A career in Information Technology?

Brion

Hi guys,

Mature student here (early 30s) with a degree in business but looking for a change since nothing has really come up in this area for me. I've had a number of people suggesting to me to do something in IT but I always respond with 'like what/there's quite a lot under the IT umbrella/etc'. It's not that easy to go 'yeah, sure, let's go'.

So for a person who needs to brush up on their mathematical studies, what's a good way of approaching this? What can I do beforehand to see if this is really for me/if I can do this? And also, suggestions as to some areas that would be best focused on?

Thanks.

franktheplank

A lot of colleges now are offering one year conversion courses to get into software development. I'm doing one at the moment, it's tough work but we're learning a lot.

Our course (I can't speak for them all), seems to be having a fairly high drop out/failure rate. We're straight in for a couple of modules with 3rd and 4th year computer science students, so you're expected to get your head round fairly complicated stuff pretty quickly (that said most of the lecturers are great).

I'd strongly recommend doing your research beforehand to make sure programming is for you. If not there's plenty of other IT areas you might like sales/support/hardware/networking, I don't know a whole lot about them, I'm sure it's the same thing, do your research first and make sure it's for you before choosing.

stevenmu

You could try out some techy things to see if they appeal to you.

There's lots of beginner free courses online for programming and/or web development, so you could try some of them out and see if you find yourself enjoying it. You could also look at things like the computer forums here on Boards, or other tech support forums around the web and see if the idea of building and repairing PCs or doing troubleshooting and tech support holds any appeal to you.

If none of the techy things appeal to you, there's still lots of non-techy or soft-techy roles in the IT field. There's always a need for business/process analysts, project managers etc. You business degree will be a big help there, but it would also help a lot to have some type of IT knowledge or skillset so you could look for IT or Computing or possibly MIS courses to help make you more IT focused.

donegal11

franktheplank wrote: »

Our course (I can't speak for them all), seems to be having a fairly high drop out/failure rate. We're straight in for a couple of modules with 3rd and 4th year computer science students, so you're expected to get your head round fairly complicated stuff pretty quickly (that said most of the lecturers are great).

How many dropped out in your course?

tony81

I did a conversion course. The majority were not fit for it and had no aptitude for computers. It was a disgrace the tricks the lecturers came up with to ensure everyone passed.

Trojan

I went through IT system - where we got qualifications after 2nd, 3rd and 4th year; Nat. Cert, Diploma, Degree.

Dropout was 50% every year after 1st, 2nd and 3rd years. I think that's around par for Software Development and related courses.

donegal11

tony81 wrote: »

I did a conversion course. The majority were not fit for it and had no aptitude for computers. It was a disgrace the tricks the lecturers came up with to ensure everyone passed.

And when you go out looking for a job your course will be represented by them making it harder to find a job. Also in my experience the computing modules are half continuous assessment which covers up the big gaps in knowledge when it comes to exams, that if thelectures don't tell you exactly whats coming up on them.

Did many drop out in your course tony or did they just struggle along?

tony81

People just struggled along... Lecturers did as much as possible for them: slowed the pace of the course, gave exam "hints", ignored plagiarism where people clearly got help with CAs, and hand-picked people for group projects so each team had one strong person who carried the group.

conor.hogan.2

tony81 wrote: »

People just struggled along... Lecturers did as much as possible for them: slowed the pace of the course, gave exam "hints", ignored plagiarism where people clearly got help with CAs, and hand-picked people for group projects so each team had one strong person who carried the group.

I have seen this and worse in undergrads too tbh, it is fairly common in every course and CS is known for high dropout rates in 1st and subsequent years.

lemon_remon

Bear in mind, with any "IT" related degree, it won't necessarily get you a job. It isn't like a business degree where it is difficult to demonstrate knowledge in an interview situation. With an "IT" related degree, you may get in the door for an interview with a degree but if you can't demonstrate the knowledge you claim you simply won't get offered a position. It is also possible to demonstrate knowledge without a degree, which is quite difference to a business (or whatever) degree, with project samples and code. In other words, don't fret too much over which course to do, it isn't as important as it may seem, they definitely help but it isn't about what piece of paper you have, it's about what you can do.

tony81

lemon_remon wrote: »

In other words, don't fret too much over which course to do, it isn't as important as it may seem

My point was be careful what course you do.. because so many terrible grads are coming out with second class honours and even first-class honours. There are rarely any minimum entry standards or aptitude tests for admission to these courses, and couple that with the fact that colleges try to pass as many people as possible, it really undermines the qualification.

lemon_remon

tony81 wrote: »

My point was be careful what course you do.. because so many terrible grads are coming out with second class honours and even first-class honours. There are rarely any minimum entry standards or aptitude tests for admission to these courses, and couple that with the fact that colleges try to pass as many people as possible, it really undermines the qualification.

What I was trying to get across is the grade doesn't matter, neither does the college you went to. It's about demonstrable skill.

Brion

Thanks for all the replies guys, only getting to check this thread now. Must say that building/repairing PCs does not appeal to me at all. Just couldn't see myself doing that.

There's lots of beginner free courses online for programming and/or web development

Appreciate it if you could point me towards some of the better ones! Maybe something like a 10 week course to see if I'm cut out for this?

What areas/languages would you recommend focusing on?


Will look through the other replies later!

ChRoMe

Brion wrote: »

What areas/languages would you recommend focusing on?

tony81

Give this a go: http://www.codecademy.com/tracks/python

Lyaiera

I also have a business degree, which is turning out to be useless. Although in fairness the head of the department called me into his office one day and said if I don't plan on moving to London or New York I'll have a very hard time of it.

I've always been interested in computers, just being slightly nerdy and I've been trying to learn programming for a while. I've bought a few books and followed tutorials online and they've all been useless. I get to the end of them and know how to do what it said in the book, but don't have a clue with how I could use it elsewhere.

That being said, I've started the EdX (Harvard, MIT, etc.) online course now. I tried it last year but was too busy with the final months of a contract position. I've started again a few weeks ago and my experience of it is excellent. Where the books and things layout steps you follow, and you change a few variables to give yourself a pat on the back, the EdX one actually makes you think. They explain the theory and go into the majority of what's needed but they don't lay out absolutely everything. You do have to do work to get past the different elements. I've done three weeks so far, which involves lots of small exercises and two big sets of programming (relatively) which have actually made me think.

What's also great is that they give you the tools needed to check your own work. They have an automated grader and provide test cases that you can use to see if you're correct.

I've been accepted on a FAS Java Associate course, and to be honest I'm genuinely worried that despite it being a full day course running for half a year it won't be near as good as what EdX provides.

Brion

Thanks Lyaiera. I see I've missed 3 weeks of this course (https://www.edx.org/courses/MITx/6.00x/2013_Spring/about)...would it be too late to begin?

And for someone with zero programming knowledge, do you think it's still a good one to try?

Lyaiera

Brion wrote: »

Thanks Lyaiera. I see I've missed 3 weeks of this course (https://www.edx.org/courses/MITx/6.00x/2013_Spring/about)...would it be too late to begin?

And for someone with zero programming knowledge, do you think it's still a good one to try?

If you're willing to put in two weeks of a decent amount of work, you should still be able to get a high mark. The lowest of your week's problem sets are excluded from the final result.

If you're not interested in the final marks, you can follow along the videos. I'm not too sure if the automatic grader will continue to work though, and a lot of the learning is from working out how to do the challenges set.

There are social media groups and IRC channels for discussion though, so you can find help quite easily. They also have a pretty decent built in forum system.

I'd say give it a go for the next two weeks and see if you like it. If you do like it you'll catch up quickly and I find it very beneficial. It will take a bit of determination though. I missed out on last week's stuff because I had things come up and I bought about 24 hours into it this week to get up to date as of 6am this morning.

Edit: The first week has about two or three hours of work but you can still do that stuff no problem. The second week has about an hour and a half of videos and maybe two hours of "small" questions, you'll do them even faster if you have a bit of experience. And if you get the idea quickly you can easily have the second week's problem set done in two or three hours. At that point you'd have a full week to catch up on the problem set for week three, and that's very easily managed.

Second edit: I just saw you said you have no programming experience. The pro to that is you haven't wasted your time with rubbish. I would say you'd have to use the course's automatic, "discard your lowest week" thing for the second week (the first week sort of doesn't count.) But all in all it's definitely worth trying. It really is the best course I have ever found online.

Tim Robbins

I did Engineering 16 years ago and I have worked in software development since. One thing I'd say about college is people actually teach you stuff. In the real world, you learn 95% of things yourself. So for example, your company might decide to change database or web technology and you have to just pick it up.

Point being is that in this industry there is a lot of "constant learning". No other industry is like it. If you were a physio for example, 95% of what you need to know you learn at college. Whereas IT 5% comes from college, the 95% you self learn.

And if you can't self learn you won't like it or you won't be able to hack it.
The only options are to go into management or to get another career.

The constant learning is a major major contributor to burnout. The last four years, I have spent half my annual leave trying to learn new things. Just to keep up to date. You have to do this, if you want to be at senior level unless the company you are working in is using the latest technologies which is rarely the case.

Now, if you are a mega genius you won't have to spend as long as others to keep up to date and you are definitely suited to IT but in my experience only 2% - 5% are at the level. I have seen some guys who can take something complex and read it about it once and get it straight away and retain it for years. Most people need to go thru it a few times and then get it and then to re-read it to brush up on it.

Those that can't self learn - eventually depart IT.

It's a tough career a lot is expected of you. Whereas if you were in finance or accounting you would not have the same amount of constant learning and possibly make more money.

stevenmu

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Whereas IT 5% comes from college, the 95% you self learn.

That's very true, but the big benefit of what you learn in college is that it should give you a good grounding in a lot of the theory which can help you learn the practical stuff afterwards.

For e.g. you might learn about relational databases, how normalisation works, how to use keys, indexes, what the different locks are for etc. Then when you go to learn SQL Server or Oracle, you're at least familiar with a lot of the principles, you know more or less what the mechanisms are for and you just need to learn about the specific implementations of them.

When I was doing a degree in Comp Sci, I spent a lot of the time moaning about how it was too focused on theory and not enough on the practical, but in the years since that theory has been a big help in learning all the practical stuff that I have needed.

stevenmu

Brion wrote: »

What areas/languages would you recommend focusing on?

Like Michael Jackson suggests above, that's a question that can be loaded with controversy

What I would suggest is that you first decide if you want to either A) Try software development in general, or Try a particular type of software development (i.e. Windows applications, Web development, phone applications etc).

In general I'd suggest A) to people. It will give you the best grounding in the basics, and you can focus on building on them rather than having to worry about the specific nuances of say web development or phone development. It will also mean you can then easily specialise in different branches down the line, or jump between them easily. If you're going to go this route I'd recommend learning either C# or Java. They're both widely used, modern languages that support all the features you could want. They're both flexible, they can be used for windows apps, web sites, web services, phone apps etc. And both have a load of tutorials available. I personally prefer C# because it allows for development with the Microsoft suite of products, and there's always plenty of work in that. But Java is hard to argue against, and there's always plenty of work there too. You really can't go wrong with either of them.

The benefit of going the route is that it may be more interesting. Some people will pick a project, say a website or a phone app, and learn through building that. That can be a great way to keep yourself motivated, but it can be harder, because you have to deal with extra stuff. For e.g. if you wanted to build a website you would typically also have to learn some amount of HTML, Javascript, CSS and some type of database, all on top of whatever server side programming language you choose. Like with anything else, trying to learn too much at once, can often mean you take shortcuts and miss important bits of understanding that will hinder you down the line. But with that said, having a particular project or goal to work towards is powerful motivation, and if you break it down right and go about it step by step it can be a good way to learn too. If you do go this route, the technology/languages etc to learn will very much depend on what it is you are trying to achieve.

Tim Robbins

stevenmu wrote: »

That's very true, but the big benefit of what you learn in college is that it should give you a good grounding in a lot of the theory which can help you learn the practical stuff afterwards.

For e.g. you might learn about relational databases, how normalisation works, how to use keys, indexes, what the different locks are for etc. Then when you go to learn SQL Server or Oracle, you're at least familiar with a lot of the principles, you know more or less what the mechanisms are for and you just need to learn about the specific implementations of them.

When I was doing a degree in Comp Sci, I spent a lot of the time moaning about how it was too focused on theory and not enough on the practical, but in the years since that theory has been a big help in learning all the practical stuff that I have needed.

All very true. Coming from an engineering background there was probably more to learn as you didn't learn any of those basics. I actually only recently learnt how sometimes languages can optimise tail based recursion so that it is not much slower than iteration.

I have to say there are some people in this industry who are not always spending their time keeping up to date but they are usually good at politics or something else. The industry also has its fair share of bull sh*tters as well. We have all seen endless amounts of crap code. And there's also people who just stay at the one company for 10+ years - they know how that company works and their products very well so there isn't as much pressure on them to learn the latest specs. But if they wanted to change job there would be.

Anyway, I suppose if someone asks me what this industry is like I am assuming they don't fancy being a bull sh*tter or a political animal and want something they might enjoy.

I.T. is a tough tough career. The government have this notion that if you create a load of this conversion courses you have created loads of good careers - you haven't.

Lyaiera

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I.T. is a tough tough career. The government have this notion that if you create a load of this conversion courses you have created loads of good careers - you haven't.

That's my issue. I've been accepted to a Java Associate course and have applied to a broader IT course (CIT's Cloud Computing one.) I just don't think I can learn enough in a year to be competitive with guys who have done a four year CS course. Even if I excel in the course I'd be shocked if a guy with average marks in a CS degree didn't know far more than me. And even CS guys are going unemployed at the moment.

tony81

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Whereas if you were in finance or accounting you would not have the same amount of constant learning and possibly make more money.

Not necessarily. In accounting it is easy to get pigeon-holed, and if the job gets petty or stressful, or due to redundancy, and you leave it can be difficult to return to employment. Newly qualified, younger accountants are willing to work for less.

Accountants are expected to do 40 hours of cpd a year. Accounting, audit, tax and compliance regulations change, and new systems can be introduced.

ChRoMe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I.T. is a tough tough career.

I dont think thats true at all. There are far more difficult ways to make a good living. I sometimes feel guilty that I get paid so much to do so little.

tony81

Lyaiera wrote: »

That's my issue. I've been accepted to a Java Associate course and have applied to a broader IT course (CIT's Cloud Computing one.) I just don't think I can learn enough in a year to be competitive with guys who have done a four year CS course. Even if I excel in the course I'd be shocked if a guy with average marks in a CS degree didn't know far more than me. And even CS guys are going unemployed at the moment.

Well consider a level 7 CS degree. It contains Maths, marketing, professional studies, video editing, and a lot of other undergraduate padding... In fact about 36 different modules which usually don't follow on from each other though some do. A well-run one year post-grad diploma could focus on a few good modules. I did such a course though the standard of most participants and about 1/2 of the lecturers were beyond crap. However the exams were comparable in both courses. Put it this way, I'd be sickened if I did the 3-year degree over the 1 year h.dip.

As for 4 year courses... Haven't looked into the 4th year, but i'd imagine you'd be right... Hard to compete directly eg java skills vs java skills. But many (most?) Undergrads don't have previous work experience so don't try to compete directly with them. Previous domain experience and professionalism through corporate work experience can get you an entry-level i.t role.

Tim Robbins

Lyaiera wrote: »

That's my issue. I've been accepted to a Java Associate course and have applied to a broader IT course (CIT's Cloud Computing one.) I just don't think I can learn enough in a year to be competitive with guys who have done a four year CS course. Even if I excel in the course I'd be shocked if a guy with average marks in a CS degree didn't know far more than me. And even CS guys are going unemployed at the moment.

Some of the best people I have worked with just did one year conversion courses. The thing with IT is normal rules just don't apply.

The number one thing I'd say about IT is that it is a tough tough career. One of the best people I have ever worked with super genius couldn't hack it and burnt out and went for a career change. Now immediately you'd think why did he burn out.

Well Software entropy happens in every project - complexity goes way up usually because of crap code, bad designs and poor architecture. But you still have deadlines. This means you spend more and more time late at night debugging crap code to try and get something working and make your deadlines.

This happens on every project and it frustrates the sh*t out of people. It is also something that no university in the world prepares you for.

I have been in this industry 16 years and made it thru two down turns. 2001 - 2004 and 2009. I expect another big downturn around 2016. Why?

The 2009 downturn was not that bad as a lot of people stayed away from IT after the 2001 - 2004 .dot com bubble crashed. This meant there were not as many victims in 2009. However, now the government have decided to throw a load of people in IT again.

So expect a bigger fallout in 2016.

Tim Robbins

ChRoMe wrote: »

I dont think thats true at all. There are far more difficult ways to make a good living. I sometimes feel guilty that I get paid so much to do so little.

I don't think I have met anyone in this industry who thinks that so fair play to you.

Graham

Like many careers, IT isn't a tough career if it's one you've chosen out of a genuine interest for the subject. If people are doing it because 'it's a good career' then they will probably find it harder.

Unfortunately, many now fall into the latter group. Where people used to be told to get a job in the civil service, or work for a bank, they're now being directed towards IT.

Brion

Quite a bit to take in here guys but appreciating the discussion

Lyaiera - I didn't manage to get Problem Set 2 in on time which is a shame but I rushed through the videos + exercises without fully understanding everything that was going on. Week 1 was generally okay but I'm a bit rusty on my math so some things take a few times to read over. Week 2 I found to be a bit more difficult but hopefully this was more down to me worrying about getting Pset2 done in time.

Brion

Graham wrote: »

Like many careers, IT isn't a tough career if it's one you've chosen out of a genuine interest for the subject. If people are doing it because 'it's a good career' then they will probably find it harder.

Unfortunately, many now fall into the latter group. Where people used to be told to get a job in the civil service, or work for a bank, they're now being directed towards IT.

If it's any use to you I did contemplate an IT course in DCU many years back

syklops

Must say that building/repairing PCs does not appeal to me at all

Funnily enough building PCs is quite a different discipline to repairing them.

Brion

More alluding to my lack of dexterity when it comes to things like that!

Tim Robbins

Graham wrote: »

Like many careers, IT isn't a tough career if it's one you've chosen out of a genuine interest for the subject. If people are doing it because 'it's a good career' then they will probably find it harder.

Unfortunately, many now fall into the latter group. Where people used to be told to get a job in the civil service, or work for a bank, they're now being directed towards IT.

Yes and No.

Have you been thru many recessions? Technology changes? How many projects have your worked on that have just been out sourced to India?

When I started in this industry I thought certain things would never happen and they did. You don't have to work in IT if you like it. One of the best people I have ever worked with couldn't hack the stress of it and burnt out and went back to become a physio. He still programs as a hobbie and sets up his own networks etc.
He was super passionate and absolutely loved IT has been programming since he was 7 / 8 but just couldn't hack the stress of working in it - crap code, high pressure deadlines, little job security etc.

Other people I know who are not that good can hack the stress of it no problem. They don't care if they are looking at crap code.

IT's a very hard one to advice on.

youcancallmeal

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Some of the best people I have worked with just did one year conversion courses. The thing with IT is normal rules just don't apply.

The number one thing I'd say about IT is that it is a tough tough career. One of the best people I have ever worked with super genius couldn't hack it and burnt out and went for a career change. Now immediately you'd think why did he burn out.

Well Software entropy happens in every project - complexity goes way up usually because of crap code, bad designs and poor architecture. But you still have deadlines. This means you spend more and more time late at night debugging crap code to try and get something working and make your deadlines.

This happens on every project and it frustrates the sh*t out of people. It is also something that no university in the world prepares you for.

I have been in this industry 16 years and made it thru two down turns. 2001 - 2004 and 2009. I expect another big downturn around 2016. Why?

The 2009 downturn was not that bad as a lot of people stayed away from IT after the 2001 - 2004 .dot com bubble crashed. This meant there were not as many victims in 2009. However, now the government have decided to throw a load of people in IT again.

So expect a bigger fallout in 2016.

I think your right when you say a fallout is coming but I believe only certain areas in IT will be affected. There is going to be a glut of people like project managers, scrum masters, IT business analysts etc in the years to come. They are the easiest roles to transition into from other careers, usually only a general business degree and a vague technical understanding is enough. Getting into and becoming a good software developer is immensely more difficult. I see it myself right now in my company where anyone who isn't a developer is just sitting there with blank expressions during planning meetings, everything has to be dumbed right down so the planners can "make the decisions".

Tim Robbins

youcancallmeal wrote: »

I think your right when you say a fallout is coming but I believe only certain areas in IT will be affected. There is going to be a glut of people like project managers, scrum masters, IT business analysts etc in the years to come.

PM / Scrum masters - tonnes of them

They are the easiest roles to transition into from other careers, usually only a general business degree and a vague technical understanding is enough.
Getting into and becoming a good software developer is immensely more difficult.

+1.

I see it myself right now in my company where anyone who isn't a developer is just sitting there with blank expressions during planning meetings, everything has to be dumbed right down so the planners can "make the decisions".

Know that one.

I worked in a large multi national and there was a huge clear out of management.
Some of them found it hard to get jobs, others got much better jobs.

At the end of the day IT is the raw edge of capitalism. There are no protections.
You compete with India and the bloke 15 years younger than you.

And here's the key point. It really doesn't matter if you had 25 years experience. The stuff you did a long time ago is way out of date.

After 5 years - everyone is even.

So, once you hit about 28 (I am 37 now) there is very little career progression.
If a 28 year old is very good, he is just as good as a 47 year old is very good.

The challenge is once you hit that five years is to make sure you don't fall behind the lads who are good and hit their five years.

Otherwise you are goosed and the 28 year old will get a senior role in another company before you.

The older people get the harder they find it to find time to keep skills up to date. This is when the burnout kicks in.

I find is if you put a lot of effort into keeping skills up to date you will learn things much quicker. For example if you two java programmers and one also was very good javascript and python that one would pick Scala way quicker. If you are always learning nothing is a big step instead you have tonnes of small steps.

Whereas if you coast along - then you will eventually get a massive step.

From 2001 - 2006 it was really about how good at Java you were. Failing that how could at .net you were. Now, at senior level I would expect someone to have mastered a few things. Java, JavaScript, Groovey....

And I would expect a really sh*t hot person to have mastered at least 5.

Then when confronted with problems they can switch and pick different tools and overall get things done much quicker.

starlit

IT is very broad really but similar but different to computer science but cover similar subjects but the detail of study and what you learn might vary.

Loads of conversion courses available if you haven't an IT background already of some sort. Then maybe complete some certs or do an online course to brush up on things you might learn in college like programming you kind of need to keep tabs of what you are learning as the learning never really stops when it comes to IT.

In terms of maths I would say going down the Java, cloud or Business Analysis/systems analysis route might be an option for you. If you are good with numbers maybe databases might be something to get into.

I agree with a lot of what posters have already said Op but all depends what career path you want to follow. For me I did a business and IT something onto BIS as a degree and did a hdip in computing. I feel what I did was so broad and not specific in anything that has made it harder for me to decide on a career path in IT which is what I want to follow or have a bit of business in it too.

Just hard to strike a balance. I have followed many different types of potential careers but nothing has fallen through for me career wise so still at crossroads what career to go with. I love anything to do with IT. I am even brushing up on my coding skills at the moment and doing a bit of freelance in social media/advertising ads for web/social media. I've probably covered a fast range of subjects but only really hit the surface.

There is wide variety of programming languages you might be good at some and not others and depends how easily you pick them up and understand them. Some people have learnt to programme at a young age like doing projects outside of college or even done it before starting college as part of their free time. Some just have a natural flare for it others takes time to get to grips with it.

There are web programming languages which I do quiet well in - php, ruby , javascript, html and css. Software development type ones like VB is ok but java is very difficult. Then you've databases/cloud type ones - SQL. You've python and perl. In terms of Networking its just codes/commands really. You've the operating systems ones then mainly codes/commands like for unix/linux. Windows be kind of a step by step kind of commands while linux/unix its one line or few words. You've scripting commands too which be similar to operating system and software development commands like you've scripting in photoshop/flash for multimedia/interactive media type things and you've actionscript that apply to flash.

You've learnt one you learnt them all, principles are the same just the codes are presented differently. Though some people are better at certain types of code over others and that is grand some just are brilliant at all of them and others not really. Sometimes like you just have a knack for it or not. Requires a lot of hard work if you find coding difficult. Takes time to get it right and a lot of patience! I think if you can understand and debug and know where you are making mistakes then it helps to learn it. I find that if you can type code without the books/notes you be doing very well but recalling from memory can be good and bad. Grand for a computer exam but not great when writing it on paper.

Its a good idea to keep on top of what you learn in college as new technology, coding methods and other gadgets will change over time and keep updating itself so its wise to keep updating your skills too!

You've technical support then but as you say you have little interest in repairing pc's and so on so best not to go down that path. Is there any other area you be interested in as IT is so varied you could pursue most areas from scratch!?

Career progression can vary all depends on what work experience you gain in the future and what job you be in.

Research thoroughly before investing in an IT course as modules and what's covered can vary. Try not to go for something too broad but not too specific either just in between.

I was just lucky I had some stuff covered in my degree that I learnt again in my hdip but I learnt new subjects as well which helped compliment and learn something new in the process but only thing is that added to it was that I learnt more programming languages in the hdip than in my degree while my degree focused more on business, business management, IS, multimedia and business admin type subjects rather than IT though it did cover some aspects of IT but not in enough detail as I would have liked had I gone for a more mainstream BIS course as they probably would have had a more even balance between IT and business than the course I did which tended to focus on business more than IT yet having IT subjects but not enough and not enough detail.

Just giving you my take on it OP! As I always say go with your gut feeling not just what your head is telling you. If in any doubt about a course don't do it but if you very confident about doing a particular course go for it! Its a risk but its better to try than not try at all and you be wondering what if!
Best of luck with your decision!

syklops

As we have already touched on, IT is so vast that its not just at looking at crap code, but looking at very weirdly configured networks, very strange security policies, and just ridiculous ways of doing things. I can fully understand how someone who took to IT from an early age burnt out by having to cope with systems where planning or logic weren't applied.

An example from my own life, I recently came across a network that was using public IP addresses as LAN IPs. They were sat behind a router, but they were publicly routable over the internet. When i queried it, I got a shrug and a "Thats just the way it is". No wonder we have run out of IP addresses. Theres about 200 here when only 1 is needed.

I am sure everyone here could relate a story where completely the wrong solution was applied to a problem. I know some people who have little or no interest in IT, who come in, do their job and leave at 5 o'clock. They don't get stressed because they don't care. In many ways I envy them. I bet they sleep better than I do too. I think anyone who says IT is an easy career doesn't care about it too much. How can you be so invested in something and at the same time find it so easy? The world of business has moved on as well and I am not sure if all the innovation have been for the benefit of the worker. Not very long ago when you hit a certain level you would have had an assistant, or even a secretary to do all the menial jobs related to your work, now you are given a laptop and a phone. I have on occasion spent a day on stupid paper work when I could easily have been doing productive even valuable things. I think if I was starting over, I would look more closely at other possible careers.

ChRoMe

syklops wrote: »

How can you be so invested in something and at the same time find it so easy?

Thats precisely why, I ****ing love this stuff, I'd do it for free. Its just a bonus there are people who pay me a lot of money to do it....

There are so many people here moaning about how tough IT is. If you really feel this way, why on earth are you in the industry?

Tim Robbins

syklops wrote: »

I would look more closely at other possible careers.

So would I. I would learn a language like python and use for hobbie stuff and then try to get into something more mathematical for a career and leave the IT stuff as a hobbie.

Great story about the public ip's btw.

I am currently working on a project where half the code has no unit tests and to develop this way is fine. Eventually software entropy will kick in and this project will become a nightmare.

The last place I worked in one or two of the very senior technical people there never sorted out threading problems properly and kept patching a flawed design. It was an utter nightmare. No PM realised how complicated it had got and when you were asked to do some work in that area it was impossible to predict how long it would take.

I have never ever ever worked on a project that didn't turn into a nightmare.
There are many reasons for this - people in "architect" roles who weren't good enough, mgrs who weren't technical enough, people who had minimum coding skills, unrealistic deadlines - you name it I have seen it all expect one thing a project that doesn't become a nightmare.

There are too many things required in a complex software project to make it run smoothly and they never all happen.

ChRoMe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

There are too many things required in a complex software project to make it run smoothly and they never all happen.

Which is exactly why those of us in this game a reasonable amount of time. Smile at the PM when she is close to pulling her hair out about all the problems. "Grand, situation normal in software development then... right whats the next JIRA ticket, but first coffee and fag".

Folks its no different in any other industry tbh.

stevenmu

Sometimes I think IT (software consulting/development in my particular case) is extremely tough and frustrating. You have to deal with lots of deadlines, ever shifting goals and requirements, trying to balance resources between different projects, balance between developing new stuff and getting caught hunting bugs in old stuff, dealing with nonsensical code (admittedly some of it self written ), angry customers who have figured out that complaining a lot gets them free stuff, stupid people insisting on stupid stuff, meetings about meetings to form a committee to plan the letterhead to be used for meeting invites and so on and so on.

Then other times I look out the window at the cold and wind and rain and can't believe how lucky I am to be paid to sit on my nice comfy seat in my nice warm and dry office. Sometimes I get to research new technologies and be right on the bleeding edge. Sometimes I get confronted with some technology problem that can only be solved with a stroke of genius so beautiful and elegant it brings a tear to my eye. Sometimes I get brought on to a project that's in trouble and through some unique skill I possess I get to save it from failing and get to be the hero (for a few hours at least ). Sometimes a customer will write a thank you email to your boss about how great a job you did, how well a system works, and how much time and money you saved them.

And then another time I will be stuck in a meeting room, looking out at the builders on a roof across the road, it might be cold and wet but at least the air is fresh. They might be tired at the end of the day from carry bits and pieces and using tools and machinery, but I bet there's a certain satisfaction to knowing they built something new that day, something more constructive than a projects risk list. And I bet those sandwiches taste pretty good when you're sitting on the edge of a building looking out at the mountains.

And so the cycle continues.

ChRoMe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

And here's the key point. It really doesn't matter if you had 25 years experience. The stuff you did a long time ago is way out of date.

Thats such a naive and blinkered view to be honest. While it might be the case regarding the technical details of the work, thats only a part of the overall job. 25 years experience lets you look at a situation,understand and anticipate the problems far better than some young fella.

Tim Robbins

ChRoMe wrote: »

Thats such a naive and blinkered view to be honest. While it might be the case regarding the technical details of the work, thats only a part of the overall job. 25 years experience lets you look at a situation,understand and anticipate the problems far better than some young fella.

Yes and No. I commend your ability to deal with stress sincerely however it is unusual that people have that attitude.

If you look at the top people James Gosling, Rich Hickey etc and listen to them talk they get their drive by absolutely hating something so much that are compelled to innovate a completely new approach.

There is a very common pattern in software of complexity driving people mad, a new approach to minimize complexity and then more complexity.

Examples:
* Memory leaks driving C++ programmers demented - enter Java.
* Mutable state, code bloat driving Java heads mad - Enter Ruby, Scala, Groovey
* Distributed Garbage collection and distributed state, lack of vendor portabillity in Corba enter web services
* Clunky specs in WS and distributed state enter REST
* Millions of different ways of doing diagrams enter UML
* JavaScript is too complicated - GWT
* O/R mapping - hibernate JPA

If these problems didn't drive people mad, the innovations would never have happened. There are only two technologies I can think that haven't driven people completely mad.

1. Relational databases (and that's debatable suffice to say they have been around 40+ years)
2. HTTP

So the industry is unique in that it has many things that drive people mad.
How you react to it is I suppose personal.

ChRoMe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

So the industry is unique in that it has many things that drive people mad.
How you react to it is I suppose personal.

Thats the whole point though, its the same as any other industry. These are all universal truths, regardless of domain.

Edited to add: It may just appear to be a different situation considering our industry is in its infancy in comparison to other engineering disciplines.

Tim Robbins

ChRoMe wrote: »

Thats the whole point though, its the same as any other industry. These are all universal truths, regardless of domain.

Edited to add: It may just appear to be a different situation considering our industry is in its infancy in comparison to other engineering disciplines.

I don't think so. In Civil Engineering things move much slower. Even if you are a GP the amount you have to learn every year is way less.

Nothing moves as fast as IT.

It can place unreasonable head demands on people. I don't think there is anything that compare to be thrown onto a new project, looking at old code with no documenation, no unit tests, no higher level abstractions, obvious signs that person who coded it was not an expert level and be told to just add something and given a deadline.

You can be the worlds best programmer but you are staring at some thread, wondering why the hell it was done a certain way. Johnny the developer who did has left the company and no-one else knows. There's only one or two people who have a good knowledge of the code base and they are too busy to sit down and give you a coherent answer.

So you look at it painfully and expected to do your job because hey you're a java expert who knows design patterns inside out and did a great interview.

That is a regular occurence in the s/w industry and I cannot for the life of me think of something comparable in any other industry.

stevenmu

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't think so. In Civil Engineering things move much slower. Even if you are a GP the amount you have to learn every year is way less.

Nothing moves as fast as IT.

It can place unreasonable head demands on people.

It can depend very much on role as well. If you go into a bank you'll find people who have been working on Cobol, AS/400s and DB2 for the last 20 years or so . That's an extreme case, but there's lots of people who would be coders working in cubicle farms who would be churning out code in the same language with the same frameworks/toolchains year after year, often working on the developing the same product or small group of products.

In my role, and I guess it's similar in yours as well, I'd constantly be working on new projects often with new technologies (often beta or pre-release) so there's a fairly steep learning curve. It's personally something I love, it is tough and doesn't suit everybody, but like with ChRoMe it's something I'd do in my spare time for free so it makes an ideal career for me.

It's actually something I'd posted about in the "Frustrated dev job" recently: link

Tim Robbins

stevenmu wrote: »

In my role, and I guess it's similar in yours as well, I'd constantly be working on new projects often with new technologies (often beta or pre-release) so there's a fairly steep learning curve. It's personally something I love, it is tough and doesn't suit everybody, but like with ChRoMe it's something I'd do in my spare time for free so it makes an ideal career for me.

New projects without legacy code - no unfortunately I don't see much green field would love to thou :-)

I research a lot of technologies in my own time and been published on some fairly reputable sites but it's difficult getting that time when you have kids. The last few months I have been doing it a lot from 10.00 pm on Friday evening to 2.00 am in the morning. Because it is the only time I get.

You can love something a lot but there are practicalities as well.

Sparks

tony81 wrote: »

Accountants are expected to do 40 hours of cpd a year. Accounting, audit, tax and compliance regulations change, and new systems can be introduced.

In IT, realistically, you'd be looking at doing that many days of CPD to stay at the top of the game, if not more.

But it gets worse, because most companies don't regard CPD as being a valid use of your time - so you're expected to do this in your free time or worse:

Worse yet, in several of the places I worked in in the last few years, asking for CPD support would have been a black mark against you; it would have been seen as an admission of incompetence and nothing more. The attitude was, effectively, that you should have learnt everything in college, and now it was time to stop with the time-wasting of learning and get on with billable hours. CPD was something you did at home and didn’t mention at work. Supporting CPD in those places was seen as the company spending money to improve the employees’ CVs so they could flee elsewhere.

tylercheribini

Brion wrote: »

Hi guys,

Mature student here (early 30s) with a degree in business but looking for a change since nothing has really come up in this area for me. I've had a number of people suggesting to me to do something in IT but I always respond with 'like what/there's quite a lot under the IT umbrella/etc'. It's not that easy to go 'yeah, sure, let's go'.

So for a person who needs to brush up on their mathematical studies, what's a good way of approaching this? What can I do beforehand to see if this is really for me/if I can do this? And also, suggestions as to some areas that would be best focused on?

Thanks.

I made the huge error of entering a computing course in D.I.T 4 years ago. I absolutely hated every aspect of the experience and left after two years, achieving a worthless Level 6 Higher cert by the skin of my teeth. As stated in previous posts on this thread, do not enter this field purely for economic/employment reasons like I did. You will not last, trust me. Programming in particular is an acquired taste to put it mildly. Like alot of skills it is not something you can become proficient at without some passion or interest in it.

ChRoMe

Sparks wrote: »

In IT, realistically, you'd be looking at doing that many days of CPD to stay at the top of the game, if not more.

But it gets worse, because most companies don't regard CPD as being a valid use of your time - so you're expected to do this in your free time or worse:

Thats really strange, any company I've been in has had an active interest in employee training (its something I ask in every interview). The standard deal anywhere has been that if you leave within 6 months of your training you are liable for the cost to the company of the training. Works great for all parties concerned.