Get rid of the scrum!

hardCopy

pickarooney wrote: »

Sounds dangerous, like being hit from behind by a Renault 4 20-odd times a game.

I'm pretty sure that's a Golf

toomevara

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Ironically RL scrums back in the day seem to be more of a contest for the ball than RU now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uKFyPRJnw0E

Brilliant, thanks for that. There are a few who want to bring it back in league, but the shenanigans surrounding it in union seriously undermine their case.

P_1

Would the best solution be to get two packs of forwards together and try all the various different ways of fixing the scrum under various different conditions to see what works best?

Kinda like a series of scientific experiments.

neilmulvey

best suggestion i saw was from Neil Francis on setanta a few seasons back. The front 5 pack down and the ref calls power on, at which point the backrows engage and the scrum half has to put the ball in immediately.

The problem with scrums is the hit. As forwards get bigger and bigger, the hit is too powerful for props to bind.

WumBuster

The only answer I can think of without completely turning into league is reduce the number of scrums awarded. Perhaps just to inside the 22 yard line. I think the demand is increasing for more running rugby but we have that with league already which is quite ferocious and unrelentless. This makes it a less attractive sport to watch because its just all about speed and power and less about tactics and more nimble artistry that makes Union a far more fascinating sport, because of the amount of different variables at play.

Risteard

WumBuster wrote: »

The only answer I can think of without completely turning into league is reduce the number of scrums awarded. Perhaps just to inside the 22 yard line. I think the demand is increasing for more running rugby but we have that with league already which is quite ferocious and unrelentless. This makes it a less attractive sport to watch because its just all about speed and power and less about tactics and more nimble artistry that makes Union a far more fascinating sport, because of the amount of different variables at play.

As mentioned before, pro rugby accounts for a very small portion of the rugby playing world.

Rugby is a sport to be played, not just a spectator sport. I know I much prefer playing it than watching.

As for the different variables you mention, the scrum is part of it. What will you do if someone knocks on at halfway or puts a kick off out on the full? Tap and gos. Then you're left with players continually running into brick walls of defenders ala rugby league. Plus the scrum offers team the perfect attacking opportunity by sucking in at least 8 of the opposing team in one place.

All this talk of getting rid of the scrum or reducing its impact drastically is ridiculous. It should be fixed, obviously, but getting rid of it or only designating certain areas where it can take place doesn't address its problems.

The following three points are probably universally accepted as a solution
i) remove the hit
ii) put ball in straight
iii)make props have 'binding flaps' stitched into their jerseys which would make it easier to bind.

Let's hope the IRB act soon, though at this stage it probably won't be after the next WC before something is done.

WumBuster

Risteard wrote: »

As mentioned before, pro rugby accounts for a very small portion of the rugby playing world.

Rugby is a sport to be played, not just a spectator sport. I know I much prefer playing it than watching.

As for the different variables you mention, the scrum is part of it. What will you do if someone knocks on at halfway or puts a kick off out on the full? Tap and gos. Then you're left with players continually running into brick walls of defenders ala rugby league. Plus the scrum offers team the perfect attacking opportunity by sucking in at least 8 of the opposing team in one place.

All this talk of getting rid of the scrum or reducing its impact drastically is ridiculous. It should be fixed, obviously, but getting rid of it or only designating certain areas where it can take place doesn't address its problems.

The following three points are probably universally accepted as a solution
i) remove the hit
ii) put ball in straight
iii)make props have 'binding flaps' stitched into their jerseys which would make it easier to bind.

Let's hope the IRB act soon, though at this stage it probably won't be after the next WC before something is done.

Simple. Award a penalty.Or a free kick into touch thus gaining valuable ground. Dont get me wrong I love a good 'ol scrum as much as anyone, but from a specators point of view they cause too many stoppages in action, often for 2 minutes or longer if it breaks down, which can be quite frustrating. Having a fewer number of scrums in a game inside the 22 would be much more exciting than having lots of them out in the middle.It would keep play happening inside each others 22 a lot more which would be a good thing.
As for the players aspect, I played a bit in my younger days, but there seems to be a conscensus in this forum that anyone who isnt playing the game either currently or recently or not at all, isnt entitled to have an opinion on the game.

Gordon Gecko

I think the "hit" should be eliminated. Have the two packs set up, articulate and then call the push and have the scrum half feed immediately. I'm always gobsmacked watching the old 80s Triple Crown matches on TG4, where the two packs just got down to it without any of the bull surrounding today's scrum.

Also, purely for the craic, I think flankers should be allowed pick and go like back in the day.

pickarooney

Hopefully more people will get on board with this idea. The stats from the Wal-Eng game are ridiculous.
http://gu.com/p/3etcf

durkadurka

If you're interested, Brian Moore is doing a survey to find out fans views on the scrum, with a view to petitioning for reform.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/JDQP362

.ak

TBH I hope the fans don't have a say in it. A bit off topic, but the Aviva and Ireland games are great example of how listening to fans surveys can spoil something. Most fair weather fans would be happy to ditch the scrum all together. But then it's just RL, and whilst RL is great n all we don't need two of the same code.

awec

Instead of fan input they should be taking input from the clubs , who in turn should take guidance from their packs.

pickarooney

Whatever about the fans enjoying or understanding the scrum when the best props in the game haven't a clue what's going on in the scrums they're competing it, something is not right.

Macy0161

P_1 wrote: »

Not too keen on removing the hit, it is a big part of the skill of being a prop forward.

Only (relatively) recently. Look back at games from even the late 90's/ early 00's on youtube where the front rows just kind of flopped into each other. None of this whole pack ready to lunge at the same time - the hit (imo) is the cause, not part of the solution.

desertcircus

The hit needs to be removed completely. It reduces scrums to a brute collision test or a lottery to see which prop ends up on his knees first. As a spectacle, it's near worthless. As a fair restart, it's more or less completely dependent on whether the team with the ball have a tighthead good enough at an absurdly specific task not to cough up a penalty every third scrum. As an exercise in fair refereeing, it's utterly impossible for the ref to spot infringements at the hit on the opposite side of the scrum. It's making the game an objectively worse spectacle, massively prizing an ability absolutely nobody regards as the point of rugby (would you prefer Ireland to have a winger who gets a try a game or a three who never concedes a penalty in the scrum and always maintains parity at least with the opposing loosie? According to salaries, we all want scrums over tries) and in the absence of a clear differential in ability between front rows, reducing the whole thing to a lottery dependent on the ref's whims. Bind up the tight five, get the backrows to pack down, then allow pushing.

Cool_CM

I can't remember the last time that I saw a proper feed at international level. Obviously nobody wants their scrum to go against the head, but do international hookers ever get to actually "hook" anymore or are they just assuming the position for the sake of keeping up appearances whilst the SH bypasses them?

toomevara

Really Excellent/comprehensive article in today's Guardian dealing with this question. Love the opening line..."Q: whats the difference between a rugby league scrum and a rugby union scrum? A: The ball comes out of the former"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/mar/20/props-say-scrum-reform-needed

sydthebeat

As this doesnt seem to be as significant an issue in the super 15, its then obvious that a solution can be found within the current rules as they stand.

so why isnt the same aspects applied here ??

the scrum going 90 and the possession being lost is a major problem, rules wise. It encourages cheating from the props. It encourages crooked drives and unfair pressure on the tighthead which acts honestly. Its not in the interest of the possessing team to wheel the scrum so why penalise them when it happens.

wicklowstevo

the refs at the scrum are ususally shocking , they dont know whats going on most of the time ,
geting rid of it would be a bad idea because it provides a good war for a physically strong team to dominate abd get some god possesion for thier backs , binding is the major problem , i proped for a fairly good collage team for three years and then didnt play for 5 years , went back this year and noticed that no one binds properly or gets low any more ,its just a wrestle between the props.
Honesty in the front row isnt really a issue as the whole idea in there is to get the upper hand however you can , i got smashed by a guy from carlow this year who was hitting early and only countered it by hitting him early . we sorted it out between our selfs and the reff had no idea,

keep the scrum but improve it by all means .

awec

Cool_CM wrote: »

I can't remember the last time that I saw a proper feed at international level. Obviously nobody wants their scrum to go against the head, but do international hookers ever get to actually "hook" anymore or are they just assuming the position for the sake of keeping up appearances whilst the SH bypasses them?

Seems to be the done thing to feed straight in to the second row.

FellasFellas

The main issues surrounding the scrum are the fact that no international referees were forwards or more specifically front rowers. Boring in and going on the outside are just part and parcel of scrummaging so I wouldn't be too worried about that, the problem is stemming from a lot of props just dropping their binds and their knees. And the handle system that is being touted for props jerseys may be a good idea in theory for binding issues, but in practice, the amount of broken fingers etc that would ensue. Can someone clarify the reason for the touch please? Is it to identify the space in between the two front rows? I think a crouch and hold..engage is a calling system that would be far more beneficial to the front rowers. Also, I think the early engagement rule is a bit of a farce, there's often a case for the other team not taking the hit, and two freekicks then penalties and then a potential yellow card is farcical.

sydthebeat

FellasFellas wrote: »

..... there's often a case for the other team not taking the hit, .....

As nigel owens once firmly pointed out... theres no such thing as "taking the hit"

CJC86

Great article by Brian Moore on BBC sport today http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21952652 . He reckons if the laws were applied correctly by the refs, then the scrum wouldn't be an issue. I've always wondered why international refs ignore the "straight feed" and the "no push before the feed" laws.

Armand Tamzarian

Saw this last might and reminded me of this Thread.

http://www.andymcgeady.com/the-most-penalised-players-from-the-heineken-cup-pool-stages/