What are your Entitlements?

hames

The communism and rag week threads got me thinking about things we think we were entitled to.

Premise of the thread is pretty simple. Make a list of the things to which you are entitled, in your opinion.

My list

-my parents' love
-basic food and shelter
-freedom from mental or physical bondage in all its forms, except in the common good

And if I am entitled to these basic things, is everyone else not entitled to them as well?

Should basic entitlements be human priority, before we start assuming higher entitlements, like specific social welfare incomes, job increments, pensions, and so on?

Have we completely lost the run of ourselves?

edit:
this thread is about those entitlements which are deduced morally (which can include legal entitlements but not simply because they are legal entitlements).

sfwcork

Bondage....so u no likey whips and chains

Eve_Dublin

Hangover can't process this. Sorry.

cherryghost

Internet.

If I lived in Finland or Estonia, anyway.

Where To

We're not entitled to anything, the whole universe could disappear in a flash at any second and your entitlements would be worth diddly-squat then.

Captain_Generic

- monster munch thats not full of air
- air

MadsL

hames wrote: »

My list

-my parents' love
-basic food and shelter
-freedom from mental or physical bondage in all its forms, except in the common good

And if I am entitled to these basic things, is everyone else not entitled to them as well?

Hate to break it to you, but you are not entitled to the love of your parents. Many a child has been told they were never loved.

sfwcork

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Hangover can't process this. Sorry.

Your not the only one.All i gathered was bondage

hames

Where To wrote: »

We're not entitled to anything, the whole universe could disappear in a flash at any second and your entitlements would be worth diddly-squat then.

Just to make it clear, I'm not talking about God given 'entitlements', I only mean things we are owed from our fellow human being, and that we therefore owe him in turn.

Or do people reject that idea too, that there is nothing that is good that is inherently deserved?

kfallon

We're entitled to a wankbreak at 11am in work......some rush to the traps at 10.59 and when you get back all the A4 paper in the printers has disappeared

hames

MadsL wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, but you are not entitled to the love of your parents. Many a child has been told they were never loved.

I'm not necessarily talking about now that I am grown, that was intended to reflect an entitlement to loving guardianship, which can occur in many forms.

tayto lover

There are your Human Rights. All 30 of them --

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

orestes

You don't have any.

Depending on the society you are born into, you might have certain rights, but they are dependent on you meeting certain obligations (like following the law, passing certain trials to become a man, etc.)

RaRaRasputin

hames wrote: »

I'm not necessarily talking about now that I am grown, that was intended to reflect an entitlement to loving guardianship, which can occur in many forms.

Yeah valid wish but unrealistic for a big big part of people..

juice1304

I am entitled to do as I please as long as I don't hurt anyone else physically or financially in the process.

NegativeCreep

I dont think about what I'm entitled to have or do. I think about what I want to have or do and then get those things. I don't care if people think im selfish as long as I'm happy.

orestes

juice1304 wrote: »

I am entitled to do as I please as long as I don't hurt anyone else physically or financially in the process.

What about emotionally or psychologically?

ITS_A_BADGER

food, warmth,shelter, there was a pyramid chart of this when i was in school years ago cant remember it tho

hames

orestes wrote: »

You don't have any.

I disagree.

Take a baby born in any country you want to think of. Does that child, by virtue of having emerged a helpless individual from his mother's womb, inherently deserve anything that is good or beneficial?

If not, and he is abandoned, left to starve, grow cold and die, is it of any consequence?

If we are adequately repulsed by that idea, we must accept that this child has a universal entitlement.

An entitlement is a very serious thing. Who is responsible for securing it?

orestes

hames wrote: »

I disagree.

Take a baby born in any country you want to think of. Does that child, by virtue of having emerged a helpless individual from his mother's womb, inherently deserve anything that is good or beneficial?

If not, and he is abandoned, left to starve, grow cold and die, is it of any consequence?

You didn't ask if people deserve any entitlements, you asked if they have any. They are completely different questions.

Lenin Skynard

hames wrote: »

Should basic entitlements be human priority, before we start assuming higher entitlements, like specific social welfare incomes, job increments, pensions, and so on?

Aren't they already priority

Eve_Dublin

ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »

food, warmth,shelter, there was a pyramid chart of this when i was in school years ago cant remember it tho

Wasn't that Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs though? Needs are different to entitlements, aren't they?

Pottler

feck Entitlements. How much can you claw, scratch and bite your way to having. You aint entitled to nothing, except a death.

ITS_A_BADGER

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Wasn't that Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs though? Needs are different to entitlements, aren't they?

ah maybe that was it so

Seachmall

The only thing I'm entitled to are the basic rights provided to me by the Irish state, and even these are conditional.

Everything else I work for or take without entitlement.

hames

orestes wrote: »

You didn't ask if people deserve any entitlements, you asked if they have any. They are completely different questions.

No, you must have missed the "in your opinion" aspect of the question in the OP. Anyone can look up their actual entitlements in accordance with local law. Obviously that wasn't the issue. The question relates to people's opinions of what their inherent entitlements are as human beings.

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

Aren't they already priority

Not really. Plenty of children are born without adequate food and shelter and loving guardianship, and plenty of adults live in various forms of physical servitude that does not promote the common good.

If we recognize these as basic entitlements which we would expect for ourselves, then surely we have a duty, either individually or as a group, to secure them for others? After all, this entitlement is one that arises on foot of being a member of human society. It is just unbelievable that those of us who have secured all of these entitlements for ourselves would not believe that we, or society, owes the same as a matter of priority, on a universal basis.

Czarcasm

Entitlements are earned by fulfilling your responsibilities. I hear about entitled to this that and the other all the time, but hardly so much as a whisper from the same people about their responsibilities!

Itwasntme.

Interesting thread OP.

I figure I am entitled to the 30 basic human rights listed in The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I believe that it is everyone's duty/moral responsibility to ensure that our less fortunate neighbours are availed of the same rights.

Itwasntme.

Pottler wrote: »

feck Entitlements. How much can you claw, scratch and bite your way to having. You aint entitled to nothing, except a death.

Jaysus Pottler- harsh, much too harsh. Here, have a sweetie, it will coat those cynical edges or go give it a tug. I might just do that myself to relieve some of the anxiety these communism/entitlements threads are causing me .

amacca

Its not the reality

but I believe that if there was any justice in the world we should be entitled to be loved in return by those we love...it should be an entitlement

but that is not the reality of our existence............believing in entitlements means you believe in fairness....this existence is not fair or just, you have no entitlements

you can increase your chances of acquiring resources etc by going out and trying to get them and hoping that misfortune/circumstance etc does not reduce your chances

Miss Lockhart

On the one hand I think there problems of people feeling too entitled, but on the other hand the AH nobody owes you anything, you're entitled to nothing crap sickens me and is not representative of a society I wish to be part of. The whole suck it up, get over it, uncaring attitude dressed up as tough love routine.

It's a very complex topic but I think it's sad to see the low expectations of a standard of living expressed here regularly and the pushing of the whole be grateful, aren't you lucky agenda here.

orestes

hames wrote: »

No, you must have missed the "in your opinion" aspect of the question in the OP. Anyone can look up their actual entitlements in accordance with local law. Obviously that wasn't the issue. The question relates to people's opinions of what their inherent entitlements are as human beings.

Not really. Plenty of children are born without adequate food and shelter and loving guardianship, and plenty of adults live in various forms of physical servitude that does not promote the common good.

If we recognize these as basic entitlements which we would expect for ourselves, then surely we have a duty, either individually or as a group, to secure them for others? After all, this entitlement is one that arises on foot of being a member of human society. It is just unbelievable that those of us who have secured all of these entitlements for ourselves would not believe that we, or society, owes the same as a matter of priority, on a universal basis.

What gives us the right to decide that we consider entitlements should be forced upon everyone else? Who says our opinions, our our society, is right?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the idea of human rights, but you have to consider that taking an idea from individual to universal has massive problems as soon as you consider it relatively. Sacrificing the weak for the greater good of the whole, for example, would be perfectly acceptable in many societies and inherent to their social structure. If we force them to change that and their society fails, then we have destroyed their society by trying to force our values upon them.

hames

Pottler wrote: »

You aint entitled to nothing, except a death.

Lets see if that's true.

What would you do if you were out for a walk, and you saw a dying child starving in a ditch?

If you walked on by, why would that be unacceptable?

amacca

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

On the one hand I think there problems of people feeling too entitled, but on the other hand the AH nobody owes you anything, you're entitled to nothing crap sickens me and is not representative of a society I wish to be part of. The whole suck it up, get over it, uncaring attitude dressed up as tough love routine.

It's a very complex topic but I think it's sad to see the low expectations of a standard of living expressed here regularly and the pushing of the whole be grateful, aren't you lucky agenda here.

always hated that sort of limiting sh1te myself

sure who do you think you are aspiring to a nice home and a loving family and a good wage ...just be grateful you aren't a deaf dumb humourless quadriplegic leper I happen to know

hames

orestes wrote: »

What gives us the right to decide that we consider entitlements should be forced upon everyone else? Who says our opinions, our our society, is right?

Nobody, necessarily.

This is an individual question, to be answered by individuals.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the idea of human rights, but you have to consider that taking an idea from individual to universal has massive problems as soon as you consider it relatively. Sacrificing the weak for the greater good of the whole, for example, would be perfectly acceptable in many societies and inherent to their social structure. If we force them to change that and their society fails, then we have destroyed their society by trying to force our values upon them.

I'm not sure this makes a lot of sense.

The question is one of what human beings deserve inherently, without doing anything, simply because they have been born and are alive. I'm not saying this has to be very great, like a 4th level education and a plasma tv, but I feel there must be some very basic entitlements to be identified;more basic perhaps than the UN charter of human rights, whose lack of advancement to all people is a stain on this society and us as individuals pursuing our higher rights, desires and entitlements.

Pottler

hames wrote: »

Lets see if that's true.

What would you do if you were out for a walk, and you saw a dying child starving in a ditch?

If you walked on by, why would that be unacceptable?

And that has what exactly to do with entitlements? Anyway, I regard myself as entitled to nothing, I am responsible for me and mine and whatever I can make for them. There's loads of things I enjoy having the right and the ability to do, but don't regard them as entitlements. Who is this "uber mammy" that ensures you get all your "entitlements"?

Czarcasm

hames wrote: »

Lets see if that's true.

What would you do if you were out for a walk, and you saw a dying child starving in a ditch?

If you walked on by, why would that be unacceptable?

The child still wouldn't be entitled to anything, but would be dependent on your level of compassion to help them. This is distinct from their human rights though.

I thought this thread was about entitlements, not rights.

hames

Pottler wrote: »

And that has what exactly to do with entitlements?

With respect I think you realize your error now.

If it is morally reprehensible that you should walk on by a starving baby in a ditch, there is an implicit truth in that baby being 'deserving' of something beneficial; in your mind, you must have owed it something as a member of the human race. It had an entitlement. The point of the thread is to try and decipher the nature and extent of the entitlement.

Seachmall

Pottler wrote: »

And that has what exactly to do with entitlements?

Because if it's universally agreed that not helping the child is immoral (or amoral) it can be inferred that we're entitled to aid and assistance in times of need.

Pottler

hames wrote: »

With respect I think you realize your error now.

If it is morally reprehensible that you should walk on by a starving baby in a ditch, there is an implicit truth in that baby being 'deserving' of something beneficial; in your mind, you must have owed it something as a member of the human race. It had an entitlement. The point of the thread is to try and decipher the nature and extent of the entitlement.

Dream on beaacch. You're mixing up entitlements with morality. Sort yo sh1t out.

Seachmall

Pottler wrote: »

Dream on beaacch. You're mixing up entitlements with morality. Sort yo sh1t out.

Morals are the basis of our rights, and our rights are the basis of our entitlements.

hames

Pottler wrote: »

Dream on beaacch. You're mixing up entitlements with morality. Sort yo sh1t out.

No, it has already been stated clearly that the thread is not about legal entitlements in the sense of local laws.

The baby in question seems to have an inherent entitlement to a level of care just because he or she is a member of the human race.

You accept that, yes?

Czarcasm

Seachmall wrote: »

Morals are the basis of our rights, and our rights are the basis of our entitlements.

You're wrong there. Our fulfillment of our responsibilities is the basis of our entitlements.

hames

Czarcasm wrote: »

You're wrong there. Our fulfillment of our responsibilities is the basis of our entitlements.

List the responsibilities that this hypothetical baby must have fulfilled before he or she is deserving of aid.

We can then move onto the hypothetical drowning man, perhaps.

Seachmall

Czarcasm wrote: »

You're wrong there. Our fulfillment of our responsibilities is the basis of our entitlements.

That's a different entitlement that isn't relevant to the point being made.

orestes

hames wrote: »

Nobody, necessarily.

This is an individual question, to be answered by individuals.

I'm not sure this makes a lot of sense.

The question is one of what human beings deserve inherently, without doing anything, simply because they have been born and are alive. I'm not saying this has to be very great, like a 4th level education and a plasma tv, but I feel there must be some very basic entitlements to be identified;more basic perhaps than the UN charter of human rights, whose lack of advancement to all people is a stain on this society and us as individuals pursuing our higher rights, desires and entitlements.

Where do these inherent human rights come from? What grants them, ensures them, etc.?

hames wrote: »

With respect I think you realize your error now.

If it is morally reprehensible that you should walk on by a starving baby in a ditch, there is an implicit truth in that baby being 'deserving' of something beneficial; in your mind, you must have owed it something as a member of the human race. It had an entitlement. The point of the thread is to try and decipher the nature and extent of the entitlement.

Whether or not somebody thinks someone is "deserving" of something has nothing to do with whether or not they are entitled to it.

hames wrote: »

No, it has already been stated clearly that the thread is not about legal entitlements in the sense of local laws.

The baby in question seems to have an inherent entitlement to a level of care just because he or she is a member of the human race.

You accept that, yes?

Seems to you to have an inherent entitlement.

Seachmall wrote: »

Because if it's universally agreed that not helping the child is immoral (or amoral) it can be inferred that we're entitled to aid and assistance in times of need.

It's not universally agreed upon. It's not even agreed upon by everybody in this thread.

Pottler

If I'm lost in the desert, alone, miles from civilisation, what am I entitled to?

Is there a complaint form I can fill in if I don't then get my "entitlements"?

Entitlements are things that are conferred to the individual from a societal structure that leads to certain expectations. From the world itself, you're entitled to nothing, except death. Society conferrs rights and benefits, but they are artificial and far from guaranteed.

Seachmall

orestes wrote: »

It's not universally agreed upon. It's not even agreed upon by everybody in this thread.

People have made generic statements, I don't think anyone has stated it's perfectly acceptable to knowingly leave a child die in a ditch.

Pottler, is it acceptable?

hames

orestes wrote: »

Where do these inherent human rights come from? What grants them, ensures them, etc.?

I'm not sure how I could have said it any clearer - the question is a personal one, to be answered individually. It is not a call to action or an insistence upon a universal, legal covenant. It is simply a question of what any given individual believes that he might owe his fellow man, and from which his fellow man might therefore derive a moral entitlement.

Whether or not somebody thinks someone is "deserving" of something has nothing to do with whether or not they are entitled to it.

That's dubious, but just in case that is why I also said that one feels the baby is 'owed' something. If you feel you owe an individual something, then you feel that individual has a specific entitlement.

Seems to you to have an inherent entitlement.

What exactly does that even mean?

Mr. Incognito

Ah the age old chestnut.

Civil Servants- "entitled" to my sick days

TD's -"entitled" to my 4 State Pensions

Disabled - "Entitled" to my Bus pass.

___________________________________________

Inherently, Nature dictates you are entitled to diddly. 99.99999999% Species, kill, maim, eat and fight for everything they get. Mankind however is unique.

It has taken the opportunity to decide what we as a SOCIETY have determined should be a basic level of entitlement of the Individual and codified this.

So we say that people are entitled to live free of torture etc. We NEED this. Because we are inherently evolved like every other species, to be individually selfish to spread our own genetic code. And if that means selling guns to that starving african babies daddies and uncles to get ahead so be it.

I like that we have a threshold in theory that people should be entitled to live without the fear of torture or slavery or starvation.

I don't like that we cannot enforce it as we are individually selfish uncaring bastards.

hames

Pottler wrote: »

From the world itself, you're entitled to nothing, except death. Society conferrs rights and benefits, but they are artificial and far from guaranteed.

It was made clear in the first thread that this is not about what any given individual is owed from God, or the Universe.

The question is whether people feel they are entitled to any basic level of care by virtue of being members of the human race, and if so, to what magnitude.