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People before Profit - Communists?

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2

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    #32
    StinkyMunkey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭StinkyMunkey


    Communism would work fine if not for the human element.


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    #33
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users Posts: 14,715 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    StinkyMunkey wrote: »
    Communism would work fine if not for the human element.
    Ditto capitalism.


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    #34
    ScriptKittie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25 ✭ScriptKittie


    I'm not very political, but my housemate is a member of one of the groups that make up People before Profit.

    She's very passionate about the issue, but much of what she says doesn't make much sense.


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    #35
    carlmango11
    Registered Users Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭carlmango11


    The whole "if they just gave us their money it would solve poverty" thing is just ridiculous.

    Poverty isn't like a bill that we can pay and have it go away. If you were to "solve poverty" with a fixed amount of cash it'd probably only get worse. The population would just explode and there'll be a fresh, bigger batch of poverty.

    The answer is more complicated than throwing cash around. Poor countries need to fix their Governments and adapt better economic policies. And funny enough, and I'm sure PBP will hate to hear it, but capitalist countries are the rich ones, not the supposed Utopian, hand-holding societies dreamt of by these political parties.

    Obviously though I think we need restrictions and regulations in place to ensure things don't get out of hand. Definitely in the case of healthcare, education, banking regulations etc.


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    #36
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    To answer the OP's question, yes People Before Profit are Communists. Specifically, they are a particular brand of Communists called Trotskyists. The People Before Profit Alliance is just a front for the Troskyist Socialist Workers Party. The SWP could never get anyone elected, so in order to con the electorate, they came up with the People Before Profit Alliance to get their people onto councils and into the Dail.


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    #37
    Pottler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Pottler


    Money is like manure. If you spread it around evenly, it does a power of good. If you pile it up in a big heap, it stinks.


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    #38
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    We have these idiots in Australia as well. Loads of them, always organising marches to protest against the 'machine' while they tweet on their iphones, use facebook or organise meetings and wear the latest desinger hipster fashion. Not to mind they have one of the best standard of living anywhere on earth yet they still arent happy!

    Saw an interesting poster only yesterday. It was a poster commemorating and celebrating the 1917 Russian Revolution with the big slogan

    "When workers broke free" was the catch phrase

    The mind boggles! I wonder how free those workers were 20 years later then they were staving in thier millions or being sent off the the Gulags. Communists are deluded and socialists are only slightly less. They see the world in how they want it to be, not how it actually is. Many of them would have no issue, taking your house of you if they deemed that you were 'too successful'.


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    #39
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,414 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Messages like that in the OP are all very emotive and attention capturing but as with all these groups when you look under the covers to what they really are about you start to see they're full of nonsense.

    It's crusty lefties who enjoy a good protest engaging in a bit of ego massaging.

    There is nothing "new" about this "political party", more fool anyone who thinks that there is.
    latenia wrote: »
    Hard earned me hole-over half of the people in the top 100 owe their fortune to corruption, theft and inheritance.

    http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/
    I love how you list inheritance here, because of course if you built up a business worth 100 million you'd definitely not want to pass that on to your kids. God forbid you give your kids, and then their kids an easier life. :rolleyes:


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    #40
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Everyone is a socialist until they see their payslip. The only ones that remain socialists are the people who dont get payslips.


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    #41
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,414 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    BTW, there is another organisation in the world that could supposedly "stop world poverty".

    It is a huge wealth accumulator. It owns huge amounts of land. It is a massive financial power. In fact, it's probably the biggest / greatest in the world at the 3 things I just mentioned.

    It owns lots of priceless art.

    And it gets nice tax breaks from the Irish Government :)

    Can anyone name it? :P

    I wonder how many members of PBP donate to it.


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    #42
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Calling the grotesque state created/backed corporations that dominate the world 'capitalism' is a sick joke.


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    #43
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    awec wrote: »
    Can anyone name it? :P

    I wonder how many members of PBP donate to it.

    In Northern Ireland they're all atheists. All of the members I know in the south are too.


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    #44
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,414 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    In Northern Ireland they're all atheists. All of the members I know in the south are too.

    They must have an incredibly small number of members if you are able to say they are all atheists?

    Anyway, I look forward to hearing this group speak out against the church and it's vast wealth, but I suspect they won't. It's not quite as tasty. :)


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    #45
    hames
    Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭hames


    awec wrote: »
    They must have an incredibly small number of members if you are able to say they are all atheists?

    Anyway, I look forward to hearing this group speak out against the church and it's vast wealth, but I suspect they won't. It's not quite as tasty. :)

    I can think of no greater ideological enmity that exists on this island's political scene than between Sinn Féin and the Catholic Church. Their ideologies are more at odds with one another than any other party in the state, that should be widely known.

    Where did you get this idea?


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    #46
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    awec wrote: »
    They must have an incredibly small number of members if you are able to say they are all atheists?

    Anyway, I look forward to hearing this group speak out against the church and it's vast wealth, but I suspect they won't. It's not quite as tasty. :)

    Yeah, they do. Did you have the impression that they were huge or something? :confused: I didn't think anyone mistook them for a major organisation. There's a small band in Derry centred around that famous Catholic Eamonn McCann, another in Belfast currently headed by atheist Gerry Carroll, and one in mid Ulster that seems to consist solely of the great (non) Catholic Harry Hutchinson.

    Why would they speak out publically against the church in particular? Do you actually know anything about them at all or are they just dismissed "hurr, lefties" as per usual? They have a pretty clear objective and focus on just a few specific issues. Would you like them to sing and dance for you as well?


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    #47
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    hames wrote: »
    Where did you get this idea?

    Probably from the same shallow puddle of thought that reckoned they were donating to the Catholic church.


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    #48
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    spankysue wrote: »
    Is it just me, or is this a mental way to think? Why should people who've worked for and earned their money just have to hand it over because other people are suffering?

    A lot of the world's super rich are financial industry scum like our resident golden circle who got rich through manipulating the market - to the detriment of everyone else - and walking away with the cash in 2008. Not through hard work.

    Sure, among the super rich you have people like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, and musicians like U2 and so on who have indeed earned their money by working for it. Anyone who helmed the banking and financial industries in 2008 however is not in the same category. These people should be pursued to the ends of the earth, hauled in front of a judge to answer fraud allegations and if found guilty, have all of their assets stripped to try and pay for the havoc they've caused. :mad:


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    #49
    armchair fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 451 ✭✭armchair fusilier


    spankysue wrote: »
    Is it just me, or is this a mental way to think? Why should people who've worked for and earned their money just have to hand it over because other people are suffering?

    It's a pretty naive way of thinking imo, even if billionaries did hand over their hard earned money to countries that are experiencing extreme poverty, what are the chances of the people who are really suffering would even see a penny of it?

    In my eyes, this kind of people before profit thing is communism and communism only ever worked in theory.

    Things that I find mental are facts like...in the US C.E.O.'s salaries have increased 127 times faster over the past thirty years than workers salaries and executives are now gets paid 380 times more than the average worker does. That view doesn't make me communist though.


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    #50
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    A lot of the world's super rich are financial industry scum like our resident golden circle who got rich through manipulating the market - to the detriment of everyone else - and walking away with the cash in 2008. Not through hard work.

    Sure, among the super rich you have people like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, and musicians like U2 and so on who have indeed earned their money by working for it. Anyone who helmed the banking and financial industries in 2008 however is not in the same category. These people should be pursued to the ends of the earth, hauled in front of a judge to answer fraud allegations and if found guilty, have all of their assets stripped to try and pay for the havoc they've caused. :mad:

    Surely a WUM?


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    #51
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    jank wrote: »
    Surely a WUM?

    What? You're going to defend these cunts walking away from the ashes of corporations as millionaires?


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    #52
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    What? You're going to defend these cunts walking away from the ashes of corporations as millionaires?

    No, where am I defending that but to label everyone as scum is hyperbole.


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    #53
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    spankysue wrote: »
    It's a pretty naive way of thinking imo, even if billionaries did hand over their hard earned money to countries that are experiencing extreme poverty, what are the chances of the people who are really suffering would even see a penny of it?

    Likely not.

    The old saying of "give a man a fishing rod and teach him to use it, and he'll feed his family for life" looks brilliant in advertising, but in practice doesn't happen.

    What really happens is "give a man a fishing rod and teach him to use it, and he'll sell it the next day".


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    #54
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    armchair fusilier wrote: »
    Things that I find mental are facts like...in the US C.E.O.'s salaries have increased 127 times faster over the past thirty years than workers salaries and executives are now gets paid 380 times more than the average worker does. That view doesn't make me communist though.

    When you're on the top of a 50000 man pile, do you not think there should be a benefit from having the balls, intelligence and cunning to claw your way ahead of 49999 other people?

    Ok, so 380 times average seems extreme to you. Where would you place it?
    50? 100?

    It's just reward for being the big swinging dick, and having the gumption to get there. You cannot start penalising people for talent, else you end up with a brain and money drain, as is happening in France with their wealth tax.


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    #55
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,851 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    Everyone is a socialist until they see their payslip. The only ones that remain socialists are the people who dont get payslips.

    I know lots of socialists who get payslips

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #56
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,851 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    hames wrote: »
    I can think of no greater ideological enmity that exists on this island's political scene than between Sinn Féin and the Catholic Church. Their ideologies are more at odds with one another than any other party in the state, that should be widely known.

    Where did you get this idea?

    Seriously?- Sinn Fein has a number of high profile members who are very strong Catholics

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #57
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,414 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    hames wrote: »
    I can think of no greater ideological enmity that exists on this island's political scene than between Sinn Féin and the Catholic Church. Their ideologies are more at odds with one another than any other party in the state, that should be widely known.

    Where did you get this idea?
    :pac::pac::pac:

    I have never, ever seen Sinn Fein speak out against the church and it's enormous wealth. I have never, ever seen Sinn Fein call for that situation to be addressed.

    Nor have I ever seen them call attention to the tax breaks that the church enjoys.

    It's hard to pinpoint what Sinn Fein's ideologies are too. They call themselves a 32 county party but seem to have different policies on both sides of the border. Exactly what is their policy?


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    #58
    9959
    Registered Users Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭9959


    hames wrote: »
    I can think of no greater ideological enmity that exists on this island's political scene than between Sinn Féin and the Catholic Church. Their ideologies are more at odds with one another than any other party in the state, that should be widely known.

    Where did you get this idea?


    Off the top of my head I could name at least three Labour Party ministers who are 'Atheist', I'm sure there are many more on the back benches.

    In so far as you know, how many leading Sinn Fein politicians have declared themselves to be 'Atheist'?

    Ultimately, the above doesn't amount to a hill of beans, but it does at least give some indication as to your so-called 'enmity' issue, or otherwise.


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    #59
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    When you're on the top of a 50000 man pile, do you not think there should be a benefit from having the balls, intelligence and cunning to claw your way ahead of 49999 other people?
    Yes, because our leading bankers, developers and captains of industry have proven to be so intelligent and far-sighted in the past :rolleyes:


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    #60
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    Reekwind wrote: »
    far-sighted

    They must have been absent from "forecasting the future 101".

    :rolleyes:


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    #61
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    They must have been absent from "forecasting the future 101".

    :rolleyes:
    Apparently so. I'd have assumed that a the ability to make, or at least interpret, strategic forecasts was a core component of an executive's skill set. It's pretty integral to the whole concept of 'strategy' and 'leading', after all

    Unless you're suggesting that making even the most basic plans for the future (or being aware of the dangers in pursing extremely risky directions) is entirely beyond the realms of human capabilities? Even those superhuman bankers and developers who made Ireland Inc the success story that it is today


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