€15M berth facility to facilitate cruise liners at Dunlaoghaire Harbour. .

Run_to_da_hills

Read this in the Gazette, Stakeholder group reveal plans to bring major ships right into Dunlaoghaire Harbour.

"Plans are underway to open up Dunlaoghaire Harbour to accomodate the worlds largest cruise liners after a stakeholder group, which includes Dunlaoghaire Rathdown Council and Dunlaoghaire Harbour Company, revealed their intention to develop a €15 million berthing facility.

At present neither Dublin Bay nor Dunlaoghaire Harbour can facilitate such large vessels, and have to rely on tenders and smaller boats to bring passengers ashore".

From someone that comes from the area this can only be a good move, bringing some life into the town and its almost dead shopping center. In the past ferry passengers tend to be transient and only use Dunlaoghaire as a direct pass through. Perhaps we could also eventually see the reopening of the Carlisle station to allow trains close proximity to cruise liners.

http://issuu.com/robheigh/docs/dun_laoghaire_772d1ef38031ca?mode=embed&layout=http%3A%2F%2Fskin.issuu.com%2Fv%2Flight%2Flayout.xml&showFlipBtn=true

Amirani

Thread title should say €15 million.

Gran Hermano

NiallSparky wrote: »

Thread title should say €15 million.

Was thinking it was pretty cheap at 15 quid

Cookie_Monster

Why not Dublin Port, when you consider what the CC and Dun Laoghaire have to offer, it's a no brainer to spend the money on Dublin Port rather than the ghost port in the ghost town that DL has become.

Mr Simpson

Aren't they planning on building a new cruise ship terminal at Dublin Port? Building it at Dun Laoighaire doesn't make sense to me tbh, too far from the city

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why not Dublin Port, when you consider what the CC and Dun Laoghaire have to offer, it's a no brainer to spend the money on Dublin Port rather than the ghost port in the ghost town that DL has become.

Dunlaoghaire port would be far more aesthetically pleasing than Dublin Docks.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Dunlaoghaire port would be far more aesthetically pleasing than Dublin Docks.

Southsider snobbery.

Perhaps they may want to nip over to Holyhead for a daytrip?

ted1

As someone brought up in the tourism business I Can twell this comes down to revenue and the cost per berth a premium can be charged for docking in Kingstown and a price for day trips. DL offers better tide time and possibly better debarkng facilities it depends on the deal done locally. I have seen a master plan which enshrines DL As a pleasure port and this encourages pleasure activity such as rowing and sailing and contradicts cruises.

ted1

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Southsider snobbery.

Perhaps they may want to nip over to Holyhead for a daytrip?

Truthfully DL offers far more than a commercial port could

Larbre34

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why not Dublin Port, when you consider what the CC and Dun Laoghaire have to offer, it's a no brainer to spend the money on Dublin Port rather than the ghost port in the ghost town that DL has become.

Dublin Port - industrial, grim, already congested, disconnected from the City

Dun Laoghaire Harbour - aesthetic, historical, multiple onward transport connections (DART, toll free access to M50, tons of bus parking), dormant modern terminal facilities, the investment would have a far more beneficial outcome somewhere like Dun Laoghaire where the immediate spend in the town would be noticeable and significant and embraced rather than dissipated in the City Centre. The tourists could still easily access the City.

The whole focus of the town as a cruise port would enhance the quality of the retail offerings and restaurants, which would in turn attract more Irish to come back to rediscover Dun Laoghaire, the snowball effect of which could deliver major renewal to the town

Now, I would be the first to agree that Dun Laoghaire is a bit frayed around the edges, and is the biggest advertisment for NIMBYism on the face of Planet, however I would rather see this investment tried than not. No doubt there will be plenty of voices against 1000ft liners arriving to take over the harbour for days at a time, and Ive seen in Dubrovnik where the locals had to pass laws to limit the number of ship arrivals as the city was too congested with people in the summer months, however that is a good problem to have. €15m is very little for the potential benefits, if the project is managed and promoted correctly. When the USS JFK and liner QE2 visited previously the place was absolutely mobbed, and they didnt even dock in the Harbour. 10 or 15 cruise visits a year by full sized modern ships equates to about €70 million in disposable income walking through the town every summer, why wouldnt you jump on that?

Run_to_da_hills

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Southsider snobbery.

Perhaps they may want to nip over to Holyhead for a daytrip?

No, Dublin Port is an industrial port with the majority of facilities designed for the importation and trafficking of container goods or car ferry transport. Transporting up to 5000 foot passengers to the city center in one go would be a real logistics headache. That alone would require 60 to 70 coaches. :eek:

You cannot get anywhere from the Docks without having to take a bus. The nearest regular public transport would be the Luas at the Point Depot and that's probably about a mile at least.

At least in Dunlaoghaire passengers can disperse, walk up to the Dart Station, or stroll about Dunlaoghaire. Buses are also in close proximity.

markpb

MarkMc wrote: »

Aren't they planning on building a new cruise ship terminal at Dublin Port? Building it at Dun Laoighaire doesn't make sense to me tbh, too far from the city

They're planning on moving the current cruise line terminal closer to the city instead of having it at the edge of the port where it is now.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Dunlaoghaire port would be far more aesthetically pleasing than Dublin Docks.

This is true and more important that you'd think.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Dun Laoghaire Harbour - aesthetic, historical, multiple onward transport connections (DART, toll free access to M50, tons of bus parking)

I'm not sure how useful most of those facilities would be. People on cruise ships typically have left their cars at home so the M50 is completely irrelevant. Those getting bus tours arranged by the cruise line will want to be close to the city, not the M50. There is already plenty of space in Dublin Port for the tour buses - as far as I know it's not struggling.

Personally, I think Dublin Port is a better option primarily because people on a tour to Ireland will, predominantly, want to take tours of Dublin, not walk around a pretty, suburban town. I live near Dun Laoghaire, I like Dun Laoghaire, I've spent plenty of weekends there but if I was going on holidays to Ireland, I've have zero interest in hanging around there all day. I've spent time in port towns like Civitaveccia which were very pretty but utterly boring as a tourist.

If I had unlimited money, I'd find a way to bring mid-sized cruise ships up the Liffey and as far into the city centre as possible. That way tourists get to sail right into the city, be close to the tourist attractions and close to public transport (for those that want to do their own thing). My favourite cities to cruise to are those that do exactly that.

MurdyWurdy

I lived in Wellington for a few years where cruise ships would regularly dock. It was great having them around, Wellington is not the busiest city in the world and it always had a nice bustle around it on cruise days. I think it would be fantastic for Dun Laoghaire and a much nicer place to stop then the docks in Dublin - they're in the middle of nowhere. DL has great train and bus links.

Although, in saying that, from seeing cruises docking regularly the patrons tend to be on average, a lot more elderly so in Wellington they had buses booked through the Wellington equivalent of Dublin Bus (Go Wellington) to bring them up to the main shopping areas etc even though it was within walking distance. I'd imagine that they would do the same here. I'm not sure what percentage of passengers would use the public transport.

Larbre34

markpb wrote: »

T
I'm not sure how useful most of those facilities would be. People on cruise ships typically have left their cars at home so the M50 is completely irrelevant. Those getting bus tours arranged by the cruise line will want to be close to the city, not the M50. .

Have they really? :rolleyes:

Dun Laoghaire's strategy to attract cruise ships has already hung its hat on being a good jump off point for bus tours to Wicklow and the Barrow/Nore area as well as for Golf excursions at courses in Kildare and Meath, without having to negotiate City traffic, so quick access to the M50 and onward national road network is entirely relevant.

Tow

EUR15M is not too much. Did they (sorry we the Irish tax payer) not spend IEP12M back in the day to custom build the HSS berth? It can only be used for Stena HSSs, of which I believe the Explorer is the only one (just about) left running after her sister ship got impounded for for diesel smuggling.

Larbre34

Tow wrote: »

after her sister ship got impounded for for diesel smuggling.

Did it? Classic.

Glencarraig

I can see it now, every scumbag in Dun Laoghaire will converge on the cruise liner berth to prey on the unsuspecting travellers. Muggings, knife threats, robbery and general nastiness will be rife. I can see the pawn shops and the "cash for gold" shops being busy.

markpb

Glencarraig wrote: »

I can see it now, every scumbag in Dun Laoghaire will converge on the cruise liner berth to prey on the unsuspecting travellers. Muggings, knife threats, robbery and general nastiness will be rife. I can see the pawn shops and the "cash for gold" shops being busy.

What a load of tripe. You think there isn't crime in Dublin, where plenty of cruise lines stop already? Or in Naples or Rome which are legendary for street crime?

Glencarraig

markpb wrote: »

What a load of tripe. You think there isn't crime in Dublin, where plenty of cruise lines stop already? Or in Naples or Rome which are legendary for street crime?

Never once suggested that other cruise stops dont have problems, the thread is about Dun Laoghaire, thats what I was commenting on. Perhaps when they are building the new berth they could make a little space for a new methadone clinic so the druggies and scumbags that populate Dun Laoghaire wouldn't have too far to travel to work !!

zagmund

I think it would be good for Dun Laoghaire and would love to see it even though it would likely mean swarms of buses going by my house on cruise days. I've seen many poor unfortunates trying to walk out of Dublin port from cruise ships, looking very, very disconsolate indeed. Most of them pass me by in buses called "Cruise - Dublin - bus 23" and the likes, but you would be surprised how many of them try to walk out for one reason or another.

At least in DL you have the option of shops, cafes, parks, etc . . . within a few minutes walk for those that do want to walk. For those that want to get their bus to Wicklow or points south of there it's pretty easy to get out of DL. For those heading north, not so much. There is the DART & suburban trains though, and that has to play a part in the attraction - direct access to Howth - just walk off the boat, into the station and away you go. Or for those heading to points further away there's the suburban trains to the likes of Drogheda, Maynooth, etc . . . again, just steps away from the cruise terminal. I know you're not going to get 2,500 people off the boat and onto a single train, but it opens up options and might even generate new business for CIE - charter trains wouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility.

All in all, as a cruise passenger I would far prefer to see a picture of a ship in DL harbour than one down the docks in Dublin if I was looking at a sales brochure. I know many people won't be as shallow as to base their destination on the images in the brochure, but I'm sure that plays a part . . .

z

Best username ever

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Southsider snobbery.

Perhaps they may want to nip over to Holyhead for a daytrip?

You don't seriously want thousands of tourists getting off in Dublin port do you?

Dunlaoghaire is far more appealing.

the groutch

so how much of this is being paid by a local council which is apparently so broke that it needs a property tax to fund itself?

ted1

the groutch wrote: »

so how much of this is being paid by a local council which is apparently so broke that it needs a property tax to fund itself?

It'll be self funding, spend a buck to make a buck

Cookie_Monster

As for the location, use the current P&O dock in Dublin Port, less than 200m from the Luas, Point etc, not grim port structures. Easy access out south and north of the city by the Toll bridge and Port Tunnel.

Dun Laoghaire can barely cope with traffic as it, adding 30+ coaches every weekend during the summer would grind the place to a standstill very quickly. Cruise liner patrons will want to see sights or shop, neither of which DL can provide in abundance when compared to the city centre and while it may be quicker access out south of the city, it's more limited in a north or west direction for access.

It'll be more expensive the Dublin Port for ships too, a further reason for them not to go there, why do you think Stena and Irish Ferries run their big ships out of Dublin rather than DL, the fees in DL are huge despite all the drawbacks and I don't see them changing for cruise ships over ferries.

Sure it'd be nice to see it happen but I don't think it really adds up for either the cruise lines themselves, the passengers or any taxpayer investment

Tabnabs

There are some assumptions being thrown around in this thread.

Dublin port has the infrastructure of a modern port, however, it's is limited in the size of vessel it can take. They ain't going to widening the liffey anytime soon and this is the major drawback for Dublin. Dun Laoghaire has the advantage of being much wider and ships can swing and manoeuvre with greater ease. Depth is an issue currently, but this is straightforward to relieve.

Cruise passangers tend to get bussed around and either location has a good set up for this. Anyone who has sat in ferry traffic in Dublin Port knows the headache that this can be, so DL has no disadvantage here. In fact, DL has three exits currently so scope for good traffic flow. Wicklow, Glendalough, Avoca, all these areas are much more convenient to DL than Dublin. But there is still reasonable infrastructure into the inner city with Trinity, Grafton Street etc.

The major problem is that DL doesn't have a name in the cruise industry nor does it have the infrastructure or a respected management team in place. And the last point is the crucial one, where I think DL will fall down ultimately. There are too many consultants and nodding dogs involved and no one with vision and ability.

Run_to_da_hills

Glencarraig wrote: »

I can see it now, every scumbag in Dun Laoghaire will converge on the cruise liner berth to prey on the unsuspecting travellers. Muggings, knife threats, robbery and general nastiness will be rife. I can see the pawn shops and the "cash for gold" shops being busy.

You would want to wind your clock 30 or so years forward, Dunlaoghaire has come a long way since. If anything it will be the scumbag opportunists converging from the city center and surrounds. York Road, Dalkey, Glasthule, Mountown, the Farm, Ballybrack and Sallynoggin were were considered the nasty places when I was growing up in the 70's. All these places have all now come around completely, the Garda station at Dalkey is unmanned most of the time which says a lot.

Larbre34

Dalkey Garda Station is unmanned permanently now!

DL may not have a name in the cruise industry now but you have to sell the tour companies a vision. The largest liner in the world Queen Mary 2 is arriving in May and anchoring to disembark its passengers by tender in Dun Laoghaire, not Dublin. That alone is the biggest promo you could ask for. The planned cruise dock in the Harbour will take the largest ships currently in service and the operators will have certainty that they will only take one ship at a time so their customers will have dedicated service

Glencarraig

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You would want to wind your clock 30 or so years forward, Dunlaoghaire has come a long way since. If anything it will be the scumbag opportunists converging from the city center and surrounds. York Road, Dalkey, Glasthule, Mountown, the Farm, Ballybrack and Sallynoggin were were considered the nasty places when I was growing up in the 70's. All these places have all now come around completely, the Garda station at Dalkey is unmanned most of the time which says a lot.

Have a look around the lanes that run from Bloomfields to Mulgrave Street any morning and you will find that nothing changes, empty methadone bottles, syringes and the usual druggie scumbag filth abounds. The Council are in the process of taking those lanes which are not in their control at present into their care, hopefully this might help clean up the place. I am well aware of what areas were and still are bad places as I was born and reared in The Farm when it was a nice place to live and people had respect for each other.

markpb

Larbre34 wrote: »

The largest liner in the world Queen Mary 2 is arriving in May

Unless its arriving from the past, it's certainly not the biggest cruise ship in the world :-) Google Allure of the Seas as an example. It's brilliant to see it coming to Dublin/Dun Laoghaire though!

Tabnabs

Larbre34 wrote: »

Dalkey Garda Station is unmanned permanently now!

DL may not have a name in the cruise industry now but you have to sell the tour companies a vision. The largest liner in the world Queen Mary 2 is arriving in May and anchoring to disembark its passengers by tender in Dun Laoghaire, not Dublin. That alone is the biggest promo you could ask for. The planned cruise dock in the Harbour will take the largest ships currently in service and the operators will have certainty that they will only take one ship at a time so their customers will have dedicated service

A. they have to finance it (not just say they will)
B. They have to get permission to build it (in a very NIMBY location)
C. They have to dredge the seabed to a significant level (with a huge SAC proposed just outside Dublin Bay where they would have previously dumped the spoils)
D. They have to build the dock, on time and on budget
E. They have to actually attract significant ships on a commercially viable basis (Dublin currently has the market pretty well sown up with 90+ visits annually)

Not an easy task.

Big Nasty

I often thought a ferry bringing tourists from DL to Howth and back would be a nice feature.

Time to invest in a ferry?

The_Wrecker

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Dun Laoghaire can barely cope with traffic as it, adding 30+ coaches every weekend during the summer would grind the place to a standstill very quickly. Cruise liner patrons will want to see sights or shop, neither of which DL can provide in abundance when compared to the city centre and while it may be quicker access out south of the city, it's more limited in a north or west direction for access.

It would make more sense to operate a special Dart from platform 3 on PH duties. Hopefully arrivals wont clash with the HSS.

Tabnabs

MCMLXXV wrote: »

I often thought a ferry bringing tourists from DL to Howth and back would be a nice feature.

Time to invest in a ferry?

Too late

http://www.dublinbaycruises.com/

Glen Plake

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why not Dublin Port, when you consider what the CC and Dun Laoghaire have to offer, it's a no brainer to spend the money on Dublin Port rather than the ghost port in the ghost town that DL has become.

For those that have a brain and many of them amongst the two million who have visited DL and walked the pier, enjoyed all the facilities the town has to offer, including the Maritime museum/ Shackelton exhibition etc they will realise the suitability of the beautiful port. What a wonderful vista for a traveller to arrive into.

markpb

Glen Plake wrote: »

For those that have a brain and many of them amongst the two million who have visited DL and walked the pier, enjoyed all the facilities the town has to offer, including the Maritime museum/ Shackelton exhibition etc they will realise the suitability of the beautiful port. What a wonderful vista for a traveller to arrive into.

Very few people visit a port on a cruise because it's pretty - they visit it because of what it has to offer.

Fratton Fred

Let's face it, visitors to Dublin aren't coming for golden beaches or to see herds of wildebeest sweeping across the plains.

Easy access to the city centre or the Wicklow mountains is probably the main objective and dun laoghaire certainly meets these.

zagmund

markpb wrote: »

Very few people visit a port on a cruise because it's pretty - they visit it because of what it has to offer.

People don't visit ports in general, they pass through them en-route to somewhere else.

However, if I had a choice between a cruise which docked at DL and one which docked in the Dublin, I know which I would choose, all other things being equal.

There's no doubt about it in my mind - DL offers a nicer vista while arriving & departing to the general passenger.

z

LordSutch

Can I please have something clarified here.

Will the Queen Mary II actually enter Dun Laoghaire port and be berthed inside the harbour? or will she be
(as I suspect) anchored way off shore, with small craft ferrying passengers/crew to and from the harbour?

Curious.

HeidiHeidi

LordSutch wrote: »

Can I please have something clarified here.

Will the Queen Mary II actually enter Dun Laoghaire port and be berthed inside the harbour? or will she be
(as I suspect) be anchored way off shore, with small craft ferrying passengers/crew to and from the harbour?

Curious.

Anchored off, with tenders bringing passengers in. Not sure where they're going to land them, I know there was talk of temporary (possibly to be made permanent for future business) pontoons, but I never bothered finding out where they were going to put them!

TheVoodoo

They will be be landing on the old coal quay beside traders wharf, where the coaches will be ready and waiting to bring them away. There is a new pontoon there, purpose built for all cruisers.

Fratton Fred

Arriving 8am on Thursday apparently.

Tabnabs

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Arriving 8am on Thursday apparently.

6 am according to Dublin Port (who provide the pilotage and control the waters within the bay) http://www.dublinport.ie/information-centre/next-100-arrivals/

She's currently in Greenock, Scotland and can be tracked here:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?mmsi=310627000&header=true

zagmund

I was down at the coal harbour over the weekend. Please tell me the landing stage they have there is only temporary and is not the result of €15m worth of investment. I had to laugh at two of the signs that were there. One was "Printed an designed" by a well known print shop . . . who apparently don't pay enough attention to proofing their own signs. I can't remember the detail of the other one, but it was on the gate to the boarding area and was something to do with embarkation or permission. I know I'm an old fart and all, but I do think sign writers should check that the signs they are writing are correct.

z

Tabnabs

No that's just a temporary landing stage. The 15m version will effectively cut the harbour in two and allow ships of the size of QM2 to dock in the harbour.

Larbre34

Tabnabs wrote: »

No that's just a temporary landing stage. The 15m version will effectively cut the harbour in two and allow ships of the size of QM2 to dock in the harbour.

I think thats overstating in a bit, page 102 of the doc here shows the overall plan and the scale of the elements including the cruise berth

http://dlharbour.ie/masterplan/masterplan/

Tabnabs

What's that expression, paper never refuses ink?

An interesting little experiment; start up google earth and draw in a ship the full length of the QM2 (not the largest in the world BTW) and you'll see just how economical they are being with that graphic.

In terms of water usage within the harbour, it will very much cut it in two.

Fratton Fred

I presume most will be smaller, but even so, turning something that size in the harbour won't be easy. I guess it will need tugs.

Tabnabs

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I presume most will be smaller, but even so, turning something that size in the harbour won't be easy. I guess it will need tugs.

That's the thing, this is being built to attract the biggest cruise ships. They can't turn in the Liffey, but can go straight in and out and turn outside the harbour in DL. Smaller ships could be accommodated on the current Carlisle Pier (with a bit of reinforcing and proper fendering).

Larbre34

Tabnabs wrote: »

That's the thing, this is being built to attract the biggest cruise ships. They can't turn in the Liffey, but can go straight in and out and turn outside the harbour in DL. Smaller ships could be accommodated on the current Carlisle Pier (with a bit of reinforcing and proper fendering).

Hmm. Itll be bigger than the plan says alright. If you draw an extreme example of a 500m jetty straight out beside the HSS berth, to accommodate a 350m Liner its very long, and itll need to be a good 30m wide to accommodate vehicles. However the West Pier breakwater measures around 350m long itself and thats not particularly obtrusive

The Carlisle Pier has long accommodated passenger ships up to 150m long, no problem there

zagmund

Can someone explain the bit about having to turn *in* the harbour? I know ships are designed to go one direction mostly, but for example the St Columba used to back away from the pier in DL . . . yes, and then turn inside the harbour, but it backed out for sure.

Is the problem to do with hitting open water while going backwards rather than going backwards as such? Is it not feasible for the larger vessels to approach directly, dock, then back out beyond the harbour walls and *then* turn? I'll freely admit I'm not a marine engineer and someone has probably thought of this already, but I'm interested to know why turning in the harbour is a requirement.

z

Tabnabs

zagmund wrote: »

Can someone explain the bit about having to turn *in* the harbour? I know ships are designed to go one direction mostly, but for example the St Columba used to back away from the pier in DL . . . yes, and then turn inside the harbour, but it backed out for sure.

Is the problem to do with hitting open water while going backwards rather than going backwards as such? Is it not feasible for the larger vessels to approach directly, dock, then back out beyond the harbour walls and *then* turn? I'll freely admit I'm not a marine engineer and someone has probably thought of this already, but I'm interested to know why turning in the harbour is a requirement.

z

It won't turn in the harbour if it's sufficiently big and on the new cruise berth. It will back out into the bay where there is miles of room to swing. It's not as simple as turning on the spot, or a three point turn, wind and tide will influence the ease or difficulty in turning. There's also the leisure boat traffic and fishing boats which make life difficult in confined waters. So to get it out into the bay, you give everyone plenty of breathing space.