Incompetent FAS

slpower01 · 18-02-2013 3:51pm #1

anybody have the same problems with this organisation as me. I have completed a 4 year carpentry apprenticeship and FAS will not provide final papers. Now they are trying to get me to send back my booklet so they can remove my phase 3 & 5 - they say I have not the correct number of years experience. Due to lack of work they accelerated the courses and now are back tracking. My view is this is to create year 1/2 apprentices so that major development companies can get cheap labour (the companies that we are bailing out). One of my problems was I had approx. 15months experience with a cowboy builder who did not pay my stamps so there is no record of my work experience. Social welfare told me I had to chase down this company and get them to acknowledge this is writing - why would this company do this as it is admitting a crime. Company was [NAME REMOVED BY MODERATOR ]- owned by [NAME REMOVED BY MODERATOR ] who I believe now works for [NAME REMOVED BY MODERATOR ].

Latest advise??? from FAS (advisor -[NAME REMOVED BY MODERATOR]) was to try another career path and even recommended doing one of their wood working courses - which I would be capable of teaching with my level of skill. In these days how do these incompetent people hold this positions when there are so many skilled and intelligent people out there looking for work.

Has anyone had similar issues with FAS, if so how did you solve it?

MOD NOTE: Asking for advice about the problem is fine, but tlease don't name people here - it can cause legal hassles for boards.ie.

Iwillinmyhole · 17-04-2013 6:53pm

I trained as a carpenter with my dad and was registered with fas but my dad thought I'd learn nothing except how to drink and have a great social life while on a block release with fas. I spent 4 years as an apprentice from age 17 and I was working with him from age 12 to 21. Only worked summer holidays while very young. Anyway, I never did any exams and therefore neve got official papers. I have trained several apprentices through fas over the years and they all have a recognised qualification. I have employed "qualified" carpenters who knew less than I knew about carpentry aged 15 but I still cannot travel abroad without recognised qualifications. Fas as an agency have no ability to train or help anybody to get a job.

Jim2007 · 18-04-2013 7:29pm

Iwillinmyhole wrote: »

Fas as an agency have no ability to train or help anybody to get a job.

So you did not attend the block releases, you did not do the exams and now it's FAS that is to blame - me thinks the blame lies a lot closer to home!

MagicMarker · 18-04-2013 7:31pm

Iwillinmyhole wrote: »

I trained as a carpenter with my dad and was registered with fas but my dad thought I'd learn nothing except how to drink and have a great social life while on a block release with fas. I spent 4 years as an apprentice from age 17 and I was working with him from age 12 to 21. Only worked summer holidays while very young. Anyway, I never did any exams and therefore neve got official papers. I have trained several apprentices through fas over the years and they all have a recognised qualification. I have employed "qualified" carpenters who knew less than I knew about carpentry aged 15 but I still cannot travel abroad without recognised qualifications. Fas as an agency have no ability to train or help anybody to get a job.

lol, your dad screwed you royally.

Iwillinmyhole · 19-04-2013 5:54am

I'm not trying to blame FAS for everything but as a national agency responsible got training and employment I expected some guidance. If I wasn't trained properly then I shouldn't have been allowed to train people. Also I knew a FAS employee who was a woodworking teacher previously and was training bricklayers.
There's a FAS scheme ongoing in my local town and a female friend of mine is after getting a fetac qualification to teach woodwork after a 12 week course. She showed me what she made as part of her training and to be honest it was awful. But now she can train others to be equally as bad. The fact that my dad screwed me royally as a poster put it may give people a great laugh but that's not how I see it. There's lots of work in this country fixing up what qualified and accredited FAS trained carpenters messed up and in 29 years on the job I've never had to show any trade papers.

slpower01 · 20-04-2013 5:36pm

I am currently in talk with a conversion company in the UK as I have residency there as well. This crowd will convert my exam results into a recognised qualification and then in turn I can bring it into fas and get them to convert it into an Irish qualification as I will then be "qualified" (well if its even worth that) and I shall also bring my little story to the papers as they LOVE writing articles about fas. I was told 2 months back that they would phone me "tomorrow" as they have now lost my little book with results that they requested back.

slpower01 · 20-04-2013 5:40pm

And to the other guy who never did any exams.... I know fas do let a lot of butchers have papers but they teach a lot of theory and tech drawing which at the start I didn't see the purpose but now I am glad of it. In most countries in the world you would be deemed as a skilled labourer as your skills have never been tested to a standard.

Ray Palmer · 22-04-2013 12:55pm

My understanding is FAS just carry out the paper work. If you don't have the hours and the phases done you aren't qualified. not sure how this is the fault of FAS.

Isn't also match up with the European qualification system now so recognised without any transfer of certs?

mitosis · 22-04-2013 1:04pm

So, lads that won't do their exams, lads who don't have the registered apprentice time done, expect an agency to qualify them? Incompetent FAS? Incompetent trainees more like.

Mrs OBumble · 22-04-2013 3:44pm

mitosis wrote: »

Incompetent trainees more like.

A little harsh, perhaps. It's not exactly the trainees fault that they couldn't clock up the hours yet, due to the receission.

FAS are doing the job they are paid to do (enforce the standards), and refusing to implement an "Irish solution" ... and thinking about the standard of driving I've seen from some people who got their licences without even having to buy the cornflakes when Ireland joined the EU ... fair play to FAS for doing so.

Calgary22 · 22-04-2013 3:55pm

hahah yea fas are doing there job yea right there a bloody joke they have an obligation to help redudant apprentices get work. but they would sooner see us redundant apprentices on the dole then allow us to finish off our time. its a joke of a system and our apprenticeship union is even worse. i told the new zealand apprenticeship board and the Alberta apprenticeship board about the treatment redundant apprentices get here and they were shocked. as i feel i am going to have to emigrate soon if i don't get this mess sorted.

some of us are skilled workers we all our exams done and the 7 phases but still sort 10- 12 weeks and were left to rot on the dole does not make sense. all i want is to be able to keep my dole and finish my time and get my cert but i don't no why sw and fas wont allow it they would sooner see me at home on it not working. and people wonder why there's so many people on it.

slpower01 · 22-04-2013 4:05pm

I have my exams ans my hours but after doing everything fas are saying my hours didn't count for ****e.

Calgary22 · 22-04-2013 4:07pm

as i said mate there a joke a change of a career is our only option. is funny how they would never shaft any apprentices in semi state company's like bord na mona irish rail etc. there hours will always be spot on. it does not make sense all i want is my cert its a poor show.

Mrs OBumble · 22-04-2013 7:14pm

Calgary22 wrote: »

i told the new zealand apprenticeship board and the Alberta apprenticeship board about the treatment redundant apprentices get here and they were shocked. as i feel i am going to have to emigrate soon if i don't get this mess sorted.

You picked the wrong person to try that line on :-)

New Zealand's Trades Certification Board was abolished in 1990.

Building apprentices are now covered by the Building and Construction Industry Training Organisation. This is far more than just an "examining board" and does indeed have a role in matching people to new employers, when one employer cannot give them the right sort of training/hours. However they are very clear that it is the trainee who is responsible for getting - and keeping - a suitable job.

Many of the people working in apprenticeship area know full well that if an industry hasn't got much work on, it is often not possible to provide suitable training hours (especially ones who were around in the 1990s). I very much doubt that they would have been really shocked, though they might have expressed shock on the phone as part of managing the relationship with you.

Calgary22 · 22-04-2013 7:33pm

What line?:o
I am not a building apprentice i am an electrical apprentice. i was in contact with these guys http://www.ewrb.govt.nz/content/overseas.html and they were quite shocked at someone like me who has all my exams done and phases would be just left to rot on the dole. so i will stick to what i said in an earlier post fas are a bloody joke them so called apprentice adviser's sitting in there leather chairs on 600 or 700 euro a week are a joke aswell no help at all.

Davy r · 22-04-2013 9:18pm

I told my friend about this new CDM scheme Fas have. He is currenty doing Electrical Service Engineering and hes a qualified electrician. I told him about the design and quote he laughed and said thats not your job. How are Fas getting away with this new test for redundant apprentices . Designing a electrical installation is a electrical service engineers job, quoting prices with and without taxes is a estimator job. And testing in this exam , sure ya cant do testing course unless your qualified . In the real world electrical companies have depts . How do Fas expect redundant apprentices to know everything there is to know about an installation if there not trained to design and quote test and left rotting on the dole

Calgary22 · 22-04-2013 9:22pm

i can understand about the priceing bit being a bit stupid but the test itself is only made up over what we covered on the 7 phases and that includes testing:D the test its a great idea but some of it is flawed and the waiting list is huge.

Ray Palmer · 23-04-2013 11:34am

Calgary22 wrote: »

hahah yea fas are doing there job yea right there a bloody joke they have an obligation to help redudant apprentices get work. .

some of us are skilled workers we all our exams done and the 7 phases but still sort 10- 12 weeks and were left to rot on the dole does not make sense. all i want is to be able to keep my dole and finish my time and get my cert but i don't no why sw and fas wont allow it they would sooner see me at home on it not working. and people wonder why there's so many people on it.

Fas are not in anyway obliged to get you a job or even sort you with enough weeks to get your qualification. That is your own personal issue and you are under a misconception that they can magic such roles into existence.

If there are only 20 opportunities and 400 people looking how do you think they should decide who gets the roles? Why you feel you should get your dole while not available to work is a mystery to me.

You chose to train for a job that was obviously not going to keep it's demand and I know fas warn people signing up for course if they think the demand will dry up.

What have you done to go and find somebody to finish off your time with?

It is completely your choice to rot or not rot on the dole. You need to learn how to help yourself. There are lots of community project that could do with a spark. If you do good deed there will be people out there to help you. Sitting back doing nothing and moaning about how nobody is helping you will do you more damage than just not having your cert.

Your choice to be happy in the future by doing something now. I wish you the best but you are headed down a dark future if you continue as is.

Calgary22 · 23-04-2013 12:24pm

i agree with some of what you said but when i started the apprenticeship back in 07 there was an endless amount of work and fas were only to eager to sign apprentices up.I have done a lot of things to try and find work i have offered to work for free fas turned this down. i offered to go on a jobs bridge type scheme fas turned this down. i found two employers to take me on fas said both of these were not eligible. even though they have done nearly all of the major electrical work in my town. i also have worked more then the required time but fas wont backdate this which would allow me to get my cert. every other country allows this so it does not make sense. Like what more can i do.

I don't agree with your last line either is it to much to want something that is entitled to me if i give up on this electrical without getting my cert then i have nothing to show for the last 6 years. and also there's not only 20 positions there's so many places lads like myself could be put to finish our time. Irish rail,bus eireann, bord na mona, HSE and many more all these require electricians surely it would make more sense for me to be placed there and getting my dole and get my trade cert then to be at home everyday with no work.

there always going on about on the news about the number of under 25 males on the dole well a lot of us are apprentices many in the same boat as me if there were to do something like i have suggested it would reduce that number quite a bit.

m.j.w · 23-04-2013 12:52pm

Just thought id give my comments on this. I just finished my apprenticeship there in December and I was lucky enough to have work for the full 4 years so I go qualified.

Fas as an organization are an absolute joke and they couldn't care less about apprentices on their books. Throughout my apprenticeship any correspondence I had with fas was a disgrace. Trying to contact your training advisor is a nightmare, they never answer and if you leave a message they don't get back to you and their sole job is to look after apprentices. Nearly guaranteed you will have to ring 3 or 4 times to get through to them and when you do get through they don't want to help you. EXAMPLE - At the end of my apprenticeship I finished with my company as an apprentice after doing 206 weeks (2 weeks short but I was starting as an electrician the next week with a different company). I rang my training advisor to ask him would this be okay to save me having to register with my new employer as an apprentice for 2 weeks and he said it would be. The Tuesday of the next week they ring my employer and say I hadn't completed my apprenticeship as I was 2 weeks short. For a start why did they ring my employer and not me? I rang my training advisor and told him someone rang saying I wasn't qualified and his response was "well it wasn't me". I didn't give a f*** who it was I just wanted the matter resolved! Thats their attitude completely, pass the buck!

Phase 2,4,and 6 are your exam blocks. 4 and 6 are done in college and after the exams we had our results after a month. It took me 4 months to get my results after phase 2. How can it take 4 months to send out results of something that was corrected a week after it was done?

As for redundant apprentices, its very hard for a 3rd, 4th year apprentice to get work to finish their apprenticeship. Why would an employer take on a 3rd, 4th year when they can take on a 1st year and get a few years of cheap labour out of them. The company I worked for took on a redundant apprentice 2 years ago and he got 8 weeks work with us to get his weeks up. Cost the company nothing as he was getting dole and company was getting free labor. He was the only one that came in, why are fas not setting up schemes with big companys to take lads on for a few months to get their hours. You say its down to the apprentice but they cant do this themselves as they would lose thier dole money. Fas should be setting this up, its good for the apprentice and free labor for the company! Just because an initiative doesn't exist now doesn't mean one cant be set up.

As for that cdm test its a completely retarded solution to all this. Im an industrial electrician and with the current climate allot of work is in the industrial side of things. I would have absolute no experience of pricing or planning a job (since they are not really an electricians job) so why should inexperienced electricians be judged on whether or not they get tier cert on this test. Fas would be better suited trying to get lads the weeks work they need with companies instead of sticking them on a year waiting list to do this ridiculous test.

Calgary22 · 23-04-2013 12:56pm

Well said m.j.w agree 100% what you have said.

m.j.w · 23-04-2013 12:58pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Fas are not in anyway obliged to get you a job or even sort you with enough weeks to get your qualification. That is your own personal issue and you are under a misconception that they can magic such roles into existence.

Fas are the goverment employment agency and they are in charge of apprentices. They should be doing everything they can to get lads through their time as it could result in getting people of the dole. Im sure they could sort deals out with companies to take on apprentices if they bothered to do it but of course they wont as they dont care.

Ray Palmer · 23-04-2013 4:43pm

m.j.w wrote: »

Fas are the goverment employment agency and they are in charge of apprentices. They should be doing everything they can to get lads through their time as it could result in getting people of the dole. Im sure they could sort deals out with companies to take on apprentices if they bothered to do it but of course they wont as they dont care.

You are simply wrong in what you think FAS are there for and their obligations are. Fas are not in charge of apprentices, they mange the certification that has to match up with the rules and regulations of such. You are mixing up different roles that FAS

Companies don't want you and FAS can't make them want you. They are not there to create work placement for you in the first place. You are simply complaining about somebody not doing something that is not their responsibility. You may think it is but it isn't.

First FAS no longer exists but the roles that they cover still exist but are separate
1) The are facilitators for the apprentices exam
2) They provide training as they are directed
3) The advertise jobs
4) They assist companies to find employees

These are separate roles and are not combined. They cannot short cut your certification as it is independently audited. Hence your lecturer/teacher cannot tell you the two weeks short is ok. It is not up to him or even managed by him. The same reason is why it takes 4 months to process exam results as all back work and documentation is checked.

@Calgary22
In 2007 if you were unaware that the property bubble burst and would effect tradesmen than that is your fault and issue. It was so obvious and I know there were people in FAS warning people signing up to be apprentices. You aren't entitled to your cert because you never completed that in no way is the fault of FAS. Saying it doesn't make it true. When FAS turned you down was it because you didn't qualify? I can bet it is.

You are more than welcome to suggest what should be done but FAS are not the ones to do it for you. It simply isn't their job. I wonder how happy your fellow sparks would feel if a ton of free labour cut their overtime. I think you will find they are blocking you and not actually FAS. Why don't you organise yourself to get what you want. There is nothing stopping you. You can help yourself and others. Why not?

Davy r · 23-04-2013 5:44pm

I completely agree with m.j.w.

m.j.w · 23-04-2013 6:14pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You are simply wrong in what you think FAS are there for and their obligations are. Fas are not in charge of apprentices, they mange the certification that has to match up with the rules and regulations of such. You are mixing up different roles that FAS

Companies don't want you and FAS can't make them want you. They are not there to create work placement for you in the first place. You are simply complaining about somebody not doing something that is not their responsibility. You may think it is but it isn't.

First FAS no longer exists but the roles that they cover still exist but are separate
1) The are facilitators for the apprentices exam
2) They provide training as they are directed
3) The advertise jobs
4) They assist companies to find employees

These are separate roles and are not combined. They cannot short cut your certification as it is . Hence your lecturer/teacher cannot tell you the two weeks short is ok. It is not up to him or even managed by him. The same reason is why it takes 4 months to process exam results as all back work and documentation is checked.

@Calgary22
In 2007 if you were unaware that the property bubble burst and would effect tradesmen than that is your fault and issue. It was so obvious and I know there were people in FAS warning people signing up to be apprentices. You aren't entitled to your cert because you never completed that in no way is the fault of FAS. Saying it doesn't make it true. When FAS turned you down was it because you didn't qualify? I can bet it is.

You are more than welcome to suggest what should be done but FAS are not the ones to do it for you. It simply isn't their job. I wonder how happy your fellow sparks would feel if a ton of free labour cut their overtime. I think you will find they are blocking you and not actually FAS. Why don't you organise yourself to get what you want. There is nothing stopping you. You can help yourself and others. Why not?

Its not the job of Fas? Why did they set up the reduntant apprenticeship scheme then and have the 4th year apprentice start with us to get his weeks? It was fas that organised that and if they set it up with the company they would probably take other lads on every year. Im not saying every company would do it but im sure some would so there is nothing to stop fas doing it. Its in the interest of the apprentice and the state to get people qualified and the chance to get off the dole, would it not be common sence for fas to assist in this.

As for the independently audited certification, my training advisor told me that the 2 weeks short was okay, not the teacher and in the end up it was okay. Its fas that send the details of your weeks worked to them so thats why I took his word for it, common sence prevailed in the end. Fetac state that an apprentice must complete 208 weeks for apprenticeship, if you count the 4 weeks hoildays you get over 4 years that means you only work 192 weeks but you still get qualified dont you?

As for the exam results, when you are in college you get your results within a month but when you are in fas training centre it takes 3 months? Thats the fault of fas. Its nothing to do with fetac, they are given all your results when you are finished your apprenticeship so they would not have anything to do with the individual phase results.

Mrs OBumble · 24-04-2013 12:46am

Calgary22 wrote: »

What line?:o
I am not a building apprentice i am an electrical apprentice. i was in contact with these guys http://www.ewrb.govt.nz/content/overseas.html and they were quite shocked at someone like me who has all my exams done and phases would be just left to rot on the dole.

The Registration Board don't manage apprenticeships, they manage safety qualifications. And they may well have been surprised because they won't have had the experience of matching trainees to non-existent jobs.

Interestingly, it appears that in NZ electricians apprenticeships are one of the few areas in which you don't manage your own employment - these people do it for you: http://www.etco.co.nz/about-etco

Thinking back, I seem to remember hearing about this ... something to do with very few firms having enough range of work to ensure that apprentices got the full range of training that they need to be registered.

Ray Palmer is spot on: there are more un-completed apprentices than there will ever be places for.

And right now, you have a choice: contineu to be bitter and blame FAS (or the governtment, your guidance councellor, the EU, the English, whoever) - or get over it, and fiure out what you're going to do instead.

Yes, the position you are in sucks. It's not fair. Etc. But no one said that life would be fair. It's your attitude that determines what happens next.

m.j.w · 24-04-2013 9:40am

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ray Palmer is spot on: there are more un-completed apprentices than there will ever be places for.

And right now, you have a choice: contineu to be bitter and blame FAS (or the governtment, your guidance councellor, the EU, the English, whoever) - or get over it, and fiure out what you're going to do instead.

Yes, the position you are in sucks. It's not fair. Etc. But no one said that life would be fair. It's your attitude that determines what happens next.

I agree with you that it is not the fault of fas, goverment etc for apprentices being reduntant but there is more that could be done about it. You say there that there are more un-completed apprentices than places. Does that mean just because you cant help them all that you dont help any?

As I said in my opinion fas could set up agreements with bigger companies to take on lads each year. What you two are saying, its up to you to do it is a very simplistic outlook. The days of stolling onto building sites looking for work are over. If an apprentice rang these bigger companies saying they needed 5 or 6 weeks work they wouldnt be interested but im sure fas could use there influence to arrange for these companies to take 3 or 4 lads on a year. This way the apprentice would be paid by the dole and it costs the employer nothing. Would you not agree thats its not just in the interest of the apprentice to get qualified and if so would it not make sence for fas to assist in it?

What happens if my employer goes out of business or if I am made redundant during my apprenticeship?
Every effort will be made by FAS to help you progress through your apprenticeship if you find yourself in this situation. You should contact the FAS Training Adviser assigned to you when you were registered as an apprentice who will be able to offer you advice and assistance.

If it isnt part of their job to help you they should take that off their website.

Calgary22 · 24-04-2013 10:17am

Ray Palmer is spot on: there are more un-completed apprentices than there will ever be places for. .

Ray Palmer is not spot on there is just under 1000 thousand redundant apprentices that are in the same position as me. having completed all there college phases and off the job phases. every hospital in Ireland has electricians if there was be 2 apprentices places in every hospital i am sure that would take the brunt of the 1000 apprentices. and even if it didnt we could be placed in Bord na mona,esb,irish rail,bus eireann,dublin bus,daa, all of which employ electricians. so if the government had the right idea they should place us there and allow us to finish our time.

Ray Palmer · 24-04-2013 10:40am

m.j.w wrote: »

Its not the job of Fas? Why did they set up the reduntant apprenticeship scheme then and have the 4th year apprentice start with us to get his weeks? It was fas that organised that and if they set it up with the company they would probably take other lads on every year. Im not saying every company would do it but im sure some would so there is nothing to stop fas doing it. Its in the interest of the apprentice and the state to get people qualified and the chance to get off the dole, would it not be common sence for fas to assist in this..

To help apprentices but that doesn't mean they are going to 100% successful. It doesn't mean they are obliged nor you can't help yourself. Fas to contact companies to try and help but the companies don't want you. You are assuming they have done nothing because you assume the results would be better. You aren't needed, there is too many. What do you think would happen if you all were certified? There still won't be any work.

m.j.w wrote: »

As for the independently audited certification, my training advisor told me that the 2 weeks short was okay, not the teacher and in the end up it was okay. Its fas that send the details of your weeks worked to them so thats why I took his word for it, common sence prevailed in the end. Fetac state that an apprentice must complete 208 weeks for apprenticeship, if you count the 4 weeks hoildays you get over 4 years that means you only work 192 weeks but you still get qualified dont you?.

Your training advisor was wrong and ultimately doesn't have the authority to do that. I don't know all the rules but if you need 208 weeks that is what you need if they don't count holidays that seems fair to me.

m.j.w wrote: »

As for the exam results, when you are in college you get your results within a month but when you are in fas training centre it takes 3 months? Thats the fault of fas. Its nothing to do with fetac, they are given all your results when you are finished your apprenticeship so they would not have anything to do with the individual phase results.

In college you don't get your results in a month so I don't know what you are saying here. 3 month wait for certification that is independently evaluation. I have gotten results on professional qualification but waited over a year for the cert. This is not unusual.

Fas cannot make companies take you. You do not know what they have done to try to get companies to take you. EU law prevents many things such as providing free labour en mass that would effect tender processes.

Go ahead moan and do nothing yourself, it will not lead to a happy life and makes you come across quite badly. Maybe you would be different in person but I have met many people express similar views and I would describe them as having a chip on their shoulder and an ridiculous sense of entitlement. I am not sure you are even aware that is how it comes across.

If you feel you are being failed by the system do something about it. Look at what one guy did for himself by taking out a billboard ad. Pool together and help yourselves.

I am under the distinct impression that many just want their certs so they can leave the country. With such high demand you could get a foreign company to help you too. There is a lot that can be done, start thinking about that and stop moaning.

Ray Palmer · 24-04-2013 10:55am

Calgary22 wrote: »

Ray Palmer is not spot on there is just under 1000 thousand redundant apprentices that are in the same position as me. having completed all there college phases and off the job phases. every hospital in Ireland has electricians if there was be 2 apprentices places in every hospital i am sure that would take the brunt of the 1000 apprentices. and even if it didnt we could be placed in Bord na mona,esb,irish rail,bus eireann,dublin bus,daa, all of which employ electricians. so if the government had the right idea they should place us there and allow us to finish our time.

What have you done about it? What do you do with the 1000 qualified electricians then? Why should private companies take you on? With the exception of the hospitals the rest are private companies.

How do you know they haven't tried this?

Just another note. I would guess the electricians in the hospital are actually hired by a service company and not directly to the hospital. So you would have to go to the service company

bette · 24-04-2013 11:08am

A piece of paper is not a qualification, nor is it an indication of competence! Coming from FAS, to realise its real worth, this piece of paper should be very long, 11 centimetres wide and have a perforation every 13.5 centimetres across the width. Preferably rolled on a tube...

m.j.w · 24-04-2013 11:29am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You aren't needed, there is too many. What do you think would happen if you all were certified? There still won't be any work.

Fas cannot make companies take you. You do not know what they have done to try to get companies to take you. EU law prevents many things such as providing free labour en mass that would effect tender processes.

Go ahead moan and do nothing yourself, it will not lead to a happy life and makes you come across quite badly. Maybe you would be different in person but I have met many people express similar views and I would describe them as having a chip on their shoulder and an ridiculous sense of entitlement. I am not sure you are even aware that is how it comes across.

If you feel you are being failed by the system do something about it. Look at what one guy did for himself by taking out a billboard ad. Pool together and help yourselves.

I am under the distinct impression that many just want their certs so they can leave the country. With such high demand you could get a foreign company to help you too. There is a lot that can be done, start thinking about that and stop moaning.

If you bothered to read my first post you would see im fully qualified. Im in full time employment, I dont see why I would have a chip on my shoulder so theres no need for the condesending post

Your view about what would happen if you were all certified, their is no work is ridiculous. If these lads got qualified they could leave the country to get work thus getting being off the dole or even use their qualification to up skill. Alot of courses wont let you on them unless you have a trade cert. Having the attitiude of sure theres no work for you so we just wont help is wrong! In that case why not just scrap apprenticeships now.

m.j.w · 24-04-2013 11:33am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I am under the distinct impression that many just want their certs so they can leave the country. With such high demand you could get a foreign company to help you too. There is a lot that can be done, start thinking about that and stop moaning.

It would be a sad state of affairs if irish apprentices had to goto foreign companys to help them complete their apprenticeships just because their own goverment doesnt want to help.

ABajaninCork · 24-04-2013 11:35am

LOL at Bette!

FAS are about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike! I went in to see them, and was back out in two minutes. Young boy was telling me all the websites I could use for my job search. I already knew about them, and had to tell him several more! The courses are worse than useless too. If you have a FAS qualification, I think employers just look at them and laugh...:rolleyes:

bette · 24-04-2013 11:55am

Calgary22 wrote: »

Its not a Fas qualification its fetac trade cert so it shows how little you no about the subject we are talking about:D. a fetac trade cert is worth a hell of a lot more now then many uni and it degrees are.

Really? It's a piece of paper. It also should be perforate along it's width at 13.5 centimetre distances. The ability to do a job should be measured in the most practical way and that is by a competent, prospective employer and not some leeching manpower agency.

Calgary22 · 24-04-2013 11:58am

m.j.w does it reach such requirements?:D as you can read from my posts i have not got mine yet. i agree about the ability to do the job skills etc. but the fact is i cant work in my trade legally until i get my trade cert. so i am kinda screwed arnt i

bette · 24-04-2013 12:10pm

Calgary22 wrote: »

m.j.w does it reach such requirements?:D as you can read from my posts i have not got mine yet. i agree about the ability to do the job skills etc. but the fact is i cant work in my trade legally until i get my trade cert. so i am kinda screwed arnt i

That is what is wrong in this employment market. Paper is worth more that skill!

Davy r · 24-04-2013 12:11pm

Ray Palmer have you done an apprenticeship yourself?

Calgary22 · 24-04-2013 12:14pm

I no i agree and i cant even emigrate either as my trade is also regulated and i was told it would be illegal to do so in that country. and i cant continue on in apprenticeship in there country as i am not a PR. so i have two options stay here and try get my trade cert which will allow me to work legally worldwide and get better skills or emigrate and work as a labourer for 14$ and hour that might be fine now when i am in my early 20's but will not be much good when i am in my 50's. so i am opting for the first option to stay and get my cert. while i still have the support of my family. as people told me if i leave without my trade cert it will be the biggest mistake i will ever make. and it would be.

Calgary22 · 24-04-2013 12:16pm

Davy r wrote: »

Ray Palmer have you done an apprenticeship yourself?

No but i think he works with fas:D;)

Davy r · 24-04-2013 12:27pm

Haha he does actually . Dictating to people who have nearly completed apprenticeships. Hes sounds like a HR person

Eoin · 24-04-2013 12:56pm

No personal comments in this thread please.

Ray Palmer · 24-04-2013 1:08pm

Calgary22 wrote: »

Its not a Fas qualification its fetac trade cert so it shows how little you no about the subject we are talking about:D. a fetac trade cert is worth a hell of a lot more now then many uni and it degrees are.

College qualifications are hetac and fetac awarded. They are worth the same. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what you are getting and why the award system was changed. It is basically to allow peoples' education be comparable. Fetac trade is only more valuable in your field not for general roles.

m.j.w wrote: »

It would be a sad state of affairs if irish apprentices had to goto foreign companys to help them complete their apprenticeships just because their own goverment doesnt want to help.

Yet you already stated what people would do if they were qualified. As I know that would be the plan I suggested a way to do that. Don't care if you don't want to do anything. The government doesn't need to help you as there aren't jobs for you. There is no need while other countries want them.

m.j.w wrote: »

If you bothered to read my first post you would see im fully qualified. Im in full time employment, I dont see why I would have a chip on my shoulder so theres no need for the condesending post

Your view about what would happen if you were all certified, their is no work is ridiculous. If these lads got qualified they could leave the country to get work thus getting being off the dole or even use their qualification to up skill. .

What I pointed out is you sound like somebody with a chip on your shoulder as does Calgary22. No suggestions to help your fellow apprentices other than getting somebody else to do it. A sense of entitlement combined with blaming other= chip on shoulder. You appear to have a chip on your shoulder it doesn't need you to have a logical reason. As somebody who has listened to your arguments I am letting you know how it appears. Don't believe me, I don't really care. You won't be able to hide it. Nobody wants to hire a moaner but they do hire people who are self motivated. Do you think you come across as self motivate or a moaner?

m.j.w · 24-04-2013 2:03pm

So your view on things is they are leaving the country anyway so lets not help them? Better to not help them get their cert and keep them in the country on the dole.

Dont see how you are mistaking me saying fas should be helping apprentices as self entitlement and as for the blame part I already stated in a previous post that it was not fas fault that these people are reduntant. I just said they should help them more which would be benifical to the apprentice and the country!

Ray Palmer · 24-04-2013 2:40pm

m.j.w wrote: »

So your view on things is they are leaving the country anyway so lets not help them? Better to not help them get their cert and keep them in the country on the dole.!

Go back and read what I posted and you will see I said quite the opposite. If they are going to leave anyway why not get the companies who want them elsewhere to help them get certified so they can go. Why don't the apprentices organise it themselves? I don't see why they can't help themselves and rely on others to do it for them.

m.j.w wrote: »

Dont see how you are mistaking me saying fas should be helping apprentices as self entitlement and as for the blame part I already stated in a previous post that it was not fas fault that these people are reduntant. I just said they should help them more which would be benifical to the apprentice and the country!

Just don't believe me. I have told you how it is coming across. If you can't see it and think it is all completely justified there isn't much I can explain to you. You think I was condescending I don't need it explained to me why you think that, I don't agree but I understand why you said it. You don't appear to be able to look at what you are saying in the same critical nature and can't see it other posters either.

m.j.w · 24-04-2013 2:52pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Yet you already stated what people would do if they were qualified. As I know that would be the plan I suggested a way to do that. Don't care if you don't want to do anything. The government doesn't need to help you as there aren't jobs for you. There is no need while other countries want them.

Are you suggesting that forgien companys take on Irish apprentices to help them get weeks towards their apprenticeships?

· If I am made redundant and can’t get work in Ireland, can I continue my apprenticeship abroad
No, however work experience gained abroad may be considered for accreditation towards time served.

Even if they did accept it you cant work in the electrical trade in Aus/Canada unless you are either a qualified electrician or registered as an apprentice. I know for canada anyway and I think its the same for australia that the only way you can become an apprentice is if you are a permanent resident so thats that idea out the window.

Your post above clearly states what you think.

Eoin · 24-04-2013 3:04pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

What I pointed out is you sound like somebody with a chip on your shoulder as does Calgary22. No suggestions to help your fellow apprentices other than getting somebody else to do it. A sense of entitlement combined with blaming other= chip on shoulder. You appear to have a chip on your shoulder it doesn't need you to have a logical reason. As somebody who has listened to your arguments I am letting you know how it appears. Don't believe me, I don't really care. You won't be able to hide it. Nobody wants to hire a moaner but they do hire people who are self motivated. Do you think you come across as self motivate or a moaner?

From the post immediately above yours.

Eoin wrote: »

No personal comments in this thread please.

Davy r · 24-04-2013 3:09pm

So question again for Ray. Have you done an apprenticeship?

Mrs OBumble · 24-04-2013 3:14pm

Davy r wrote: »

So question again for Ray. Have you done an apprenticeship?

I cannot see how that is relevant.

There are far more jobs in this country for which no apprenticeship system exists, than ones whch require an apprenticeship.

Any Ray clearly has a realistic view of the labour market in the building and related trades areas.

Davy r · 24-04-2013 3:27pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I cannot see how that is relevant.

There are far more jobs in this country for which no apprenticeship system exists, than ones whch require an apprenticeship.

Any Ray clearly has a realistic view of the labour market in the building and related trades areas.

Are you Ray? Facepalm

Ray Palmer · 24-04-2013 3:31pm

m.j.w wrote: »

Are you suggesting that forgien companys take on Irish apprentices to help them get weeks towards their apprenticeships?

· If I am made redundant and can’t get work in Ireland, can I continue my apprenticeship abroad
No, however work experience gained abroad may be considered for accreditation towards time served.

Even if they did accept it you cant work in the electrical trade in Aus/Canada unless you are either a qualified electrician or registered as an apprentice. I know for canada anyway and I think its the same for australia that the only way you can become an apprentice is if you are a permanent resident so thats that idea out the window.

Your post above clearly states what you think.

Seriously you missed the point. Organise with an foreign company to get your weeks up in this country. THEN you can go to the other country as a fully qualified what ever. You seem to be suggesting it is not that long a time people need.

Very easy to set up a company and get a few contracts to fill the requirements.

Incompetent FAS

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