Aikido v Judo

HarrisonLennon

Hey folks,

Whilst remaining respectful to both arts.

Which would you recomend taking up. I'm going to start one.

And from looking around Aikido seems to be more of an act. If the partner in training circumstances doesn't roll with moves they seem useless. But I'm not ruling it out.

thegreatiam

The one you enjoy most.

It makes no difference knowing our opinion of judo or aikido if you do not like it.

Try them both for a few weeks and stick with the one you enjoy.

HammerHeadGym

Depends on your goals. I have done about the same amount of both and found my aikido parteners exceptionally compliant throughout, wheras my judo partners were only compliant during the learning time, not practise time.

HarrisonLennon

thegreatiam wrote: »

The one you enjoy most.

It makes no difference knowing our opinion of judo or aikido if you do not like it.

Try them both for a few weeks and stick with the one you enjoy.

That's a fair point, it is.

But I don't want to encounter a real situation and put Aikido into practise and the guy stands there laughing while I scream at him "ROLL WITH MY MOVES"

HarrisonLennon

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

Depends on your goals. I have done about the same amount of both and found my aikido parteners exceptionally compliant throughout, wheras my judo partners were only compliant during the learning time, not practise time.

Does that mean you didn't like the competitiveness of judo. But prefer the laid back Aikido vibe

thegreatiam

HarrisonLennon wrote: »

That's a fair point, it is.

But I don't want to encounter a real situation and put Aikido into practise and the guy stands there laughing while I scream at him "ROLL WITH MY MOVES"

If you are worried about a real situation then you should look into athletics, and neuro-linguistic programming and situational awareness. As these will give you skills to avoid a fight which is the best form of self defense.

but realistically speaking, how likely is it that you will be in a 'situation' that talking or running cant solve?

If you want to learn a martial art then both are fair game. both will make you fitter, stronger and more physically confident thereby avoiding a fight situation.

as with most martial arts, when you get good enough to reliably and safely use it in a fight you will know you dont actually need it as a smile and a friendly word will resolve the situation better.

if you are likely to get mugged then just hand over your wallet, no matter how good a martial artist you are you wont want to risk a stabbing.

failing that. muay thai/boxing/judo in that order.

HarrisonLennon

Another thing is, I can't find a single example of Aikido being using in sparring or a competition. It's all one guy acting one guy doing the moves. Maybe I'm missing the point with Aikido. Is there ever a point in learning the art where you actualy spar each other to declare a winner.

thegreatiam

seriously its not a decision someone else can make for you.

If you want to do a martial art then either is fine.

If you want to learn to fight then youll need to go fight people.

all the training in the world and you'll still prefer to avoid a fight then be in one.

Unless you have competitive ambitions in a sport then make you decision on what you enjoy, cos if you dont enjoy it, you wont get good at it, aand you wont learn any thing.

HarrisonLennon

thegreatiam wrote: »

seriously its not a decision someone else can make for you.

If you want to do a martial art then either is fine.

If you want to learn to fight then youll need to go fight people.

all the training in the world and you'll still prefer to avoid a fight then be in one.

Unless you have competitive ambitions in a sport then make you decision on what you enjoy, cos if you dont enjoy it, you wont get good at it, aand you wont learn any thing.

It seems your really intent on avoiding a fight here. Relax man.. Noones going to attack you

I'm just enquiring about Aikido as an art.

thegreatiam

HarrisonLennon wrote: »

It seems your really intent on avoiding a fight here. Relax man.. Noones going to attack you

I'm just enquiring about Aikido as an art.

Well, your making your decision based on wanting to be in a fight.

Its what you enjoy that is the most important.

Seems you dont want to do aikido, so id suggest judo. Id also suggest looking into other sports, or an MMA gym

Peetrik

HarrisonLennon wrote: »

Hey folks,

Whilst remaining respectful to both arts.

Which would you recomend taking up.

Ok I'll bite. I've never tried either personally but if I was forced to pick between the two I'd do Judo.
I love that you have to compete for later belts plus they seem to have their heads screwed on as regards to the importance of competition.

As everyone said it'll boil down to whichever you like best as thats the one you'll keep going to but if it was me I'd try Judo first.

HarrisonLennon

Peetrik wrote: »

Ok I'll bite. I've never tried either personally but if I was forced to pick between the two I'd do Judo.
I love that you have to compete for later belts plus they seem to have their heads screwed on as regards to the importance of competition.

As everyone said it'll boil down to whichever you like best as thats the one you'll keep going to but if it was me I'd try Judo first.

Interesting RE the belts.

Thanks man..

HarrisonLennon

thegreatiam wrote: »

Well, your making your decision based on wanting to be in a fight.

Its what you enjoy that is the most important.

Seems you dont want to do aikido, so id suggest judo. Id also suggest looking into other sports, or an MMA gym

Yeah it seems that way, with Aikido.
I have a class next week. I'll go along and try it at least.

thegreatiam

you might like it.

kumate_champ07

HarrisonLennon wrote: »

Another thing is, I can't find a single example of Aikido being using in sparring or a competition. It's all one guy acting one guy doing the moves. Maybe I'm missing the point with Aikido. Is there ever a point in learning the art where you actualy spar each other to declare a winner.

Aikido is more of a philosophy whereas Judo is a sport.

Aikido deals with a situation where you are being charged at by an attacker and you neutralize the attack as quickly as possible ie in 1 move.

both arts share the same origin from the Japanese Samurai

Zen65

HarrisonLennon wrote: »

And from looking around Aikido seems to be more of an act. If the partner in training circumstances doesn't roll with moves they seem useless.

Let me preface my comments by saying I don't practice Aikido nor Judo, though I have great respect for both arts and have watched many hours of training of each.

Strictly speaking the partner in Aikido is not rolling for your benefit, but for his. The roll is intended to allow you to apply a lock or control (typically to his arm) from which he rolls out in order to avoid injury. The training approach seems to be to teach the defender to apply a lock or control to an attack, using the attacker's initial movement as the energy for the defence.

That said, the training method then looks a bit like a dance. However if the instruction is good, training in Aikido is very beneficial for your coordination and balance, which is very useful in a fighting situation. With enough time and diligent practice, a student can arrive at a George Segal level of competence and will be proficient in self-defence situations.

Judo is trained in a less contrived manner. The Judoka trains to wrestle all the way to submission, with a far greater degree of resistance practised right from the start. Application from the learning seems faster (based on my own observation only) so the self-defence element would appear to be more readily achieved.

However as others have said, taking up a MA just for the self-defence aspect is a questionable action. You need to be enjoying it or you will never reach a level of proficiency. Moreover, a good sprinting ability is likely to be equally useful for self-defence, and perhaps even more so as it removes the temptation to be foolish and wait for the fighting to start!

Z

arybvtcw0eolkf

I've never trained Aikido so I can't comment on it.

However if I can suggest an alternative to the OP.

If competition isn't your thing, and its not for everyone so don't be shy about saying it then have you considered either Japanese Jiu Jitsu or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?.

Both have elements of Judo without the need to compete (fight) for your grades, although you will have to show a high level of competency in a Brazilian JJ club to be promoted through the belts.

Personally speaking my choice between either would be BJJ.

Dyr

HarrisonLennon wrote: »

Another thing is, I can't find a single example of Aikido being using in sparring or a competition. It's all one guy acting one guy doing the moves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTt8YwPaPCY

Morph the Cat

Bambi wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTt8YwPaPCY

Judo, OP.

I've trained in Judo and MMA for years now. Only recently, a friend of mine who does Aikido came down with me for a private sparring session (I had the keys to the gym, so we decided to goof around on a Saturday night), and everything he knew was useless and not applicable to sparring or any sort of combat. I know he's been doing it around 3+ years at least, but it's still hard to say what level he's at (maybe he's good at Aikido - I don't know) because nothing actually worked when he tried to apply it. We started sparring some standup (without kicks first) and he started coming at me with his hands down in a Steven Seagal stance. So I jabbed him in the nose lightly & told him to put his hands up, and that they're no use to him stretched out at chest level. He stopped sparring for a few mins while he got over the shock of getting "hit" in the nose. The whole experience was weird TBH - I got him in a tight Muay Thai clinch and he tapped because he felt suffocated & restrained - he actually thought that was a submission. He could have just been a wuss or something too, but seriously - we couldn’t even get a session going because he stopped every time I tapped his face or even put some pressure on him.

I don't want to be mean, but the guy had never done any contact sparring (i.e. where your opponent doesn't co-operate) in his 3+ years of Aikido classes, and was really tense when trying to spar - a very nervous energy, because we were actually hitting each other for real (albeit lightly, and with pads). He'd never even been hit in the face before, he didn't know what covers were (he stood like this), and he tried to catch EVERY low kick I threw. I mean, these are just really really basic things in any sort of fight.

And the above video looks ridiculous TBH.

Dyr

[QUOTE=Morph the Cat;83264939
And the above video looks ridiculous TBH.[/QUOTE]

Most of it does. That said, I watched one of the olympic finals in the judo with a mate of mine. Three minutes of two athletes grabbing at each other like oul wans wasn't much better. Easy to get the wrong impression from a casual viwieng innit?

Morph the Cat

Bambi wrote: »

Easy to get the wrong impression from a casual viwieng innit?

Sure, to an average viewer - but not if you train and know what they're doing; how momentum works, etc. I can tell the difference between good and bad grappling. Those aikido throws are terrible.

This is how effective it is: http://youtu.be/AssByvGVx6s

And this Judo guy is being kind to him IMO, because he doesn't want to embarrass him. He actually shows the Aikido techniques some "respect" at 00:58, so as not to completely wipe the guy out and embarrass him too much - he could have taken him down any time he wanted. The Aikido guy had nothing for him - and I'd say he knew that himself once he felt the grip power on his lapels. I wonder what the excuses were that he was making at the end...

Dyr

Morph the Cat wrote: »

Sure, to an average viewer - but not if you train and know what they're doing

Precisley, now apply the same logic to your own comments and you'll get the point.

I trained in that style of aikido years and years ago. I get the point of what they're trying to achieve in that clip. You are the average viewer in this instance, grappling doesn't come into it.

Morph the Cat

Bambi wrote: »

Precisley, now apply the same logic to your own comments and you'll get the point.

Okay, I get your point.

The bottom line is that I've never personally seen anything in Aikido that would work in a real fight situation. All these arm twists & deflections don't work - because real punches are quick, they retract, and they have power; real punches are not timed to land in an exact position so someone can grab it and pull you around by the arm so you can do a flip-bump for them. And a fully resisting opponent is awkward too.

Dyr

aikido doesn't work as a fighting system IMO, a lot of aikido people would probably say its not supposed to.

Some of it can be useful in self defence, I've seen it used. Mainly because people tend to fully commit to punches and grabs in the real world

josip

I did aikido for a few years in college. We usually trained at the same time as the judo people were training. By the 2nd year I was defintely more physically confident on a couple of occasions messing with my mates when the application of some basic grips or locks was sufficient to end the joust. I was always concerned how it would work in a real world situation however. Aikido seemed to me that if you didn't get your grip/throw spot on the first time you were then into a grappling situation, for which you would need to be a more experienced aikido practioner than me in order to extricate yourself. Even if you did manage to initially immobilise an assailant, you were then in a position from which it was not straightforward to escape since you were both close together and unless you break the attacker's wrist or similar, they are now more wary if they continue the assault. I think a box in the nose or a kick in the quare place followed by legging it would have been more effective. The one exception would have been if a "jo" or stick was to hand. In that case I would have been very confident of immobilising an attacker for a longer period, and knowing I had a plan B move, plan C move etc.

We usually trained at the same time as the judo club and their training was much more combative and looked more useful even at a beginner level to "fight" situations. At least once each session they, especially their sensei, would be openly laughing and making fun of some of the moves we were practicing. Their training sessions were much more aggressive and I can recall people taking a break with bloody noses on more than one occasion.

Peetrik

josip wrote: »

Their training sessions were much more aggressive and I can recall people taking a break with bloody noses on more than one occasion.

I would be very much under the impression that if minor injuries (bloody noses, broken toes, dead legs etc) aren't a very regular occurrence then no one is trying hard enough to hit each other.

If no one is actually trying to hit you then you're not learning how to fight.

EnjoyChoke

Keagan Dazzling Skipper wrote: »

Both have elements of Judo without the need to compete (fight) for your grades, although you will have to show a high level of competency in a Brazilian JJ club to be promoted through the belts.

Personally speaking my choice between either would be BJJ.

To clarify, you fight for every grade in BJJ, up to and including Black belt.

arybvtcw0eolkf

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

To clarify, you fight for every grade in BJJ, up to and including Black belt.

Since when?.

EnjoyChoke

Keagan Dazzling Skipper wrote: »

Since when?.

C. 1917.

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

C. 1917.

You're wrong, Loads of BJJ lads get graded without ever competing.

arybvtcw0eolkf

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

C. 1917.

So how does it work?.

And don't say training hours or seminars are fighting please. Almost every BJJ player I know got their belts after a seminar, and a lot I know have never competed.

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

You're wrong, Loads of BJJ lads get graded without ever competing.

I said fight. You don't get grades in BJJ without fighting for them.

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

I said fight. You don't get grades in BJJ without fighting for them.

again, you're wrong, Rolling in a grading class ain't fighting!!

And i have seen many get graded without doing rolling, Coaches can grade because they feel their students are worthy.

EnjoyChoke

Keagan Dazzling Skipper wrote: »

So how does it work?.

And don't say training hours or seminars are fighting please. Almost every BJJ player I know got their belts after a seminar, and a lot I know have never competed.

Are you saying that unless a ref is involved it doesn't count?
One of the best BJJ fighters I know has never been involved in a match with a ref. he can and does fight every week to a high level. The entire art is built around the principle of fighting and not nessesarily in a sport Jiu-Jitsu context. Maybe it's IBJJF, maybe it's ADCC, maybe it's MMA, maybe it's at a club level. You spend hours upon hours fighting for each grade, unlike Japanese Jiu-Jitsu where you do not.

Dyr

I think people have different definitions of what "fight" means in this context

arybvtcw0eolkf

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

One of the best BJJ fighters I know has never been involved in a match with a ref. he can and does fight every week to a high level.

'Player'.. You know someone who plays BJJ to a high level.

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

again, you're wrong, Rolling in a grading class ain't fighting!!

And i have seen many get graded without doing rolling, Coaches can grade because they feel their students are worthy.

And how, in a context other than being good enough at fighting thought the art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, could a coach find a student worthy?

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

And how, in a context other than being good enough at fighting thought the art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, could a coach find a student worthy?

Fighting has winners and losers, Rolling just has 2 people helping/sparring with each other-what you are referring to is Sparring and not fighting.

Otherwise all arts that just grade without competing could claim the same because they spar.

EnjoyChoke

Keagan Dazzling Skipper wrote: »

'Player'.. You know someone who plays BJJ to a high level.

Fighter

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

Fighting has winners and losers, Rolling just has 2 people helping/sparring with each other-what you are referring to is Sparring and not fighting.

Otherwise all arts that just grade without competing could claim the same because they spar.

I think we have very different ideas about what's involved in BJJ.
I'll leave it there.

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

I think we have very different ideas about what's involved in BJJ.
I'll leave it there.

Yeah, you think training is fighting, I don't-Simples!!

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

Yeah, you think training is fighting, I don't-Simples!!

Don't annoy me Paul.

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Don't annoy me Paul.

Ha Ha, If you can't take the truth you'll often be annoyed!

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

Ha Ha, If you can't take the truth you'll often be annoyed!

Maybe you're just used to a softer style. That's ok, not so good for practical results, but if it rocks you boat, why not.

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Maybe you're just used to a softer style. That's ok, not so good for practical results, but if it rocks you boat, why not.

I graded through Andy's place who would be known for having a tough style of BJJ, We simply view the sport differently Tom, I view training as training and competition as fighting.

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

I graded through Andy's place who would be known for having a tough style of BJJ, We simply view the sport differently Tom, I view training as training and competition as fighting.

Joking aside, I think you've missed what I'm trying to say about grading. Answer my original question:

"how, in a context other than being good enough at fighting thought the art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, could a coach find a student worthy?"

arybvtcw0eolkf

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Don't annoy me Paul.

Don't start falling out with people over a little bit of craic on an internet discussion forum, you're around long enough to know that no one wins these things (arguments).

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Joking aside, I think you've missed what I'm trying to say about grading. Answer my original question:

"how, in a context other than being good enough at fighting thought the art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, could a coach find a student worthy?"

I'd simply say that the coach see's that the student can apply techniques against a resisting partner, still wouldn't call it fighting, Just like I wouldn't call MMA or Boxing sparring Fighting.

EnjoyChoke

Keagan Dazzling Skipper wrote: »

Don't start falling out with people over a little bit of craic on an internet discussion forum, you're around long enough to know that no one wins these things (arguments).

I'm not taking it seriously at all. All a bit of banter.

arybvtcw0eolkf

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

I'm not taking it seriously at all. All a bit of banter.

Cool, saves me pulling guard on ya



</grand just to see a bit of activity in here for a change!.>

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

I'd simply say that the coach see's that the student can apply techniques against a resisting partner, still wouldn't call it fighting, Just like I wouldn't call MMA or Boxing sparring Fighting.

But if someone had to spar 100% in order to get graded in boxing, you'd probably be comfortable enough saying they had to fight for their grade.