Letting Agent want us to pay oil bill

eas

hi all,

Myself and my wife are entering into a 12 month lease. We're very close to signing contracts and today we get an email from the estate agents saying that they expect us to cover a €200 oil bill from 2 weeks ago while the house was on show. This seems ridiculous to me, but is this normal or are they chancing it?

thanks

djk1000

Chancing it, in a really really big way.

Solair

I think I'd tell them to get stuffed to be quite honest and walk away.
That's ridiculous nonsense.

If they're going to be like this before you sign anything, imagine what they'll be like when you're subject to the terms of a lease!

mckildare

Lol, complete chancers. Tell them it cancels the 200 euro they owe you for the petrol you spent on getting to the house, that's about as ludicrous as their suggestion.

Stone Deaf 4evr

Chancing it.

monkeypants

This €200 of oil, is it still in the tank, unused?

P. Breathnach

They might as well ask you to pay for advertising the property!

If there is a useful amount of oil in the tank, it might be reasonable to ask that you recognise that fact, and undertake either to leave about the same amount when the letting is terminated or pay for it at that point (rather as is often done with car hire).

eas

yea, that's what I figured. I let me wife reply to that email, basically with a forget it.

I may add that we also agreed to do the lawn and such - only to find out today that we'd also need to supply the mower (no, really).

seamus

Dip the tank and find out how much is in it. If it's more than €200 worth, give them €200. If it's less, pay them that.

There's logic in what they're asking for, but for all you know they've had the heating on all day and night while the place was being shown.

Victor

eas wrote: »

I may add that we also agreed to do the lawn and such

Not unreasonable.

only to find out today that we'd also need to supply the mower (no, really).

Not that strange. I imagine there are plant hire places that will rent you one for the day.

tipptopper

seamus wrote: »

Dip the tank and find out how much is in it. If it's more than €200 worth, give them €200. If it's less, pay them that.

There's logic in what they're asking for, but for all you know they've had the heating on all day and night while the place was being shown.

Jesus this reply really takes the biscuit. There is absolutley NO logic in what they are asking for ffs. Op tell em to take a hike.

eas

We agreed to doing the lawn, no problem. So yes, we thought that was reasonable.

I do find it strange to expect your tenant to take on the expense of hiring / purchasing a mover in order to take care of the grounds, but we're willing to concede this and make the purchase.

The oil, I don't think we'll be agreeing to any part of that.

seamus

tipptopper wrote: »

Jesus this reply really takes the biscuit. There is absolutley NO logic in what they are asking for ffs. Op tell em to take a hike.

It's the same as a car rental company supplying a car with a full tank of fuel and charging you for it.

A tad stingey perhaps, but it's not an unreasonable request.

thegreatiam

I find it reasonable to be expected to pay for the oil (if there is 200 worth in the tank, if not then ill only pay for what is there) I would also expect them to compensate me if I leave the house at the end of the tenancy with oil in the tank.

I find it out of order that they would expect me to tend to the garden and supply a mower for it. I was under the impression that out side maintenance was the LL responsibility.

Id have no problem mowing the lawn, but Id be using his mower.

Chris_5339762

The mower isn't unreasonable.... its the landlords house but its your home during the tenancy. Would you not mow your own lawn? You can rent or buy a cheap mower or ask the landlord if they have an old one.

Rasmus

I would pay for what is in the tank, now. Put in the dipstick and offer to pay that, otherwise I would walk away now. Issues already with an agent before moving in? Sounds like trouble.

seamus

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The mower isn't unreasonable.... its the landlords house but its your home during the tenancy. Would you not mow your own lawn?

Maintaining the property is the landlord's responsibility, so it's very cheeky to ask the tenant to do that and then not supply the tools necessary to do it.

That said, in most cases I would probably buy my own 'mower anyway because I wouldn't trust a landlord to be as diligent about cutting the grass as I would be, especially in summer.

thegreatiam

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The mower isn't unreasonable.... its the landlords house but its your home during the tenancy. Would you not mow your own lawn? You can rent or buy a cheap mower or ask the landlord if they have an old one.

I would mow the lawn,(once Id be living there a while I wouldnt want to move in to an unprepared house) but not supply the mower unless I was on a really long lease 5+yrs.
What if at the end of the lease you move to a house with no garden, what you gonna do with a mower then?

Id ask them to give you the oil and put it in the contract that you will leave a similar amount when you go (or it is deducted from the deposit).

I would also say they they pay a gardener to tidy the garden before moving in and that you will do general light work on it through out the tenancy and you will buy the mower, but the cost will come from a deduction in rent each month until it is paid for , then you will leave the mower when you move out.

vader65

They are definitely chancing it there!

horsemaster

If they do this, what else can they do to you after you sign the contract?

eas

We do not expect free oil, that's for sure. If they expect us to pay up front there must be provisions made at the other end to reimburse us for the oil that we are leaving.

Again, doing the lawn is not the issue, neither is us purchasing a mower to do the lawn. This was mentioned simply to show that we've already made concessions that will cost us money.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

Gormal

Find a happy medium. Measure how much is in the tank with the agent, Tell the Agent that you will leave the same amount in the tank when you leave the property, if you use it you will pay for it. I do think they are chancing it asking you to pay for oil that heated a property that you weren't living in.

When we moved into our 1st property the agent put €100 in the tank, which we agreed would be left in it when we left. Which is what we did. It was written into the lease.

The next property wasn't a problem as the previous tenant had completely drained the tank.

Viper_JB

I thought the standard in this is the LL or letting agents top the oil up to brim before you move in, on their own buck then when you leave, you top the oil to brim before you leave....simples, anything else would just be eyeballing surely?

jmayo

eas wrote: »

hi all,

Myself and my wife are entering into a 12 month lease. We're very close to signing contracts and today we get an email from the estate agents saying that they expect us to cover a €200 oil bill from 2 weeks ago while the house was on show. This seems ridiculous to me, but is this normal or are they chancing it?

thanks

seamus wrote: »

Dip the tank and find out how much is in it. If it's more than €200 worth, give them €200. If it's less, pay them that.

There's logic in what they're asking for, but for all you know they've had the heating on all day and night while the place was being shown.

From reading the post above it looks like the landlord/agent filled €200 euros worth of oil into the system so that they could heat the place up while showing it to perspective tenants.
At this time of year and depending on house in order to make the place feel cosy there is good bet the heating was on for a bit over the weeks since the oild was delivered.
Asking the tenant to pay for oil they didn't use is pulling the p***.

Only way of doing this is to dip the tank to try and figure out how much is in it and make approximation for that.
There is no way I would agree to cover exact bill from a couple of weeks back.

P_1

If you use the oil then pay for it.

If you don't use the oil then don't pay for it.

Fairly simple I would have thought.

eas

Legal Expert wrote: »

After thinking about this one I have a feeling there is a bit of a scam going on.

I'd definitely have considered that as well, but there's a combination of 2 things that make me think it's on the level, but cheeky.

1) They have a receipt.

2) Coincidently the oil guy was there when we arrived to view the house. I chatted with him and he told me he was putting 160 litres in to keep things running.

Anyhow, the issue has been resolved with us agreeing to measure the oil on moving in and making sure it's at least to that level when we leave. I'll probably take the suggestion made earlier and ask them to fill it and we'll fill it.

percy212

If you want to mow the lawn fire ahead. However one of the advantages of renting is that upkeep and maintenance is the landlords responsibility. Personally after being asked to pay for oil that I didn't order, I would sit back and watch the grass grow.

Merch

seamus wrote: »

Dip the tank and find out how much is in it. If it's more than €200 worth, give them €200. If it's less, pay them that.

There's logic in what they're asking for, but for all you know they've had the heating on all day and night while the place was being shown.

Dip it, see how much is there and agree to leave the same amount of oil in litres.

eas wrote: »

We do not expect free oil, that's for sure. If they expect us to pay up front there must be provisions made at the other end to reimburse us for the oil that we are leaving.

Again, doing the lawn is not the issue, neither is us purchasing a mower to do the lawn. This was mentioned simply to show that we've already made concessions that will cost us money.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

I agree about not paying up front, its reasonable to agree to mow it, Id say its fair enough to get a cheap mower if one isnt available.

Viper_JB wrote: »

I thought the standard in this is the LL or letting agents top the oil up to brim before you move in, on their own buck then when you leave, you top the oil to brim before you leave....simples, anything else would just be eyeballing surely?

who thinks like this? other than you of course?? whats to say most people will be that cooperative when they leave, one thing for sure, I dont agree they should pay up front, but you want a full tank lol
Fair enough, sure its just like a car rental, well why dont you go and provide credit card details, have that noted in the lease and then keep that updated throughout the lease so you can be deducted in case you forget.

Legal Expert wrote: »

That's fair enough then. Be careful about the filling it suggestion. You could move out in 3 years only to find oil has doubled in price.

160 litres is 160 litres, it will likely go up over time, what it costs is irrelevant, they get the advantage of 160litres at the start of their lease without having to fork over cash,

percy212 wrote: »

If you want to mow the lawn fire ahead. However one of the advantages of renting is that upkeep and maintenance is the landlords responsibility. Personally after being asked to pay for oil that I didn't order, I would sit back and watch the grass grow.

Id suggest that kind of upkeep and maintenance isnt a landlords responsibility, and if its agreed for by the tenant, you sound a bit unreasonable, me me me wa wa, like you'd be up in arms if they turn up every week to cut the grass, you should get your landlord to take out your bins, make you tea and wipe your hole while you're at it.
Jeezzus.

percy212

Merch wrote: »

Id suggest that kind of upkeep and maintenance isnt a landlords responsibility, and if its agreed for by the tenant, you sound a bit unreasonable, me me me wa wa, like you'd be up in arms if they turn up every week to cut the grass, you should get your landlord to take out your bins, make you tea and wipe your hole while you're at it.
Jeezzus.

You sound like a slumlord, and an illiterate.

Merch

percy212 wrote: »

You sound like a slumlord, and an illiterate.

One, I'm not. I used to house share and rented jointly years ago, people would try skive out of doing their fair share, bills, whatever. I've come across some unreasonable greedy landlords, but mostly it was the bad co-tenants that were worse.

Two, at what point do you consider me illiterate?? I've certainly a habit of rushing my punctuation, but Id hardly describe myself as that, Im a lazy/bad typist, but illiterate, no. So it's not like you didn't get the gist of what I was saying, you clearly understood it clearly.

Legal Expert wrote: »

And you'd be entirely wrong. Some tenants might like to tend to the garden as a hobby and an extension of their house pride rather than rely on a landlord to come regularly to mow. This is completely optional and a landlord has to mow the lawn if they don't agree. They should definitely not be paying for their own mower. I'd be paying someone to come around every few weeks and taking that off the rent if a landlord failed to mow the lawn.

So by your legal expertise you believe what you say is correct
but then you top that off by saying something completely illegal.

Legal Expert wrote: »

http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,21710,en.pdf

The link you provide says
"gardens and common areas maintained in good condition
and repair and not defective due to dampness or otherwise"

In good condition and repair, does not say cut the grass, that could be read in many ways, it just means in good condition, doesn't say in any part that any landlord has to cut the grass or provide someone to do that whatsoever.

If you read it all as one sentence, even less so.

The OP responded reasonably, I was going to reply, how do they even know the oil was not left by the previous tenants, but they say they saw the guy deliver it.
It sounds fair that the agent isn't out of pocket for expenses and its fair and reasonable to not expect the OP to fork out up front for oil they didn't order.
Communication and reasonable behaviour by adults, problem sorted .The Op managed it.
All tenants seem to think only landlords are terrible and
Landlords likewise.

Merch

Legal Expert wrote: »

You are clutching at straws here. So you'd come into court and argue to a judge that an overgrown garden with weeds and footlong grass was kept "in good condition" ?

BTW witholding rent is perfectly acceptable. A landlord could take a case with the PRTB saying rent was not being paid. A case would be heard and the the PRTB would rule that the tenant owes the landlord the rent whilst they would also rule that the landlord owes the tenant money for the reasonable costs incurred for them failing in their landlords obligations.



Fancy another go?

Yes, Im sure there will be some scenario of a tenant taking a landlord to court over not cutting the grass, such a person would be considered to have a penchant for disagreeableness.

All what you link to suggests some failure on the landlords part to fix something that affects their comfortable and healthy occupation of a property.

Maybe to an unreasonable person/tenant it is acceptable to withold rent.
The last I heard it was illegal, it certainly wont put you in a good position or be looked upon favourably by the PRTB, to me it's just the same as a landlord holding a deposit.
I cant see anywhere in the link you provided that it says any landlord has to cut the grass, it just says maintain the garden in good condition, that could mean a plethora of things and still doesn't specify cutting grass, neither can I find it in the RTA 2004/10.

As the OPs question seems to have been answered, and we aren't going to change each others mind, good luck with your case against your landlord for not mowing the lawn, what kind of lazy, disagreeable person argues with another person over that??? maybe you get him/her to bring you some iced lemon drinks while you then watch them mow your lawn.

Merch

Legal Expert wrote: »

No I give him cold hard cash every month and I expect some services for that money. Would you pay for a hotel room and then clean the place yourself every day?

Well, I hope when you say cold hard cash you actually mean your hard earned cash in the form of some bank transfer, otherwise you may be facilitating a person evading their tax liability, while there may be no penalty for you, it means your landlord could very likely be getting away with paying tax if it is cash in hand.

Would I pay for a hotel room and then clean it? well actually I'd keep it tidy and in clean order, I wouldnt get out my cif and rubber gloves, but that really is a different arrangement.

In a fair and legal agreement, Id expect both parties to act fairly and reasonably, Id no more expect a landlord to come around and cut the grass then I would expect them to come around and clean the bath.
If I was renting, I wouldn't want to provide my own lawnmower, if I was asked to keep the garden (depending on its size) Id likely agree as I dislike seeing an unkempt garden as I consider it somewhat lazy and inconsiderate of the occupants towards their neighbors to not give a toss even if their landlord is responsible, but I'd suggest the landlord provide the tools. Id hazard a guess most people would prefer to do that than have their landlords nosing around frequently and legitimately if the tenant requested it/agrees to it.

sailordog13

Who would be liable if there was an accident with the 'provided' mower ?

percy212

sailordog13 wrote: »

Who would be liable if there was an accident with the 'provided' mower ?

Merch

Merch

sailordog13 wrote: »

Who would be liable if there was an accident with the 'provided' mower ?

I suppose that depends on what type of accident it was,
what kind of accident is it?? what was the cause??

Adult homeowners are responsible for themselves, have adult tenants suddenly not become responsible?

StillWaters

I have never had a landlord cut grass in places I rented, and now as a LL I have never had a tenant ask me to do it.
Of course a mower has always been provided, but to me, this is like window cleaning, a task left to the occupiers of the house. One one hand tenants want a continental system with long leases, unfurnushed lets and landlords at a remove. On the other, they want the LL to cut the grass!

dissed doc

Legal Expert wrote: »

No I give him cold hard cash every month and I expect some services for that money. Would you pay for a hotel room and then clean the place yourself every day?

You don't get any services, it's not a hotel: it's a tenancy. You are the tenant and the property is now your home. The landlord is not a groundskeeper and in your home you maintain your own place while it's yoru tenancy - you clean the windows, vacuum the carpet, cut the grass. Big boy's rules. .

Merch

StillWaters wrote: »

I have never had a landlord cut grass in places I rented, and now as a LL I have never had a tenant ask me to do it.
Of course a mower has always been provided, but to me, this is like window cleaning, a task left to the occupiers of the house. One one hand tenants want a continental system with long leases, unfurnushed lets and landlords at a remove. On the other, they want the LL to cut the grass!

I didnt think Irish people were used to or wanted unfurnished lets?
Maybe this is non Irish renters that are used to it?? is it?
What do you mean landlords at a remove? do you mean on hand 24-7 at the end of a phone??

dissed doc wrote: »

You don't get any services, it's not a hotel: it's a tenancy. You are the tenant and the property is now your home. The landlord is not a groundskeeper and in your home you maintain your own place while it's yoru tenancy - you clean the windows, vacuum the carpet, cut the grass. Big boy's rules. .

This is the thing, Ive read through plenty of threads and spoken to people too! and the thing I hear is people (tenants) insist a place is their home (which it is) but when it comes to actually doing some of the stuff that comes with having a home, the ancillary maintenance, like keeping the place clean and tidy (not fixing the gutters), well then its not their home, its some place they are pumping dead money into and its not their place all of a sudden!
As a homeowner, if I see rented places with the gutter falling off, I think the landlord is lazy and doesnt give a stuff about the area, if i see the grass uncut I assume the tenant is lazy and doesn't give stuff about the area.

StillWaters

Merch wrote: »

I didnt think Irish people were used to or wanted unfurnished lets?
Maybe this is non Irish renters that are used to it?? is it?
What do you mean landlords at a remove? do you mean on hand 24-7 at the end of a phone??
.

Increasingly I am finding tenants are less transient than they used to be. Tenants are seeing renting as a long term viable option, and the Market, or certainly a sector of it is responding. My tenants brought their own bed and suite of furniture for example. It is their home. When I say at a remove, I mean a professional relationship. I don't bother them, and trust them to get on with it. Small jobs they fix themselves, they keep the place in good order, and dont contact me when the windows need washing, or the lawn needs mowing. When there are issues, and they are very rare, they are fixed promptly, often by the tenants, paid by me of course.
I would be loathe to go back to the type of arrangement some people here seem to expect, and that may be the norm when credit returns. I'd exit the Market first.

eas

Just for perspective, would your tenants bring lawn mowers or would you have one on site?

percy212

The Amateur LL's are out in force on this thread. Imagine tenants bringing their own furniture to a rental!! Fierce continental altogether! I wish the Irish rental market would mature so that all rentals were run by well staffed management companies who do what is required of them without getting emotional or pejorative about tenants.

The fact that so many are losing the plot here about who should mow a lawn is Father Ted worthy. At the end of the day the LL is responsible for maintenance of the property. If the tenant is not maintaining the lawn, then the landlord must. Whether or not the landlords on this thread agree or not is irrelevant.

OP, you asked for advice. Here it is: don't pay for the oil, it should be a goodwill gesture from your landlord since you are generously offering to help with outside maintenance. Secondly the landlord should provide a lawnmower. If I were you I would take a long hard look at this rental. You are being pushed around and you haven't even moved in yet. Best of luck. I hope it all works out to your satisfaction.

eas

Thanks percy212, that advice hits the mark for me.

we're bringing our own furniture

going off topic here but it is quite difficult to find 3-4 bed houses that either come unfurnished and/or has adequate storage. Houses that do have sheds/garages all seem to be full with the owners belongings and not included with the rental. I can understand this in built up areas but we're looking in Wicklow. The common story is that the owners emigrate for whatever reason and leave the house up for lease, seemingly not giving much thought to what perspective renters may require for storage, even for simple things like bicycles.

Sikpupi

Cutting the grass is one thing...... I find getting rid of the cut grass a problem especially living in town!!!

(..so don't ask me how I do it !! wink wink nod nod!!!)

bidiots

percy212 wrote: »

The Amateur LL's are out in force on this thread. Imagine tenants bringing their own furniture to a rental!! Fierce continental altogether! I wish the Irish rental market would mature so that all rentals were run by well staffed management companies who do what is required of them without getting emotional or pejorative about tenants.

The fact that so many are losing the plot here about who should mow a lawn is Father Ted worthy. At the end of the day the LL is responsible for maintenance of the property. If the tenant is not maintaining the lawn, then the landlord must. Whether or not the landlords on this thread agree or not is irrelevant.

OP, you asked for advice. Here it is: don't pay for the oil, it should be a goodwill gesture from your landlord since you are generously offering to help with outside maintenance. Secondly the landlord should provide a lawnmower. If I were you I would take a long hard look at this rental. You are being pushed around and you haven't even moved in yet. Best of luck. I hope it all works out to your satisfaction.

It took 4 pages but finally a bit of sense....what he said.

jmayo

Sikpupi wrote: »

Cutting the grass is one thing...... I find getting rid of the cut grass a problem especially living in town!!!

(..so don't ask me how I do it !! wink wink nod nod!!!)

A sheep or a goat ???

I know someone who was stopped and a charge demanded when they went to reclying dump centre.
They just went and spread it in the local park.

Can you be charged with littering grass ?

eas

After some consideration we decided to pull out. On top of what's been discussed there was other background noise happening. 6 month contract break clause & possible viewings if the owners decided to sell the house all came up during negotiations. The feeling that this was only a sign of things to come made us reconsider and pull out.

thanks everyone for their opinions and advice.

percy212

Best of luck in your search. Its a nice time of the year to look around

Victor

Merch wrote: »

Id suggest that kind of upkeep and maintenance isnt a landlords responsibility, and if its agreed for by the tenant, you sound a bit unreasonable, me me me wa wa, like you'd be up in arms if they turn up every week to cut the grass, you should get your landlord to take out your bins, make you tea and wipe your hole while you're at it.
Jeezzus.

Merch wrote: »

As the OPs question seems to have been answered, and we aren't going to change each others mind, good luck with your case against your landlord for not mowing the lawn, what kind of lazy, disagreeable person argues with another person over that??? maybe you get him/her to bring you some iced lemon drinks while you then watch them mow your lawn.

No need to be so patronising.

percy212 wrote: »

You sound like a slumlord, and an illiterate.

Behave. Constructive posts only please.

Moderator

percy212

Victor, I was responding to this very rude post from Merch. I don't find it constructive. I have reported it - oh I can't report it. Well this the report in that case.

Merch wrote: »

Id suggest that kind of upkeep and maintenance isnt a landlords responsibility, and if its agreed for by the tenant, you sound a bit unreasonable, me me me wa wa, like you'd be up in arms if they turn up every week to cut the grass, you should get your landlord to take out your bins, make you tea and wipe your hole while you're at it.
Jeezzus.

djimi

eas wrote: »

After some consideration we decided to pull out. On top of what's been discussed there was other background noise happening. 6 month contract break clause & possible viewings if the owners decided to sell the house all came up during negotiations. The feeling that this was only a sign of things to come made us reconsider and pull out.

thanks everyone for their opinions and advice.

I wouldnt let a 6 month break clause put you off; they can come in extremely handy as I found out first hand when it allowed me to get out of a lease on a place that turned out to be a bit of a disaster! If you are new to a property/area then you might be glad of an escape clause. I know it also allows the landlord an out, but chances are that once you are a good tenant and have no issues paying rent then there is little reason for them to want you out after 6 months.

eas

We did see the possible value in the 6 month break clause for sure, but it wasn't the 6 month break clause on it's own that made us change our minds, it was everything combined. The overwhelming feeling that we where the bottom of the relationship and that was not going to change, and possibly get worse.

Since then, we've been in contact with another letting agent about another property and things could not be better. The whole thing seems to be about us, not them.

And someone comes to do the lawn every 2 weeks.