley

ironclaw wrote: »

I'd completely disagree Ray. I often walk in well before 8am and the front car park is full with plenty of people walking out. Same at the Quinn school. Well dress, 30 somethings walking towards the N11. Its a serious problem. The demographic of the people and the cars alone is a dead give away.

I guess I'm never in early enough to see it. I've been told survey's have been done on it though and the amount of people was found to be quite minimal. Where are these people coming from anyway I wonder? Are there not buses that start further away from UCD into town?

Perhaps it would be worth doing a proper survey on it? Although if paid parking is definitely coming in next year I guess it doesn't matter does it?

ironclaw

RayCarley wrote: »

I guess I'm never in early enough to see it. I've been told survey's have been done on it though and the amount of people was found to be quite minimal. Where are these people coming from anyway I wonder? Are there not buses that start further away from UCD into town?

Perhaps it would be worth doing a proper survey on it? Although if paid parking is definitely coming in next year I guess it doesn't matter does it?

The difference between me getting a bus from Bray and from UCD into town is about a euro. But the time difference is massive. You'd easily beat an 84X bus by about 20 mins from Bray. And a 145 could be 40 mins slower. The fare saving is €5 a week or €260 a year. So if someone was getting free parking and saving €200 a year by getting the bus from UCD, its really a no brainer. You could say you'd burn that saving in driving to UCD in the morning but I wouldn't blame someone living south of Loughlinstown. After that its takes an age to get home.

I believe permits should also be issued based on commute distance much like res. I'm not saying out right discrimination but a percentage for those living far away (And no, I'm not suggesting Bray is far away. I'm actually quite well served)

Even if paid parking isn't introduced the very least should be a car registration system and a fee to do so (To avoid non driving students selling their registration spots) Parking in UCD on your commute on a daily basis just isn't on.

Tayto2000

Finally, first step towards getting the car parking under control, about time. I see from the letter that there's going to be a consultation process in March. If the whole campus is going to be pay and display, presumably some sort of permit system will have to be used again. Interesting to see whether there will be anything like a maximum dwell time or similar...

The park and riding issue is a red herring logistically speaking albeit an infuriating one. The surrounding estates are already jammed with people parking in them from 9am onwards. Assuming you were able to permanently clear out all the small number of park and riders you would at best achieve a slight delay in the carparks filling (given that people seem to be willing to spend up to an hour looking for a free space on campus). This would soon be eaten up by behaviour change (people who had previously gone to the estates at time n would go to the carparks instead at this time). The local residents might see a slight benefit maybe...

Last time the survey was done, a lot of the people you can still see parking in UCD and walking out to get buses turned out to be UCD students (and staff with business off campus...). The schools of nursing and medicine both moved to Belfield campus in the past decade from town and Ballsbridge which created huge extra parking demand. The big gravel "temporary" car parks may have been created partially in response to this. A lot of students from these schools are based in hospitals but were expected to attend lectures in UCD (Might have changed a bit with telecasting of lectures etc). Given the much stricter and more expensive parking regimes in place around the Coombe, Mater and St Vincents etc it makes a lot of sense to park and ride or walk from UCD. The parking regs don't specify that the staff or student's business has to be on the relevant campus to be allowed to park so it's legal under the current rules.

Here's another one for you - Campus residences. Parking for people staying in res has never been directly addressed with the result that a lot of people are now garaging their cars in the carparks during the week which effectively permanently reduces the number of spaces available to commuters. The remaining free parking area in Roebuck is half full even before anyone arrives in the mornings and the spaces opposite the steps to education are permanently full except for the wheelchair and pay and display spaces. Will this continue to be allowed?

Realistically, even if perfectly allocated and tightly controlled spaces were in place there's not going to be enough. 40% of staff drive and over 20% of students, that's roughly 6000 people looking to park in 3600 spaces. And of course and that doesn't include visitors, contractors etc. Strategically, improving alternative methods of getting to and around UCD alongside proper control and management of existing car parking spaces needs to happen as it's not going to be possible to just increase the spaces available. Pay parking isn't going to immediately fix anything by itself but it's definitely a step in the right direction anyway.

asdf1234

"a step in the right direction"? Certainly, if the intention of car parks is solely to benefit the wealthiest in our society. And make no mistake, if your first instinct is to think "Hurray, less people will park there now and i'll be grand" instead of "where the **** am I going to find the guts of a grand to pay for parking for the year" you certainly, completely, and unequivocally fall into that category.

ironclaw

Assuming a space is used for 6 hour day, at 3600 spaces, at 75% overall occupancy, that's €8.1k for that time span. Now multiply that out over the term or year. It's a personal ATM for UCD.

That's not taking into account the more expensive car parks and the fact they want to charge people 24/7 unlike a far more reasonable 'core hours only' charge.

It's utter lunacy and the SU really should be doing something about that. €50 flat fee permit for any student with a car and registered to that car. Done and dusted. There is no need to charge people by the hour.

asdf1234

Worth noting also that the plan is to reduce the total number of spaces from 3,600 to just 2,000 despite the year on year increase in the overall total of staff and students in UCD.

Tayto2000

asdf1234 wrote: »

"a step in the right direction"? Certainly, if the intention of car parks is solely to benefit the wealthiest in our society. And make no mistake, if your first instinct is to think "Hurray, less people will park there now and i'll be grand" instead of "where the **** am I going to find the guts of two grand to pay for parking for the year" you certainly, completely, and unequivocally fall into that category.

Lol, you're making a lot of assumptions about me personally there. Unfortunately I am neither rich nor under the mistaken impression that paid parking is going to create a utopia of effortless commuting in UCD. The openly stated intent of paid parking is to fund the commuting centres and to drive down parking demand by increasing the barriers to bringing a car onto campus. It'll achieve both of these aims albeit not in a way that is going to make many people happy. I'm afraid that my first thoughts were "Will there be affordable permits for staff and students?" and “will this end the park and ride issue?".

What I didn't do was have a panic attack about paying 2k a year in parking fees - all that has been decided so far is that the "base rate" (whatever that means) will be 50c per hour. That's the same as what is currently charged in the pay and display areas which are covered by a €50 annual permit. Permits are almost certainly going to feature, there have been hints about semesterised permits and multiple cars per registered user options on the commuting surveys as well.

There's no mention of core hours, peak hours, evening or weekend rates or anything else in the letter from Eamon Ceannt so it's also wrong to just multiply hours in UCD per week x €0.50 at this point.

As there is to be a consultation process first, there's a chance to engage and affect what shape the final system takes. This is something the SU could and should do for students. Beforehand, there's no point in throwing numbers based on assumptions around.

The only real surprise was that UCD have decided to be slightly egalitarian and charge staff as well. In most comparable institutions students either have no parking entitlement at all or have to pay for the privilege which is provided free to staff. Charging staff is likely to present the biggest obstacle as that will mean taking on the staff unions in the wake of Croke Park 2. There are some obvious opportunities for the SU there.

UnawareCaesar

ironclaw wrote: »

Assuming a space is used for 6 hour day, at 3600 spaces, at 75% overall occupancy, that's €8.1k for that time span. Now multiply that out over the term or year. It's a personal ATM for UCD.

That's not taking into account the more expensive car parks and the fact they want to charge people 24/7 unlike a far more reasonable 'core hours only' charge.

It's utter lunacy and the SU really should be doing something about that. €50 flat fee permit for any student with a car and registered to that car. Done and dusted. There is no need to charge people by the hour.

Going by you assumptions of 2700 spaces being filled for just six hours of the day, at 50 cent an hour for just the mon-fri of the two twelve weeks of the semester will net UCD €972,000 and those values are conservative enough.

RayCarley

I presume you all received the email from the consulting group asking us all to fill out a survey. From the questions and information on it, they seem to have it all fairly well thought out. I think everyone in this thread has quite an opinion on the matter, so I'd say it's worthwhile filling it out.

Chet T16

I filled it out. Reduced rates, yearly/semester passes, anpr and multiple cars per account mentioned. If they implement that I'll be happy enough.

n2o

RayCarley wrote: »

I presume you all received the email from the consulting group asking us all to fill out a survey. From the questions and information on it, they seem to have it all fairly well thought out. I think everyone in this thread has quite an opinion on the matter, so I'd say it's worthwhile filling it out.

I started filling it out but anger got the better of me.

Sample question

Paid parking is

a) great
b) wonderful
c) fantastic

It's constructed in such a way that it's meaningless.

work.inprocess

I'd love to be able to drive in in the mornings, even with the paid parking it would be cheaper than getting the (minimum) 4 buses a day but coming from Meath, I'm already getting up at around 5 in the morning to be in on time for a 9 o'clock lecture and that's without having to be there super early to get a car parking space. They really need to sort out some sort of multi story car park in UCD, I would love to drive the 40/45 minutes it would take me rather than the 2.5+ hours it takes on the bus, and I'm not even one of the people that comes from the furthest away every morning

bbuzz

work.inprocess wrote: »

I'd love to be able to drive in in the mornings, even with the paid parking it would be cheaper than getting the (minimum) 4 buses a day but coming from Meath, I'm already getting up at around 5 in the morning to be in on time for a 9 o'clock lecture and that's without having to be there super early to get a car parking space. They really need to sort out some sort of multi story car park in UCD, I would love to drive the 40/45 minutes it would take me rather than the 2.5+ hours it takes on the bus, and I'm not even one of the people that comes from the furthest away every morning

But if you're coming in for 9 there's always parking so why can't you drive? The gravel car park beside Quinn (the closest one to the M50) only fills up around 9.30.

Tayto2000

n2o wrote: »

It's constructed in such a way that it's meaningless.

It's constructed on the premise that paid parking is being implemented as decided by the UCD governing body - that's a given as per Eamonn Ceannt's letter. There's no option to have anything else on the consultancy survey, it's only about what form it will take.

Fill it out and make sure to express preference for discounted staff/student passes etc is my advice. Free parking evening and weekends when there's less pressure on spaces would help too.

asdf1234

See the 3 specially widened wheelchair-specific spaces which were strategically placed at the top of the concrete steps leading down to the 5-a-side soccer pitches for everything you need to know about the thought process behind UCD parking decisions.

RayCarley

asdf1234 wrote: »

See the 3 specially widened wheelchair-specific spaces which were strategically placed at the top of the concrete steps leading down to the 5-a-side soccer pitches for everything you need to know about the thought process behind UCD parking decisions.

Not to mention the 10 wheelchair spaces in the pay and display carpark just up from the running track. I've never seen them used. Surely it would be a better idea to have them spread out around campus instead of them putting their quote all in one car park.

ironclaw

work.inprocess wrote: »

I'd love to be able to drive in in the mornings, even with the paid parking it would be cheaper than getting the (minimum) 4 buses a day but coming from Meath, I'm already getting up at around 5 in the morning to be in on time for a 9 o'clock lecture and that's without having to be there super early to get a car parking space. They really need to sort out some sort of multi story car park in UCD, I would love to drive the 40/45 minutes it would take me rather than the 2.5+ hours it takes on the bus, and I'm not even one of the people that comes from the furthest away every morning

All I can say is far play to you.

Its far, far cheaper to drive. Even when you factor in tax and insurance as long as their is more than one person in the car. (On that note, UCD should be encouraging car pooling)

If I was to get the bus with the other person I drive in with, it would be a minimum of 4 x €2.45 or €9.80 per day in the pocket of Dublin bus. Thats €49 per week. At the moment I'm on work semester so I'm driving about 70km per day per week (About 3 times my distance to UCD) and thats only costing me €55 in petrol per week. I don't car pool but if I did you can clearly see the savings.

Its off topic but the sooner Dublin bus get reformed the better. Its a ludicrously uneconomical outfit.

Sam the Sham

A couple of points on this "proposal" as it relates to staff:

1) The proposal is to charge .50 per hour on campus. That is effectively a pay cut of €20/week for those staff who must commute by car. This idea will be fought tooth and nail by the unions for just this reason.

2) Staff, unlike students, are here for years, often decades. Multiply €20/week by 35 to 48 weeks by 40 years and that's €28,000 to €38,400 that you're asking staff to give back to their employer for the privilege of doing their jobs.

3) Most institutions privilege staff parking over student parking for a very simple reason (at least in the case of academic staff): if a student can't find parking, that student might miss a class or something else; if a lecturer can't find parking, everyone in the class will miss the class. Given that there isn't enough parking and given the large numbers of students from the local area who drive to campus when alternatives are available, it makes much more sense to let staff park for free and to charge students. Or, alternatively, to charge students who live within a certain distance of UCD. Many other places do one or the other of these things.

bbuzz

Sam the Sham wrote: »

A couple of points on this "proposal" as it relates to staff:

1) The proposal is to charge .50 per hour on campus. That is effectively a pay cut of €20/week for those staff who must commute by car. This idea will be fought tooth and nail by the unions for just this reason.

2) Staff, unlike students, are here for years, often decades. Multiply €20/week by 35 to 48 weeks by 40 years and that's €28,000 to €38,400 that you're asking staff to give back to their employer for the privilege of doing their jobs.

3) Most institutions privilege staff parking over student parking for a very simple reason (at least in the case of academic staff): if a student can't find parking, that student might miss a class or something else; if a lecturer can't find parking, everyone in the class will miss the class. Given that there isn't enough parking and given the large numbers of students from the local area who drive to campus when alternatives are available, it makes much more sense to let staff park for free and to charge students. Or, alternatively, to charge students who live within a certain distance of UCD. Many other places do one or the other of these things.

I may be wrong, but I think if UCD starts providing free parking to staff it has different legal implications as its seen as a benefit and I think UCD has to pay tax on each space it provides for staff. So by treating staff and students as equal UCD avoids paying this.

Parking spaces in UCD are also limited to 3,600 by dlrcoco.

Open for correction but I think that's it.

Sam the Sham

bbuzz wrote: »

I may be wrong, but I think if UCD starts providing free parking to staff it has different legal implications as its seen as a benefit and I think UCD has to pay tax on each space it provides for staff.

Not so: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/benefit-in-kind/other.html#section11

Parking spaces in UCD are also limited to 3,600 by dlrcoco.

Yes. Why shouldn't these be reserved, first, for staff and, second, for students who genuinely need them given their distance from campus?

Tayto2000

Sam the Sham wrote: »

A couple of points on this "proposal" as it relates to staff:
1) The proposal is to charge .50 per hour on campus. That is effectively a pay cut of €20/week for those staff who must commute by car. This idea will be fought tooth and nail by the unions for just this reason.
2) Staff, unlike students, are here for years, often decades. Multiply €20/week by 35 to 48 weeks by 40 years and that's €28,000 to €38,400 that you're asking staff to give back to their employer for the privilege of doing their jobs.

Throwing around multiples of 0.50c is still meaningless at the moment. Under the current permit system for staff and students, a years parking is €50, that's €2000 for 40 years going with your example. Not unreasonable I think. The cost of an annual permit will represent the real price.

The whole "being charged for doing our jobs" argument is, frankly, BS. Unless an employer contractually obliges you to travel to work by car and then charges for parking, you are not being charged to attend work. You are being charged to facilitate your choice to commute by car which, incidentally, is still the most expensive mode for any workplace to cater for.

Sam the Sham wrote: »

3) Most institutions privilege staff parking over student parking for a very simple reason (at least in the case of academic staff): if a student can't find parking, that student might miss a class or something else; if a lecturer can't find parking, everyone in the class will miss the class. Given that there isn't enough parking and given the large numbers of students from the local area who drive to campus when alternatives are available, it makes much more sense to let staff park for free and to charge students. Or, alternatively, to charge students who live within a certain distance of UCD. Many other places do one or the other of these things.

Completely agree that staff should be prioritised, but it shouldn't be for free. Many other Irish universities operate the staff first approach including NUIG, Trinity, UCC and Limerick. Not all charge for it though some do. Where they don't, the students end up paying for it obliquely with things like the ever-expanding registration fee.

The distance from campus thing sounds fair but most places that have tried it (Mainly UK afaik, don't know of any in Ireland) need to establish a huge bureacracy to run it (It's a bit like means testing - there's diminishing returns because of drag from the administrative apparatus needed to carry out the testing) and even then it's still wide open to abuse.

Sam the Sham

Tayto2000 wrote: »

Throwing around multiples of 0.50c is still meaningless at the moment. Under the current permit system for staff and students, a years parking is €50, that's €2000 for 40 years going with your example. Not unreasonable I think. The cost of an annual permit will represent the real price.

There is no proposal on the table for an annual permit. The only proposal is for .50/hour for everyone.

The whole "being charged for doing our jobs" argument is, frankly, BS. Unless an employer contractually obliges you to travel to work by car and then charges for parking, you are not being charged to attend work. You are being charged to facilitate your choice to commute by car which, incidentally, is still the most expensive mode for any workplace to cater for.

What if you have no other options than to commute by car?

What if your employer started to charge you rent for the use of your office? Would that be OK? How about charging staff for the use of the telephone? This is just another form of sharecropping.

Completely agree that staff should be prioritised, but it shouldn't be for free. Many other Irish universities operate the staff first approach including NUIG, Trinity, UCC and Limerick. Not all charge for it though some do. Where they don't, the students end up paying for it obliquely with things like the ever-expanding registration fee.

This is nonsense. Student "registration fee" pays for a tiny fraction of the cost of the education they receive.

The cost of the car parking facilities would not even be necessary had a sensible permit system been put in place years ago.

The distance from campus thing sounds fair but most places that have tried it (Mainly UK afaik, don't know of any in Ireland) need to establish a huge bureacracy to run it (It's a bit like means testing - there's diminishing returns because of drag from the administrative apparatus needed to carry out the testing) and even then it's still wide open to abuse.

UCD already has a huge bureaucracy. How many people (not to mention outside consultants) do you imagine it took to plan the new multi-storey car parks, to design the "surveys" we're being asked to fill out, etc. etc.? Those energies would be better spent working out a fair permit system (free for staff).

n2o

Tayto2000 wrote: »

The whole "being charged for doing our jobs" argument is, frankly, BS. Unless an employer contractually obliges you to travel to work by car and then charges for parking, you are not being charged to attend work. You are being charged to facilitate your choice to commute by car which, incidentally, is still the most expensive mode for any workplace to cater for.

It's a change to the terms and conditions of employment. Free parking may not be written in any contract but it was there when employment started so there is an expectation that it would remain.

Tayto2000

Sam the Sham wrote: »

There is no proposal on the table for an annual permit. The only proposal is for .50/hour for everyone.

That's not a proposal, it's what the governing authority have already decided. Have you done the survey? Half the questions are in relation to a permit system. Can't say for certain that it'll be implemented but I'd rate it as a very high probability. A permit will supercede the .50c an hour rate as is currently the case so it's meaningless until we have more information.

Sam the Sham wrote: »

What if you have no other options than to commute by car?

This argument always rears up at some point in any discussion of parking in UCD. How will you decide who can and can't commute by car? Distance from campus is a very crude measure and easy to manipulate for assessment purposes. Even if you live a long way out there's options other than parking on campus. Unfortunately this issue is tied into larger problems arising from things like the commuter belt sprawl and the still dismal public transport system.

Sam the Sham wrote: »

What if your employer started to charge you rent for the use of your office? Would that be OK? How about charging staff for the use of the telephone? This is just another form of sharecropping.

So you're comparing two items provided by your employer to do your job with your personal mode of transport? Unless your employer is also providing your car this analogy is irrelevant.

Sam the Sham wrote: »

The cost of the car parking facilities would not even be necessary had a sensible permit system been put in place years ago.

Care to explain this further? I can't see how having a permit system would have prevented the need for the new multi storeys. Aside from anything else, the college wants to build on some of the existing carparks which would require consolidation of the sprawling surface ones anyway.

You might be interested to know that there was a permit system in use years ago, it was turned into a "registration scheme" in its final year or two but it essentially collapsed under the weight of student commuters as more and more started driving to school, never mind college.

Sam the Sham wrote: »

UCD already has a huge bureaucracy. How many people (not to mention outside consultants) do you imagine it took to plan the new multi-storey car parks, to design the "surveys" we're being asked to fill out, etc. etc.?

I don't know about planning the multi storeys but they would almost certainly be outside agencies operating under tender. The survey is being done by one person who is definitely a consultant through surveymonkey. Assessing for entitlement to permits would have to be a permanent task for the college infrastructure.

Sam the Sham wrote: »

Those energies would be better spent working out a fair permit system (free for staff).

I'm guessing you haven't done the survey then? That's really the point of it, it's to decide on the final shape of the charging system which I think is going to include staff and student permits. Free permits aren't on the table (I don't think) but there's a big difference between .50 an hour and €50 a year.

@n2o - That's a valid argument. It was put forward in 2008 when paid parking was first to be introduced and resulted in the plans being abandoned. As the GA must be aware of the Union stance on this, the only conclusion can be is that they have decided to confront them on it regardless. Can the Unions block it again? I just don't see it happening this time around without major industrial action.

n2o

Tayto2000 wrote: »

@n2o - That's a valid argument. It was put forward in 2008 when paid parking was first to be introduced and resulted in the plans being abandoned. As the GA must be aware of the Union stance on this, the only conclusion can be is that they have decided to confront them on it regardless. Can the Unions block it again? I just don't see it happening this time around without major industrial action.

That's for the Labour Court to decide....

Sam the Sham

Tayto2000 wrote: »

That's not a proposal, it's what the governing authority have already decided. Have you done the survey? Half the questions are in relation to a permit system. Can't say for certain that it'll be implemented but I'd rate it as a very high probability. A permit will supercede the .50c an hour rate as is currently the case so it's meaningless until we have more information.

I see no reason to believe this speculation on your part. The main motivation behind this entire idea is revenue generation. If permits generated significant revenue, they would have been instituted years ago.

This argument always rears up at some point in any discussion of parking in UCD. How will you decide who can and can't commute by car? Distance from campus is a very crude measure and easy to manipulate for assessment purposes.

You're blowing smoke. Ever hear of Google Maps? Bing Maps? You can calculate the driving time between any two points. (In the US they also have public transit times and cycling times; this should be coming to Ireland soon). If we take driving time as a suitable proxy for commuting time in general, it is easy to stipulate that any student residing at a location with a commuting time of greater than X is entitled to a permit.

Even if you live a long way out there's options other than parking on campus. Unfortunately this issue is tied into larger problems arising from things like the commuter belt sprawl and the still dismal public transport system.

Which this proposal does nothing to solve while putting the burden entirely on commuters. Perhaps you're too young to remember but it was not that long ago that the only residences of any kind that could be afforded by people on UCD salaries were way outside of Dublin 4. For many that's still the case and many who bought outside the city are now in negative equity. Now you want to make them pay again for that fact.

So you're comparing two items provided by your employer to do your job with your personal mode of transport? Unless your employer is also providing your car this analogy is irrelevant.

Can I do my job if I can't get to it?

Care to explain this further? I can't see how having a permit system would have prevented the need for the new multi storeys. Aside from anything else, the college wants to build on some of the existing carparks which would require consolidation of the sprawling surface ones anyway.

It's really very simple. Introduce a permit system with gates: no permit, no entry. Staff are given free permits. Students within a certain radius of UCD are charged. Park and ride commuters are excluded. No need for multi-storeys. If there is still too much demand, increase the price for students. Rinse and repeat. Problem solved.

You might be interested to know that there was a permit system in use years ago, it was turned into a "registration scheme" in its final year or two but it essentially collapsed under the weight of student commuters as more and more started driving to school, never mind college.

Oh how I laugh. That "permit system" was a joke. There were no gates at the entry to the car park and failure to have a permit was never enforced. It didn't "collapse under the weight of student commuters." It was flimsy and half-arsed from the start.

I don't know about planning the multi storeys but they would almost certainly be outside agencies operating under tender. The survey is being done by one person who is definitely a consultant through surveymonkey. Assessing for entitlement to permits would have to be a permanent task for the college infrastructure.

I can assure you that UCD has a large bureaucracy (including outside consultants) attending to this.

@n2o - That's a valid argument. It was put forward in 2008 when paid parking was first to be introduced and resulted in the plans being abandoned. As the GA must be aware of the Union stance on this, the only conclusion can be is that they have decided to confront them on it regardless. Can the Unions block it again? I just don't see it happening this time around without major industrial action.

Let me tell you the real history of this. This bright idea--identical in all important particulars save one--of charging .50/hour to everyone for parking was first proposed in October 2006, not 2008. That's 6 and a half years ago. The unions objected on similar grounds to those on which they are objecting now but proposed other possibilities that might ameliorate the car parking problem on campus (notably permits). The administration then proceeded to do exactly zero for the next 5 1/2 years. During that time, how much petrol and student and staff time was wasted in an often-futile daily search for parking? They didn't care. It wasn't affecting them: they just made a few more spaces next to AIB into "reserved" spaces so that they wouldn't be the ones tooling around.

Finally, in 2012, having thought about it for 5 1/2 years, they came back with their great plan: "I know! Let's charge everyone .50/hour for parking!" They held open meetings in Spring of 2012 at which they were told, once again and in no uncertain terms that staff considered this a pay cut. The only difference from the 2006 proposals is that now they are claiming that the "need" for multi-storey car parks is what necessitates this charge. Before, they had no justification whatsoever. But of course, this administration's answer to any problem is to build a huge and expensive building. Really, they are little more than property developers (never mind that sinking €10 million on the planning for the never-to-be-built "Gateway Project" hasn't helped the university's finances). Now they are trying to ram this proposal through at exactly the same moment that staff have been told to expect pay cuts of from 5.5 to 10%. Great timing, guys. If it was a non-runner in 2006, it is dead in the water in 2013.

The unions have other options short of industrial action to stop this. First stop: the Labour Relations Commission, where they would point out that this is a change to conditions of employment. From there it might go to the Labour Court. And I'd be willing to bet they'd win in one or the other. But, frankly, I doubt it will come to that: an administration simply cannot piss off a huge percentage of its own employees. Not in a university...

There is another issue, of course: When Hugh Brady took office he made a great deal of noise about wanting to turn UCD into a "24-hour campus" with activity at all hours. It wasn't a bad idea: other universities have a lot more going on on-campus at night-time including lecturers working in the library or their offices. Now ask yourself: how does charging staff .50/hour fit in with this vision?

Tayto2000

I won't quote your reply because there's nothing more tedious than a quote war. I would like to reply to some of your points though.

It is speculation that permits will feature albeit based on observed facts, so I prefer hypothesis. But it's no more speculation than your assertion that it's going to be 50c 24/7/365. I'm not arguing that the main aim isn't revenue generation, that's been openly stated. Disincentivising parking (further) has been a long term goal as well though, this follows that aim.

I'm well aware of Google maps etc thanks, and if it was that simple it would work. But it isn't. You ignored my point which is that this data is very easy to manipulate. What will you take as proof of address for the purpose of determining eligibility for a permit? How will you handle students renting or sharing? Giving a home address in Gorey while living in Ranelagh?

I never suggested that this system would solve it but commuting strategy should never be designed to validate poor choices. I'm not suggesting they should have to pay for living miles away outside Dublin, I think that they should pay for use of a scarce resource in UCD Belfield which is shared with a lot of users with different circumstances. If they still want to park and ride at a dart station or park in the surrounding estates and walk in for nothing they are free to do that. But you're asking for a specific set of personal circumstances to be taken into account for a small section of car drivers which amounts to special pleading.

This seems to be the main thrust of your argument in general. You want UCD to support and validate your chosen method of commuting - but that's your private business. The college doesn't stipulate that you commute by car or provide a vehicle for your use - it's up to you. If anything, UCD will be looking to discourage car drivers further. The argument "If I can't drive I can't work, what are you going to do to accomodate me?" is simply childish.

I'd agree with the gates idea. I've got serious reservations about ANPR given all the shenanigans that happened elsewhere with it (M50, I'm looking at you). Perhaps you remember the gates that used to be in place on some car parks and what happened with them?

Paid parking was due for implementation in 2008, not proposed 2008, I stand corrected. It's also true that the lack of action and imagination from the GA so far is disgraceful. I was just pointing out that there had been a previous skirmish on this already.

My point on industrial action is that surely the other responses (Labour relations etc) would have been anticipated. And remember that LRC recommendations are not legally binding, UCD can proceed with it unilaterally. Industrial action on this issue may be the only way for opponents. I'm not sure how it will play alongside Croke Park 2 though, I think it will be in danger of getting sidetracked.

The permit system was run by Services, it was patchily enforced for a while before devolving and being abandoned. But lack of resources committed and increasing car numbers killed it, the main increase being through student drivers.

Paid parking doesn't harm the 24/7 ideal (Which btw is a pipe dream at the moment I think, UCD is dead out of hours except for some specialist research areas) if restricted to core hours with free parking evenings and weekends. Again, it's speculation until the final system is presented.

ironclaw

Tayto2000 wrote: »

I'd agree with the gates idea. I've got serious reservations about ANPR given all the shenanigans that happened elsewhere with it (M50, I'm looking at you).

What's wrong with ANPR? Don't tell me your one of these conspiracy theorists who believes the M50 is tracking us all? :pac:

Barriers won't work in UCD. People can barely managed Dundrum car park with barriers on a quiet Monday, let alone a 8.50am rush in the morning. ANPR is the only way it would work.

cuckoo

Would it really result in industrial action by staff if they lost free parking?

I think it was about 3 years ago that St Vincents Hospital got rid of the free parking for staff (one car park, access controlled by swipe activated barrier, it seemed to be full by 6.30am) and brought in a staff parking rate, think it's 3 euro a day. Staff rate also applies in the multi story car park.

Anyone know of other instances where staff lost previously free parking?

Sam the Sham

Tayto2000 wrote: »

It is speculation that permits will feature albeit based on observed facts, so I prefer hypothesis.

Again: there is no evidence that permits will feature. They have never been proposed by the administration at any time during discussions with the unions. Indeed, when the unions have proposed them (free for staff), they have been resisted by the administration.

I'm well aware of Google maps etc thanks, and if it was that simple it would work. But it isn't. You ignored my point which is that this data is very easy to manipulate. What will you take as proof of address for the purpose of determining eligibility for a permit? How will you handle students renting or sharing? Giving a home address in Gorey while living in Ranelagh?

This is a canard. It's the same canard thrown up by those opposed to, for example, assessing university fees based on the ability to pay: "people will cheat!" Funnily enough, other places in other jurisdictions seem to have solved both problems: they have parking systems that are able to discriminate based on difficulty of commuting and they have fees that are assessed based on ability to pay. But, in Ireland, somehow these sorts of things are "impossible."

Most people are honest. If a few around the margins are going to cheat no matter what, that is not a reason for not implementing something.

In any case, the vast majority of UCD students come from the UCD catchment area. Even if every car owner from outside Dublin but living in Dublin cheated, it wouldn't amount to much.

I never suggested that this system would solve it but commuting strategy should never be designed to validate poor choices.

I think what you meant to say is that commuting strategy should never be designed to validate the choice to be poor. Because that is what you are arguing. Again: there was a property bubble that made housing unaffordable for large numbers of UCD staff who then went and bought houses and apartments distant from their place of work. These people, most of whom are in negative equity, have no other way of commuting to work. And you want to hit them with an extra €20/week in addition to the pay cut that is coming in CP II (which is in addition to the pay cuts of 15-25% that they have already suffered since 2008). Not realistic.

I'm not suggesting they should have to pay for living miles away outside Dublin, I think that they should pay for use of a scarce resource in UCD Belfield which is shared with a lot of users with different circumstances.

It's not a "scarce resource." The problem here arises out of Celtic Tiger cubs with the means to buy cars. Of course no study has been done on it (why would we need to know anything about who is parking at UCD and why?), but I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of cars parked at UCD are owned by students who live within 3 miles of the campus.

If they still want to park and ride at a dart station or park in the surrounding estates and walk in for nothing they are free to do that.

That's your policy? We'll ram through .50 an hour and let the neighbours suffer the consequences?

But you're asking for a specific set of personal circumstances to be taken into account for a small section of car drivers which amounts to special pleading.

Special pleading? Do you think there is no distinction between staff and students?

This seems to be the main thrust of your argument in general. You want UCD to support and validate your chosen method of commuting - but that's your private business.

I didn't say anything about my "chosen method" or even that I was a UCD commuter. But you're quick to read things into all of this that aren't there.

The college doesn't stipulate that you commute by car or provide a vehicle for your use - it's up to you. If anything, UCD will be looking to discourage car drivers further. The argument "If I can't drive I can't work, what are you going to do to accomodate me?" is simply childish.

The college doesn't stipulate that staff commute by car or by helicopter but they do insist that staff be there on time. For some--including those living far off in the wilds of Rathfarnham, which is inaccessible by public transportation--this is impossible without parking provision. In addition, this is, as has been argued, part of their longstanding conditions of employment. A change to it is therefore an industrial relations issue, one on which I can tell you they are not going to cave.

It's also true that the lack of action and imagination from the GA so far is disgraceful.

Finally, we agree on something. Now, given that there has been a lack of imagination and given a desire to solve the problem, what sort of plan can we come up with that is acceptable to the staff and gives priority access to those who need it most. I've already suggested something very simple that answers all those requirements: enforced permit system, free permits for staff, students living beyond a certain radius get free (or subsidised) permits, everyone else pays. If you think the radius idea is unworkable, fine: free staff permits, everyone else pays, hourly parking for all non-UCD people.

You'd think this was neuroscience the way the administration approach it. It's been done elsewhere quite successfully but I can't think of a single university in the world where staff are charged by the hour to park. But I guess that's what those administrators make all that hefty, illicit bonus money for: reinventing the wheel.

cuckoo

Sam the Sham wrote: »

It's not a "scarce resource." The problem here arises out of Celtic Tiger cubs with the means to buy cars. Of course no study has been done on it (why would we need to know anything about who is parking at UCD and why?), but I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of cars parked at UCD are owned by students who live within 3 miles of the campus.

Wasn't there a campaign a good while back about the price/standard of food in the UCD restaurant, and it involved posting chips through the internal mail to the then UCD president? Sam, is it one of the left over chips from then that's resting on your shoulder?

There's also plenty of UCD staff living within that magic 3 miles of the campus.

Currently the car parks filling up before 9am is reducing the effective utilisation of the spaces, with people who may not need to be on the campus until 1pm coming in at 8am. There is very minimal turnover during the day.

The sooner paid parking comes in the better - and I don't think that staff should be exempt, and should pay the same annual/semester charge as students. A staff member on campus 5 days a week for the full calendar year will thus still have a lower per day charge than a student attending lectures 3/4 days a week for the college year.

Tayto2000

ironclaw wrote: »

What's wrong with ANPR? Don't tell me your one of these conspiracy theorists who believes the M50 is tracking us all? :pac:

Barriers won't work in UCD. People can barely managed Dundrum car park with barriers on a quiet Monday, let alone a 8.50am rush in the morning. ANPR is the only way it would work.

No, just about accuracy. ANPR is fine up to a point and does work in Dundrum but that's based on a static read by stopping people at barriers. The M50 model has a lot of problems with false reads and mistakes caused by trying to hit moving targets plus there's a lot of ways to actively interfere with it, e.g. IR coatings, tailgating etc. At the very least it'll intoduce a big element of uncertainty. The idea of ANPR is to log car movements, no reason why staff and students can't log in and out using their cards.

Sam - Im basing my hypothesis on the survey which was emailed around and the current permit system. Any future permit won't be free but I think there will be a cheaper rate for staff and possibly students. Can you tell me if you've done done the survey? I'm guessing the answer is no.

6000 people (roughly) trying to park in 3600 spaces = scarce resource. The neighbours are already suffering from this, take a look at the surrounding estates during term time.

I didn't say that it was impossible to introduce the equivalent of distance means testing, just that it will involve a big bureuacracy (Which you seem opposed to) and will be unfair and open to abuse if the current grant means test proposals are anything to go by.

Are you seriously trying to pretend that you're not a UCD car driver? OK... Also, it's a shock to hear that Rathfarnham is so inaccessible seeing as it's served by the 17 bus which goes direct to campus. And of course every other staff member and student who lives within 3 miles will also be arguing that they HAVE to drive.

Cuckoo - Vincents tightening up their parking is another reason why the problem has shifted further onto us.

I don't think anywhere is actually served by the 17 bus.

Iwannahurl

My Education Week: Diarmaid Ferriter, Professor of modern Irish history at University College Dublin

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2013/0226/1224330507411.html

THURSDAY
Seminars in UCD with third-year students on the meaning of a republic in the early 1920s. A latecomer, who said she couldn’t get parking, temporarily interrupts spirited contributions. She lives in Milltown, a 10-minute walk away. The mind boggles.

ironclaw

Iwannahurl wrote: »

My Education Week: Diarmaid Ferriter, Professor of modern Irish history at University College Dublin

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2013/0226/1224330507411.html

THURSDAY
Seminars in UCD with third-year students on the meaning of a republic in the early 1920s. A latecomer, who said she couldn’t get parking, temporarily interrupts spirited contributions. She lives in Milltown, a 10-minute walk away. The mind boggles.

You and your stupid, irrelevant, unfounded statistics.

http://goo.gl/maps/lYkMp

Milltown is at least a 20 to 30 minute walk from UCD. Its a 10 minute drive or cycle. And I'll point out the 'A' on that map is a junction in Milltown, not a housing estate. So easily add 5 mins at that end. And the 'B' is closest to the Arts building where the lecture was most likely talking place. Even from the extremities of UCD, closest to Milltown, to that building is a 10 mins walk. A quick 10km road run takes about 40 mins. So at 2km its about 8 minutes and that would be a damn fast pace.

EDIT: Went abit overboard.

cuckoo

Tayto2000 wrote: »

Cuckoo - Vincents tightening up their parking is another reason why the problem has shifted further onto us.

UCD health science students never had access to the staff parking in Vincents, so the introduction of staff charges didn't affect students. I mentioned it because the introduction of paid parking for staff in Vincents didn't result in industrial action (and while i'd like my lecturers to be on time in UCD, I might really, really need a surgeon/ICU staff member to be on time if I'm a patient in Vincents). And with on call and shift work, public transport can be less of an option for hospital staff than for UCD employees - but there wasn't protest at the change to paid parking.

The Vincents overflow of parking tends to be on the roads and estates around Nutley, and at the Montrose hotel. Health science students parking in UCD would be Mater/Holles Street, again it's the N11 front car parks as they'd be using the bus stop.