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A guide to motor insurance & FAQ's

  • 21-02-2013 3:13pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭


    Thought it might be a good idea to compile a list of motor insurers in Ireland, saves the hassle of googling when looking for a quote, make your way through the list!
    Mod - I'm adding this to the insurance thread





    I've written up this thread with a hope to cut down on the duplicate queries received in here every day. I've tried to be as specific as I can whilst speaking in plain English. I cannot guarantee you that every bit of information in this thread is 100% accurate and it is merely for advisory reasons. As such, never take anything said here as gospel and if you are in any kind of doubt then I suggest that you call your Insurer and Broker. I have tried to cover of everything but any further queries not covered in here just ask and I am sure it will be answered by somebody. This is a lot bigger than I initially imagined but I've taken a good stab at it. Please feel free to add to it anybody :)

    Why do I have to have Motor Insurance?

    Because it is the law. It is illegal to drive or be in charge of a vehicle in a public place, unless there is a policy of insurance in force, which covers liabilities for injury or damage caused to others.

    What is Insurance?

    Insurance is a risk transfer mechanism. It enables you to transfer the risk associated with driving a vehicle to your Insurance company should a claim be made against you. Nobody should ever financially gain from a claim however an Insurer should restore the affected party to same financial position they were in before the accident where the policy provides.

    Where can I get an Insurance quote?

    Well you're on the internet so you could use the internet. Click Here.

    How much is Insurance going to cost me?

    The only person who can give you an answer to that is an Insurance company or a broker. Call them or quote on-line and find out. Nobody here can tell you even a ball park figure due to the variables involved in calculating insurance premiums.

    What kind of Insurance should I get?

    That's completely down to you and your own circumstances. There are four levels of Insurance cover in Ireland however you will probably only really find two of them on offer. These are

    Third Party Fire and Theft

    Comprehensive


    THESE ARE GUIDELINES, PLEASE CONSULT YOUR POLICY FOR A DEFINITIVE ANSWER.

    Third Party Fire and Theft covers your legal liability to others as well as offering you cover for damage sustained from theft or attempted theft or for the loss of the vehicle if it is stolen and not recovered. It will also cover you for loss of your vehicle by "self ignition, lightning or explosion and fire"

    Comprehensive will cover you for everything TPFT will as well as accidental damage and damage caused maliciously. In addition to this most policies will cover you for Personal Accident benefits, Loss of or damage to Personal Property (up to a certain monetary amount) and Breakage of glass in your windscreens/windows. Cars are pricey items, if you can't afford to replace your car should you suffer an accident irrespective of blame then it is advisable to insure your car with Comprehensive.

    What are the different Insurance Classes?

    There are four main types.

    Class 1a Social Domestic and Pleasure - This is normal vehicle use and includes commuting to and from work your normal place of work.

    Class 1b Includes use for business by the Policyholder. This would cover use by the insured in connection with their profession and travelling to different locations but excludes commercial travelling and the transit of commercial goods.

    Class 2 Includes carriage of commercial goods and samples in connection with the insureds employment. Ideal for a small business but excludes commercial travelling

    Class 3 covers Commercial travelling. Ideal for the likes of a Rep etc...

    Can I get Insurance for a few weeks?

    It's not something that is offered in Ireland really however the EU have changes coming down the line on this. Most insurers will only write 12 month policies. This doesn't mean that you can't incept a policy and then cancel when you don't need it any more. This may attract an admin fee and the refund given will be on a pro rata basis.

    Great, I've got my Insurance, what now?

    You will be issued with a certificate of Insurance and attached to this will be an Insurance disc. You're obliged by law to ensure that you have a current and up to date Insurance disc displayed in your windscreen at all times. The Gardai may ask you to further produce your certificate at the Garda station, as such, you should keep this cert safe at home.

    I've just got my renewal and it's more expensive than last year, why?

    There are many variables involved here however number one advice is SHOP AROUND. Don't just accept what you're given. Every year, pick up the phone and see if you can get the best price elsewhere. Sometimes, even your current insurer will be willing to match the better price to keep you. Any number of reasons can cause your premium to go up over last years and the main one is that sometimes the customer just accepts the renewal premium or last years was cheaper so as to lure you in.

    Is Insurance cheaper for men now because of the new EU Gender ruling?

    Not really. What is being seen in the market is a rise for females and minor decrease for males if indeed any at all.

    Will my Insurance be cheaper if I name my partner on the policy?

    Potentially. This spreads the risk. If your partner has their own vehicle and assuming that most policies have a third party extension this actually lessens the risk of your insurance and theirs should something occur and your partner was driving your vehicle.

    Why?

    Because if your partner has an accident in your vehicle as a named driver and has their own third party extension then their own insurer is liable for 50% of the third party costs associated with the claim.

    Does my Insurance allow me to drive other vehicles?

    Most policies do offer this however CHECK YOURS FIRST. Basically, this extension known mainly as the third party extension provides you with cover for third party liability while driving another motor vehicle which does not belong to you and which is not hired to you under a hire purchase or lease agreement.

    Does the other vehicle have to be insured?

    CHECK YOUR OWN POLICY. Some insurers say yes and some say no.

    I want to insure a car I don't own. Can I?

    Generally speaking, no. You need to have an insurable interest in a vehicle in order to insure it. As such, if you were to have a claim in a car you don't own your insurer may refuse to pay you for the loss of that vehicle.

    I am going away, should I cancel my Insurance?

    That's your call however you can choose to lay up your car. This means that you return your disc to your insurer. The vehicle will not be covered for Third party but will be for fire and theft. You will also receive a pro rata amount of your premium back.

    What is a Named Driver?

    This means that you are named on another persons policy of Insurance and can drive that vehicle but you are not the main driver and generally cannot gain a NCB (however some insurers do recognise named driving experience)

    My Licence has expired, am I now uninsured?

    No. Generally, Whilst you should have a valid licence letting it lapse isn't a big deal from an Insurance perspective. It is generally said that if you can hold a licence and have held a licence and there is nothing stopping you from holding a licence (and you're in the ten years renewal stage) then not having a valid licence does not invalidate your insurance.

    I've passed my test, Should I tell my Insurer?

    Yes, this is a big change and you're obliged to notify your insurance company of all material changes.

    I've passed my test and now my premium has gone up, is this normal?

    Unfortunately, it can happen. Basically you are considered more of a risk now that you have a full licence. On a provisional permit you had to be accompanied at all times by a full licence driver. Now as a full licence driver you are on your own and a greater risk of causing or being involved in an accident. Whilst this isn't guaranteed to be the case, don't be surprised to see a premium increase.

    Insurers won't insure me. What now?

    This does happen. You will need to get letters of refusal from all insurers who refuse you cover. You need three letters in total. Then approach the Irish Insurance Federation who will instruct an insurer to quote you. This quote might not be favourable to your pocket but it is still a quote.

    I have penalty points, should I bother telling my Insurer?

    Yes. Despite the fact that insurers will probably have access to the points database in the not so distant future IF they were to find out that you do have points and failed to tell them then they could well cancel your insurance policy. You are obliged to disclose if you've ever had an insurance policy cancelled in the past and you may find it hard to get a new policy with another insurer.

    I've had a claim in the past, will I tell my new insurer?

    Yes. Failure to do so can be seen as "Non Disclosure of a material fact" What this means for you is that when / if you ever have a claim or if the Insurer becomes aware of your history they could cancel your policy. They could also refuse to repair your vehicle and as they are forced to cover third party claims could also look to recover the full amount of the third party claim from you directly. Is it worth the risk? No.

    What happens when my car is written off?

    To simplify it, Your vehicle is assessed or a value determined by the Insurer. They will make you an offer. You can either accept or reject the offer. If you feel the offer is too low then you can argue your case with the insurance company. Take a few examples from Carzone etc and show that cars of similar spec and mileage are going for more than what you're being offered. When the deal is done, your insurer will own your car. You will have to give them your logbook. The vehicle will then be sold on for salvage in most cases. If the damage is minor but the motor was written off then you can in certain circumstances buy the vehicle back off the insurance company.

    I've had an accident, What should I do now?

    Call your Insurance company straight away and notify them of this accident. Despite who you think is at fault, thoughts can change and the person involved in the accident with you could well change their mind from being at fault to chasing you for the blame. It is imperative that your insurance company know what has happened straight away and to facilitate this, most have set up 24 hour claims notification lines.

    I am at fault for the accident and want to settle directly, Can I?

    If your insurer is happy to let you do so (and some may as the involvement of an insurer may prompt a personal injury claim from the other side) then yes you can but you still should tell them about it. You should also note that if you feel the other party is coming back with an expensive quote for repairs than you let your own insurance company look after the case and then pay your insurer back the outlay preserving your No Claims Discount and effectively treating the claim as if it never existed.

    My passenger opened the door in front of another car causing damage, what now?

    Your insurance extends to cover actions of your passenger whilst in your vehicle and that includes the damage that they caused to the other person.

    I was in an accident and my insurer found me liable. I think this is unfair but they won't listen and settled the other persons claim. What now?

    Your insurer has a right to take over the handling of the claim and settle it if they so wish. You may however lodge a complaint with your insurance company over their decision and if you're still not happy with their response you can escalate the matter to the ombudsman for impartial review.

    I was in a non fault accident and my personal property was damaged, is this covered?

    Yes, if you're not at fault for the accident then the other sides insurance company must compensate you for your damaged good.

    My car has been stolen, what do I do now?

    Call the Gardai straight away and report the theft of the vehicle to them. Then call your insurance company and notify them of the theft. Generally what happens after this is that your insurer may investigate the theft. They should send you a report form and ask you to fill it out and return it to them and may ask that it is stamped by the Gardai. Most insurers will ask that you wait 28 days before settling with you for the value of the vehicle. This means that if your car has not been recovered in four weeks that you will receive a cheque for an agreed amount. In return you will have to give your insurer your log book. Should the vehicle ever be located, it's now owned by the insurer. Your policy should also cover certain elements of personal property left in the vehicle. Check your own policy for details of these.

    My car has been stolen and recovered but it is damaged, what now?

    As always, notify your Insurance company. They will likely inspect your vehicle to determine if it is worth repairing. If they deem it to be a write off then they will attempt to settle with you for an agreed value of the vehicle less any excess on your policy. If they feel that the vehicle can be repaired then they will do so usually through their own approved repairers.

    There is finance on my car, what now?

    If you're car has been written off or stolen and there is finance owed then your insurer will pay your settlement directly to the finance company and the remainder of the balance to you (if applicable) They will not pay you directly if there is finance owed.

    What is GAP Insurance?

    More or less what is says on the tin. This insures the gap between what your insurer will settle with you for and what is owed on your finance. So if you owe GE Money 2000 and your settlement is 1500 then your GAP insurer will pay the remaining 500.

    What is an excess?

    An excess is the first monetary amount that you pay toward your claim and is only payable on own claims (fire, theft, a comprehensive claim) It basically exists to disway small claims for the likes of paint chips, wing mirrors etc.

    Do I have to use my Insurers Approved Repairers?

    No you don't however you should note that Insurers won't pay excessive repair costs associated with your garage if the same job can be done for less elsewhere.

    I don't have an NCT for my car, is this a problem?

    Yes, it is a potential issue. Most policies state that your vehicle must be roadworthy and some even go so far as to say that your vehicle must have a valid NCT however in the event of a claim it is most likely that your insurer will have to cover it unless they can prove that a vehicle deficency was a contrbutory factor of the accident.

    What's a No Claims Discount?

    In short, NCB was introduced by insurers so as stop small own damage claims. Eg: You knock your wing mirror off a wall. You are incentivised to acheive the maximum No Claims Bonus (generally 4 to 5 years) as you receive a discount on your premium for each year earned up to and sometimes exceeding 50% off.

    I've had a claim and lost my NCB, Why?

    NCB is more or less what it says on the tin. If you have a claim then you will lose some or all of your NCB. Some Insurers will only step your NCB back a degree and some will wipe it. (check your policy for details) Generally NCB is lost as a result of an at fault claim or a claim made by you for damage you cause under Comprehensive.

    I had a non fault claim but I have still lost my NCB, Why?

    When you have a claim that isn't your fault but claim against your own policy, your insurance company has to complete a number of tasks in order to get their money back. This can include, proving that the other side was liable and supporting the outlay of their claim. Variant on the other side, this can potentially be a time consuming matter and on top of this, can sometimes involve Solicitors and court. As a result, until your insurance company get their money back you lose out on your No Claims Bonus. When your NCB is reinstated you are then entitled to a full refund of what would have been discounted had you had the discount in the first place. This is a good reason to sometimes claim from the other side directly if liability is not contested.

    I've been hit by an uninsured driver. What now?**

    Report the incident to your Insurer. Notify the matter to the Gardai naturally and then notify the MIBI. The MIBI will cover the matter. They will either instruct your insurer if you have comprehensive cover to settle the matter as an agent for them or may instruct the last insurer involved with the uninsured vehicle to settle the claim. This should not affect your NCB. Go to www.mibi.ie for more information.

    **I am open to correction on this.

    What is NCB Protection?

    It protects your No Claims Bonus and means that if you have an accident and make a claim that your NCB is protected. Policies vary but if you have an at fault accident where you would normally lose your NCB, you don't. This isn't limitless though and after a certain amount of claims within a certain time span you will lose your protection and revert to Step Back. Despite your NCB being preserved, come renewal your premium will be loaded to reflect the claim and then the discount applied. It is also likely that another insurer will not accept your NCB should you have used your protection but this is quite rare in my experience. Most insurers insist that you have full NCB of five years before offering protection and they will most likely insist on an additional premium from you.

    What is Step Back?

    Like NCB Protection, when you have a claim your NCB is stepped back generally two years instead of being completely wiped. So you go from 5 to 3 instead of going straight to 0 meaning you still get some sort of discount come renewal.

    My Car has been written off, Can I get my car back?

    Under certain circumstances, yes, you can. When the Insurance company pays out on your car it becomes their car. You can negotiate with them to retain ownership of your car and pay a small fee for "salvage" however this is variant on the levels of damage the car has sustained and what damage bracket it has been placed into.

    Whats the spare parts for Japanese imports?

    There was a time when certain cars imported from Japan were not readily available here. This isn't as much of an issue in more recent times. The costs associated with importing certain parts of bodywork were excessive. This clause meant that any extra costs associated with the import on an own fault claim would not be covered by the Insurer. They would pay for the part but not for the extra costs involved bringing it in from Japan and not for the extra amount of time car hire was required to cover the import if applicable.

    What is New Car Replacement?

    Most insurers now replace a car during the first 12 months of it's life if it stolen and not recovered within 28 days or damaged to the extent that it would cost 60% or more the value of the vehicle to repair.

    What's the story with Windscreen and glass cover?

    This is mainly a standard thing in Comprehensive policies and also an additional benefit offered by most insurers. As they use "glass" in their policy, it is felt that all glass in the vehicle is covered including moon roofs and sun roofs. There is no excess applicable to a claim and it does not effect your NCB. Insurers will usually insist on one of their providers being used and in this case will not usually apply a limit on cost of repars.

    Personal Accident Insurance?

    I don't want to get into it here. It's offered on Comprehensive policies most of the time and is a benefit policy applicable to injury. Speak to your broker or insurer for more information.

    Breakdown Assistance

    This is often offered by Insurers. It can include the likes of home start etc. It also means that if you're left stranded that you and your vehicle will be rescued and either brought home or to your destination or indeed, put up in a B&B. These policies are broad and differ greatly. Check your own policy for details on what you're entitled too.

    Do I need a green card to travel abroad?

    EC Directives have made sure that all Insurers within the EU provide the minimum level of cover within the EU. As such, you don't actually need a green card however they are internationally recognised and make things a lot easier so if your insurer will give you one then take it. Generally speaking though, you are automatically covered for a trip abroad of 30 days (open to correction here)

    I need a Spanish Bail Bond.

    No you don't. EU directives have more or less done away with the need for these bonds and Insurers no longer issue them.

    Do I need to insure a car sitting on the side of the road?

    Technically, no. "It is illegal to drive or be in charge of a vehicle in a public place, unless there is a policy of Insurance in force which covers liabilities for injury or damage caused to others. So by rights, if the car is sitting at the side of the road without Insurance, it isn't an issue until you take charge of it.

    What's a public place?

    "Any place where the public have access with vehicles"

    I've sold my car, should I cancel my Insurance?

    Yes, straight away. Your Insurer could be caught as "Insurer Concerned" should anything happen with the new owner while your policy is in place.

    I've got two Insurance policies in place for the same car, what happens now I need to make a claim?

    Simple, one insurer will take the lead and the other will sit back however both insurers will have to pay 50% of the claims costs on the associated risk. So if Insurer A has Comp and Insurer B has TPFT then B will pay 50% of the third party costs.

    My car isn't taxed, will this matter to my Insurer?

    No

    I know somebody making a fraudulent claim, What should I do?

    Call 1890 333 333 and tell Insurance Confidential.
    There are certain conditions also bestowed onto you as an Insured. Duties we will call them. You for example need to ensure that you always mitigate losses (act as if you were uninsured) An example of this could be to make sure that you don't leave your keys in the front door of your house or indeed, in the ignition unattended as somebody could steal your car.

    There are also certain exclusions that are in most policies.

    Damage caused as a result of the following are generally not covered
    1. War/ Terrorism
    2. Radioactive Contamination or Nuclear risk
    3. Riot, Earthquake and civil unrest
    4. Racing and rallies.


«13456728

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭bassey


    Only thing I ever tell people when asking about cheapest car insurance is...

    Step 1: Get out phone book

    Step 2: Get quote from every insurer in phone book

    Step 3: Ring back second cheapest place with cheapest places quote

    Step 4: Repeat


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,157 ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    Fair play to ya! I'll sticky this in a bit. I'll let people read it first!

    Great great post man...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Fair play to ya! I'll sticky this in a bit. I'll let people read it first!

    Great great post man...
    It's amazing what I'll do to avoid study :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,106 ✭✭✭✭TestTransmission


    Kudos to me for this great idea. :pac: (and MugMugs I suppose)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭pred racer


    MugMugs wrote: »
    It's amazing what I'll do to avoid study :D
    Kudos to me for this great idea. :pac: (and MugMugs I suppose)

    Nice job TT:P

    Studying is for mugs........ :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,084 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    MugMugs wrote: »
    Damage caused as a result of the following are generally not covered
    1. War/ Terrorism
    2. Radioactive Contamination or Nuclear risk
    3. Riot, Earthquake and civil unrest
    4. Racing and rallies.
    No. 3 is a bit of a pisser!

    Would those cars set on fire during the Love Ulster uproar be covered?

    p.s. Great thread, MM.

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    MugMugs that's a brilliant job. !!!!

    I have few suggestions.

    1.One thing that came to my mind in here is to specify that it applies to your vehicle, as some people might not be sure.
    Third Party Fire and Theft covers your legal liability to others as well as offering you cover for damage on your vehicle sustained from theft or attempted theft or for the loss of the vehicle if it is stolen and not recovered. It will also cover you for loss of your vehicle by "self ignition, lightning or explosion and fire"

    Comprehensive will cover you for everything TPFT will as well as accidental damage and damage caused maliciously on your vehicle. In addition to this most policies will cover you for Personal Accident benefits, Loss of or damage to Personal Property (up to a certain monetary amount) and Breakage of glass in your windscreens/windows. Cars are pricey items, if you can't afford to replace your car should you suffer an accident irrespective of blame then it is advisable to insure your car with Comprehensive.

    2.
    Do I need a green card to travel abroad?

    EC Directives have made sure that all Insurers within the EU provide the minimum level of cover within the EU. As such, you don't actually need a green card however they are internationally recognised and make things a lot easier so if your insurer will give you one then take it. Generally speaking though, you are automatically covered for a trip abroad of 30 days (open to correction here)

    In general Green card is an old relic of pre-EU times, and it's not needed anywhere in the EU, and there wouldn't be any benefits of having it if travelling within EU.
    Also automatic cover for 30 days abroad is not really true.
    Third party cover must be provided without any time limits by all insurers, but fire, theft, and comprehensive part is totally dependent on insurer so they might not even offer this 30 days. Most insurers do, but some require you to let them know you are going abroad to maintain this cover. Some insurers provide cover for longer - 60 days, 90 days or unlimited, and some of them require to tell them about journey, some don't.
    However unlimited third party cover which makes the car road-legal is always unlimited and doesn't require informing insurer.



    And here below I have a question.
    I've sold my car, should I cancel my Insurance?

    Yes, straight away. Your Insurer could be caught as "Insurer Concerned" should anything happen with the new owner while your policy is in place.

    I've never heard of it.
    What in case someone sells his car, and buys new one week later. No point in cancelling insurance for this week.
    I'm really surprised, as I've done it many times, and I wasn't aware I was putting my self in any risk.
    But what kind of risk would it be? I was thinking that once the car is not mine, my insurer has nothing to do with it - over. But maybe it's not that simple.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭Jimdagym


    CiniO wrote: »
    And here below I have a question.


    I've never heard of it.
    What in case someone sells his car, and buys new one week later. No point in cancelling insurance for this week.
    I'm really surprised, as I've done it many times, and I wasn't aware I was putting my self in any risk.
    But what kind of risk would it be? I was thinking that once the car is not mine, my insurer has nothing to do with it - over. But maybe it's not that simple.

    You suspend your policy as soon as you sell your car and reactivate it when you get your new one. I did this last year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,080 ✭✭✭✭Big Nasty


    tl; dr ;)




    Yeah, yeah I know. I'm not in AH now etc.

    Great job Mugs! :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,575 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    Is having stickied articles to discourage people asking questions in the spirit of a discussion board?

    I appreciate that it may annoy when the same posts come up again and again, but boards.ie is primarily a place for discussion, not a repository of knowledge or articles.

    It is a forum, not an encyclopaedia.

    I say let the questions be asked again.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    CiniO wrote: »
    In general Green card is an old relic of pre-EU times, and it's not needed anywhere in the EU, and there wouldn't be any benefits of having it if travelling within EU.
    Also automatic cover for 30 days abroad is not really true.
    Third party cover must be provided without any time limits by all insurers, but fire, theft, and comprehensive part is totally dependent on insurer so they might not even offer this 30 days. Most insurers do, but some require you to let them know you are going abroad to maintain this cover. Some insurers provide cover for longer - 60 days, 90 days or unlimited, and some of them require to tell them about journey, some don't.
    However unlimited third party cover which makes the car road-legal is always unlimited and doesn't require informing insurer.
    Cheers, to be honest, I couldn't find a reference for this and I was drawing a blank in my head. You're right with the above though and the "Motor Insurance Directives" have facilitated these changes.

    Thanks CiniO
    CiniO wrote: »
    I've never heard of it.
    What in case someone sells his car, and buys new one week later. No point in cancelling insurance for this week.
    I'm really surprised, as I've done it many times, and I wasn't aware I was putting my self in any risk.
    But what kind of risk would it be? I was thinking that once the car is not mine, my insurer has nothing to do with it - over. But maybe it's not that simple.
    Jimdagym wrote: »
    You suspend your policy as soon as you sell your car and reactivate it when you get your new one. I did this last year.
    This is more or less it.

    I perhaps should have explained it a bit better.

    If you sell your car and don't tell your insurer then that vehicle is still covered for third party loss by them. If something happens they have to potentially get involved under Insurer Concerned. Whilst you don't actually have to cancel the policy it should at the very least be suspended as noted by Jimdagym.

    Basically, when I was doing this I was looking at past queries and the OP at the time wasn't replacing his vehicle so a suspension would have been useless. I never considered somebody buying another vehicle. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Esel wrote: »
    No. 3 is a bit of a pisser!

    Would those cars set on fire during the Love Ulster uproar be covered?

    p.s. Great thread, MM.

    Cheers.

    Yeah, it's the one condition that I've seen more or less all of my time in Insurance. Even in the UK when I worked in London it was quite a predominant condition in Insurance Policies.

    The people affected by the Love Ulster riots could well have had their claims declined under this condition.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    MugMugs wrote: »
    Cheers, to be honest, I couldn't find a reference for this and I was drawing a blank in my head. You're right with the above though and the "Motor Insurance Directives" have facilitated these changes.

    Thanks CiniO



    This is more or less it.

    I perhaps should have explained it a bit better.

    If you sell your car and don't tell your insurer then that vehicle is still covered for third party loss by them. If something happens they have to potentially get involved under Insurer Concerned. Whilst you don't actually have to cancel the policy it should at the very least be suspended as noted by Jimdagym.

    Basically, when I was doing this I was looking at past queries and the OP at the time wasn't replacing his vehicle so a suspension would have been useless. I never considered somebody buying another vehicle. :)
    I sold my car privately a few years back so I didnt immediately have another car to swap onto. Rang axa to inform them that car was now sold and in the coning weeks I would be getting a new car. Lady said there was nothing she had to do as long as I wasnt cancelling policy. After insisting that I wasnt happy to possibly have my insurance associated with the new owner, she finally agreed to put a note on the account. Didnt appear to be standard procedure at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    mickdw wrote: »
    I sold my car privately a few years back so I didnt immediately have another car to swap onto. Rang axa to inform them that car was now sold and in the coning weeks I would be getting a new car. Lady said there was nothing she had to do as long as I wasnt cancelling policy. After insisting that I wasnt happy to possibly have my insurance associated with the new owner, she finally agreed to put a note on the account. Didnt appear to be standard procedure at all.

    I can tell you from first hand experience that there's a very fine line between Personal Lines (the people you speak to about quotes) and The Claims Departments.

    They don't like each other very much and that always stemmed from a clear lack of communication on both sides.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,106 ✭✭✭✭TestTransmission


    Is having stickied articles to discourage people asking questions in the spirit of a discussion board?

    I appreciate that it may annoy when the same posts come up again and again, but boards.ie is primarily a place for discussion, not a repository of knowledge or articles.

    It is a forum, not an encyclopaedia.

    I say let the questions be asked again.

    It's simply here as a FAQ, no one is stopping a discussion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,974 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    great post MugMugs, now we just need one on the rules of the road, round-abouts and what car to buy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Ronnie Beck


    Don't know if I should put this in here or a new thread. Mods move it if you want.

    I am currently insured on my own commercial vehicle only and will have two years no claims at the end of the month when my policy expires.
    I will renew that policy with one company or another.
    At the weekend I bought a car. Looking for quotes at the moment with the girlfriend as a named driver.
    Question is can I use the two years no claims on the car policy aswell as the van policy or do I have to start with zero years no claims on the new car.
    Aviva told me that their policy is that I can't and effectively have zero no claims and wouldn't give me a quote :confused:. I'm wondering is this standard for all insurance companies?

    Help on the issue much appreciated.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Theoretically an Insurer can "mirror" the two NCB however it generally has to be the same insurer. It's also a little difficult to get done as commercial and private are miles apart in terms of risk. Personally, I'd employ the help of a good Broker to see what they can swing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    Don't know if I should put this in here or a new thread. Mods move it if you want.

    I am currently insured on my own commercial vehicle only and will have two years no claims at the end of the month when my policy expires.
    I will renew that policy with one company or another.
    At the weekend I bought a car. Looking for quotes at the moment with the girlfriend as a named driver.
    Question is can I use the two years no claims on the car policy aswell as the van policy or do I have to start with zero years no claims on the new car.
    Aviva told me that their policy is that I can't and effectively have zero no claims and wouldn't give me a quote :confused:. I'm wondering is this standard for all insurance companies?

    Help on the issue much appreciated.

    There are a couple of companies - Setanta & Chartis / AIG spring to mind - that will allow you to mirror the 2 years on the commercial onto a private.

    The problem will be having your girlfriend named on the car, especially is she is a first time driver / provisional licence holder.

    It looks like, whether its the case or not, that you are looking for insurance just to cover her. In my experience, no insurer will let you mirror the bonus with an inexperienced driver included.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,464 ✭✭✭FGR


    Just in relation to being hit by an uninsured driver - the mibi will not cover the damage if the other party cannot be identified. A lot of victims of hit and run incidents end up losing out big time if there's no independent witness or cctv showing the reg of the vehicle involved.

    Great post btw.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Excellent post MugsMugs. I just have a question regarding the bit I have underlined here.
    MugMugs wrote: »

    I am at fault for the accident and want to settle directly, Can I?

    If your insurer is happy to let you do so (and some may as the involvement of an insurer may prompt a personal injury claim from the other side) then yes you can but you still should tell them about it. You should also note that if you feel the other party is coming back with an expensive quote for repairs than you let your own insurance company look after the case and then pay your insurer back the outlay preserving your No Claims Discount and effectively treating the claim as if it never existed.

    Basically I was involved in a small accident last year which was totally my fault. The cost of the damage was very small on the third partys car and there was no damage to mine. Anyway the third party had been sorted out very quickly and my insurance company gave me the option of letting them pay for the damage and as long as I paid them back before my renewal that my entire NCB would be restored. I obviously went ahead with this.

    Does this mean that I now have a "clean slate" again? Do I have to inform future insurance companies about the accident? Was the claim treated as if it never existed? Does it exist?

    Thanks :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    shaaane wrote: »
    Excellent post MugsMugs. I just have a question regarding the bit I have underlined here.



    Basically I was involved in a small accident last year which was totally my fault. The cost of the damage was very small on the third partys car and there was no damage to mine. Anyway the third party had been sorted out very quickly and my insurance company gave me the option of letting them pay for the damage and as long as I paid them back before my renewal that my entire NCB would be restored. I obviously went ahead with this.

    Does this mean that I now have a "clean slate" again? Do I have to inform future insurance companies about the accident? Was the claim treated as if it never existed? Does it exist?

    Thanks :)
    You'll have to disclose an at fault claim with an outlay of zero. This shouldn't actually affect any quotes you get.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    MugMugs wrote: »
    You'll have to disclose an at fault claim with an outlay of zero. This shouldn't actually affect any quotes you get.

    Thanks for the reply! Ya I thought I would have to tell the insurance companies about any previous history, regardless on how the situation was dealt with. I was delighted when they gave me the option of keeping my NCB so I'm just as happy to keep as honest with them as I was previously. Hopefully any future quotes won't be affected. Thanks again MugsMugs :D


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    From recent experience, a caveat for commercial owners, and this can include things like crew cab owners.

    Was always used to a clause that allowed driving another vehicle on the policy, as long as it's not owned, or hired to the policy holder, so giving basic cover to drive a friend's car.

    Be VERY careful if your policy is for a commercial vehicle, as it may restrict "other" cover to commercial vehicles only, so you can get the crazy situation where a family member is a named driver for the commercial, so you swap for the day so she can collect some furniture or similar, and you drive their car. You may NOT be covered to drive the car. Only way round this is for family member to get commercial owner put on their car as a named driver.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Reason for this is the vast potential difference between commercial and private vehicles. Well stated. :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 221 ✭✭Mr. Wong


    Great thread MM.

    Easier to understand in plain English.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭Mar4ix


    I had a windscreen claim last year(2012 in beginning of March - so over a year now) , 320 quid cost to insurance company- all setled, otherwise i have no claims 6 years, i am shopping around, and getting silly offers, at the moment i have 520 with currant insurer renewal quote, and over the phone ... not a cent less :( , but all the rest are over 6 and 700. it is 98 car, with 1.8 petrol engine, me with full eu licenses, 6 years no claim bonus, license since 1997, in Ireland 8 years.....
    Is that silly quotes only because of that windscreen claim ?? I had all those fancy no claim protection and step back somethin, most of them wont quote at all over internet.

    sick by now :( from those quotes, maybe try another day, as i have another two weeks till current insurance will expire.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    2 things.

    Do you have an Irish licence or is it a licence issued from outside or Ireland or the UK?

    Alot of insurers apply loadings to European licences.

    I do think however the major reason is because your car is now 15 years old.

    Most insurers apply loadings on vehicles more than 15 years old.

    The windscreen claim would have no bearing on your insurance at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭Mar4ix


    Necronos wrote: »
    2 things.

    Do you have an Irish licence or is it a licence issued from outside or Ireland or the UK?

    Alot of insurers apply loadings to European licences.

    I do think however the major reason is because your car is now 15 years old.

    Most insurers apply loadings on vehicles more than 15 years old.

    The windscreen claim would have no bearing on your insurance at all.

    it is 15 year old car, insurance company accept 15 years old cars.
    I have Full EU driver license (Latvian) , I cant see difference what license i have, i can get Full Irish license just pay 55 euro with pictures and some dockets. info here -> http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/exchanging_foreign_driving_permit.html


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    Mar4ix wrote: »
    it is 15 year old car, insurance company accept 15 years old cars.
    I have Full EU driver license (Latvian) , I cant see difference what license i have, i can get Full Irish license just pay 55 euro with pictures and some dockets. info here -> http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/exchanging_foreign_driving_permit.html

    I know they accept 15 year old cars, what I was saying is that most of them charge more for comprehensive insurance on cars aged 15 years or more,it is because it is older and considered more likely to break down, and due to its age it may not be fitted with an alarm or an immobiliser or other security features.

    In relation to the licence, there are some companies that charge more money if you have a European licence rather than an Irish/UK one.Its not fair but the reason is that some EU countries drive on the left hand side of the road.The insurers consider people with this licence type as been a higher risk and so charge you more for the insurance.

    As I said, its not a fair system, but its how some of the companies operate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭Mar4ix


    Necronos wrote: »
    I know they accept 15 year old cars, what I was saying is that most of them charge more for comprehensive insurance on cars aged 15 years or more,it is because it is older and considered more likely to break down, and due to its age it may not be fitted with an alarm or an immobiliser or other security features.

    In relation to the licence, there are some companies that charge more money if you have a European licence rather than an Irish/UK one.Its not fair but the reason is that some EU countries drive on the left hand side of the road.The insurers consider people with this licence type as been a higher risk and so charge you more for the insurance.

    As I said, its not a fair system, but its how some of the companies operate.

    Thanks for your input.

    Car has factory build in immobilizer and alarm.

    I have 6 years no claim bonus.

    Actually from the whole driving experience ..( got license in 1997, in Ireland from beginning of 2005 ) id say i have majority of driving experience with right hand drive wheel car.

    I am using broker, and actually directly doing online application (just checked) with insurance company, i have 100 euro cheaper quote... 410 it is kind ok .. me thinks, ... but with brokers a bit better conditions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭Mar4ix


    well, today ordered ... 479 with all possible bells and whistles.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    great post MugMugs, now we just need one on the rules of the road, round-abouts and what car to buy.
    Tyres, tyres we need one on tyres. "I want tyres for me Beemer what should I get?", "Me Passat came without tyres, what should I do?", "Me mate in America uses tires on his car, can I?"

    Great job @Mugs Mugs.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    A few suggested amendments for your consideration:

    Does my Insurance allow me to drive other vehicles?

    Most policies offer this facility, however CHECK YOURS FIRST. Basically, this extension known as the third party or the driving other cars extension, provides you with third party cover while driving another car which does not belong to you and which is not hired to you under a hire purchase or lease agreement.

    You must be driving with the owner’s explicit permission and your insurance company may also insist on “like-for-like” driving e.g on a private policy you cannot drive a commercial vehicle and if you’re insured on a 1 litre Micra, they won’t cover you to drive a Bugatti Veyron.

    ...

    I am going away, should I cancel my Insurance?

    That's your call however you can choose to lay up your car. This means that you return your disc to your insurer. The vehicle will not be covered for Third party but will be for fire and theft. You will also receive a pro rata amount of your premium back, but you may be subject to administration charges for suspending and/or re-instating the policy. Again check your policy and check with your broker / insurer.

    ...

    I've sold my car, should I cancel my Insurance?

    Yes, straight away. Your Insurer could be caught as "Insurer Concerned" should anything happen with the new owner while your policy is in place.

    Inform your insurer by phone and remember to remove the disc from the windscreen and to return both the disc and the insurance certificate to your insurer / broker. Any refund or credit due will be calculated from the date they receive these back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭Mar4ix


    mathepac wrote: »
    A few suggested amendments for your consideration:

    Does my Insurance allow me to drive other vehicles?

    Most policies offer this facility, however CHECK YOURS FIRST. Basically, this extension known as the third party or the driving other cars extension, provides you with third party cover while driving another car which does not belong to you and which is not hired to you under a hire purchase or lease agreement.

    You must be driving with the owner’s explicit permission and your insurance company may also insist on “like-for-like” driving e.g on a private policy you cannot drive a commercial vehicle and if you’re insured on a 1 litre Micra, they won’t cover you to drive a Bugatti Veyron.

    ...

    Also cars has to be insured, non insured cars can not be driven
    (like my friends car is not insured, he asked me(I am covered on other cars) moved from place A to place B - big NO NO )

    FYP ... at least insurance broker said that to me.
    Any extra info regarding that bold text ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,930 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    Mar4ix wrote: »
    FYP ... at least insurance broker said that to me.
    Any extra info regarding that bold text ?

    Depends on your insurance policy.

    Used to be the case with Quinn that the other vehicle did NOT need insurance, but did need to be roadworthy (ie. NCT) to be driven. AFAIK this carried through to Liberty policies, but I've yet to read the fine print.



    Something I didn't see mentioned in relation to travelling abroad - Should you inform your insurance company when you're making a trip within the EU, or is there any need as you already have your policy documents outlining terms of cover?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Think they actually confirmed that recently on their talk to forum too from memory.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Mar4ix wrote: »
    I have Full EU driver license (Latvian) , I cant see difference what license i have, i can get Full Irish license just pay 55 euro with pictures and some dockets. info here -> http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/exchanging_foreign_driving_permit.html

    The difference is that on Latvian driving licence, you can not collect penalty points in Ireland. Therefore if you could afford, you could get caught speeding every single day and just pay 80 quid fine - your licence wouldn't be taken off you.

    That's the reason why insurance companies can't offer you discounts for "0 penalty points", as they are not able to verify them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Necronos wrote: »
    I know they accept 15 year old cars, what I was saying is that most of them charge more for comprehensive insurance on cars aged 15 years or more,it is because it is older and considered more likely to break down, and due to its age it may not be fitted with an alarm or an immobiliser or other security features.


    That doesn't make too much sense to me.
    They can indeed charge more for breakdown cover for older car, as you said older car is more likely to break down, but usually "breakdown cover" is small part of premium anyway.

    Older car might be not fitted with alarm or immobileiser and possibly makes it more likely to be stolen, but it's value is usually very little, so in case of theft claim it's going to small amount to pay for insurer. While new car if stolen, might cost tens of thousands.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭Mar4ix


    CiniO wrote: »
    The difference is that on Latvian driving licence, you can not collect penalty points in Ireland. Therefore if you could afford, you could get caught speeding every single day and just pay 80 quid fine - your licence wouldn't be taken off you.

    That's the reason why insurance companies can't offer you discounts for "0 penalty points", as they are not able to verify them.

    I believe , there is data base, where penalty points counts on any foreign person , who dont have irish license, also id say for insurance company there shouldnt be problems kindly ask Garda, look up for particular person.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Mar4ix wrote: »
    I believe , there is data base, where penalty points counts on any foreign person , who dont have irish license,
    There is, but points collected in this database has no validity until you swap licence for Irish.
    So in theory you could collect them up to infinity.
    also id say for insurance company there shouldnt be problems kindly ask Garda, look up for particular person.

    Ask about what?
    They ask for penalty point and verify them.
    On foreign licence there is no points, so nothing to verify.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭Mar4ix


    CiniO wrote: »
    There is, but points collected in this database has no validity until you swap licence for Irish.
    So in theory you could collect them up to infinity.



    Ask about what?
    They ask for penalty point and verify them.
    On foreign licence there is no points, so nothing to verify.


    According this -> http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/penalty_points_for_driving_offences.html

    which says: " Penalty points also apply to drivers with foreign driving licences driving in Ireland. If someone is driving in Ireland on a foreign licence, the driver's details are held on a separate database for the purpose of recording penalty points. If that driver applies for and obtains an Irish driving licence, the penalty points are then activated on that licence. "

    So , there is data base, but i cant find information about look ups for particular person .

    I cant understand, why RSA cant make foreign license accompany with something like license identity card (which tight up with pps number and name and surname) , which has a number. and put penalty points on that card, which collects offenses for that driver. If somebody requesting insurance, insurance company may ask for that card number, from where they can check penalty points, if needed.
    Implement is easy, do insurance on foreign license only with that card number.
    So , when applying for that card, have to give to authorities foreign drivers license for check with particular country and verify identity, after that information processed in to database.
    Such thing will remove fake license also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    CiniO wrote: »
    That doesn't make too much sense to me.
    They can indeed charge more for breakdown cover for older car, as you said older car is more likely to break down, but usually "breakdown cover" is small part of premium anyway.

    Older car might be not fitted with alarm or immobileiser and possibly makes it more likely to be stolen, but it's value is usually very little, so in case of theft claim it's going to small amount to pay for insurer. While new car if stolen, might cost tens of thousands.

    I would imagine part of it is the fact that a vehicle aged 15 years plus is likely to have a lot of mileage on it therefore is more likely to suffer some kind of mechanical fault eg brakes failing.Also replacement parts could be harder to come by too.

    The above is purely speculation on my part btw, Ive never worked in underwriting but have worked in a big brokers and for a big insurer too and age of vehicle loadings are pretty common.

    One company even had an AOV load for vehicles over 12 years of age.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭eirator


    Simple question I have 3 quotes all comp all for the same car, do I just go for the cheapest or are there any features I should look for that might add value to the policies and perhaps make the cheapest one less attractive?

    iirc sticking with my existing policy is €360 and the cheapest quote is €300 with the other somewhere in the middle, same details used for each quote.

    I just want convincing that cheapest is best or otherwise?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    eirator wrote: »
    Simple question I have 3 quotes all comp all for the same car, do I just go for the cheapest or are there any features I should look for that might add value to the policies and perhaps make the cheapest one less attractive?

    iirc sticking with my existing policy is €360 and the cheapest quote is €300 with the other somewhere in the middle, same details used for each quote.

    I just want convincing that cheapest is best or otherwise?

    The easiest way to find out is to get a policy booklet for each of the policies and read them. They are usually available on insurers website.
    Then you will know exactly what you are buying.

    Most people don't care, but policies differ significently between each other and it's good to find the most suitable one, especially if price difference is not big like in your case.

    Examples might be that some policies cover for driving abroad for unlimited time while other might provide cover only for 30 days. (if you drive abroad a lot this is crucial)
    Some offer step back NCB protection included in price, while on others it's extra which you have to pay extra for. Also rules for step back and full NCB protection differ a lot.
    Some policies don't affect NCB for theft and fire claims while others do.
    Some allow you to drive other cars even if other car is not insured by owner, while others don't.
    Some include breakdown cover while others don't or charge extra.
    Some charge for any amendments in the policy while others don't. (this will be relevant a lot if you often change vehicles or add f.e. visiting family members to your policy temporarily when they come over for a visit).

    There is only a small bit of differences, and generally it is worth to read the policy document to know exactly what you are buying.

    PS - what insurer is the cheapest and what is the most expensive?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭eirator


    OK so got the docs out from the AA (so I'm lazy) ....

    The basics I can gather so far....

    AIG €358.46 Excess €200* No claims one in 3 years then stepback for second in 5 years. Glass upto €400 doesn't affect ncd, driving other cars covered

    RSA (Drivesafe scheme) €326.96 Excess €250, No claims one in 3 years then stepback for second in 5 years looks like a steeper stepback than above. Glass unlimited but might affect ncd. Need to check about driving other cars

    RSA (Value Scheme) €300.71 Excess €500, No no claims protection (except F&T), Need to check about driving other cars

    All have 31days full cover for the EU and the usual AA stuff like Personal Accident and Legal Expenses. tbh can't really see much of a difference between the highest and the next one the cheapest is the cheapest for obvious reasons.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭thegills


    Hi eirator.
    I just got quotes from AA but nearer the €500. If you don't mind could you let me know the finer details of your quote - car value, cc, your age, etc. I am just over 40!!, 2.0L 2006 VW Passat with 7 years NCB.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,015 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    CiniO wrote: »
    PS - what insurer is the cheapest and what is the most expensive?

    They'll probably target different market segments, so some will be more competitive for younger drivers, some for old.
    I'm up for renewal and filled in a few online quotes last night.
    Here's the results so far sorted from highest to lowest... happy to accept other insurer recommendations too...

    Details : 40 year old male, full drivers licence 10 years+, never any claims, 10 years+ NCB, Honda Civic 1.8l (€8000), West Dublin

    Policy: Comprehensive with NCB protection, direct debit

    Tesco Finest : €564.24
    Axa : €492.04
    Tesco Standard : €478.23 ( ncb protection )
    Briton (Brokers) : €452.91 ( used to be competive, not in the last few years though )
    No Nonsense : €447.68 ( taking the p*ss with their name)
    Aviva : €429.85
    123 : €411.89 (Comprehensive "extra", full NCB protection, plus direct debit charge)
    123 : €388.60 (Comprehensive "extra", full NCB protection, pay up front)
    Tesco Value : €351.33 ( no ncb protection, no extras )

    So I'm leaning more towards 123 at the moment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Being honest, nobody can come close to touching 123.ie at the moment for me.

    They've blown pretty much every other quote I've gotten out of the water.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    Try Chill.ie. They have been consistently the cheapest for me over the last three years.


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