Test engine power,car over 14 years.

raher1

I have a 14 year old car and I was wondering how do you test the car engine to see if it producing the same power as before. It's for tax and insurance issue. No point paying for a 1.4 when's producing 1.2 power.

dgt

Dyno it

Toyotafanboi

so you're going to dispute your tax and insurance if it's putting out less than the manufacturers claimed power? tax is calculated on engine cc's, not engine power, so it can be as flat as a fart but it wont be changing

but yes, dyno it.

barney 20v

raher1 wrote: »

I have a 14 year old car and I was wondering how do you test the car engine to see if it producing the same power as before. It's for tax and insurance issue. No point paying for a 1.4 when's producing 1.2 power.

What has engine power got to do with tax?

raher1

Where to dyno?

langdang

raher1 wrote: »

I have a 14 year old car and I was wondering how do you test the car engine to see if it producing the same power as before. It's for tax and insurance issue. No point paying for a 1.4 when's producing 1.2 power.

are you gonna try and reclassify it? Or rejuvenate it? Or get rid of itt?

dgt

raher1 wrote: »

Where to dyno?

What part of the country are you in?

raher1

langdang wrote: »

are you gonna try and reclassify it? Or rejuvenate it? Or get rid of itt?

May get rid of if below power. If it can be rejuvenated yes,see how big the pocket is.

raher1

dgt wrote: »

What part of the country are you in?

Limerick

dgt

raher1 wrote: »

Limerick

If you are prepared to travel there's one in Kilworth

If TT is about maybe he can point in a better direction?

shooter88

raher1 wrote: »

I have a 14 year old car and I was wondering how do you test the car engine to see if it producing the same power as before. It's for tax and insurance issue. No point paying for a 1.4 when's producing 1.2 power.

It don't work like that its engine cc it could be a 5lt v8 putting out the same power as a 500cc and you still have to Tay 5lt tax..
Is anything wrong with the engine?use oil or water? Any smoke? Regular servicing?
I'm a firm beliver in "dont fix it if its not broke"

cletus

1.4 refers to the capacity of the engine, not the power output. 1.4 will always be 1.4

If the car is 14 yeats old you are probably down hp all right, but that has nothing to do with the tax system

*edit*shooter88 got in ahead of me

CiniO

It's actually interesting question...
If someone modified the engine by decreasing it's cubic capacity, and had engineers report to confirm it, would motortax be lowered?

raher1

cletus wrote: »

1.4 refers to the capacity of the engine, not the power output. 1.4 will always be 1.4

If the car is 14 yeats old you are probably down hp all right, but that has nothing to do with the tax system

*edit*shooter88 got in ahead of me

Just want know is it capacity what it should be.

Toyotafanboi

CiniO wrote: »

It's actually interesting question...
If someone modified the engine by decreasing it's cubic capacity, and had engineers report to confirm it, would motortax be lowered?

probably, after a struggle.

any work of that nature is most likely to cost more than you could ever save in tax id say

Sobanek

CiniO wrote: »

It's actually interesting question...
If someone modified the engine by decreasing it's cubic capacity, and had engineers report to confirm it, would motortax be lowered?

You see people do it all the time

BMW 528i - 2 litre on logbook

Big Nasty

raher1 wrote: »

Just want know is it capacity what it should be.

Definitely not at this stage - it's 14 years old, the block shrinks a little every day.

cletus

I presume you mean power output rather than capacity then. As was already said, dyno

@cinio, is that even possible? I know you can bore out cylinders to increase cc, can you decrease cylinder size?

Kenny Logins

CiniO wrote: »

It's actually interesting question...
If someone modified the engine by decreasing it's cubic capacity, and had engineers report to confirm it, would motortax be lowered?

I've had 1.6 fitted to a 1.3 car and paid the extra tax, but something tells me downsizing wouldn't be as easy..

raher1

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I've had 1.6 fitted to a 1.3 car and paid the extra tax, but something tells me downsizing wouldn't be as easy..

Why did you that?

knifey_spoonie

If you just want to measure the capacity, you could get a measuring jug, fill with water, remove spark plugs, pour the water into each of the cylinders, calculate the amount of water used and you have your capacity.

Toyotafanboi

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

If you just want to measure the capacity, you could get a measuring jug, fill with water, remove spark plugs, pour the water into each of the cylinders, calculate the amount of water used and you have your capacity.

or google it, check the tax disc etc, far less risky :pac:

JohnBoy26

Sobanek wrote: »

You see people do it all the time

BMW 528i - 2 litre on logbook

That's just putting a bigger engine in a 2liter BMW and then calling it a 528i, or not declaring it as a 528i in the first place.

JohnBoy26

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I've had 1.6 fitted to a 1.3 car and paid the extra tax, but something tells me downsizing wouldn't be as easy..

A well known Honda garage(not a main dealer) puts smaller capacity engines into Civics all the time and seeminly doesn't have any issue declaring them.

Marlow

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

That's just putting a bigger engine in a 2liter BMW and then calling it a 528i, or not declaring it as a 528i in the first place.

Or it's the VRO not having a clue. Like for example taking an E39 548i and calling it an E60 550i, but still having it being a 4.8l on the book

/M

Kenny Logins

raher1 wrote: »

Why did you that?

Do what? Declare the engine swap?

raher1

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Do what? Declare the engine swap?

Put the engine in? I say it was safer to declare the engine in case of accident.

Ronnie Beck

cletus wrote: »

I know you can bore out cylinders to increase cc, can you decrease cylinder size?

You could put in cylinder linings and under sized piston heads. May become common practice if the tax rates keep on the way they are .

Kenny Logins

raher1 wrote: »

Put the engine in? I say it was safer to declare the engine in case of accident.

Long story, but it was basically a case of 'do you want a 1600 or 1300?', so I chose 1600.

Esel

CiniO wrote: »

It's actually interesting question...
If someone modified the engine by decreasing its cubic capacity, and had engineer's report to confirm it, would motor tax be lowered?

Yes.

raher1

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Long story, but it was basically a case of 'do you want a 1600 or 1300?', so I chose 1600.

Did u alter the car to fit engine?

colm_mcm

I don't know if you've picked up on this, but your tax is based on the cubic capacity (cc) of you're engine, if it's taxed as 1.4 it means that it's above 1300cc and below 1400cc i.e the size of the 4(?) cylinders in the engine.

For example, a Rover 25 1.4 with 105hp is taxed the same as a VW Polo 1.4 with 60hp.

A Polo 1.4 with 60hp is taxed more than a Punto 1.2 with 60hp.

On a cc based system the power the car is producing doesn't have any bearing on the tax you pay.

Making the existing engine smaller isn't an option for you. replacing the existing engine with a smaller one is possible but not viable.

CJhaughey

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I've had 1.6 fitted to a 1.3 car and paid the extra tax, but something tells me downsizing wouldn't be as easy..

Depends on the engine family, many of the Toyota ZZ engines are identical bore the only differences are crank/piston/conrod.
Take a 1.8 and fit a 1.4 crank/pistons/conrod and you have a 1.4

jomoloney

raher1 wrote: »

Limerick

http://truckcarsales.goldenpages.ie/ms/ms/auto-diesel-services-ltd-auto-diesel-services-limerick/ms-90031103-p-3/

Mycroft H

I'm pretty sure the French have a system of car tax that takes into account the power of an engine and it's co2 emissions. Seems a bit fairer than our CC system

Kenny Logins

raher1 wrote: »

Did u alter the car to fit engine?

No. It was a beetle, you could probably do an engine swap on these on your lunch break with nothing more than a wrench and screwdriver.

Guy:Incognito

We're not talking about a performance track car here and your tax or insurance wont drop regardless of whether its now running with only 20 bhp. Spend the money on giving terraclean a go or something.

Mar4ix

actually , i was thinking about engine swap (in case my engine goes kaput, and repair is not economical) , from my toyota avensis mk1 '98 1.8 to 1.6 , as there is little or no 1.8 around (7A-FE) , but plenty 1.6 (4A-FE). I havent done proper research, but i keep thinking , that this is direct swap(because liftbacks '98 what i have, many have 1.6 engine in it) . was looking around in internet and asked such question in on toyota forum, but never got definite answer.

In case it is direct swap, what dockets have be filled, and declare reduced cc engine swap, get details change on logbook ?

raher1

colm_mcm wrote: »

I don't know if you've picked up on this, but your tax is based on the cubic capacity (cc) of you're engine, if it's taxed as 1.4 it means that it's above 1300cc and below 1400cc i.e the size of the 4(?) cylinders in the engine.

For example, a Rover 25 1.4 with 105hp is taxed the same as a VW Polo 1.4 with 60hp.

A Polo 1.4 with 60hp is taxed more than a Punto 1.2 with 60hp.

On a cc based system the power the car is producing doesn't have any bearing on the tax you pay.

Making the existing engine smaller isn't an option for you. replacing the existing engine with a smaller one is possible but not viable.

I just want to know is my car engine still producing it's engine capacity as it was new. No point paying for a 1.4 engine capacity if it's capacity or power/ hp is much less. They did it on top gear with some BMW s and other cars.

Jimdagym

raher1 wrote: »

I just want to know is my car engine still producing it's engine capacity as it was new. No point paying for a 1.4 engine capacity if it's capacity or power/ hp is much less. They did it on top gear with some BMW s and other cars.

Its capacity is still 1.4. A 1.4 litre engine is an engine that has a cylinder capacity (or volume, if thats easier for you) of 1.4 litres.I dont think you fully understand what you are talking about.
It has NOTHING to do with power output, and pre 08 had no bearing on it either.

Edit, the pre 08 bit is in reference to motor taxation.

Guy:Incognito

raher1 wrote: »

I just want to know is my car engine still producing it's engine capacity as it was new. No point paying for a 1.4 engine capacity if it's capacity or power/ hp is much less. They did it on top gear with some BMW s and other cars.

Unless you change the car you are going to be paying for a 1.4 regardless.

Its probably a safe bet that its lost a few bhp as all cars will afaik. So even if you changed , the next car probably wont have its full compliment either.

A proper service and good maintenance is a better way to spend money. Sure it probably only had about 65 bhp to begin with did it not?

hi_im_fil

Capacity will always be the same. Power may not, but you won't get cheaper tax/insurance because of this

A compression test results performed by someone knowledgeable would be preferable to a dyno run for the OP me thinks

CiniO

I think if engine didn't produce similar power compared to when new, then there would be no chance to pass NCT emission test.
Engines don't loose power just like that for no reason when old.

CJhaughey

Capacity is the swept volume inside the cylinders this doesn't change over the life of an engine.

Hp is the power the engine develops at a certain revs some engines produce more than others of the same capacity.
depending on many factors including the state of tune the engine is in.
for example a 1.4 litre car engine in a Corolla might be declared as 95hp from new.
In reality it might make 90hp or less.
The state of tune it is in is designed for long life and economy with performance as a lesser consideration.
A Kawasaki ZZR1400 has a 1.4 litre engine designed for horsepower first and economy last. It should produces around 190hp in stock form.
These engines are both the same capacity but totally different in their design goals.
No insurance company is going to change your premium based on a dyno figure, the risk is calculated from your age and driving history, and the risk of the car being stolen or crashed.
No matter if your car is producing 1/2 the hp of when it was new it won't be any cheaper to insure.

CiniO

BX 19 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the French have a system of car tax that takes into account the power of an engine and it's co2 emissions. Seems a bit fairer than our CC system

I'm pretty sure that in France there is no such thing as motortax (or cartax, roadtax, etc.)
All you need is insurance and valid test to have your car legal.

Marlow

CiniO wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that in France there is no such thing as motortax (or cartax, roadtax, etc.)
All you need is insurance and valid test to have your car legal.

Yep. I think all they have is tollroads and otherwise the motor tax is paid over the fuel. The same applies to Poland.

/M

Mar4ix

Also, now in Latvia(i think two years now ... before that was only cc based) , road tax calculated based on cars engine size, full weight and power (in kw) .... i think thats it. those who was lucky get register car before that, they have to pay less tax, like for my jeep grand cherokee WJ (petrol 4.7, v8) , in log book only full weight and engine size, from which road tax calculated, no power figure in logbook, so i am paying less tax.... around 200 euro, instead something 450 euro if all information would be in logbook.

EDIT: roadtax must be paid in full while getting car tested, so when pay test fee, they will charge for road tax also. no any splitting. 12 months the day, of test , regardless , pass or fail.

some fun, my father was doing previous car test in first week of januarry, and then, he went for test at the end of december, and he passed test, and he got test from time when his old one finishes, so he didnt pay road tax(because he did the test in current year, which he paid already) for a whole year, but next time, he had to pay for two years ... previous year, and next year. ('93 vw golf, 1.8 petrol (not GTI) , 80 ish euro tax for a year)

Edwardius

Mar4ix wrote: »

actually , i was thinking about engine swap (in case my engine goes kaput, and repair is not economical) , from my toyota avensis mk1 '98 1.8 to 1.6 , as there is little or no 1.8 around (7A-FE) , but plenty 1.6 (4A-FE). I havent done proper research, but i keep thinking , that this is direct swap(because liftbacks '98 what i have, many have 1.6 engine in it) . was looking around in internet and asked such question in on toyota forum, but never got definite answer.

In case it is direct swap, what dockets have be filled, and declare reduced cc engine swap, get details change on logbook ?

I think the only difference is the stroke length. I looked into doing the opposite a while back and it seems to be a direct swap.

Be warned, the 4A is slow!

ION08

raher1 wrote: »

I just want to know is my car engine still producing it's engine capacity as it was new. No point paying for a 1.4 engine capacity if it's capacity or power/ hp is much less. They did it on top gear with some BMW s and other cars.

OP im sorry but you really have your wires crossed and it's clear you dont really understand what you are talking about!

your cars capacity doesnt change!! Your 1.4 is still a 1.4.

1.4 is the size of your engine, this is physical volume, it doesnt change over time.

You are mixing this up with the power output of your car, which most likely is lower now than when it left tge factory but this has nothing to do with motor tax or your "1.4" engine size.

It's like asking, my car had 4 door when it was new, is there any test i can do to see if it still has 4 doors or if it lost 2 over time.

dmc17

ION08 wrote: »

my car had 4 door when it was new, is there any test i can do to see if it still has 4 doors or if it lost 2 over time.

You could just do a visual inspection