Magdalene Laundries, and the Billion Euro Savings

Mint Sauce

Maybe I have been reading the Conspiracy Forum a bit much, but I'm finding it very convenient that the Government were announcing a billion euro in savings from the recent Anglo deal, weeks before a Magdalene Laundries apology.

Now before I go any further, this is not any kind of dig at them girls/women who suffered, but it was doubted that the victims would not get an apology as it would cost the government too much in compensation. Then we have the government touting this deal they got, saving us all this money, can easily see some of this now going towards to compo fund.

Again, the government, and Enda have come up smelling of roses, and have to wonder if the Anglo deal was only done, as the government knew news was going to break of their involvement in the Laundries, and would need cash quick.

srsly78

I doubt they saved a billion euros just by having their laundry done for free.

fishy fishy

its amazing how a bit of coaching can have people in this country doing a complete u-turn on what they think of people

if edna was so upset (as he seems to have been last night) about what happened to these women, why didn't he offer some sort of personal feeling and hint at an apology two weeks ago, instead of waiting to be coached.

no wonder FF is back on top in the polls - with people falling for nonsense like this.

I am not talking about the actual magdalene women here either - they deserve their apology and a lot more. I'm talking about the rest of this country going around praising edna to the high hilt because of a few croc tears. Wise UP

also, was mary coughlan in the magdelene??

seamus

The compensation for the laundries will be absolute pennies compared to the promissory note deal. It's very far fetched to think that they went to all that trouble just to scrape that cash together. It would be like remortgaging your house so you could buy a new iPhone.

if edna was so upset (as he seems to have been last night) about what happened to these women, why didn't he offer some sort of personal feeling and hint at an apology two weeks ago

And if he had apologised two weeks ago, people would have said that it was a hollow apology made without feeling because he couldn't possibly have had time to read the report and understand the suffering of the women.

Just can't win. Whiners will continue to whine no matter what you do.

padd b1975

irish-stew wrote: »

Maybe I have been reading the Conspiracy Forum a bit much

Indeed.

snubbleste

The Magladene report only came out two weeks go. It needs to be read and digested and then responded to. Kenny did the right thing - he read the report,discussed it with cabinet, met the groups concerned and then spoke on behalf of the country.
As for the Anglo deal, Noonan made it clear that it was going to happen at some point since autumn until end February before payments became due end March

Mint Sauce

seamus wrote: »

The compensation for the laundries will be absolute pennies compared to the promissory note deal. It's very far fetched to think that they went to all that trouble just to scrape that cash together. It would be like remortgaging your house so you could buy a new iPhone.

Hence my comment on some of the money going towards it. If the money wasn't there, I doubt the government could not have afforded the apology. Now the government have came up twice in the eyes of some.

Even though one of the deals have put a 40 year debt on the country, and the other announcement might not have been done only for that deal.

I genually do though hope the women get their share, regardless how the funding was sourced.

padd b1975

fishy fishy wrote: »

if edna was so upset (as he seems to have been last night) about what happened to these women, why didn't he offer some sort of personal feeling and hint at an apology two weeks ago, instead of waiting to be coached.

He did.

Mr Kenny expressed his sympathies with survivors and the families of those who
died.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21326221

padd b1975

irish-stew wrote: »

Hence my comment on some of the money going towards it. If the money wasn't there, I doubt the government could not have afforded the apology. Now the government have came up twice in the eyes of some.

Even though one of the deals have put a 40 year debt on the country, and the other announcement might not have been done only for that deal.

I genually do though hope the women get their share, regardless how the funding was sourced.

There is no extra money.

All the deal means is that we are borrowing less.

fishy fishy

snubbleste wrote: »

The Magladene report only came out two weeks go. It needs to be read and digested and then responded to. Kenny did the right thing - he read the report,discussed it with cabinet, met the groups concerned and then spoke on behalf of the country.
As for the Anglo deal, Noonan made it clear that it was going to happen at some point since autumn until end February before payments became due end March

the magdalene laundries and what went on there have been talked about for YEARS. NOBODY gave a toss. Edna kenny didn't even give a toss two weeks ago. Unless he was living under a rock he knew what went on there. he had to wait to be coached.

empathy and sorrow will show through naturally - you don't put it off for a couple of weeks until you get your ducks in a row.

davet82

"Magdalene Laundries, and the Billion Euro Savings"

I thought this was gonna be a suggestion to re-open them...

Mint Sauce

padd b1975 wrote: »

There is no extra money.

All the deal means is that we are borrowing less.

We are borrowing less over a longer period, so it frees up money, atleast this is my understanding.

Azure_sky

Tax the church to compensate the victims; don't tax the innocent.

Death and Taxes

irish-stew wrote: »

Maybe I have been reading the Conspiracy Forum a bit much, .

You have OP, way too much!

Ash.J.Williams

Azure_sky wrote: »

Tax the church to compensate the victims; don't tax the innocent.

It wasn't just the church this time! It was our fault too!

G Power

there is no 1 billion euro saving!! the government are trying to say they'll save a billion each year over the next 3 years but a groupe of us had an economics lecturer from NUIG explain the figure is closer to 1 bellion over the course of the next 3 years and in all likelyhood that 1 billion will be swallowed up one way or another so in reality all we're left with is a massive debt we had nothing to do with getting landed on our children's children's heads

Azure_sky

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

It wasn't just the church this time! It was our fault too!

How was it our fault? Some tax payers were not even born when it happened. That's kind of the original sin morality which the Catholic Church endorses.

awec

G Power wrote: »

there is no 1 billion euro saving!! the government are trying to say they'll save a billion each year over the next 3 years but a groupe of us had an economics lecturer from NUIG explain the figure is closer to 1 bellion over the course of the next 3 years and in all likelyhood that 1 billion will be swallowed up one way or another so in reality all we're left with is a massive debt we had nothing to do with getting landed on our children's children's heads

Baffling.

goose2005

fishy fishy wrote: »

I am not talking about the actual magdalene women here either - they deserve their apology and a lot more. I'm talking about the rest of this country going around praising edna to the high hilt because of a few croc tears. Wise UP

Moreover, he's been a TD since 1975 -- did he ever speak out on the matter when it could have made a difference?

DarkJager

This might be a controversial opinion, but I don't feel comfortable with the idea of taxpayers subsidising a redress fund for this. Yes, there was an element of state involvement but lets not forget that the orders & church that ran these laundries are 99.9% responsible for what happened inside them. I'd happily see the Church bled dry for every last miserable cent they have, but I don't feel that taxpayers and a government that didn't even exist while these places were in operation should be footing the bill for compensation.

Azure_sky

DarkJager wrote: »

This might be a controversial opinion, but I don't feel comfortable with the idea of taxpayers subsidising a redress fund for this. Yes, there was an element of state involvement but lets not forget that the orders & church that ran these laundries are 99.9% responsible for what happened inside them. I'd happily see the Church bled dry for every last miserable cent they have, but I don't feel that taxpayers and a government that didn't even exist while these places were in operation should be footing the bill for compensation.

Indeed. Victims compensated and the Catholic Church taxed to the point where it cannot continue to exist in this country. A win/win result.

tritium

G Power wrote: »

there is no 1 billion euro saving!! the government are trying to say they'll save a billion each year over the next 3 years but a groupe of us had an economics lecturer from NUIG explain the figure is closer to 1 bellion over the course of the next 3 years and in all likelyhood that 1 billion will be swallowed up one way or another so in reality all we're left with is a massive debt we had nothing to do with getting landed on our children's children's heads

So you needed an economics lecturer to explain that tge government will spend the money they saved in some fashion?

Really?

tritium

goose2005 wrote: »

Moreover, he's been a TD since 1975 -- did he ever speak out on the matter when it could have made a difference?

Honestly, the first government to actually address this issue meaningfully and all they get is abuse

They must wonder why they bother

Lou.m

Did people see Vincent Brown last night?


What did they think of the lady who did her own separate report? I think what she said was amazing!

That basically Irish people used these places (she called them prisons) for their free labour. Slavery effectively.

Women were sent there for being wayward and going out. Not just for being unwed mothers. SHe feels there is still a whitewash and still the church has the influence to cover it's tracks.

Newspaper reports from the time called the women penitents. They were called penitentiaries. People knew they approved i hate the denial.

My grandparents knew and my grandmother experienced life in an orphanage run by religious orders ...she described it as hell on earth. Abuse could be sexual physical or psychological all in one day..they would be denied food ...beaten... worked hours and no one cared. The affects of the abuse on her body and physical health were present even in later years.


YEARS AGO WHEN THIS FIRST CAME OUT THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN PRISON SENTENCES.

To be honest it says a lot that they waited for most of the abusers to be dead to apologize.

Did the church make an official apology.

kunst nugget

tritium wrote: »

So you needed an economics lecturer to explain that tge government will spend the money they saved in some fashion?

Really?

It's not money in the government's pockets to spend. It just means they will have to borrow less money to make the repayments. The government is operating at a massive deficit year on year at the moment.

Lou.m

kunst nugget wrote: »

It's not money in the government's pockets to spend. It just means they will have to borrow less money to make the repayments. The government is operating at a massive deficit year on year at the moment.

It is sad it comes down to money.....my grandmother got compensation....it came through after she was dead.

Lou.m

DarkJager wrote: »

This might be a controversial opinion, but I don't feel comfortable with the idea of taxpayers subsidising a redress fund for this. Yes, there was an element of state involvement but lets not forget that the orders & church that ran these laundries are 99.9% responsible for what happened inside them. I'd happily see the Church bled dry for every last miserable cent they have, but I don't feel that taxpayers and a government that didn't even exist while these places were in operation should be footing the bill for compensation.

The state failed to protect the rights of citizens from false imprisonment and there was state involvement. Police would physically deliver these girls to the Nun's you know. They would recapture escapees. The state stood behind them.
The Irish people used their labour.
The state is partially to blame. Germany had to compensate slave labour.

I would say it is right to suggest the church needs to take more responsibility. And yes the bulk of blame lies with them...yeah they should be bled dry..but it will never happen...never....honestly it is still too powerful in this country. But it needs to be held responsible.

kunst nugget

Lou.m wrote: »

It is sad it comes down to money.....my grandmother got compensation....it came through after she was dead.

You might be picking me up wrong. I wholeheartedly believe that the survivors deserve to given respect and compensation. I was just trying to clarify that we're not really saving a billion euro, it just means we're not having to borrow an extra billion.

Lou.m

Azure_sky wrote: »

How was it our fault? Some tax payers were not even born when it happened. That's kind of the original sin morality which the Catholic Church endorses.

The Irish people used their labor. They delivered their daughters to them. The state social workers took women away and police delivered women to the penitentiaries and recaptured escapees.

News paper ads advertized their services in cleaning and laundry. They were publicly referred too as penitentiaries.

People knew and participated .

wp_rathead

Read the report lads.. The Irish State was responsible for over 25% of the admissions to these institutes- ofcourse we are liable to pay compensation to the women. As a tax payer I have no problem with it.
Of course the Church should be made contribute aswell, that is obvious, but it was not just the Church- it is the countries shame

Lou.m

kunst nugget wrote: »

You might be picking me up wrong. I wholeheartedly believe that the survivors deserve to given respect and compensation. I was just trying to clarify that we're not really saving a billion euro, it just means we're not having to borrow an extra billion.

OH yeah i know

I am not getting at you at all.


It just seems besides the point though ....yes they should be given it but that's not the point. Many need counseling or healthcare.

Also many want to find out about their children.

Lou.m

wprathead wrote: »

Read the report lads.. The Irish State was responsible for over 25% of the admissions to these institutes- ofcourse we are liable to pay compensation to the women. As a tax payer I have no problem with it.
Of course the Church should be made contribute aswell, that is obvious, but it was not just the Church- it is the countries shame

It''s so sad.

Azure_sky

Lou.m wrote: »

The Irish people used their labor. They delivered their daughters to them. The state social workers took women away and police delivered women to the penitentiaries and recaptured escapees.

News paper ads advertized their services in cleaning and laundry. They were publicly referred too as penitentiaries.

People knew and participated .

I didn't know nor did I participate.

wprathead wrote: »

... it is the countries shame

I am not a country. I am an individual. I have sympathy for the victims. I have an incredible amount of anger for those who commited these heinous crimes, and those who knew and turned a blind eye. I am not ashamed of myself as I was not responsible nor aware of what happened.

Fulton Crown

Would say that there will be more people in the Magdalenes than was in the GPO in 1916 now that the smell of compo is in the air.

Auld ones that never seen a visitor in years will now be meeting siblings they never knew they had ...in the hope of a bit of a "pull" from the taxpayer.

I do agree that genuine cases should get redress...less of course a deduction for their board and lodgings over the period of incarceration.

Lou.m

Azure_sky wrote: »

I didn't know nor did I participate.



I am not a country. I am an individual. I have sympathy for the victims. I have an incredible amount of anger for those who commited these heinous crimes, and those who knew and turned a blind eye. I am not ashamed of myself as I was not responsible nor aware of what happened.

Perhaps it is your duty to know where they take people when they take them away. Maybe individuals let women down in that way. A country is made up of individuals.Have you read the report?The state was responsible for 25% of the imprisonments at least according to the records. People have a duty to know what the govt they elect does. And it does not seem as if they went to great trouble to hide it at the time.Irish society as a whole at the time did not object...no individual objected.It was not every white person's fault in south Africa nor every German's fault although you could argue that they suffered worse penalties for speaking out. Those groups benefited from those ill deeds. The Irish state and economy benefited from those ill deeds.


Irish society gave that power to the religious orders when they were never suited to it. And they supported that church financially and morally. If people want the church or individuals involved to take more guilt on then they should protest. Or take action.But they won't though. They may object to the finger being pointed at Irish society for not creating a secular public space where this can be dealt with. But they will not take action to stop the govt taking all the blame and demand the church stand up and face the truth. It is the public's duty to make sure it never happens again.


The people , individual citizens are the sovereign of the state.Anyway you are not being asked to make an official apology...the state is ..your taxes fund the state..that's just the way it is...even if it happened before you were born. That's taxation. I do believe Irish society needs to open its eyes to some things that go on today though and truly embrace secularism. That's nothing to do with you on your own..but you are one Irish person..

The church could not get away with this without tacit consent. And that generation did know i believe...or most did.

I worry about religious orders running schools now though. I think closed organizations running schools is inappropriate if they run 99% of the schools in a country.
We can all as individuals work for change and to make sure it never happens again...because it will if we don't act. There are injustices still not by the church but by the state often. I hope we can learn from this.

Azure_sky

Lou.m wrote: »

Perhaps it is your duty to know where they take people when they take them away. Maybe individuals let women down in that way. A country is made up of individuals.Have you read the report?The state was responsible for 25% of the imprisonments at least according to the records. People have a duty to know what the govt they elect does. And it does not seem as if they went to great trouble to hide it at the time.Irish society as a whole at the time did not object...no individual objected.It was not every white person's fault in south Africa nor every German's fault although you could argue that they suffered worse penalties for speaking out. Those groups benefited from those ill deeds. The Irish state and economy benefited from those ill deeds.


Irish society gave that power to the religious orders when they were never suited to it. And they supported that church financially and morally. If people want the church or individuals involved to take more guilt on then they should protest. Or take action.But they won't though. They may object to the finger being pointed at Irish society for not creating a secular public space where this can be dealt with. But they will not take action to stop the govt taking all the blame and demand the church stand up and face the truth. It is the public's duty to make sure it never happens again.


The people , individual citizens are the sovereign of the state.Anyway you are not being asked to make an official apology...the state is ..your taxes fund the state..that's just the way it is...even if it happened before you were born. That's taxation. I do believe Irish society needs to open its eyes to some things that go on today though and truly embrace secularism. That's nothing to do with you on your own..but you are one Irish person..

The church could not get away with this without tacit consent. And that generation did know i believe...or most did.

I worry about religious orders running schools now though. I think closed organizations running schools is inappropriate if they run 99% of the schools in a country.
We can all as individuals work for change and to make sure it never happens again...because it will if we don't act. There are injustices still not by the church but by the state often. I hope we can learn from this.

One individual cannot be held responsible for the actions of another-especially when they were not aware of the crime or even born when it occured. To say otherwise is not only illogical, it's immoral. That's Catholic morality (original sin) it's not my morality. I already said that I think the victims should be compensated via the church being taxed to death. I'm not just an atheist, I'm an anti theist.
I hate religion. I want all religion out of the state, ideally I'd like if there was no religion but I can't force people to abandon their delusions.

Lou.m

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Would say that there will be more people in the Magdalenes than was in the GPO in 1916 now that the smell of compo is in the air.

Auld ones that never seen a visitor in years will now be meeting siblings they never knew they had ...in the hope of a bit of a "pull" from the taxpayer.

I do agree that genuine cases should get redress...less of course a deduction for their board and lodgings over the period of incarceration.

I hope this is sarcasm or irony.
It is not for me to judge the appropriateness of what people want to joke about or start polemic provocation on. On the other hand If it is an attempt to highlight some of the attitudes that are subconsciously still there then I applaud you.
As a parody of the Irish taxpayer (certain Irish taxpayers)perhaps you have a point. The above is of course a ridiculous statement to make. 'Why yes let's make those women pay for their beatings and false imprisonment.' There are no fees for actual criminals either. Nor do children in care have to 'work it off'. But your comment does seem to parody a certain ridiculous attitude here that the taxpayer is being made a victim. Who in all likely hood will end up paying about three fitty each...or a strange fear that this is a scam.

If these are your true thoughts on it I wonder why people still ask why it is not a wider societal issue.

If it is an attempt to highlight some of the attitudes that are subconsciously still there then I applaud you.

Lou.m

Azure_sky wrote: »

One individual cannot be held responsible for the actions of another-especially when they were not aware of the crime or even born when it occured. To say otherwise is not only illogical, it's immoral. That's Catholic morality (original sin) it's not my morality. I already said that I think the victims should be compensated via the church being taxed to death. I'm not just an atheist, I'm an anti theist.
I hate religion. I want all religion out of the state, ideally I'd like if there was no religion but I can't force people to abandon their delusions.

You could say the same thing about the bank debt. Or any abuse that the state was responsible for. So the state should pay nothing to those who it incarcerated criminally? I mean we pay into a welfare system to individuals that we are not responsible as individuals for either should we stop that too?

I think that generation is guilty and we have to financially pay because states and countries are multi generational. States have to pay for the war financially....or crimes against humanity etc where do you think the money comes from??

If a state body commits a crime....the state body as an institution is guilty for some time.

You did not abuse those women...you have no moral guilt of course but as a citizen of the state that did you have to contribute to their financial compensation.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Fulton Crown wrote: »

I do agree that genuine cases should get redress...less of course a deduction for their board and lodgings over the period of incarceration.

Ugh.

Hitchens

Chairperson of the Residential Institutions Review Committee (RIRC) and the five ordinary members listed as follows were re-appointed with effect from 1st January 2011 by Mary Coughlan. These members were initially appointed following a competitive interview process.

— Mr Justice Frank Murphy retired Supreme Court judge (Chairperson) (Will be paid at the same rate as a Supreme Court Judge subject to abatement to take account of his pension)

— Judge John Buckley (Will be paid at the rate of 688 euros per day)
— Mr Colm Gaynor (Will be paid at the rate of 688 euros per day)
— Ms Ita Mangan (Will be paid at the rate of 688 euros per day)
— Mr Brendan Gogarty (Will be paid at the rate of 688 euros per day)
— Mr John Dalton. (Will be paid at the rate of 688 euros per day)